Time to start a new thread -- this is the story so far:
King of Pain King of Pain, 2 If I Could Change The World... Used To The Pain She'll Think Of Me Walk It Off Winner At A Losing Game Better Now Worried Life BluesDon't Think I Don't Think About It Key to the Highway The song :
One Slip
Pink Floyd
A restless eye across a weary room
A glazed look and I was on the road to ruin
The music played and played as we whirled without end
No hint, no word, her honour to defend
I will, I will. She sighed to my request
And then she tossed her mane while my resolve was put to the test
Then drowned in desire, our souls on fire
I lead the way to the funeral pyre
And without a thought of the consequence
I gave in to my decadence
One slip, and down the hole we fall
It seems to take no time at all
A momentary lapse of reason
That binds a life for life
A small regret, you won't forget,
There'll be no sleep in here tonight
Was it love, or was it the idea of being in love?
Or was it the hand of fate, that seemed to fit just like a glove?
The moment slipped by and soon the seeds were sown
The year grew late and neither one wanted to remain alone
One slip, and down the hole we fall
It seems to take no time at all
A momentary lapse of reason
That binds a life to a life
The one regret, you will never forget,
There'll be no sleep in here tonight...
pretty deep song choice....
are you the first person, or the WAS?
I sometimes wonder which of us, him or I, was the one who just "went with it" at the time (me then, him now).
Thanks to everyone on behalf of my sons.
If anyone is curious I posted some pics on the alternate universe.
W is definitely considering taking me to court now. She's now threatening to eliminate any shared custody. I try to stand up for my rights and obligations, and what is her reaction? To take my rights away altogether?
I can't believe she's going to let her L steer her into such a senseless and wasteful debacle. I am dead certain that the sadly deranged MIL is a serious instigator as well. I have no doubts whatsoever about that. It fits her M-O.
Oh, one thing from this weekend that I forgot to mention. I was driving to Church with my S's on Sunday morning. S8 had begun looking at his student bible for some reason. I was saying something to S4 when S8 piped up to tell me he had just run across a passage concerning D and began reading it aloud to me. It was Matthew 19:1-11.
I about fell out. I was already familiar with that passage (and just about every reference to D in the entire Bible), so I already knew what it referred to, but S8's encounter with this was a wonderful surprise. I know it was no accident that S8 stumbled upon those verses at that particular moment; God was definitely speaking to each of us then.
Hi NC,
Just stopping by to give you a hug and to let you know that you continue to be in my prayers. Pretty amazing about your son finding that passage. If that wasn't divine intervention, then I don't know what is!
Are you the first person, or the WAS?
I'm a LBS. But in reference to the song, I guess I'm the disillusioned voice of these lyrics, expressing the sad cynicism about how love can change a life forever, but that love itself might not last forever. Right now I am deeply regretting having ever gotten involved with my WAW, and I am chalking it all up to a "momentary lapse of reason."
I'm also a long-time Floyd fan.
Thanks, Yoyo. I went with the moment and gave S8 and S4 a bit of interpretation of this passage, explaining that the "hardened hearts" it refers to are hardened against God more than anything else, including the spouse they want to divorce.
When I read the lyrics, I could be the one saying the lines, caught up with what I had.
Or, it could be what happened to X, as he fell into his relationship with the OW, with no thought to the consequences. When I asked the question, I was wondering if you thought it could be stbxw's point of view...
Amazing thing about that passage; I read a good interpretation of it last night when I googled it.
I was wondering if you thought it could be stbxw's point of view
I don't think so, W hasn't truly sobered up from the intoxication of her sins yet. But it
could become her viewpoint...
some day.
I have heard lots of interpretations over the years for this one song. Whether it's about an unwanted pregnancy or STD's or whatever. Personally, I have always considered it to be much simpler/subtle than that -- that it refers to the natural attraction men and women find in each other and how so easily the "in love" feeling can lead us into actions that alter the paths of our lives forever, for both good and bad. I really think it speaks to the dangers of what I now know is called "limmerance", the intoxication of the "in love" feeling. In other words, Lust.
So, yes, it can be applied to these WAS's who commit adultery, whether they care to recognize it or not. But it applies equally to any of us with or without other commitments.
This song has an added, very poignant significance to me in addition. I distinctly remember that song playing on my car's stereo on the second date with W, so many moons ago now. We had just completed a very nice dinner and we had parked in a quiet, secluded parking lot of a baseball stadium, to talk and continue to get to know each other better. When this song came on, I paused in mid sentence saying something to W... I had always loved the song, and it was part of a cassette tape mix I had recorded -- when it came on I couldn't help myself but notice. I pointed it out to W, asking her to listen for a moment (I love Dave Gilmour's work.) And then we continued onward in our convo, obliviously. I was already ensnared by the heady feelings the song speaks of. It was too late for me at that point, and yet the song continues to haunt me, especially now.
I wonder if it was truly a warning I failed to heed.
As I went back and read it again, I still see the interpretation of the WAS's point of view...
she wouldn't defend her honor...
the one regret...with no sleep tonight.
I can imagine the inner turmoil that had to go through these people's minds, at least occasionally. They will never admit it, but they do know right from wrong, and until they could twist things around in their heads to justify it, there had to be moments of, What the hell did I just do?!
The thing is, will they ever come back to see this once they buy into their own justifications, or will they just stick to it, since it hurts less?
My in-laws are better my X stays right where he is right now, forever. He's the kind of person who can never be wrong.
See, I kind of took that line ("her honour to defend") to mean they got married just to make her an "honest woman", so to speak. But it's in the wrong sequence in the song for that. I don't know.
But the sleeplessness mentioned I think we can all sympathize with, as a natural by-product of a R that has failed or is failing.
I'm still not convinced it is exclusively about infidelity or WAS's. I think it speaks to so many R's -- in
general -- that are started under the
pretenses of "love" but are really just excuses for satisfying carnal desires.
I guess because I also see this song as a woeful comment on M and R's in general. But that's just me. A good song like this tends to be open to various interpretations.
The thing is, will they ever come back to see this once they buy into their own justifications, or will they just stick to it, since it hurts less?
It looks to me that too many of these WAS' have had to buy into their own spin and have made their deceit such an ingrained part of their existence -- just to be able to look themselves in the mirror each day -- that they become incapable of really extracting themselves from their own reality distortion fields.
I keep feeling like I am losing ground. This thing with W and her megalomanial desire to wrest fatherly roles from me looks to be a losing battle for me. Teacher's and caregivers were already informed by W, and the arrangements are practically set in stone now. Moreover, I am disheartened by the attitude that they should all automatically defer to the mother and join her in disregarding the father's interests. Is it because we all tend to be biased towards the mother and assume the father is at fault? I have done nothing wrong, effectively, and yet I am being treated like a criminal.
So she has done it again, launching her plans to rearrange our children's lives early enough to make any opposition from me too little too late. She has managed to keep me in the dark until the last possible second to prevent me from taking any effective counter-action. She has already solidified her beachhead and entrenched her position across my boundaries. And since this is the third time in less than a year, she has established a precedent that I can be pushed out of any decision making capacity with regards to our sons.
I can play fair and adhere to respectful, honorable treatment of her position, but she will do anything and say anything to get what she thinks she is entitled to, even if that means disregarding her children's father. I abide by the "rules" of engagement, but she has proven she will use that to only gain advantage.
My attorney seems bewildered that W and her L would be so bold as to not only flaunt their disregard for my consideration regarding our S's welfare but that they would even entertain the idea of taking me to court. They must think they can prove such a horrible image of me that it would justify practically any wrongdoing on their part.
And W's L keeps insinuating I am a deadbeat for not agreeing to pay the higher child support they wrongly calculated, as if I am somehow trying to rob my children by merely defending myself from W's avarice. They have even suggested that I should pay spousal support (alimony), in total neglect of the overriding fact that W is guilty of adultery and criminal conversation.
Maybe they're "shooting for the moon" and this is all just standard legal posturing. But even were they to be totally shot down in court, I fear the terrain for co-parenting will have become so scorched and made toxic that it will become nigh impossible and our S's would suffer.
Oh, crap. I hate L's that are so combative...
You may have to look into a child guardian, or some other such separate party, to look after the kids' interests. The guardian would have to be paid, and that cost is usually shared by both parties (not sure if you can prove that she pushed you into that measure and have her responsible to pay the costs)...
From her position, I can't imagine her being able to get away with more than 50% of the time and shared agreements for custody and major decisions. You are right; she is the one with the adultery, and the judge will take that under consideration. It doesn't automatically go to the mother's anymore.
I'm sorry...you are right. Do you think she would go to co-parenting "training" with you - again, the 3rd party might be able to hold more sway in that...
I think your W is digging her grave. I was advised by my C and my L that 2 things you have to be careful for as a parent when they are looking to determine custody is allowing free access to the children with visits and calls, etc, and making decisions with the co-parent rather than on your own. I'm thinking she is kind of helping to build a case that you would be better as a primary guardian from the kind of stuff you are saying. What does your L say about that?
Karen
Do you think she would go to co-parenting "training" with you - again, the 3rd party might be able to hold more sway in that...
I have tried that before with W, several times. I even arranged for a well-regarded family psychologist almost exactly one year ago, one who offered parenting skills training, and met one-on-one with him in preparation -- but W wants absolutely nothing to do with me in that regard. I should have taken the hint then, especially when she said she cannot bear to even be in the same room with me, let alone doing anything to help bridge the gap between us. When I offered to start these sessions separately, she shot that down too. She said that
I could go ahead for just myself, since I was apparently (in her opinion) in
need of psychological help, but she herself needed no such help with
her parenting skills.
Of course, in retrospect, this was but days before her highly documented rendezvous with OM in a local hotel (I got evidence from a P-I that I had hired) -- so the last thing on her mind was getting along with her spouse when she's lined up a major encounter with her affair partner.
I later offered again, back in May, to try to work some form of middle ground out between us and to get the outside support we need to cooperate for the sake of our children. I shed a few tears when she turned my olive branch down yet again -- and she even responded to that by threatening to call the police if I did not leave then and there. I guess she got angry because her conscious started coming to life at that point. Can't have that, can we? That's when I decided it was best to just drop the rope altogether. There has been no talk from me since that point about trying to salvage this M, even if that might be best for our children. I am now only concerned for my children and their R with me.
Now that our L's are suggesting that W and I seek a parenting coordinator and/or parenting skills training, suddenly she's listening (or giving the appearance she might entertain the idea for once.) If the idea comes from me she will reject it completely out of hand. Otherwise it remains to be seen if she decides to take the suggestion or not.
Unless W's L tells her it is imperative for appearances sake to try to work something out with her H, my W is not very likely in the end to go with any such outside help that involves me. And since her L appears to want to engage in more conflict than what is truly in the best interests of her client, I doubt W's attorney will truly encourage the effort anyway.
I'll hold the offer out there still, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
Karen,
I can only surmise that W has built up such a huge facade of lies and self-deception -- of the WAS-type delusional variety that we all have had to endure -- that she has managed to convince her L, her family, friends, neighbors and caregivers for our children of this insane fantasy. If I don't submit to W's terms for unconditional surrender, I am somehow this horrible evil person for standing in the way of her "happiness" -- in fact, in her mind, that makes me into this abusive, psychologically-torturous monster who deserves her continual acts of betrayal, alienation and deceit. All because I don't surrender complete control over to her megalomania.
I can sense the storm clouds of this insanity brewing -- they want to stick it to me in every way possible, to nullify my fatherhood but still bind me monetarily to their decisions regarding my S's lives and well-being. I am still to be obligated to serving as W's meal-ticket and pack animal, but to have no custody and have no say in the matters effecting me or my S's. To remove my ability to parent my children whilst still gouging me for both child support and alimony can only be described as slavery. There is no other word for it.
I am also 100% certain that the evil MIL has put in her two cents -- even to point of being willing to purger herself in testifying against me, if it comes to that. If it goes to trial, I can bank on it. Why a judge would give any credence to the the testimony of such a untrustworthy person with a vested interest monetary at that) in screwing me over, I don't know. But they will lie, cheat and steal -- they have proven that already.
My L has said nothing directly to me about these matters as yet. Until she does I worry that she has "blinked" at the degree of W's resolve.
Sadly, the system is most definitely stacked against fathers like myself. And I guess I should not be surprised. I just have to persist despite this... for the sake of my children.
Silly question at this time, but have you been documenting everything that you have offered and she has declined? You need to fight her right back to have the time you and your boys so rightly deserve.
kat
I thought NC was one of those states that punished OM with alienation of affection and penalised cheaters in court?
Silly question at this time, but have you been documenting everything that you have offered and she has declined?
No, not a silly question. I suppose I have this about as documented as I can. I have maintained a journal of sorts. And I can produce email evidence of W's responses.
I thought NC was one of those states that punished OM with alienation of affection and penalised cheaters in court?
Yes, these laws are still on the books. NC is one of the few states that still has a law against Alienation of Affection and a law against Criminal Conversation (read: adultery). But I gather that most lawyers refrain from pursuing either of them. I guess the hurdles needed to prove a case are so high and the outcome so indeterminate that they almost never consider them now unless the plaintiff stands to get a huge monetary payoff from the defendant -- so I guess it is now only considered if the offender has wealth to be mined.
And since NC is also a "No-fault" state for D, there is very little advantage in that regard either for pursuing one of these additional charges. It's sad really that modern values have deteriorated to such an extent. These laws were created to help protect the family and to help protect children, by discouraging both infidelity and predatory adulterers. Now they are left unenforced.
In my own case, my L has said that the
threat of one of these suits might could be used as merely a
bargaining chip should we wind up in court, nothing more. That was some time ago now, almost a year ago when we last mentioned this subject. I can't say I was all that encouraged by my atty's lack of enthusiasm for such a case; I'm even a bit disappointed. I trust she has weighed the odds and is advising me where to better focus my energies. But with W now making moves towards litigation, it may be time for me to remind my L about these additional cards with which we could deal.
I think that's true of a lot of our WAS. If we don't agree to what we want or we bring some reality to the table, we are seen as being horrible. But we all know that's not true.
Your W and my H have threatened legal and custody stuff, but that doesn't mean it will happen. My H was trying for primary custody, but I don't really even think he wants it, or will get it. Lots of bluster, but doesn't mean anything to the judge. In our state at least, most of child custody and everything seems to be all arranged according to formulas, and you will have your fair share of custody basically unless you beat your child and/or really unfit (I've been told).
I think you are focusing too much on your W and MIL, and not on you and your boys. Let your L take care of the legal stuff, and if she's not then get another L! Let God take care of your other worries. I had gotten so busy I hadn't read the bible in a week or 2, and am returning to reading it daily and it brings so much peace to me. Exercise helps me. And I still take ADs and plan to at least through the D and maybe a little after. I put a little time each week or try to for me to have some fun. They just opened a new coffee shop in town, my small town finally has our own overpriced coffee!!! But I'm psyched to go there and visit and bring a book and want to try to do that maybe once a week. Do lots of fun stuff with your kids.
I do think you are kind of in a similar sitch to mine where things will get much better for you in time. (((((NC))))))
I think you are focusing too much on your W and MIL, and not on you and your boys. Let your L take care of the legal stuff, and if she's not then get another L! Let God take care of your other worries.
Thanks, Karen, you're absolutely right. I
know better than to let W get me down like this. And I know to give this all over the the Lord and to turn my focus onto my S's. But every now and then I
still get distracted by the senseless drama... Even though I think I am getting better it manages to sneak up on me.
Remembering to just be thankful is always going to be a struggle for me, being the natural pessimist that I am, and so I truly appreciate the reminder.
Thanks.
I spoke too soon. It's all starting to get to me. This was one h*ll of a day. My employer is going through some serious "workforce reductions" -- lots of people are being let go. It touched our division today and it unnerved quite a number of us to see several people, some with a lot of seniority, let go. Several middle and lower level managers as well as rank-n-file employees. My department appears safe -- for now. Another round of layoffs could still be headed our way. Not good, not good. I feel so bad for all these people. And it may not be over yet.
Yes, a bad day indeed.
On top of that I am also feeling a great deal of anxiety from W as well. We had another argument last night. She grilled me about the list of items from our residence (now sold) that my L was wanting to make sure was covered. W got very ugly and snippy with me. The hypocrisy was enough to drive anyone mad, but her condescending attitude and her presumptuous sense of entitlement was sickening. And she now insists that she will not be "giving" to me any share in the custody of our S's. I realize that she really doesn't have any grounds to support her desire to rub me out of our S's lives, but nevertheless I did not sleep well because of her words and behaviors.
Today, despite having some time to reflect on this, I am still so distraught and anxious. I am so upset with W and how she is behaving towards me, with such venom and such deep-seated contempt, that I can't bear to see or hear from her anymore. I won't go into details just yet about some of the many things said between us, but have about reached the limits of my patience. I am now at the point where I am actually welcoming her divorce and am in fact very impatient to just get this over with, so I can carry on with my healing and grow into the person God wants me to be.
Forgive me, Lord, for now I also want to lay my vows to one side. W has become too vitriolic, toxic and vindictive -- exactly like her mother. I don't want her, not this nasty, mean-spirited and selfish person, no longer. I can't help this M if she won't try and even works to undermine it. Her threats to take the kids away are too much.
I have repeatedly asked myself this question: Were W to suddenly and miraculously come to her senses, repent of her sins against me and our family and tell me she wants to work on our R, would I take her back?
Certainly in the first year of our separation I would have said yes, with little reservation. Since last summer, however, I have recognized it would just not work unless W showed the right degree of contrition and an earnestness to work hard on the R.
But since this latest conflict over our S's daycare and all the ancillary skirmishes that arose around that, I must now conclude that even if she were to do everything under the sun to make amends, even getting down on her knees and begging me (not that that appeals to me), I know now it would never work. I hate to say it, but there has been far too much damage. I could forgive her and I will/do forgive her, but I can NEVER ever trust her again. It will always be in the back of my mind that she could suddenly have her switch flipped yet again, that she might change her mind about our R yet again. I can't and I won't subject myself to that again.
In a way I do still love her despite all the evil she has done. And were she to decide to want to reconcile, I sadly recognize now it is too late. We might could possibly reconcile to a degree where we might raise our S's together in good faith, and I would want that. And though my heart would want to restore the M too, my mind and my very soul now know that our M is over and will never work again.
I believe this has been the conscious or subconscious intent of the evil she does to me now, to destroy whatever chance there might have been for us to reconcile. Well, if so, she won.
I am now far off the DB reservation, by no longer wanting to save my M. I still don't want a D, but if things have to be the way they are, then I want to get it over with.
NCB--
WHY are you still talking to her at all? It isn't bringing any resolution or peace. Each time is an instance for her to attack you; you either have to go on the defensive or roll over. Break the cycle - don't answer the phone. Let it go to voicemail. She will be more hesitant to spew if she knows she is being recorded. Ask her to email you - again, it is documented.
You don't have to engage with an abusive person. Some might say to hang up when she gets talking, but that can be seen as passive-aggressive. Better not to even give her the chance to start.
I have been "co-parenting" with my X for more than 7 months through email; it has been rare that we have spoken on the phone, and even then, not more than a few sentences about the kids. And I can sleep at night.
He still spews occassionally in the emails; I archive it and never look at it again. If he wants to live his life in an angry hell, that is his choice. I don't have to.
So sorry that you have to deal with this - talk with your lawyer again...
WHY are you still talking to her at all?
I don't know. An exchange between W and I starts out on "business-like" terms, but it is always a mine field. One word or or mention by either me or her triggers an attack by her -- it seems sometimes she has this pathology that drives her to reestablish the hostilities, as if the lack of conflict between us might mean she is betraying the worldly value system she now clings to.
My motivations are for some misguided notion of peace and cooperation for the sake of our children. But she baits me so easily. And if I attempt to pull myself out of the confilct before it ensues, she will accuse me of being passive-aggressive. I am d*mned either way in her mind -- so why bother?
Yes, it would be better to just not deal with her directly ever again. But I worry about what that would demonstrate to my sons, seeing their father also avoid confronting the difficulties in life. Still that might be better than seeing how their mother and father cannot get along.
((((NC)))),
I agree with Donna, avoid her all you can. Take care of it over email. I believe it's better for the boys not to know what is going at all. You don't have to confront conflict in front of them to show them that you are strong father. They know that already. Be the loving and supportive parent that they so deserve. Let them be little boys. They are having to grow up way too quickly because of the mess your wife has created. If your wife does try to start conflict with you in front of the boys, walk away from her and tell her that you will address the situation in an email. Do not let her suck you in with the boys around.
Hugs, Yoyo
Yes, Yoyo, I have learned that it is best to not engage her in anything unless it is absolutely necessary. But the consequence of this is already manifesting itself.
When I picked up my S's this evening to start my week with them, I was cordial but aloof. I even refrained from stepping into her apartment, staying just outside the door. I have determined there is no reason for me to have to even enter her apartment, let alone let her drag me into her drama anymore. From the very minute I got there she was giving me instructions about the care of the boys, as if I was an ignoramus or an inexperienced servant. I let it slide and focused on my S's instead.
She will call me cold and heartless, and accuse me again of having Asperger's. I don't care anymore. I was kind and friendly, but I was obviously not going to let her draw me in again. I'm done. She has been abusive of my good will and spurned any of my attempts at civility, let alone friendliness. So, smack me with a 2 x 4 if you want, but I've already wasted too much energy at trying to be magnanimous.
When I got home with my S's I later found she had sent two emails -- a different one to two separate email accounts I have. Very weird and confusing, but nothing she does makes any sense anymore.
The first one was a re-iteration of all her many "commands" to me for caring for our sons, as if I enjoy being patronized twice in one evening. She ended that one with this quip,
I am on-call this weekend so my calling the boys times & phones may vary. Please keep your snide ugly comments to yourself & I promise to do the same & my mom vows to say nothing snide or negative about you & not respond or take personally the snide things the boys regurgitate from you that hurt her so much before, for their sake, to protect & shield them.
Such a winning personality she has... and I am so thrilled by how she accuses me of the very crime she and her mother are guilty of, maligning the other parent in front of our S's.
Then she followed up an hour later with an email complaining of the list of items from our family home I am seeking, mostly stuff for our S's to have over at my place when they are with me. She said...
I told my lawyer to proceed with litigation to finalize the divorce & let the judge decide these irreconcilable issues about child support, custody & property settlement. You have had ample time & I'm sick of being jerked around. I can't wait to tell a judge you wanted the kids hot wheels track.
I forwarded all her rants to my atty., explaining that I feel this new level of venom coming from W is spurred on with the return of the evil MIL.
((((((NC)))))) Love the song..
Sorry I haven't been around. I wanted to stop in to give you a hug. She is completly out of control. I hope the judge sees right through this. Your boys need you, its not about HER anymore, its about there relationship with you.
As much as I might be mad or angry at H, I would never ever use that as a threat. They need there father, and it doesn't matter what our relationship is, Kids need both parents in their lives. She is using them as a pawn, and that boils my blood.
Hang in there, stay with it, and like yoyo said, have as much limited interaction with her as possible. Its not healthy for you, to hear those things over and over again. Don't give her the opportunity. If you have to speak to her on the phone for something, state facts, and thats all. If she starts with you, I would just politely say, I will not let myself be subjected to this anymore. Have a nice day, and hang up. I know its hard not to fight back BELIEVE me, im a fighter, but this is a never ending battle with her and her posion.
You can always email me in the alt. universe... thinking of you, take care.
NC....wow, she is even putting it down on paper, hmm? Is there a trusted friend who could read her emails for you and just give you any real info that you need from them? I wouldn't want to look at these for even an instant.
Good on you for forwarding them to your L.
My X picks the kids up from the driveway. How old are the kids, could they come out to you?
I had to go into no contact, because the contact was making me so sick and heartbroken.
It seems like the more guilt they have, the worse they feel about themselves, the worse they lash out and try to treat us.
Turn all your attention to the kids, and hang in....
No emailing back. You are doing AWESOME at disengaging while you are in her presence. Next step, no email chit chat about the relationship. If she puts 3 paragraphs in an email about how awful you are, then asks you to pick up the boys on Monday, you answer back "I will be happy to pick the boys up on Monday".
I think you should forward those emails to your lawyer.
NCB-
An option to get her to quit sending such hatefull e-mails:
Respond to her and cc your attorney, so she can see their address in the header. Maybe that would get her to quit.
You have some great posts already, NC, what they said! I do think there is a plan that is working out in your life and also your W's if she will let it. Things will work out for the best for you and your sons. ((((NC)))))
It sounds like you're doing great! Do not go into the apartment (reminds me for some strange reason of those horror movies where the people go into the scary psycho house for some bizarre reason!) good job on the forwarding the email and I like mc's idea re: that too. The more you can NC, just trying to do emails and like lwb suggested just responding to the good stuff, the better it will be for you and your sons. And I think even your W will regret some of the ugly stuff she has done in time. Karen
Thanks, everyone,
I have been debating whether I should even give W any reply anymore, let alone what that response would be. I am certain she is cataloging my prior responses to make me out to be manipulative and controlling.
MC, I have blown through my sizable retainer already, almost entirely through billable hours accrued by the few emails I've exchanged with my L. But I'll up the ante and feed a little more of W's nastigrams along to my atty, for a little while more at least.
I have written lots of potential responses, but have only filed them away. I keep thinking that nothing will make a difference anyway, and it would be better not to feed her drama, ... or taint my soul any further by stooping to her level. I worry that I might someday regret not taking more direct action, especially if she manages to somehow convince a judge that I am the villain she makes me out to be and that ends up neutralizing my ability to parent. I just don't trust our legal system to come to the right or just decisions in this.
Right now the thing that has me galled is that W has told me I now have to, in effect, report into the wicked MIL what the precise times I will be picking up and dropping off my sons at her place each day. I am the father here and yet I am being treated as subservient to her hostile, evil mother.
At least I have been having a good weekend with S8 and S4. The weather has been fantastic (too bad our bike rides were curtailed by S8's blasted malfunctioning rear hub. We've had fun outdoors nonetheless.)
Right now the thing that has me galled is that W has told me I now have to, in effect, report into the wicked MIL what the precise times I will be picking up and dropping off my sons at her place each day. I am the father here and yet I am being treated as subservient to her hostile, evil mother.
Why would you need to do that? H and I email each other about stuff like that, pickup times and schedules and activities and that. Maybe you could email your W with the info she wants, and if your W wants to share it with MIL, let her pass it on or do what she wants with it?
I try not to give any replies unless necessary, sometimes he wants a yes or no or something and I do that. I try to make it businesslike and professional and polite, but will admit to occasionally throwing in a little of my trademark trying to be funny stuff. Can't help it, who I am, but I have totally stopped with the smiley faces at least (to H).
Karen
Karen, W is plain and simply a control-freak. This is what it all boils down to. She gets her jollies just bossing others around.
<journaling>
It was a year ago that I got the solid proof from the P-I of W's A being a PA. The part about it that is the most unbelievable is that we are still not D'ed -- this time last year I would have sworn she would have filed looong before now. And still to this very day she wants to try to deny there is/was ever an A.
The part about it that is the most unbelievable is that we are still not D'ed -- this time last year I would have sworn she would have filed looong before now. And still to this very day she wants to try to deny there is/was ever an A.
I can't believe I'm still married either. If you had told me I was going to have to go through this for prob. about 2 years before it would be over, I would have told you no way could I get through this. But I have, and actually I'm happier than I've been in years. Weird!
Well, I don't know what's worse, a WAS denying their A or like in my case, where my H kind of flaunted it!!! Both are pretty bad. Wacky WAS!!!
Karen
I got word from my atty today. W's L contacted her to state their latest stance. W now wants me to only have the track-out periods with S8 except for one week each year (so she can take them on a vacation with her). W claims she wants to have all of the tracked-in/school nights with the S's, implying I am incompetent to help my children with school.
That means that I would have them less than 25% of the year. As my L put it, that would be "moving backwards" with regards to my time with my sons.
I am trying to fathom the grounds upon which any sane person would think that appropriate.
I also suspect that the MIL is also ready to testify in a custody hearing -- I gather that she is sending messages to W's L claiming she has first hand knowledge of how terrible a person I am and thus unfit to raise my S's. Or at least that's the tone I am gathering from the email W's L sent my atty.
It is sad that so many people think nothing of perjuring themselves.
...
Thinking about this is staggering...
I had a coworker ask me today how could someone be that evil towards their spouse. I nodded my head and said what I think she was thinking, "Yes, it hardly seems credible, don't it? That someone can do all these things, someone seemingly so nice and innocent... It's what I've been trying to get my mind around since the second she announced she was leaving me, and I still haven't been able to reconcile it in my own mind."
What my co-worker had said, though, the word "evil", has stuck with me ever since then. Yes, sadly, there is no other word that can be adequate enough to describe the repeated and willful treachery I have had to witness. Evil, just so evil...
How can someone live with themselves like that? How?
evil is right. And prob since she got this train of hate going full speed she is in "destroy him" mode and hasnt sat down and ask herself "is the the best for the kids/all involved?" maybe it is too late to act human for her and doesnt' want to open the possibility that perhaps she isnt' doing the right thing.
Hope your L refutes that stupid schedule, prayers your way))
She is ridiculous. She is going to get worse, I fear. I am so glad you are legally represented. Make sure your attorney knows you won't settle for less than 50/50 custody.
Thinking of you. Stay strong for your boys.
I agree with lwb. I wouldn't worry about the MIL testifying. She sounds kind of nutty and I'm thinking, most people will dismiss what she would say as being biased, and she sounds a little nutty so I'm thinking that might even help you!
About the evil thing. I've thought about that too. Why when my H left the marriage and took up with OW, and abandoned his kids for the most part, would he be so nasty & rude to me? You'd think after the kind of stuff our S do that at least they'd be nice about it!!! I can't really say b/c I don't really understand their thinking, but I'm thinking they kind of have to believe you're the bad guy in this and they're the victim, b/c they def. don't want to think they're the bad guy in this. It's your fault the marriage fell apart, there was nothing they could do, it just happened, and it's easier to blame us than to look at themselves maybe.
One of our mutual friends told me tonight that H hadn't talked to him for a really long time, was acting very cold, but a couple days ago was friendly to our friend for some reason. Said he was surprised. I can't explain this kind of stuff either!!!
Karen
Thanks, cat, Lwb,
I have another telephone conference with my L tomorrow about this. I also know that W is now getting ready to file a motion for D. I'm not worried about that any longer, in fact given all the h*ll this limbo has given me, I am ready to say
bring it.
<journaling>
Tonight W called after 8 PM. Her call came in on the Caller-ID as "PRIVATE CALLER" -- this has been happening a lot lately and I see it as her being annoyingly obvious that she is calling from OM's phone. All other phones show up as a particular known number. So I almost didn't pick up again -- for all I know these could have been calls from unwanted solicitors.
Tonight she got a bit perturbed when I told her she was coming in as a private caller again. She responded, "Yeah, so what?!?"
I simply replied, "So, don't do that!" and handed the phone to S8.
After the call she sent me a nastygram via email:
Please don't ever prevent me from talking to my sons. (I think you put that in the sep agreement. Which you should have signed when you had the chance). You don't own me. They know who it is (I heard S8 screaming on my answering machine the last time you played that silly "I don't know who it is because it says private caller" game. You know who it is if it is near 8 pm. You only hurt the boys by not answering. They don't care how my number shows up. They just need to know they are cherished. That is why I call.
Thank you,
W
She was punching/hammering my buttons again, yes.
I sent this reply:
You know you really need to lighten up.
You most certainly screen your own calls against strangers, but you still think you can dictate to me that I cannot do the same? I have been trying to teach S8 that we do not answer calls from people we do not know, as per the cub scouts achievements for safety and security, but you want to abrogate that because you refuse to call from one of the two known portable phones in your possession? Get over yourself.
It's simple -- don't try to contact us using stranger's phones.
After everything she's put us through and continues to do so, I am starting to hate her. God help me.
I understand you wanting to teach the kids safety with the phone. I do the same with the girls, they aren't allowed to answer the phone unless they recongnize the caller on Caller ID.
Teeny tiny 2 X 4....
I think (don't hate me) you should let the caller ID thing go with your wife. So many WAS don't even want or care enough to say goodnight to their kids, I am thankful my xH does it, and I think you should be too.
OM is scum. W is out of her mind to pick him over you. W broke her vows, and continues to drag you down with her needlessly. This I know. I am on your side.
But...this says it all...
They just need to know they are cherished.
They don't care where she calls from, just that she calls. I know it stucks. Believe you me, I know, xH has called the girls to tell them goodnight from numerous places that made me want to scream.
Still love me?
Always, lady.
Your point's well taken. I should be thankful she cares enough to call.
But she
does need to get over herself. She is no longer the paragon of motherly virtue she pretends to be. Her little comment that you quoted, "They just need to know they are cherished" is just a trite
platitude ...but one meant also as a backhanded accusation that I, by contrast, do
not cherish our children, that only she can.
Oh she truly does need to get over herself. I fully agree!!! And yep, she has lost the 'doing the best for the kids' card a long time ago.
Oh she truly does need to get over herself. I fully agree!!! And yep, she has lost the 'doing the best for the kids' card a long time ago.
She says that but if you look at her actions, it's doing the best for me and the kids come second." I agree with LWB, if she's calling at around the appointed time then I would just let it slide. But if she calls at other times, go screen away.
Oh, I was thinking another reason for the "evil" attitude they have is, well like in my case at least, I think my H seems me as an obstacle to his being happy. I'm keeping him from having a happy life with OW, paying alimony/child support will hamper his fun and vacations with OW, and he wishes I would just disappear so he could be 100% happy. I have to admit that I've had thought like that about him at some low points, tho I try not to, and I act as polite as can be, take the high road, etc. even if sometimes the thoughts I have!!!
Karen
Hey NC,
I just wanted to let you know that I'll be in your brother's part of the state tomorrow night. DD17 has to cheer at the basketball game against your brother's kids' school. Wish you were there also.
Hugs, Yoyo
That's cool, Yoyo! I wish I could be there too. Very much.
My beautiful and wacky niece plays clarinet in the H.S. band and is on the swim team. I miss them all a lot. I would love to see my nieces and nephew ...and meet you and your family too.
Insane day today... an insane evening last night... you'd have thought the moon was full this weekend instead of last weekend.
W has been having a fit over the list of items I put in a formal demand now that our house has been sold (last November). The list was relayed via the L's. It lists things like a couple of extra kitchen chairs placed in storage and a whole slew of toys, clothing and other gifts given to our sons by me and my side of the family. W has been castigating me thoroughly, trying to make it sound like I was robbing our children, when the reality is that they have been hoarded over at W's place by piecemeal -- items like stuffed animals and other cherished favorites have been flowing out of my place and never returning from W's.
But W is treating me like a monster for suggesting that the items given to our sons by my family and friends reside here instead. Oh, yes, it's all contrived, I know. She is trying to build a propaganda campaign to demonize me before everyone.
And she has the gall to say I am depriving my S's of the Wii. S8 had a fair week, but not a great week at school, and the rule was he had to have a good week before he would be allowed to play on the Wii on the weekend. So she had S8 all in a lather about the possibility of not getting to play the game system, and that I was being too hard-nosed and strict. At the same time she wants to imply I was a bad parent for rewarding our S's for having an exemplary day earlier in the week and completing all their responsibilities, by playing a game on a "school night".
Last evening I was not feeling well and had gotten home late from work, so I told S8 over the phone that I would pack up the Wii and bring it down this morning but not that very night.
Much as I am despising W for her overreaching entitlement to a game system I gave to my S's this past Christmas, and to make it sound like she's doing it solely for their benefit alone, not just to "stick it to me" yet again, I made good on my promise to deliver the Wii this morning.
If I never see that gift again either, I don't care. This is not about stuff as she wants to accuse me of. It's about the principles of fairness, decorum and civility. It's about right and wrong and about what's best for our children.
There have been a lot of heated emails today between us because of these issues. I can guarantee she's going to try to use whatever I have said against me in a court of law, should she make good on that threat. But I am tired of her allowing the evil blackness that has pervaded her heart to lead to such abusive and nasty behaviors. I am not backing down anymore, my back's already against the wall, and if I should happen to lose my kids over this (God forbid), then I will be able to at least face them in the eye some day.
I'll be glad when this stage of the process is over with.
But as for the list of items, whatever. I got a few of them back from W already, and I'm not going to die if I don't get them all back any how. As I told W in one of the emails today, her conniption fit over these items just proves to me how materialistic and petty she has become, not to mention willing to exploit her own children in an attempt to harm me further.
But as for the list of items, whatever. I got a few of them back from W already, and I'm not going to die if I don't get them all back any how. As I told W in one of the emails today, her conniption fit over these items just proves to me how materialistic and petty she has become, not to mention willing to exploit her own children in an attempt to harm me further.
I have the opposite problem. D9 has hundreds of toys and stuffed animals and H gets her new ones every weekend. I wish she would have more toys over there, but he hauls them back every time. I think it's probably a good idea to have half at each location, although I know D9 always has one favorite she has to have with her all the time that needs to be moved. I think most kids have too many toys anyway, I had like a dozen when I was growing up and a good access to library books and I was fine with that. The only thing is if she is taking most of their toys instead of leaving half with you, maybe limit them taking some or most of their toys over to her house so they don't disappear. Couldn't you even explain to your boys that you want them to have half their toys at each house. My kids are pretty good at understanding stuff is there's a reason.
I think your Wii punishment sounds like ones I do. I deprive S15 of computers and video games also when there is a reason. I always give a warning, but don't feel bad if I have to do that. It's the perfect punishment, really painful to S15, but really depriving them of computer & video games is probably good for them occasionally.
Personally, I think you should make the rules in your house and W shouldn't have anything to do with them. She shouldn't be making rules in your house or you making rules in her house. Esp. since she kind of sounds like a control freak. Unless it's a safety issue or something dangerous, which I don't think Wii would count! I am bummed that my H lets S15 play adult-rated violent games like Halo at his house which he knows he will never do at mine! And he has OW over there with the kids all the time. I'm just hoping having one decent parent will be enough!!!
Karen
As I told W in one of the emails today...
Hey mister! I thought we were down to 'business/kids' talk only with the W. At least that's what *I* agreed for YOU to do...lol...
She's a big old mess, but YOU don't have to be. You can choose to better yourself, pick yourself up (even if it means with meds temporarily) and move on with your life. Don't let her drag you down, don't let her talk you into being the person she thinks you are, because you are not that person. You are much much better than that, solid gold actually. Don't let her view of you skew your own view of yourself.
Esp. since she kind of sounds like a control freak.
Gee, yah
think?!?
I'm just funnin' yah, Karen.
Seriously, STBXW is most definitely plague with being a control-freak, though she insists she's not. Our MC even told her in a private session with her that that was the one thing she really needed to get a handle on. Imagine that -- a control-freak not having control over themselves.
As for kids having too many toys these days, I can only agree. That's partly why I agreed to S8's Christmas wish for a Wii, so that it would consolidate a lot of their gifts into a single big one. And I have tried not to characterize withholding the dame system from my S's as a punishment, per se, but that they have to
earn the privilege to have play time with it. A carrot versus a stick, so to speak.
I worry that STBXW is getting confused herself and allowing her disproportionate sense of entitlement infect my sons, such that they think they are automatically
owed time on the Wii by default. She used to be far more sensible in those areas than myself, but all this hullaballoo about my legal list of items has me concerned.
And I am also hoping that having one decent parent is enough -- and this ever building panic I feel for my S's, because STBXW is making motions to minimize that one decent parent in my case, is not really helping matters. I need to relax.
Hey mister! I thought we were down to 'business/kids' talk only with the W.
Yeah, I
know. I can't seem to let her crazy-arsed assertions go unchallenged. That's due to the needless panic I feel now that STBXW is trying to take me out now.
It's not the view of myself that I worry about being skewed; it's that she and the toxic MIL are going to gang up on me in court to try to skew a judge in seeing it their way.
I just need to prepare what I can and not worry myself about those things I am not in control of. I need to let go and let God. I need to live by that philosophy, even as hard as that seems now. I need to shake this pessimism and realize that even in the worst case, God will work something out for the better.
I admit that I am indeed scared now for me and my sons. But I need to think like Yoda now -- "
Fear is the path to the dark side: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
What can you do to actively address your fears? It isn't engaging with the stbx....
can you get your ducks in a row to help? If she is lining up the MIL as a "character witness," can you get one in your favor?
What can you do to actively address your fears? It isn't engaging with the stbx....
can you get your ducks in a row to help? If she is lining up the MIL as a "character witness," can you get one in your favor?
I think it's standard to have these witnesses. My L asked me to give her 2, and I gave her my pastor's wife who's also a friend and our TKD instructor who also attends my church. To me it's telling that her character witness has to be a relative. I think it's prob. better to have non-relatives really, less of that family bias and all that I would think.
My H had threatened in the early court docs and you know just telling me that I might lose the kids, but seriously I've been told by everyone that unless you're basically a criminal or something that doesn't happen. I think you should let the fear go. It's going to work out like it should. BTW, I think my H has way backed off that stuff too, I think some of it is just bluffing and threats to scare us into submission or they're hoping that anyway. Karen
What can you do to actively address your fears? It isn't engaging with the stbx....
can you get your ducks in a row to help? If she is lining up the MIL as a "character witness," can you get one in your favor?
I guess the thing that bothers me is that the court systems are already biased against the husbands in custody cases. Even though shared parenting is starting to catch on in a lot of places, still most people think fair the so-called "traditional" arrangement where the father is allowed visitation only every other weekend, with an occasional day in the middle of the week thrown in. That amounts to about 78 days a year -- throw in a two week vacation and you're at the ceiling of 92 days per year. How can anyone seriously think that children can be properly fathered with so little quality time?
But with the decks already stacked against fathers as it is, I had to be an idiot and allow the toxic MIL to live in my home for the 8 months prior to the bomb. MIL has already lied to W -- absolute bold-faced lies unmistakable in their intent -- about me before, and I have absolutely no doubt MIL will lie before a judge and slander me publicly. I am not worried so much about my own reputation as much as MIL succeeding in coloring a judge's decisions to where shared custody is going to be seen as impossible.
On top of that, I know they are going to take this as their opportunity to attack my retirement funds and my 401k -- and I will be forced to do the same against STBXW. After the both of us have raided each other's meager savings, we're both going to be wiped out -- and our children will be worse for it.
No, I do have some heavy concerns about a court battle, but I need to try to not let it affect me, as best as my pessimistic self is capable.
Well, the Sword of Damocles is bout to fall, any day now... I wonder how I will be served. Will she use the sheriff or certified mail?
Part of me feels like telling her that she is only doing me a favor -- freeing me from her insanity after 20 months in purgatory.
But I feel so bad for my kids...
I agree with the rest NC, you'd have to be some sort of criminal for them to deny you access. How much time are you asking for? currently stbx has my kids every other Sunday and mon-wed morning (he has 3days off)
I will keep you in my prayers, I hope hope they give you a decent amount of time)))) hang in there, you are in the thick of it, this legal madness will end.
Well, the Sword of Damocles is bout to fall, any day now... I wonder how I will be served. Will she use the sheriff or certified mail?
I feel bad for your kids too. You on the other hand will prob. be better off! I know we're DBers, but I believe that!
Can you just ask your W if the sheriff will be serving you or mail? I mean you could tell her you'd like some notice so you can talk to your boys about it before the sheriff shows up at the door? I would think that would be scary for them! And of course that way you could prepare yourself also. That was one of the tougher days I've had in this, when I got the papers, and I was kind of expecting them and I got them in the mail which is prob. is easier than a Sheriff at your door!!! Karen
If you have a L already they can serve via your L. Believe it or not, I was never served. Found out about it via a nosy friend and the newspaper!!
I know here where I live the norm is one day a week and every other weekend. He was so wrapped up in codes and such that is all he asked for. He waited for the last court day to say he wanted another day. I knew the kids were already miserable with the arrangement so I said No, let's leave it the way you planned it. Now he constantly threatens me that he is going to take me back to court to get more time.
I know that you are a great dad. You can tell by the way you talk about them. You have their feelings at heart. Maybe they would accept a petition that we all could sign telling them how obvious it is that you are their rock.
Stay strong. We are all here for you.
kat
In my state, they seem to have 2 standard arrangements: some dads have one night a week and every other weekend (what my L says H will prob. get and more than he sees them now) or they have one week on and one week off which sounds 50/50 to me. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to have the 50/50 if you want that. I mean my H could have 50/50 prob. if he wanted it I would think. What does your L say? Karen
She probably also doesn't want you to have 50/50 because it would lessen her child support you would pay her.
The more I learn about her, the less I like her, nocode. I am so sorry.
My opinion is that custody should stay about the same as it did before the D in most cases. I mean I have kind of the opposite thing going--H wants more custody so he can pay less child support although he doesn't really he has a hard time just seeing them the one day a week usually cutting that day short; I mean I think he wants the support $$$ but not really the parenting duties & responsibility.
I think in cases like yours where you were equal parents then 50/50 is fair. In my case, where my H was seeing the kids less than 10 hours a week, the one night and every other weekend is more than he did in the past 15 years and 50/50 would be crazy. I think if all of a sudden someone is radically upping or wanting to decrease their spouses hours with the kids after 10-20 years of doing differently, it seems to me that $$$ is their motivation rather than the best interest of the kids. Karen
Thanks, everyone, for all the nice words. I can't tell you how heartening it is to hear (read) your kind assurances and support.
Since May, we have been on the 7 days on, 7 days off schedule. That means I have my kids a full week, every other week. I think it works perfectly for the most part, especially for our S's.
Before that we were roughly following the schedule we had followed since the oldest was born: She had weekdays and I had weekends. On weekends, I was "Mr. Mom", even before the separation. But after the separation, I really missed having regular input into their daily lives, especially since they were starting school. So, when STBX and I tried "mediation", I asked for more time with my S's. At the same time W didn't like being saddled with only weekdays, and asked for some weekends with our S's. I was willing to compromise as long as it didn't result in a net loss in time with my S's, and it was difficult getting W to understand that. But S8 on his own convinced her that 50/50 is fair and what he wanted.
Now she's reneging. I am just trying to hold to the 7 & 7 schedule, but she claims she has, as she puts it, "compromised too much." She wants to stick me with just the (year-round school schedule's) track-out period for S8 -- that is a poison pill. That would limit my custody to no more than 20-25% of the year, and it would mean she not only wants to pump up her child support payment, but also "stick me" with the days that the boys are not in school -- I would be liable for additional daycare costs on top of that since I have to work.
If that is her idea of a suitable and fair first offer, then it underlines just how much disregard she has for me.
Karen, it has crossed my mind about the sheriff serving me while my sons are present, and my first thought was, "Nah, she wouldn't be so cold-blooded as to do that, would she?"
But now I am reconsidering -- I don't really know this woman anymore, do I? After the hell this alien person has subjected me to and continues to do so, all the while finding any sort of irrational justification for her actions and behaviors, I can't really rule out anything from her, sad to say. I would hope she would never go so far, but I've been burned so badly before in placing any trust in her.
Still, all I can do is hope, and to pray to God that she won't do such a thing, to embarrass the father of her own children like that, right in front of them. Should I dare ask her? Would that do me any good?
Still, all I can do is hope, and to pray to God that she won't do such a thing, to embarrass the father of her own children like that, right in front of them. Should I dare ask her? Would that do me any good?
I think you should. The worst that can happen is that she won't give you an answer, but if you stress your worry for your children perhaps she will. At least you will have done what you can. And if she does go the Sheriff route, hopefully she will tell you then. Having kids I would never do that myself, but who knows???
I think you should try to hold firm to the 50/50. Don't argue with her about it, but if she tries to get you to change that maybe start forwarding those emails to your L. Let your L deal with that. If you keep up the 50/50 I don't think any judge would change that. Karen
I am still considering saying something to STBXW. I agree with your thoughts on this, Karen, ...but the other part of me realizes that if she is really the sort of person who would do such a thing, then me saying something to her about it will have zero effect anyway, right? She would just ignore me.
And if she has not become the sort of person who would do such a thing to her children, indicating she does still have some modicum of compassion in her soul, then my asking her would just give her more cause to accuse me of maligning her.
Like everything else with STBXW these days, I am d*mned either way I go.
<update>
Well,... It looks like I now know the answer to my question. I just got home and there on my door was a nice little 3 x 5 card from the U.S. Postal Service saying they missed me for a delivery. It says it is a certified letter for which I must sign for. No need to guess what for...
...
...
... <sigh> ...
...at least she decided not to lead off with all the drama of having the Sheriff deliver it, and while the boys are with me. Although there's nothing to prevent that from still happening at some point however.
I am now thinking I need to intercept that letter carrier on their next attempt to deliver it -- as soon as I can, or else I am sure STBXW will turn it over to the Sheriff's office (I can just hear her now, "It's your fault you got publicly served in front of our sons, because you didn't accept or sign for the USPS delivery! How can you be so cruel to your own children?!")
I'm not ready yet to suck up my pride and "thank" STBX for not using the heavier-handed method first.
<update>
I'm not ready yet to suck up my pride and "thank" STBX for not using the heavier-handed method first.
I'm so sorry NC. ((((NC)))))
Yes, it's better that she sent it certified rather than Sheriff, but I don't think there's any need to thank her for that!!! If it's USPS, I've done that before. You can either pick it up at your local office (it should tell you which one on the card and what hours you can pick it up) or get them to redeliver if you call. I would try to get it soon if you can; I think you'll feel better when you get that over with.
I don't think you should communicate with your W at all. How are you doing? I can guess of course...I'm really sorry. Karen
I am very sorry nocode. Its hard when it becomes official. Don't say a word either way to W about the letter. She can inquire through her atty if she is so serious.
Hugs!
(((((((NC))))))),
Just when I think she can't get any witchier, she proves me wrong! I too think it has a lot to do with trying to get more child support. I'm so sorry she keeps piling on all the bad feelings. UGHHHHHH!!!!
Hugs, Yoyo
you are on my prayers NC))))) praying for your strenght and for good custody results))
NC, did you get the certified mail yet? How are you doing? You can be proud that you've tried to take the high road with your W. You'd think some of the actions of our WAS would make it hard for them to sleep at night. I'm praying for you and thinking of you also! Karen
NC, I'm sure you are very busy with the kids and all, but I hope you post soon and let us know you're doing ok!!! I'm thinking and praying for you and your family!!! You're at a tough part now, but if you're like me at all, and you usually are, your life will get a hundred times better in the next year or 2. (((NC)))) Karen
Karen, Lwb, Yoyo, Cat, everyone,
I thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers and concerns.
Well, I did get served today upon redelivery of the certified letter. I had my two S's with me, so it's not as bad as if I were alone today when this happened.
I'm worn out right now. I'll try to post more later, after I've had a little more time to absorb the impact.
Thanks for posting NC, esp. when in the middle of this. But, whew, I'm glad you're ok!!! I just remember that was one of the tough days when it happened. I'm glad your boys were with you!!! I think you should try to just be selfish and try to do fun things for you and your boys as much as possible. I will check back for more details soon. Try to keep busy, but not just work stuff!!! ((((((NC)))))
And remember I promise you things are going to keep getting better and better. It's been 8 months or so since I got the D papers, and I've gotten so much stronger and happier in that time and you will too!!! Karen
I appreciate your looking in on me, Karen. Up until this afternoon, I thought I was coming to terms with this harsh reality. This weekend, despite this pall over the back of my mind with the D now on the greased rails to materialization, the boys and I had a great weekend. The three of us went to the Blue & Gold dinner (for the cub scouts) and pigged out on dinner and deserts. S8 and I also managed to knock out a number of the achievements he needs to get under him for his Wolf badge. Also, S8 had had a fantastically exemplar week in school last week, and so I rewarded him and his little brother with video games this weekend. All in all a good weekend.
But now I'm about ready to call it all quits.
After S8 had such a great week last week -- all under STBXW's custody -- S8 decided to act up in class today, his first day back under my custody. Thus he had a bad day after a week of successful, good days that his teachers had just glowed about. And while I cheered and congratulated S8 for all his good works last week, despite this being a plus for STBXW, this immediate setback at the very start of his week under my care sheds a very negative light upon me and my parenting.
It doesn't help matters that he would not complete his homework assignment this evening according to the instructions his teacher sent.
And after all three of S8's school property damage incidents last Fall took place under my custody as well, I cannot help but take this personally. I know that S8 is just a little boy and has little control over his own behavior (not that that excuses him) but if he were trying to make me look bad as his parent he couldn't do a better job than what he's done so far. I asked him what he was thinking, to which he has no answer, just shrugs his shoulders and insists that he is trying his best. I know he means well, and he doesn't know it, but he is killing me, folks!
I can guarantee you this and all the other incidents under my watch are being cataloged by STBX and her L. I know they're just reveling in the knowledge that my own son is ignorantly helping scuttle my hopes of being a meaningful parent in my S's lives. I now feel this overwhelming sense of despair, that at this rate I will be lucky to have supervised visitation with either of my S's, let alone 50% custody.
I don't know how to get this across to S8 and S4 without unduly burdening them. I am so lost and despondent right now. I have been on my knees so much before God, and I have sought so many prayers from my church of late, I am beginning to think maybe I am just not destined to be a father any longer either. If that's true, then I don't have much left to consider my life having much meaning. I know God loves me, but I really am starting to think I really don't have a purpose anymore, not in this world anyways. Perhaps that is because I have always been a person with a purpose in life, and so I need to be humbled even more. But I don't think I can take much more.
You know just when I think I've hit rock bottom, I find there's more earth to bury me with. PMA, what's that?!?
(((((((((((nc))))))))))
Now, Stop it.. Im telling you this because I care. You are a wonderful father. The boys are going through something that is effecting them, now wether it be while they are with you or the wicked witch, its no matter. I don't think that them acting up has anything to do with you having them at that particular time. For all you know they do the same thing with her, she just is NOT going to tell you about it! Kids are kids, they need help through this too,which I know you know and this is not a reflection on you. If their mother uses it against you, I hope and pray the judge sees right through that!!!
Their mother decided to cheat, you didn't make that choice. Instead of her trying to put the pieces back together she chose to rip her family apart. Now, This is of her own doing. Stop blaming yourself, please. Yes you have a purpose, your upsetting me with what you are saying.Don't let her do this to you, you are giving her way too much power over you.
Can you go and talk to your priest, or someone you can just vent to face to face?
Im sorry that you got your "letter" . As much as you've been through, I know it still hurts. I wish there was something I could say or do to help you. Please know that you have helped me over the long months and you are a real friend. Keep your chin up. Email me anytime.
Tal
i highly, highly recommend you find a christian counselor for him. I thought I was able to handle my son's hurt, but boy was I wrong! I was saying the wrong things (meaning well of course) and not helping his aprehension. The C he sees now is wonderful and has helped *both* of us cope. Please give that a try, s8 sounds like he has some issues, he's trying to convey what he feels in the wrong way but he just doesn't know how to do it differently, a C will help him.
And while I cheered and congratulated S8 for all his good works last week, despite this being a plus for STBXW, this immediate setback at the very start of his week under my care sheds a very negative light upon me and my parenting.
It doesn't help matters that he would not complete his homework assignment this evening according to the instructions his teacher sent.
Ok, this happens to me almost every week. The kids spend Friday night and Saturday with their dad and then come home. I usually have the worst day of the week that 24 hours after they come home. I think there are many reasons for that in my case and prob. yours: first of all H keeps them up very late Friday night which I understand he sees them so little I would prob. do that too if I had them one night a week so they're exhausted when they return, also AS kids are horrible at handling transition and switching from one parent to another is a huge transition, also I also think that kids act out the worse with the parent they feel most comfortable with. My S15 tells me some of his horrible depressed feelings sometimes and I've asked him if he shares those kinds of thoughts with his Dad and he says no. Their therapist said she thinks they consider me their "emotional" parent whatever that means, but I think she basically means they feel they can act and vent with me and I'll always be there and not leave them. Maybe they feel more safe with you than your W???
I do think counseling like Cat suggested is a good idea. Aren't your boys already seeing someone? If not, that's good. My S15 seems better now after a couple months of therapy, not completely back to himself but on his way at least. ((((NC))))
Also re: the homework. My kids the only reason they balk at homework is usually b/c they are having some kind of problem with it. They don't understand it or feel they can't do it. Usually after a couple ?s I can figure out what they don't understand or it they think they can't do it, break it down into smaller pieces. That usually helps.
BTW, one day when i was feeling just like you and my D9 was melting down after a visit with her dad, I asked her do you do this with your dad? (He tells the C that she doesn't). My S15 overhead and says yes she does do that with dad. Apparently he won't admit to that and even lies about it for some reason. So I doubt your kids are perfect angels with your W either!!! Karen
I appreciate all of you. I really do.
Unfortunately today was as bad as yesterday -- in one way worse.
Perhaps counseling for both of my S's might be in order. (Thanks for the suggestion, Cat.)
I have to clarify that S8's behavior yesterday (and today) is bad enough, but that it was done so openly and publicly, before teachers and staff -- and can thus be brought up in court. And given all the glowing praise given to STBXW by the teachers for last week, these two days stand in such stark contrast.
S8 is handing to STBXW on a silver platter her entire case to have me relegated to the same marginalized role as those so-called fathers who don't even want to be involved in their children's lives.
The pity is that we had such a great start this weekend (my week of custody began Friday evening.) So S8 has had time to adjust to the transition before the start of school this week. Moreover, even though I have now had to hold the video games at bay, especially on a "school night". STBXW can claim she hasn't had to restrict the gameplay while still managing to get S8 to perform well.
No, all these points may be just circumstantial in nature, but added altogether it only points out that I am a lousy parent at worst and one my children just do not really respect at the very least, certainly not like their mother, it would appear. If I were a judge looking at this impartially, even I would have to come to the same conclusion.
To cap it all off, my S4 had a complete conniption fit and melt-down when I dropped S8 off at the wicked MIL's before school. S4 did not want to go to preschool if it meant being apart from S8 and he would have rather gone to stand with S8 at the bus stop for the 15 minutes it would take and then go back to be with his "grandmother" the rest of the day than go with me to take him to preschool. He had such a crying fit that STBXW came out to my car (I couldn't leave until I got S4 back into his seatbelt and settled down, which he was resisting) and tried to act like Super-Mom and get him to calm down. Eventually S4 did settle down after we both tried to convince him it was for just one more day. All the while I was feeling so much resentment towards STBXW for putting all of us in this frakking situation. I was deeply hurt because S4 was saying he didn't want to go anywhere with me ever again, and he said he'd rather stay with the evil MIL.
And once I pulled into the Preschool parking lot, S4 started bawling again, and so I had to try to soothe him yet again. The good news is that I managed to coax him inside and to get him settled, and at the end of the day he had forgotten all about his desire to forego Daddy and the preschool.
S8 however has another bad day, acting up and not completing his assignments. Even though he knows the score and how dire the situation obviously is, he still allowed his unruly nature get the better of himself.
I know both of my S's love me. But unfortunately I fear they don't really respect me, and their actions bear this out. This is the respect a husband or father must command to be able to properly lead my children. I blame STBXW for this as she has denied me due respect for many years now, especially with her wanton lack of faithfulness. And her continual parading of OM before my S's only reminds them of my weakened position in their eyes.
I am trying to return to an even keel with this. I am learning to not let this affect me so much. If my sons decide to ignore my counsel or allow their more wild natures get the better of them despite my instructions not to, then I will have to resign myself to the cold, hard fact that they will be removing themselves from the regular influence of a loving, conscientious and devoted father. I really cannot help if they prefer their mother (as bent and wicked as she has turned out) to me. I expect that even, knowing how boys are. I can merely love them just the same, no matter what. And if that is not enough to save our R with each other, then I can say that I have done the best I can.
NC, please, please please call a C right now, my s10 doesn't act up at that rate but he is still going to a C, the damage that this freaking D inflicts on kids can go on throughout their lives if we dont' do something NOW. Pick up the phone, google the web and find yourself a C, there is no perhaps, they need someone who can help them deal with their hurt, to help you help them.
Before C, every time my son would complain about live-in-gf and her kids I always tried to tell him he'd have to accept it, I tried to tell him that things could be worse, etc etc. The C told me that I needed to let him vent, that he'd vent over and over and that my role wasnt' to downplay how bad the sitch was, I was to say "yes, I hear you, I know this hurts", to let him get it out until it was all out. He is doing so much better now, I really thought I could handle it since, as Karen points out, I was the "emotional" parent, they dont' tell their dad anything, only me. The C taught me a lot, that's why I encourage you to please seek a professional, specially if your son is having such a hard time at school.
Moreover, having C sessions will be some sort of a record that you have a professional who can see the real picture and if necessary say that it isn't you being a bad parent that is making your son act up.
I have to agree. My son having bad grades and acting up in school, how could that ever relate back to my H since they live with me 90% of the time?? Well effects of divorce and the feelings that are caused don't always conveniently show themselves. they are upset because they are. Perhaps your STBXW is very strict or just won't hear of them crying, so that all the frustration comes out when they are with you.
My s13 won't discuss his anger, frustration and disappointment with his Dad. His Dad talks down to him and says what he says goes so he feels that it won't do any good to voice his opinion anyway. I don't think you do that. The way you talk about them shows what a great parent you are. Don't ever doubt that.
I do think it would help to go to a C. They could get so much out that way instead of at school. and by the way , what 4 year old wouldn't choose grandma's(despite how evil in this case) over school? Cut yourself some slack.
hugs,
Kat
I'm thinking it sounds like a lot of this is stuff I've gone through with my kids--ordinary kid stuff. My kids esp. D9 has told me a couple times she hates me or whatever, and then later she cools down and says I'm sorry I didn't mean it. But even if she never said that I know it's just something she says. Kids are kids.
But if you want me to agree with you, that you're a parent who's causing his kids to act out. OK, sure. So what should you do about that then? Maybe you could look at it as a problem to solve? Like I haven't gotten a job yet!, but I don't say I'm a lousy loser not deserving of one, no I think I'm just going to work on networking more and I've gotten some books on interviewing so I can work on improving those skills. I think it helps and it def. helps my PMA to just focus on what is the problem and how can I work on it. Try different stuff until you find what works.
If you still feel like that you could work on your parenting, then maybe get some parenting books and try some of the stuff they recommend that you haven't done yet? Do constructive stuff instead of beating yourself up.
I really do think a lot of this is just our kids going through divorce and separation and I'll admit right now my S15 has had a hard time with this, and I bet most kids. Even my D9 tries to act chipper but I know she is sad too.
One thing I was thinking is you seem to be putting a lot of stress on yourself. Like when your boys act out that reflects badly on you and you're worried how it will look in court. I do think it's possible that your boys could pick up on that kind of stress and it could stress them out too. I mean kind of when I'm in a happy, good mood most of the time my kids are too, and when I'm having a stressed out grumpy day my kids seem too also. Like they pick up our moods or something.
NC, I know you are a loving dad and that's what's important. Look at my H and I don't think he ever has any feelings like you do about his parenting or self-reflection, and really he is not even in the same league as you!!!! Karen
Hello, Cat, Kat and Karen,
I agree. I am obviously telegraphing something to S8. And he's very bright -- he can see the anxiety that has been building up in me with his mother threatening to substantially curtail my custody.
I saw my atty. today to talk about the D and STBXW's filing the complaint for it. But we also talked about the custody issue and the conflict between us parents. She (my L) made similar suggestions as all of you did. She suggested that I try again pursuing a Parenting course, even if STBXW continues to refuse to participate. She suggested that I take S8 to IC, specifically with Project Enlightenment, for both his AS and for his possibly divorce-related behavior problems.
As far as the D itself, my L asked me what I want to do about it. Unless I wanted to challenge some of the minutiae in court or seek delays, there was nothing I can do to prevent W from ultimately being granted her D. I knew this from the start. So I told L that I didn't care, that if W was so hell-bent on divorce, I was not going to stand in her way. So I will do nothing and allow the court system to process her complaint and she will get her divorce about this time next month.
Perhaps once STBXW gets her precious D she will calm down and see I am really not out to get her after all.
Hey No Code..
*hugs* I apologize upfront for being a 'fixer'... toss, take or leave behind whatever you want.
I have no ego when it comes to my children. The lawyer told me I had to take a mandated parenting class, I was the first in line with pen and paper.
Be aware of your fears.. many times your greatest fears come true. Mine did.. losing my relationship with the man I married and secure financial security with the divorce. I'm not saying this to scare you.. but to allow focus. You see.. fear freezes actions. If I hadn't been afraid I would have dealt with things head on rather than getting and staying stuck.
Have YOU seen a counselor? If not, going to a good one would be helpful. What about medication.. anti depressants... how do you feel about that? My counselor taught me that I had to be in a good place to make good decisions. Having her and my doc with the medication checks has proved to be a fantastic combination.
Kids model after their parents. If you feel helpless, they feel helpless and will seek out attention (good or bad) to test and maintain boundaries. "Love and Logic" is a great book for parenting issues.
Get healthy, No Code.. in mind, body and spirit.. to the best of your ability. Toss away the list of all the bad that you fear will happen and replace it with everything you want to happen. Get healthy and the rest follows.
As corny as it seems, YOU are in complete control over how you feel. Get off the "I suck, I'm going to lose everything that's precious to me" rocking horse. You don't suck. And you definitely rock in good ways.
The lawyer suggests taking a parenting class.. say great!.. Is there a follow up class? What else can I do, Mr. Attorney.. what would help my case?
Kids are kids are kids. If you view each one of their negative actions at school, going to school, etc as a mark against you, your focusing on YOU more than them.. and they pick up on that. And they feel guilty and insecure because Daddy is unhappy with them. Where's all the great stuff you share them?
Perception. What is yours.. how do you improve?
I'm sorry to hear the divorce papers were served. But guess what...? It was the least expensive way possible.. whoo hoo! She's not out to decimate the assets you have.
The court doesn't like to change something that's working. Your 7 day on/off arrangement seems to be working. Just because she wants something doesn't mean she'll get it. If you're so concerned about losing the kids, ask the lawyer about the viability of having an assessment made by a social worker of both households and how the kids interact.
Code.. the world is not out to get you. You're a wonderful, articulate human being. The sky is not falling, the ground IS shaking a bit.. but you have steady hands for your sons to hold and a smile that shows them all is good.
Bring out your best for you.. for your boys. Drop the sack cloth and live in the light, not the darkness of despair.
If you have the urge to say "I can't".. replace it with "I choose not to"... makes a huge difference.
*hugs*
(((((NC))))),
I don't have much to add. I think you have received some very wise advice. Just remember we have to get to a healthy place first before we can take care of others. Believe me I speak from experience. This battle continues to be ongoing for me. Just remember, on an airplane they tell you in case of an emergency to put the the oxygen on yourself first then take care of the ones that are unable to care for themselves. Take a deep breath NC, then help the boys to breathe.
Hugs, Yoyo
Gypsy, thanks for the wisdom.
Yes, I had been seeing a IC, until last November. And yes, I had been on A-D's until last Fall. In both cases, I was taken off of them because I seemed to no longer need them anymore. My PMA had seemed very good.
Yoyo, yes, you're right. I need to heal me too.
All, I need to get my act in gear. My PMA has been in the toilet for a long time now. It started taking a nose dive about the time STBXW started her latest effort to negate my input in my S's lives. I may put my full faith and trust in the Lord, but I don't trust human beings to do the right thing. STBXW has continued to prove over and over just how treacherous we humans can really be. That's the basic cause for this fear that has been causing me to stumble. I've got to let go of that fear, for my sake and for my S's sake. And it makes me a poor Christian to be so down.
I am sick with a cold right now and I really need a rest.
Hey Code...
Maybe a recheck, a tune up, in regards to the counseling and meds might be helpful. You want to be in a good place to make good decisions at this time.
My counselor said the above statement to me and it's become a mantra. I don't like being on meds, struggled with needing the help of a professional. Guess what, when it works.. it keeps me on an even keel. And I control how much I get out of it based on how invested I am.
She watches for when I start 'spinning'.. not being able to get out of a certain thought. That's the sign of depression and/or anxiety increasing. I can face it head on and work on it. If that doesn't work, then the meds might need to be adjusted. And anxiety is so pervasive. I hate how anxiety takes a kernel of truth and transforms it to the worst possible outcome. That's a harder one to stop, but you can do it.
From the outside looking in.. you're spinning. The fears are greater than anything else. You can do this on your own. The results just come faster with the help of professionals.
*hugs*
I agree. NC, you know I'm taking ADs & have since the bomb. And I don't plan on stopping until after the D, maybe a couple months after. This is probably the toughest, most difficult part of our lives, and I'm just trying to do everything to get through it: friends, GALing, ADs, therapy, exercise, God. If I've forgotten anything, let me know.
Karen
YooooooooooOOOOOooOOOOOoooooooooooooo HooOOooOOOooooooOOOOoooooo....
Where are yooOOOoOuuUUUuuuuuuuu?
How's it going?
*hugs*
Hello, all, I am here -- off and on this weekend. Sorry if I've been a little preoccupied. I've tried to lurk, but even that's been a little difficult.
I have taken everyone's advice to heart. In fact, I am getting ready to leave in about 30 minutes to see my counselor -- I can't believe we haven't met since August (is that right?) Miraculously, when I called him Friday, he had an opening today, on such short notice. God must agree too.
I have also gotten three referrals from Project Enlightenment for my S's. I have already given advance notice to STBXW that I was taking these measures on our S's behalf -- I certainly don't think I should withhold from her my plans concerning our S's even when she does not show such courtesy for me. But as expected, STBXW has been questioning me accusedly, as if children going through D don't need counseling. She even went so far as to say that I am the only real source of problems for our boys -- if I would stop trying to "convince" them that D is wrong and that it is such the tragedy I make it out to be, then our S's would not suffer any ill effects at all.
So she feels I have to adopt her warped line of thinking (or at least lie that way) to best help our children through the turmoil of D.
She's sick.
On the AD's, I can say that even when I was on the AD's that did not stop me from sinking to the lowest depths of depression anyway. Nothing I feel now is as dark as those months leading up to the bomb and shortly thereafter. I've been off the meds since September, and the current downturn I feel stems from my reaction to STBX's actions. She still has a way of stealing my joy -- and if not outright stealing, fooling me into not enjoying it.
I am hoping that my IC can advise me how best to cope with this emotional and spiritual burden and to gather my strength again so I can move forward. If he suggests AD's, then I will take him up on it.
I am hoping that my IC can advise me how best to cope with this emotional and spiritual burden and to gather my strength again so I can move forward. If he suggests AD's, then I will take him up on it.
This is all you can do. Reach out for help and be open to it.
Nocode...sigh....don't let anyone warp the view of your role as your son's father. Especially the selfish mother of those same boys.
I agree with you on one thing. Nothing at this point could drop me as low as I was pre-post bomb. Nothing. I honestly don't know how I survived it, not eating, not sleeping, barely a shell of a person. I can't even read back to my old threads.
Hope your appointment goes well. Don't hold back, nocode, get the help that is out there. ((((nocode and his boys))))
Hey Code..
EDITED - ADVERTISING is NOT ALLOWED. You must comply with the DivorceBusting.com Board Rules if you would like to continue the privilege of posting here. Sounds like an interesting breakdown.
It's impressive how quickly you're making things happen. One reason to have a qualified psychiatrist with the meds is because of their experience with how the drugs work and if they are at a therapeutic level. The doc only knows what you tell him/her. You have to work together to be in the best place possible.
And remember, you own your happiness.. your sorrow. Those are yours and yours alone. Choices.
You can keep her as a bullhorn to your ear to choose to turn away, turn it off, put it down. Babysteps.
*hugs*
Hello, my dear friend, NC,
Just stopping by to let you know I'm thinking of you and hoping that you have a nice week.
Hugs, Yoyo
Me too, NC. Hope your off busy and having fun. How did the therapist go??? Miss ya. Karen
Hello, all,
I have missed you all too.
I am sorry I have been so vacant these last few days. Been just so busy. I had to go out of town yesterday on business, for example. And just trying to keep up with everyone's sitch's has been a challenge, let alone updating my own.
Likewise this has forestalled my running down these leads for family counseling for my S's. The good news is that when STBXW started asking S8 whether he thought my idea was any good, S8 told her he would appreciate being able to talk to someone about these things, including other kids going through the same struggles. (Perhaps this means STBXW is getting her first whiff of the coffee, so to speak.)
I am also talking to S8's teacher about getting the school counselor involved. The teacher seems very willing to help out.
My visit with my IC was good. I had a lot of events to catch him up on: a lot has transpired since we last met in August. As usual, he let me do most of the talking, occasionally asking me leading questions to get me to think about things in another way.
I was telling him about all the crap STBXW has been putting me through, and how delusional she and her mother are for their relentless insistence that their version of reality is true. I stopped and paused, then I said that maybe I was the one who was delusional, that I had it all wrong. That's when the IC spoke up and said, "No, no, you are not the one who's delusional here."
I can say that really appreciated the vote of confidence. Because I have to wonder sometimes.
I really need to get this D behind me now. If that has now become a fait accompli then there is no sense in putting it off any longer and thereby further delaying my healing and the rest of my life. Out of fear for my S's I have allowed myself to become stuck in limbo, abrogating my stated policy to "Keep Moving Forward."
Tia..
Sorry about that.. didn't realize it was inappropriate..
I stopped and paused, then I said that maybe I was the one who was delusional, that I had it all wrong. That's when the IC spoke up and said, "No, no, you are not the one who's delusional here."
I can say that really appreciated the vote of confidence. Because I have to wonder sometimes.
I have those feelings too sometimes. I think our WAS sometimes (at least in our cases) like to view us as the bad guy or the crazy guy and they have no choice but to end the marriage. Their script or whatever. I don't think like in my case anyone believes this except H, OW, and maybe his best friend or 2. Don't play the role she wants you to play. Try not to discuss stuff with her in person. Send brief, professional type emails with no personal feelings. Don't let her push your buttons. I know this is very difficult believe me.
I really need to get this D behind me now. If that has now become a fait accompli then there is no sense in putting it off any longer and thereby further delaying my healing and the rest of my life. Out of fear for my S's I have allowed myself to become stuck in limbo, abrogating my stated policy to "Keep Moving Forward."
I can understand you wanting to get this over with and over all this junk. I feel that way too. But I do think that I'm still healing and growing even through this process. But I know it will be good to have it over with.
Karen
NCB--
Just caught up - what a whirlwind!!
One thing I read that has stuck with me:
You mentioned that your S8 has been acting up, even though he knows that it will reflect badly on you and may be a custody problem.
Please, please tell me that you haven't said any of the above to him directly...
Giving kids news like this can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. He acts out because you are sending the message that you are EXPECTING him to act out, and worse, that if he does, if he fails, he will loose time with you, AND disappoint/hurt you. Talk about stressing out an 8 year old!!! It happens because he is so worried that it WILL happen!
What the others' said about an IC for the kids is crucial.
Judges, Ls, etc., understand the trauma that kids go through when parents divorce. They have seen it a thousand times, unfortunately. Nothing your kids do will surprise them. They also will recognize that kids usually act up more with the SAFE, STABLE parent. You will bear the brunt of it because they know in their hearts that you will love them, no matter what.
Their mother has demonstrated that this is not the case with her. You do something she doesn't like, and SHE LEAVES!
You have to stand up and be a man for those boys (I hope that doesn't sound too harsh). Your X is no better than you as a parent. You have to have confidence in your parenting skills, and do what you have to in order to gain those TEACHABLE SKILLS if necessary. I am SO glad to hear that you are back in IC! Take a parenting course, read books that the IC can suggest.
I found a local group who offers bereavement groups for kids who are dealing with a death or divorce of a parent - it was good for them to be around other kids who could share similar thoughts, make them feel like they weren't alone. Talking to the school counselor is a good idea; they know about resources like this. While the kids were in group, a social worker also met with the parents to share, vent, offer suggestions, etc.
No excuses on getting the kids the help they need. That has to be your #1 priority right now. Start searching the web tonight, email the school and ICs over the weekend. THAT is what will matter to the boys the most, and stand out to any third party looking at your parenting - NOT if the kids are acting out! It is how you RESPOND that will be looked at!!! Don't fold up, wither and give up, just when those kids need you most!
btw, your stbx cannot steal away your happiness, just as she couldn't be the one who "made" you happy. Like love, that is a choice. Start a gratitude journal and start being grateful for all that is - you will find a lot. Look for those things, especially when your head wants to make you obsess about the bad (says the lady who spent too long in too deep a hole). AD's are not a bad thing. I've been on them for about 2 years, and only last month starting weaning off them. Been in IC since 11/06...first it was about the bomb and all of that. Now, it is to continue with my own growth.
I want to be the best person I can be. For myself, and for my kids.
(((hugs)))
nocodes...
Hope you are doing better. Im glad you went to the IC.
((((((hugs)))))
Hello, everyone, I have lurked on other's threads, but am still so stretched thin to relate my own status. I will try to give a brief update.
Please, please tell me that you haven't said any of the above to him directly...
Not in so many words, Donna, but I wonder that my moods have influenced him despite my attempts to hide them. S8 has Asperger's, and thus he's supposed to have reduced capacity to empathize with the feelings of others -- but you would be hard pressed sometimes to prove that of him. He perceives so much more than "we" tend to give him credit for -- I think he just reacts to other people's emotions differently,
not that he is unable to sense them at all.
btw, your stbx cannot steal away your happiness, just as she couldn't be the one who "made" you happy.
No, I agree. Neither the WAS or anyone else can steal our joy unless we
allow them to do so. I have allowed for too long, I know.
<journaling>
Well, S8 had a great day on Saturday. He won third place in the district Pinewood Derby race! He has done a very admirable job for his first year entering. I am very proud of him and his accomplishment, and I and very happy he has this new sense of accomplishment and achievement.
I have to relate, though, a little story about STBXW. She was there at the event along with the hateful, snide MIL to support S8 in his latest competition.
Background: I have made it a point to stress to S8 that win or lose the most important thing to being a scout competing in this event was that he learned and practiced good sportsmanship. I coached S8 to understand that he needed to be a gracious participant in this sport regardless of whether he won or lost.
This is not an easy lesson to learn for any eight year old child.
During the competition S8 demonstrated a lot of maturity, but there was one incident that really reflected badly on us all. His mother, STBXW, had made her way over to where he was about to stage his car for the particular heat our S was about to run in. She got a bit too gung-ho with her cheers and her thumbs-up and the high-fives as S8 passed her on the way to the platform to compete. S8 hammed it up right along with her in response.
FYI: This was very, very poor form for a scout (or their parent) to act that way -- and went against my instructions to S8. I was taking pictures of the event at that moment and was only beginning to realize the faux paux taking place over at the platform. In fact, an older gentleman stepped out of the crowd and raised his voice to STBXW, saying, "You can't do that! That's wrong! Don't be doing that kind of stuff!" -- admonishing my STBXW and my S for these antics.
I was quite a bit embarrassed for them both, especially for STBXW. I am not sure that the significance of this had fully dawned on STBXW -- and I thought to myself that if she is really that insensitive then I not only no longer truly know her, I don't
want to know her.
All in all though, the incident was quickly forgotten, and the competition went on to everyone's delight. On the drive home I took the opportunity to talk to S8 about this -- among all the other afterglow feelings -- and why this was so significant given the expressed values of all scouts. He seems to get it as I did not have to belabor my point at all. He really does make me proud.
and I thought to myself that if she is really that insensitive then I not only no longer truly know her, I don't want to know her.
Wow, I have felt that way many times over the last year (or more!). The things xH says or does these days makes me so glad I am not 'attached' to him anymore, therefore don't feel the need to explain or justify his actions to anyone. And you said it perfectly, I don't recognize xH, nor do I want to waste my valuable time trying to understand him or get to know the 'new' person.
CONGRATULATIONS to S8!!!!!! And good job dad, teaching him the values of a Scout, and of an honorable, valued person. Keep it up!
nocodes....... I just want to say SEE you ARE a great father and someone for him to look up to. As his mother is making an azz out of herself, you are truly someone that he will respect and you should be proud of that.
Congrats to S8!! I know how happy you must be
Hi NC,
How are you? Any big plans with the boys this weekend?
Hugs, Yoyo
CONGRATULATIONS to S8!!!!!! And good job dad, teaching him the values of a Scout, and of an honorable, valued person. Keep it up!
nocodes....... I just want to say SEE you ARE a great father and someone for him to look up to.
Thanks for that, Lwb, Tal. I am trying to do my part for the sake of my kids. It's the most important thing I can do, might
ever do.
Yes, I am proud of my boys.
How are you? Any big plans with the boys this weekend?
I don't have the boys this weekend, but our cub scout den had planned a community service project cleaning up one of the local parks. STBXW was even agreeable to let me take S8 for part of today, for this one scout activity. Unfortunately, with all this cold, wet, wet weather that has hit us the event was cancelled.
Oh, well, I'll be missing both of my S's this weekend as usual. But then I've got a lot of work to catch up on anyway -- I'll be plenty busy with that.
[quote=lwb] But then I've got a lot of work to catch up on anyway -- I'll be plenty busy with that.
busy is good--but hope you set aside some fun time for you. Just to mess around or read a book or see a movie or whatever you feel like.... Karen
NC.. Its good to keep busy.. I know you must miss them.. I can't imagine.
I agree with karen, do something for you.. have fun!
Good Sunday morning nocode. Hope you are finding yourself in good spirits!
Hi NC!!! How's it been going lately? Hope you had a good weekend! Karen
Happy Belated St. Patrick's Day!
Hello, Karen, Tal, Lwb, everyone,
I have been so caught up in work for so many days, weeks now, that I am extremely exhausted. Despite that I seem to be holding up, (especially now that I seem to have finally shaken the last vestiges of this persistent, lingering cold.)
I finally got my boys back yesterday (Friday). We've had a bit too much fun today. We went to the grocery store and the park. I allowed S8 to cook a hamburger and hot dog dinner for the three of us, so he can earn an achievement towards completing his Wolf badge in cub scouts. He's done very well in that -- now he has just one achievement left to complete the requirement.
All of this and the additional crap from work (lots of tasks and project work to catch up) has left me drained. I just got through wrapping up an extremely overdue month-end report, crossing my fingers that I've managed to hold onto my job.
Next week will mark the end of my M.. the big D will become final ...either on Monday or Friday -- I don't recall which day the court will review it, but it doesn't matter since I have no intention of being there. Right now I am feeling somewhat decidedly ambivalent (is that an oxymoron?) about the final death of my M. I might feel differently after it's over however.
I caught the movie Fireproof last weekend. Some of the acting was pretty poor, but the dialog and the events of the story affected me nonetheless. It was good, but I heard so many words that echoed those and the thoughts of myself and my own W. I can (and did for a short time) entertain speculations of what might have happened had I undertaken the Love Dare with W and if that would have made any difference in the course of events. Perhaps I am too close to things, and maybe I am colored by a lingering touch of bitterness at my fate, but I currently conclude that there might never have been any point in our marital history where something like the Love Dare would have succeeded, at least not for very long -- eventually something would have convinced W to stray. W is ever the faithless, stray cat; while I am the loyal dog.
Things have been very quiet between W and I. And that has been peaceful, not having some new twist in the insane drama to harangue me. That was, at least, until yesterday. After picking up the boys I asked S4 about the fact he was no longer going to be going to pre-school. As many of you know, W had decided to totally re-engineer the lives of my S's to suit some nebulous purpose and without my input or approval. She has eliminated S4's preschool (made effective this week) and now the evil MIL will be S4's sole source of daytime care and education for the next year and a half, when S4 can enter kindergarten. She took S8 out of the Y program and put him back on the bus, again with the evil MIL overseeing. All of this has been a serious bone of contention between W and I... Our L's have had to work quite a bit more than is prudent.
Well, as I was driving back to my apartment with my S's and I was in conversation with S4 to search out his feelings about no longer seeing all his friends in preschool, his big brother piped up. S8 said that his mother was going to be able to save some money by taking S4 out of preschool and taking S8 out of the YMCA before-and-after school program.
I told S8 that I was well aware that W had indeed hoped to realize some form of savings, but not that it would save me anything.
S8 continued to talk though: he said that W was saving up for a vacation, to take an Alaskan cruise. S8 was ecstatic at the prospect of his mother taking him to see orcas and huskies.
This was a new revelation for me, the first I'd heard of it, one fraught with bittersweet irony too. Since we lived in Seattle and for years thereafter I had suggested we take a cruise to Alaska -- th closest we got was British Columbia by ferry -- but it was never the right time or we never had the right finances/fiscal priorities. But now she is free of our M she feels it can be done? Without me, then of course.
As you might guess my first thought is that this is really her plans for a honeymoon. Oh, W says she is "done" with M, but she has proven over and over again how full of lies and deceit she really is. She can't be trusted.
My next thought is that W is relishing the thought that I would be subsidizing her great venture. She has prided herself at her hard-fought independence from me, nevermind her continued efforts to yoke me in servitude to her whims belies her pretense and baseless arrogance.
One thing that Fireproof has gotten me to realize: I still love my wife. I can no longer be married to her, and I cannot stand what she has done to us, continues to do to us... but I still love her. If she were to come back to me, I couldn't take her back, but I do still love her.
I realize that she has created a situation where we must forever be apart -- and I am slowly coming to be alright with that.
I realize that she has created a situation where we must forever be apart -- and I am slowly coming to be alright with that.
That's good. I had the same thought about the Alaskan vacation too. I'm hoping she does actually take your boys on the vacation, b/c it sounds like she is kind of cutting out a lot of their activities and fun to help fund it, which I think even at their young age they realize.
Your D is happening so fast! I don't know if it's good to have it drag out a year like mine b/c of the $$$, but it must be also tough to have it happen so quickly. The adjustment and everything. Do you feel you are ready at this point? I think I am getting to that point now, but it's taken me a long time to get there. Karen
I liked that movie, and for the Love Dare to work, the other spouse can't be a slime or a spineless lyiar, so it would not have worked with me either.
Anyways, hope you have thing squared away with your L, you should have a say about the kids and where they stay, do you have joint custody? that's what I have now, and we both have a say about where kids go/not go.
it must be also tough to have it happen so quickly. The adjustment and everything. Do you feel you are ready at this point?
Hi, Karen,
NC has the waiting period for a D more on the separation side of the time-line, if you know what I mean. That is to say, they make you wait a full year in separation before they allow you to file for D. I suppose in most cases that helps couples from entering into D proceedings too quickly. Some states let you file almost immediately, but then have a long period thereafter (which again varies from state to state) for it to become final.
Am I ready? I can't say that I want to be divorced, to have my M terminated, as that was something I had dreamed would never happen. This was supposed to be forever.
But since the State (in general and in specific) and society allows for unilateral divorce without consequence to the party that seeks it, making the death of my marriage just a matter of time, then if it has to be so, I'd just as soon get it over with.
My STBXW has been relentless and adamant for all of these 22 months that she considers our M ended already. I know, believe nothing the wayward says, right? But her actions speak louder than words; she has made certain, by God, that there be absolutely no chance for any form of reconciliation or any iota of a chance we might ever be friends, let alone a couple. I have never ever seen her so determined to see some endeavor through to this degree, well, at least not since our own courtship. If she had ever channeled even a fraction of such initiative and zeal she now displays from her D into our M we might not be in such straits today. She's a tough cookie in that regard, but it's obviously much more easy for one to maintain a level of hostility towards someone else than it is to put your own selfishness aside and work on a M.
But again, to answer your question, if this has to be, I'd just as soon get it over with and get on with the remainder of my life. I am as ready as I am ever going to be.
do you have joint custody?
Hi, Cat, yes I do. Joint legal custody and alternating weeks with STBXW for physical custody -- at least for now. STBXW occasionally chafes at the notion I might be truly involved with our S's, and then she starts making noises about curtailing my custody, as if a court of law would automatically side with her. She wants full decisional rights over our S's lives and if I ever voice an objection to her actions regarding them (such as rejuggling their daycare seemingly ever three to four months), she takes offense for my "interference" and threatens to sue me for sole custody. My threads outline the day-to-day insanity I have had to endure in this mounting custody battle, but I understand not wanting to wade through all that. Right now things seem quiet but once the divorce is final, I am certain STBXW will launch the next phase of her legal war on me, for primary custody.
STBXW occasionally chafes at the notion I might be truly involved with our S's, and then she starts making noises about curtailing my custody, as if a court of law would automatically side with her. She wants full decisional rights over our S's lives and if I ever voice an objection to her actions regarding them (such as rejuggling their daycare seemingly ever three to four months), she takes offense for my "interference" and threatens to sue me for sole custody. My threads outline the day-to-day insanity I have had to endure in this mounting custody battle, but I understand not wanting to wade through all that. Right now things seem quiet but once the divorce is final, I am certain STBXW will launch the next phase of her legal war on me, for primary custody.
But you know the reality is that's never going to happen. Either she doesn't realize that or she says stuff like that just to make you mad? I would just go NC as much as possible with her. And your marriage wasn't over a year ago or whatever when your W said it was. That's just a rationalizing trick or whatever, the WAS tells themselves so they won't feel guilt over their bad behavior!
(Mine did that too of course). Gee, if he hadn't started an affair and getting a girlfriend, maybe he wouldn't have decided the marriage was hopeless???
How's it going with you. I'm starting to get more proactice with the D so hopefully we can get it done and over with sometime this year!!!! Karen
Hello, Karen,
I can certainly understand wanting it to be over and done with -- if it has to be then let it be, I say. Is the timeline in your own case for just the big D or are you also trying to settle the custody issue as well? If the latter, that would explain why yours might be taking longer.
For my case, April 3rd, next Friday, is the D hearing. The judge will render my M dead at that point, with no more perfunctory a gesture than handing out a traffic citation.
I am taking that day off, not because I need to be there -- the L's will be there for the two minute ordeal -- I just want to pick up my sons early that day, spend the afternoon with them on such a (personally at the least) solemn day.
I am still so stunned at how easily one person can end a marriage unilaterally, and how the "system" fully supports and encourages it.
Hey NC..
I felt the same way about the court's ability to render a marriage null and void. I'm glad I was in court as it ended.
You know the amazing thing? The drama ended. A huge weight I didn't even know I was carrying lifted and I felt such calm and peace.
I'd been beating that dead horse (the divorce process/marriage) so much that wasn't even any glue, flesh, hooves, bones left.. just me slapping the earth with my own frustration.
I was the one that held on, clawing with my ragged fingernails.. for what? A man who moved on? A man who moved heaven and earth to be rid of me? A man who'd emotionally checked out years ago? It was me, strangling on a dream as real as fairy dust.
I'd save the day (or include another one) with your children for about 2 or 3 days after it's final. That's when their hugs will mean the most.
Somethings in life just aren't fair... but the best is yet to come!
*hugs*
Is the timeline in your own case for just the big D or are you also trying to settle the custody issue as well? If the latter, that would explain why yours might be taking longer.
I predict we'll have no problems with custody, he is having them one night a week and one day on the weekend. I would like to modify that to him having maybe every weekend or 3 weekends out of the month instead b/c he leaves the kids alone the morning they're at his place. But generally he wants them not that much, and if he wanted more I'm fine with that too, but pre-separation he spent 10 hours or less a week with them and that's plenty for him with his job, running, and OW.
Where we disagree is the homeschooling vs. public school and he wants me to work full-time so he can reduce or maybe cut out most of alimony to me. Basically $$$ is the big thing for him.
Karen
nocode, so sorry about next Friday. I know how you feel. Even though I initiated the D, did the paperwork, found the lawyer, etc, xH caused the actual divorce. Wanted it. Did everything he could to push me away.
About taking the day off and being with your boys, I love that idea. I took the day off work, and arranged for my kids to be elsewhere the rest of the day. I thought I wanted to be alone. Nope. I got home and immediately went and picked them up. We went shopping and to dinner. I wanted to be with them. It wasn't happy, it wasn't sad. It just 'was'. Hug your boys and focus on being thankful that they are in your life.
Hi, Karen. Hi, Lwb.
I figure that since my presence in the courtroom on that day won't make one bit of difference, then I might as well do something more meaningful. And there is little more meaningful than spending time with my S's.
The problem is that STBX shot this down -- she got very defensive about me trying to pick the boys up early, and said I was not supposed to have them until 6 PM. I used her own words against her -- asked her whether it wouldn't be better that our S's spend time with their blood relative (me in this case) rather than "strangers" She decided to punt at that point -- she turned it over to S8 to decide, convincing him that he'd rather be at the YMCA day camp instead. S8 wants to go to the camp and there's nothing I can do about that. STBX won that one.
As I have mentioned, I would be tempted at this point to refer to STBXW as a b*tch, but I have too much respect for dogs to associate them with such contemptable behaviors-- dogs are, at the least, faithful.
<journaling>
Right now I am so torn up. I am distraught over the revelation I discovered this weekend. Seems as if I am always the last to know, but I found out my brother and his wife are now separated. They have three wonderful children.
The both of them, my brother and his W, have supported me during my separation, and to hear they are now in dire straits is killing me. I have not been able to speak with either of them about this -- they are being particularly aloof. I have talked with my youngest brother who is already well informed -- he knows all the details and was able to confirm this horrible turn of events. Apparently they have been unhappy with each other for some time, finally my SIL decided she wants out.
I got almost no sleep last night.
I also found out that my STBXW's sister, my other SIL, has been in contact with my brother's W. I don't think that's a very good sign. I have this gut feeling that my "divorce-happy" STBXW has also gotten involved -- if I ever find out that STBXW has said anything to my SIL, I will make her pay for it. She had better not, not after what they've said about me supposedly "interfering" in her family's lives. If STBXW has offered any influence on my SIL, I will make it my personal life's goal to make STBXW's life a living hell for the rest of her days. That's a promise, and you can bank on it.
I hope for all our sakes STBX stays well clear of this. I have a mind to advise STBX's sister to cease communicating with my family.
I'm so sorry about your brother, perhaps all is not lost, I pray this isn't the case. And for that to have happened it must've taken a lot more than (if ti happened that way) stbx's sister meddleing. Anyways, my prayers their way.
~saying a prayer for them~
You are truly a stand up man nc... I understand how upset you must be, its so sad.
I wish you strength this week with everything.. You will be ok, I promise.
(((((((((hugs)))))))))
I agree your W took it way too far if she did indeed interfere in that way. That sickens me. I hope you find out she had nothing to do with it, and I hope that things take a better turn for your brother and his wife.
I am mad that your W will not let you pick your sons up early that day. Its ridiculous that battles that she chooses to fight with you.
nocode, I am thinking of you.
Thanks, Cat, Tal, Lwb, everyone. I am thankful for all of you.
Last night proved to be very little sleep as well, but for not for tossing and turning like the previous night. I had a conversation with my youngest brother right after he talked to our other brother (K) and his wife (SIL), in a sort-of conference call, as he put it. Basically he told me that neither our brother (K) nor his wife wanted to talk to me -- they were too stressed out. They asked me via my little brother (B) to lay off until they were ready.
I can respect that.
But later last night, about 11:30, my SIL sent me an IM. And that began a long texted conversation via FB's IM function. We "talked" for nearly 3 1/2 hours via keyboard.
Basically SIL confirmed a lot of what I already knew but she filled in a lot of the details. To sum it up, they both are supposedly in mutual agreement that they are unhappy in their M. They went to C but my brother K, the typical middle child, always avoids confrontation and so he wouldn't really cooperate fully in the sessions. They have both suffered a lot of extreme stress due to family problems, jobs, raising three children, and parents (one near invalid). She feels he isn't pulling his weight, and working a full-time job is not enough excuse in her mind. She has suffered from continual bouts of depression for which he has been helpless to do anything about.
So she wants out, and he is letting her.
SIL says that she still loves K because he is a great father to their children, but she has no love left for him as a husband. How many times have we heard these words or words very similar to these?
There's more but I won't go into all of it -- mostly the stuff we all have seen before. I also know that they are suffering a Sex-starved M as well. Of course all the stress they have to endure is likely the prime cause for that.
The good news -- if one can call anything about this "good" -- is that they want to separate "amicably", with joint custody and good will between them. SIL also says she is NOT going to be anything like my STBXW, who blew off the rest of our family and took a hostile, ugly tone with everyone in my family. Furthermore, she fully intends to be there as a full member of our extended family, in all events and get-togethers, as she still loves me, our family, my brothers and her nephews (my S's) very much. She stressed she wants equal joint custody for both she and K.
As for D, she acted like that is not unlikely to happen in the future, but for now they will begin living separate households this summer, once the children get past this school year (they don't plan to tell the children -- or my mom -- until then.)
The part that bothers me -- and I refrained from making too many comments to SIL, just tried to let her have her say -- is that when STBXW and I first separated almost 2 years ago now, my SIL told me then that she and K had almost divorced back in 1995/1996, but that they had pulled themselves together and she and he were very happy she had made the effort to persist in their M.
But now she says that they made a mistake in staying together. That bothers me -- I don't like such inconsistencies. My, how fast things can change. Perhaps she was being overly positive about her own sitch back then as an effort to keep me thinking positively myself about my own situation. Then again, I wonder was it more for my sake or hers?
I feel better having talked to SIL, as I had been fearing the worst -- that one of them was having an A. And that might still be one of their ulterior motives, but I don't think so, because of the reasons SIL did give me instead. She said the primary problem between them right now is that K has gotten more and more agnostic in his beliefs while she has tried to get back to her faith. SIL has said it has always deeply disturbed her that K no longer goes to church and has gotten to the point he prefers that the children not go either.
I know this is a BIG problem for them, if so. I've tried to talk to him myself about this, but he is very stubborn and resistant -- not disrespectful, mind you, just contrary.
I told her I was really pouring on the prayers for them now. I am constantly thinking about them and continuing to ask the Lord to work wonders on their lives, for all their sakes.
Nc... Im so sorry for the situation.
Its just a shame that we get married, have children andd feel somewhere a long the line we lost something, and for it to turn out this way. There is so many people it effects, especially the kids.
I hope by some miracle things can work out, and if not thank the lord that they are amicable and able to deal with family things with respect for one another.
You are a very supportive man nc.. your wife is a fool.
Yes, Tal, STBXW is a fool, but a dangerous fool...
Our L's had another meeting yesterday. The news is that STBXW is not even waiting for the D day to get here before starting the effort to file a custody suit. STBXW has asked if I would accept their terms for scaling my custody back to just 11 weeks out of the 12 weeks per year of track-out times (S8 is in year-round school) -- except she'd still get half of the holidays anyway even though most of them in our track fall within the track-out periods anyway.
It's a poison pill they know I cannot accept.
On top of that I'd be liable for helping her with most of her daycare costs and responsible for ALL of the costs during track-out (when the costs double.)
I have to say no. And they know it -- that can only mean they're now gearing up for a court battle to take my S's away.
What is wrong with some people?
What does your L say about this NC? I would think this is very unlikely. I'm sad to hear about your SIL and brother. It sounds like they just have too much stress on their plates. Divorce adds more stress so don't really see how that will help them. I think in the long run they may see that, hopefully before it's too late!!! It sounds like they have workable problems esp. if there's no A and it sounds like mutual respect for each other. Karen
That's what I would like to know to Karen.. what does the L have to say?
I don't think they will take your son's away, I really don't. Just because you aren't agreeing with her conditions, they are your children too and Have a say what arraignment will be made. Shame on her for being such a witch.
I wouldn't expect you to swallow this one, I certainly wouldn't.
I can't imagine how hard this is for you, and im so sorry for that. Im sad for you and the boys.
((((((((nc)))))))))
Karen, Tal,
I speak with my L first thing tomorrow morning, a telephone conference call.
All she has said so far is that if STBX files a case the first thing the court will do will be to send us to mediation. However I found out last night (in a very interesting dinner meeting, see below) that there's a good chance that because of that totally worthless attempt at voluntary mediation last year, STBX's L might ask for a waiver of court-appointed mediation -- and thus go straight to litigation.
I'm not hopeful in that. And I'm a little perturbed by my own L that she hasn't mentioned that as a possibility herself, that I had to learn this from another party.
Meanwhile my retainer is long since blown (thanks to STBX pulling out at the last second from negotiations for a Separation and Custody Agreement) and writing $500 checks every time I turn around is getting old and very painful. The two hour meeting between our L's on Tuesday burned up the last $500 dollar payment before it even hit my L's books.
If this goes to trial, I am going to be eaten alive just by the legal costs. I've been told by others having gone through this that I can expect my case can cost upwards of $100,000 before all is said and done.
This is costing STBX as well.
The biggest loser in all of this is our S's. I am really worried for their future if both their parents end up so entirely in hock for legal costs. And if STBX get's her way she'll be able to leech part of her expenses off my back. Either way, if this goes to court, my S's will not have anything put into reserve for them for higher education, even if a judge should order me to -- you can't get blood from a stone.
This is all because of a legal system that has my STBXW convinced she is going to automatically prevail in court -- so under those circumstances why should she have to compromise? Right?
I have a friend of mine who is fairly politically active. He and another guy recently founded a political advocacy group for Shared Parenting. I joined their growing group right after its launch but have not been able to attend any of the major functions due to work and child priorities. Last night I met a few of them at a local restaurant to help celebrate their success at getting the state legislature to begin funding special committees to review court custody guidelines in light of the Shared Parenting initiatives growing in other states (whew! run-on sentence, I know!). It is but a start for a very long legislative process, one that will hopefully lead to reforms in custody guidelines and legislation in support of fair and balanced parenting arrangements.
It is in talking with some of these other fathers and mothers (yes, mothers, as second wives get very caught up in this matter, I can tell you) that I heard a lot of horror stories, many of them personal tales. I am a bit in admiration of some of them since they recognize that what they are doing today will not likely bear any fruit in time to help their own situations -- but they do hope this will help future generations, and that is why they persist in this effort.
I feel like a bystander by comparison. I am so caught up right now in my own ordeal. I hope to glean a little insight from them to how all of this system is working or not. Perhaps I can pay it forward myself some day.
((((nc))))
Wondering how you are and how it went.. Update when you can
Hello, Tal, all my friends,
It's all over. We are done. The M has been officially ended.
(now) XW even fought with me this morning about the most petty cr*p, calling me right before my 9 AM conference call with my L. She had denied me from being able to pick up my S's early for today, since I took the day off -- told me I was not supposed to pick them up before 6 PM according to the draft of our unsigned separation agreement. So I relented in that, but this morning she came undone when she asked me again what my plans were for today and when I would pick up S4. I told her 6 PM.
Apparently S4 had heard that I was off and was expecting me to pick him up early today anyway, and (now) XW found herself back-peddling in front of him. So she tried to call me this very morning and make it sound like I was a horrible father for offering to spend a day with his sons but then reneged on it. I had none of it and when I reminded her of what she had said on Sunday, she got infuriated and demanded that I prove to her in writing that she said any such thing, namely her insistence that we adhere to the 6 PM timeline.
Apparently she's an absolute loon now, she blew up several times at me and even hung up before I could respond to her abusive rant. When she did call back I tried to explain to her that I had already made other arrangements for today, but that I would rearrange them entirely for S4's sake.
This was not a pretty conversation.
I realize I should never taken her call. Now we've had the big D I don't think I ever will again. She must have wanted so bad to stoke up her hatred for me -- so as to be able to carry out her day, given the major event taking place.
My L is thinking what I am already convinced is going to happen. That XW will now file for a temporary custody hearing. There are a number of things to consider, but I'm not holding out for much hope should this go to trial, which my L seems to think is now more likely.
I am trying not to hate her, folks. But it is becoming progressively harder to do.
I'm sorry NC. I'm thinking your W has kind of blamed you for everything and maybe anything going wrong in her life? Now after the D, I'm thinking she is going to realize at some point that was crazy. I can't imagine keeping up all that anger she has. It must be exhausting!!! And it hurts her more than anyone!!! Don't get me wrong, I don't feel sorry for her or anything, she's done this to herself, but honestly I think a year or 2 down the road you're going to be living a really happy, loving life and your W will not... (((((NC))))) Karen
I add my regrets too. Life itself isn't easy as it is and our now ex's just seem to go out of there way to make it worse. Have you been documenting everything in regards to the boys and your interactions with her over them? I pray that she realizes that she is using the boys against you and stops the craziness.
Hugs to you my friend.
kat
I can't imagine keeping up all that anger she has.
xW has proven that she is now taking after her mother in so many things. Like mother, like daughter,as the say. And as such, I have no doubts she will manage just fine keeping up her anger and blaming her ex-H's for all the misery in her life. MIL has turned that into lifelong pursuit, the only thing she has ever been successful at.
At one time I mourned the loss of the person I once loved to that sad malady that has infected xW's soul. But now, with the D final, even though I do feel a smidgen of compassion for her, I have been freed from thinking her fate is at all my concern any longer. In fact, I now have to look out for my own self -- and my family -- and keep moving forward once again. I do believe that God has taken her and her personal issues out of my concerns from now on. And as you have said, she's done this to herself.
Have you been documenting everything in regards to the boys and your interactions with her over them? I pray that she realizes that she is using the boys against you and stops the craziness.
I do too, naturally. As far as me documenting everything, I try to do what I can.
Thanks for the hugs, ladies.
<journaling> I took the boys to see the musical of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang yesterday. We had a very good time.
Also we bought three new fish for the new Aquarium I had set up earlier this week. This was a reward for S8 having had a very good week during his last week before his year-round school tracked-out. Unfortunately one of them died today because we had tempted fate, it would seem (two of them were male Blue Gourami's who decided they didn't want to get along in our small tank. That was a foolish gamble for me to take, but S8 had to have
two of them.)
I spoke with my brother last evening too, the one who is now separated from his W (my SIL). He seems okay, but he's not acknowledging that things are about as wrong in his family situation as they need be for him to start trying to turn his life around.
He also started inquiring into what my thoughts were for seeing other people, especially now my D is final. I get the impression that maybe he was trying to encourage himself to think he can now retake up his bachelorial lifestyle once again, and was feeling me out for the positives to his situation.
I told my brother that I try to keep such thoughts in check, because to do otherwise before I have healed my broken heart fully and completely -- and regained the full measure of myself as an individual -- is to court disaster. I don't think he was particularly encouraged to hear me say that I believe it would take me a long time, on the order of years, to heal my heart entirely from my xW's. I said that right now it would be unhealthy for me to take on the "baggage" of someone also still trying to recover from their ordeals -- and by the same toke, I don't want to bring any of my own excess baggage with me into any future relationships. I am just not someone any woman should be involved with as yet, and it would be unfair of me to ask someone to have to deal with me in that. I need to have jettisoned all that excess cr*p first -- and that takes time.
With God's help I will get there.
(But I would just as soon stay single the rest of my days as to risk another D in my life -- as I think the latter would
kill me.)
Also, I went to a picnic in a local park today with my (mostly single-parent) friends, allowing the children to play together. It was a beautiful day and very enjoyable.
Nc you will get there and you will be in a better place.
Love the idea of the picnic.. that's awesome.. too bad I couldn't have joined you!
It warms my heart to see you happy with your boys. You'll be a ok.
tal
too bad I couldn't have joined you!
I would have
loved your company! I wish all of you could have joined us. I am sure your two boys would have had loads of fun too.
You could also have brought your H so I could take the opportunity to knock some sense into his head.
(I'd like to say to him something like, "Whaddya'
thinkin', man?!? Just look at your lovely W there and count your lucky stars she loves you enough to put up with your foolishness!" )
I would have liked that too. But he would have disagreed with you, and would have no problem telling you that.
Yup, just another day in paradise...
Hope your doing ok, enjoy your boys, they are precious.
NC,
I hope you had a Happy Easter. Did you have the boys?
Hugs, Yoyo
Hi, Yoyo,
No, I didn't have the boys, but I did see them briefly after church service yesterday.
My Easter was quiet but good.
I hope everyone had a good Easter yesterday.