Well another one got locked
Here are the links to the last 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1702221&page=4&fpart=14http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1712747&page=5&fpart=13http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1719092&page=2&fpart=15http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1726284&page=1&fpart=15This is the middle of week 9.
Many wild swings from her mood/attitude, not sure of what to make of it other than possible confusion, which can be a good thing.
The week started off rough as she was really pushing about a custody agreement and working out the logistics of how to separate on Sat and Sun.
Monday we went to counseling and we started to get into venting about her anger
Tuesday she needed some space so I just did my own thing for me and the boys
"She was complaining/venting about her neck hurting (it had been bothering her for some time). My blackberry was in my locker so I didn't email her back until an hour later. I emailed to express that I cared and was concerned - but didn't offer any solutions (i.e. massage, etc.) like I had in the past. She responded in an email right away complaining/venting more about her neck."
Sure is putting allot of emphases on her neck, I am sorry but it sounds kind of like a set up.....setting you up for going out.
Is the friend with the daughter a male?
Where was the friend while she was getting her massage.... It could just be as she says but for some reason this just does not sound right.
Goes to work in a sexy outfit comes up with a reason to stay out
comes home relaxed and happy ...and she did not want sex?
Keep your eyes open man...
I appreciate the concern and the thought had crossed my mind. The reality is that if that's what she's doing, I can't control her. She has already filed for divorce and wants to move out.
I'm not concerned that she did not want sex as it is a bad time of the month for her. Frankly, after we had sex on each Thursday for the last 2 weeks, she had major swings to the negative in her attitude/behaviors. I would rather forgo the sex for now, just to keep building positive moments to drive the negative/hurt further into the distant memory.
I forget if the friend is a male or not, but the daugher is in her late 20's/early 30's. I'm relatively certain the friend is a female though.
As far as the outfit, she had worn it to work before. I thought it was sexy - it was just a nice white shirt with a low, for her, neck line (she wore a tank top underneath it) with dress pants, but I thought she looked really nice in it. She had for the past several weeks, since it's been so cold, just wearing turtlenecks or a sweater. I think most people would have just called it a nice outfit. I thought she looked sexy
In the past, I had driven myself crazy paranoid whenever she wanted to go out with the girls or do anything by herself. So I smothered her and made her feel trapped. My lack of self-esteem made me insecure of letting her do anything by herself.
I don't know for sure if there is something going on outside of our marriage. That's had been everyone's reaction that know about my situation. My wife and I talked about that at length during my panic. She thought I was cheating on her. I thought she had found someone else. We never talked about it though. We have now. I do believe that she hadn't and I know I haven't.
Right now, the only thing I can do is control what I do. Apparently, that's all that I could ever do. I was fooling myself in the past when I thought I could control her.
So I am living my life to enjoy it to its fullest. I want her in it, but I know I dont need her in it.
It was a good day yesterday.
I had a good session with my therapist to work through some more of my issues. I know we probably spent more time talking about my wife that I should have. I used it to get my therapists/our counselor's perspective on how our counseling session had went on Monday. I wanted to make sure I had picked up the important things that had come out of there so I can keep my 180 in line.
I left work a little early to go to the gym. It was a good thing since my wife wound up emailing me while I was at the gym. She was complaining/venting about her neck hurting (it had been bothering her for some time). My blackberry was in my locker so I didn't email her back until an hour later. I emailed to express that I cared and was concerned - but didn't offer any solutions (i.e. massage, etc.) like I had in the past. She responded in an email right away complaining/venting more about her neck.
Since I had started driving at that point, I called her - I'm trying to follow DB'ing but didn't want to wreck my truck. She vented/complained some more about her neck and how she couldn't get a chiropractor appointment. I empathized. I did bring up how I had thought her neck/back was bothering her when she laid down in front of me Tuesday nite when I was reading to the kids that I thought she had wanted a backrub. I told her since she didn't ask/say anything, I wasn't sure so I kept reading with my kids.
She said that she needed something at that time and I could have given her a backrub if I wanted to. I told her next time she should just ask. I didn't get into the whole mind reading thing - thought that was best to be done in person. She said she could really use one tonite.
She then said that she was trying to leave work so she would call me right back. I told her she could if she wanted to or we could just talk at home.
She did call me to say that she really needed some relief. Since her friend's daughter was a massuese, she asked if it was alright to call her to find out if she could work out her neck (I'm pretty good massaging back/legs/feet/arms, but lousy with necks). She said that when she dropped off our youngest and she could start dinner if I needed her to. I told her to just go take care of her neck and I'll worry about dinner for me and the boys.
I got home with my oldest and helped him get his homework done. She pulled into the garage as I was taking something out into the garage. She stepped out of the car and was wearing an outfit that I thought looked very hot. I let out a wow. She just smiled and gave me a hug and kiss on the check. I got our youngest out of her car and we went inside.
When we were inside, I told her she looked really nice in that outfit (it's part of my 180 as she felt I never noticed nor gave her any compliments). I asked if it was a new outfit. She said she had worn it a few times before but she said I never seemed to notice or at least say anything. She said she had worn it when we went down to South Carolina for my friend's wedding last year.
That was something she had raised as an issue in the past - where we went down to the wedding and she wore very sexy outfits. She felt that I hadn't paid any attention to her nor cared whether she was there or not. I didn't argue that as soon as we had checked into the hotel room we were intimate, but figure that wasn't going to get me anywhere.
I told her I had noticed when she wore it to the wedding, but in the past I would just say wow and smile in my head. I know that really didn't do her any good as she didn't know it. But that was then, this is now.
She asked again if I needed her to start dinner for me and the boys. I told her that I'll take care of it and would most likely take the boys to a pizza shop that me and the boys liked. She had gotten sick of it as, I didn't realize it, we went there almost every Friday for 3-4 years. We hadn't gone back there with her since she dropped the bomb. Me and the boys like it because the owner really is kids friendly and treats us well. Another bonus is that the girls that work there look like they could work at Hooters, and dress like it, especially during the summer (maybe that's why she didn't like it).
I might have crossed the line when I asked how long the massage would take. She said it would be between 1 to 1.5 hours. She seemed a little urked by it, but whatever. I just wanted to know so I could plan my evening.
Me and the boys had a great dinner, the owner and girls that work there were really glad to see us again. We got home and I gave the kids a bath. We skipped reading as each of the boys wanted to watch a different video (as would be expected with a 4 year difference between the boys). I played with each individually while the other watched their show.
I put them to bed a little after 8:30. My 7 year old's comment about how I am acting differently was still weighing on me so I started to feel a little sad/anxious. I wound up doing some stuff not related to our situation and I wound up relaxing watching one of my shows that she didn't like (The Unit).
She didn't get home till almost 9:30. I did get a little anxious around 9, but re-read some of my thread which got me relaxed/focused again. When she got home, I was doing something in the kitchen. She smiled at me and I asked how did it go. She said her neck felt so much better and her whole body was relaxed.
She mentioned that she had wished that we had chairs to sit outside with as she thought the fresh air felt good tonite. I thought it was a little windy, but told her that I had pulled our patio chairs out of the garage last weekend. She asked if I wanted to sit out on the patio for a bit. I told her sure and asked if she wanted a drink. I put a sweatshirt on, grabbed a couple of beers for us and set up the chairs outside.
She came out and we talked about her massage for a little while until the wind picked up too much. She told me about how the massage was in the girl's house and the massage table was setup up in one of the bedrooms. She told me that during the massage all she had on was her thong. We joked about her being in another girl's bedroom essentially naked. I didn't really press this line of joking as she had raised in the past that it made her feel uncomfortable/cheap when I talked about her underwear (or lack there of).
It got cold and we decided to go inside. We sat on the love seat to finish our beer. I noticed she was still cold so I asked her if she wanted me to warm her up. She shifted so she could lean against me as I hugged her. It was nice as we talked and drank our beer. After a few minutes, she wound up resting her knee on top my mine as she was sitting indian style.
Her foot was also resting against mine. I caressed her foot/leg lightly. She moved it slightly so I took that as a cue to stop. She told me that she was just shifting/get more comfortable and it was ok to keep caressing her feet/leg as it felt good. She wound up resting her legs on my lap as we talked. I did stop after a few bit as I didn't want it to be too much.
She told me that her mom can watch the kids this weekend so we could go out. Very confusing considering what she said last weekend.... I asked her if she could wear the outfit that she had on today. She smiled and said she would if that's what I wanted. I just smiled and said yes.
We talked until it was after 10:30 - very late for her as she normally goes to bed at 9:30 - and I could tell she was getting tired. I got up and said it looked like she was getting tired and thought she wanted to go to bed. She agreed and went to the kitchen to get a glass of water. As she was about to go upstairs, we hugged and kissed on the check again.
We got ready for bed together in our bathroom. She said good nite as she went to the spare bedroom.
I stayed up to watch television until about 11:30 and went to bed.
It was a good nite.
Stuck's advice/insight was at the tail end of my locked thread. I thought it were pretty important to keep in front for me as well as helping others.
You know you could save alot of money if you really paid attention to what all of us had said here. But you keep repeating the same mistakes.
Stop with all the relationship talks once and for all. Who would want to stay in a marriage when only negatives get brought up?
Here's what you need to do. When your W brings up the thought that she doesn't/can't believe the changes are real, blah blah blah, then just shrug your shoulders and say "that's up to you. I know their real." and then just walk off. You don't have to keep justifying it to her.
Second, when she brings up the thought that you should have known to do this and that. Just tell her you're not a mind reader any more than she is. If something's bothering her, tell you. She'll bring up how you never did so in the past, then stop her right there. Tell her that was the past and this is now. All she has to do is tell you and you understand much more now. Then stop. You don't have to justify anymore than that.
I had to give my W the mindreading talk and after that, she stopped griping about stuff. She knows she has to tell me when something is bothering her and I am always available to her.
You don't have to beat her over the head with it.
Again, all these issues are her. Stop appeasing her and following her around like a dog looking for her to throw you a bone. There's your 2x4. Stop all physical stuff on your part, even hugs, because in all you posts you keep initiating and you're driving her away. Think of yourself as like a James Bond character where women come to you rather than the other way around. Build up your confidence.
She's acting conflicted right now, but I can see she's rapidly making her mind towards the negative because you just won't stop. Even watching the Fireproof video, if she came off saying it was cruel for you two to watch it, kindly remind her that she wanted to see it too and that you are not the cause of her anger and frustration. The past is.
She is in total midlife crisis mode with her wild mood swings and irritability. You just have to ride them out as best you can.
With the verbal jiu-jitsu, you have to deflect her blaming you and reflect the issues back on her. When she keeps saying "I can't believe" or "You should have..." Deflect those comments with "I understand you can't believe...but I believe it" or "I should have before and that was before. I know better now." Then walk away. The key is to stop before she starts going off on the same rant she's been spewing for the past 9 weeks.
Oh and BTW, 9 weeks is a drop in the bucket. People have been on here for 5 years still going through this and I just hit a year. How do we get through it? Patience and prayer. Lots and lots of prayer. Sometimes jokingly I'd pray that my W wasn't going to be anything stupid today, but those light moments are what keeps you going day after day.
Oh and in terms of custody of your kids, I would split them 50/50. YOU can be just as caring a parent as she is and even more so because of what you've learned through all this. She is the one who is the unfit parent right now.
I still go for my original suggestion that you should separate households. You would have to anyway. Give her some real space and split the kids 50/50 between you. Show her you've got balls and that you are every bit the man you're claiming to be.
She'll complain saying that you're so cruel, etc. But hey, she started this. It's time to start doing things on your terms not hers.
Here's a link to a MLC article I found to be interesting.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/index.php?term=mid-life&print=1I even sent this to my W even though they suggest not to, but she didn't complain about it, so it usually means she's read it and is fine with it. Your W is not at that stage. She still believes you and everyone else is the cause of her problems and not her. It's time you not let her MLC selfishness run your life. Live how you want to live your life. That's how it was before you got married. You never had to answer to anyone. Show her that man again. Then she'll have no choice but to look within. And that's what you want her to do.
I told my W that instead of constantly complaining about what she doesn't want, try figuring out what it is you do want. Your W will say she wants her freedom and to be out of the marriage. Stop her and ask her again what do you want and ask her to be specific. Does she want to go back to school, get a new job, new boyfriend, etc. I even recommended to my W that she get a journal and write down her thoughts and goals. Again, have her look within.
Spellfire's triangle analgy of the nice guy/macho guy/integrated guy was pretty powerful. I wanted to be able to keep it in front for me as well as others.
Please read what stuck wrote two times, it's good advice. Try to take it to heart.
Now a little visualization exercise. Think of a triangle:
* On the bottom left point is the nice guy. The nice guy depends on others for their emotional well-being. He is hurt by anything bad said about him. He is needy, clingy, emotionally enmeshed with his partner, apologizes constantly, is indecisive and constantly looking to others to make decisions, big and small. This guy lets others call the shots, and then feels victimized. He blames others for this, since it couldn't possibly be his fault, right?
* On the bottom right is the macho man. This guy despises the wuss, and (being completely out of touch) attempts to compensate by being a hard ass. He sees himself as being a realist, but in fact he is just a stubborn jerk. When he takes a hit, he hits back. His defenses are up, he lets nobody in (not even his closest loved ones) because he doesn't want the world to see that deep down he is actually scared and lacks self esteem.
* At the top of the triangle is the integrated man. This guy is brimming with confidence and self esteem and therefore is able to let people in without fear that they will see something they don't like. When attacked, the assault just bounces off, not because his defenses are up, but because he is unaffected and uninfluenced by the negativity of others. People don't see the integrated man as a "tough guy" or stubborn, because he feels no need to defend himself, or hit back. He is compassionate of others, because he makes sure his own emotional needs are well met. He is no push over either. He sets boundaries, and enforces them via his actions. Men in this state are not easily affected by the emotions of those around him. They are however, fully aware of their feelings and allow themselves to feel and express what they feel. Integrated men know what they want, and are decisive by nature. They are able to accept criticism with an open mind and ear, since they feel no need to defend themself for being themself.
The point of this exercise is to show that it's not "Nice Guy vs. Tough Guy". Both of those states are two sides of the same coin, IF your self esteem is low. Your goal is to become a BETTER MAN. Draw a bar beside the triangle. This bar represents self-esteem/self-awareness/PMA. How would you rate yourself on a scale of 1-10 right now?
Tip: Gradually get rid of all the books and videos and everything she thinks you are using to try to save the M (just stash em somewhere and read them only when she's not around). Get some books about other hobbies and dig into those instead when she is around. Meanwhile, keep GAL and working on your PMA, and "whatever" attitude. She thinks the changes are "right from the playbook", so it is time to get rid of the perceived playbooks and show her the changes are real.
Confused,
Sounds like you did have a good night. I know you are getting mixed signals but at least you are getting some attention by her at times. I wish my W would show me some affection like you are seeing! Keep it up and keep the PMA!
LonelyRzr
What I'm trying to keep in front of me is that I am choosing to have a good day/nite. Regardless of how my wife acts/behaves, I am deciding to still enjoy my time. If she wants to enjoy it with me, then great, if not, I will still enjoy my moments.
Like theroadback had tried to highlight, I could have chose to be anxious/suspicious for the entire time my wife was out getting get her neck worked on. If I went that route, I would have chosen to have a bad nite and would have had a bad attitude that my wife would have seen when she came home (no matter how much I would have tried to hide it). I am sure she would not have been thinking about me or my negative/painful emotions while she was out.
Instead, I chose to feel compassion for my wife as I know her neck and back has been bothering her. I know I can help her back with a massage, but I am comfortable with my "short comings" that I can not help her neck with a massage.
I decided to take the time to go someplace that my boys and I enjoy to go to eat. Then I decided to play with them in and enjoy the time with them until it was time for them to go to bed.
After they went to bed, my wife wasn't home yet. Again, I could have chose to be anxious/hurt that she wasn't home yet. Instead I chose to do things for me to make me happy. It would not have made me happy being anxious/hurt that my wife wasn't home yet.
Instead I watched a show that I wanted to watch and did things that made me feel good about myself (i.e. putting some dishes away, reading, etc.).
So what I'm coming to the realization is that my wife doesn't hold the key to my happiness, I do. I want my wife to participate in my happiness and if she doesn't I may be disappointed, but I can still be happy.
I know it sounds like motherhood and apple pie type of stuff. If I read this 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have believed it. Nor if you told me even 2 weeks ago that I would be writting something like this in my situation without my wife deciding to stop the divorce or give the relationship another try, I would have said you were crazy.
Now I see that saving the relationship/marriage involves saving myself first. I can't do anything while I'm wallowing in the muck. I must survive and thrive first.
What a huge turnaround man. It is like seeing a new person writing here. Whatever you are doing, keep doing it!
What a huge turnaround man. It is like seeing a new person writing here. Whatever you are doing, keep doing it!
Thanks Spellfire.
I know I couldn't have made it this far without people like you on this forum. I know I'm not done yet, there is still a lot of work to do and it's only day 1 into this phase of my turnaround. I am still on a mission of saving my marriage, but I will be doing it on solid footing - me.
So do I move up to orange belt yet?
Prove you can maintain this PMA for a week and I will promote you to it lol.
So do I move up to orange belt yet?
That is a tiny 2x4 for you for temperature taking. Make sure it is not a habit of yours, even on this BB.
But I agree with spellfire. Your most recent post does sound a lot more focused on yourself. So continue in that direction.
AN
One of the things that has helped me is something I had posted at towards the end of AFWAW's locked thread
"I'm not sure what kind of music that you are listening to now, but part of my breakaway from the Mr. Nice Guy persona had been to listen to stronger music. I found I had been listening to soft, touchy, feely music as I was down and it was keeping me down. I have started to listen to more upbeat, stronger music to keep me focused. For example, depending on your taste, Kanye West - Stronger or Poison - Open Up and Say Ah album, etc.
You need to create an enviornment that you're not going wallow around in the muck, but an enviornment that will boast you up."
Others had posted other band/album options as well.
I had noticed, that most of us are around 40 here so I've been listening to more 80's Freestyle and rap music too (can't do the rap music with the boys in the truck though). Biggie Small has some pretty powerful stuff too.
Classical and Smooth Jazz are my "feel good" music; probably because it is so different than what my W listens to.
My W really gets into Rap and Hip Hop, so I can't listen to a single note of that without feeling a twang of loneliness.
Different strokes, eh?
Yep you definitely get the orange belt from the DB dojo.
There were three key things that happened last night that you should jot down mentally:
1) You told her you were not a mindreader which she actually listened to by clarifying about the foot rub.
2) She initiated the spending time together and not you. And you would have been fine either way if she didn't.
3) You were doing things that made YOU happy and not her.
Great job!
I wouldn't worry about an OM in the picture. Your W has been very good at telling you what she's doing and doing what you've asked her. When my W was going through the OM stage, she was secretive, defensive and quick to anger like she was just looking for a fight.
But your W has been very transparent which is why we all believe that you have a great shot at saving your M.
Keep it up!
Confused,
Way to go man! I need some of what your having because I am heading that way but just getting on board. Keep it up and I hope to be there with ya soon.
LonelyRzr
Yep you definitely get the orange belt from the DB dojo.
There were three key things that happened last night that you should jot down mentally:
1) You told her you were not a mindreader which she actually listened to by clarifying about the foot rub.
2) She initiated the spending time together and not you. And you would have been fine either way if she didn't.
3) You were doing things that made YOU happy and not her.
Great job!
I wouldn't worry about an OM in the picture. Your W has been very good at telling you what she's doing and doing what you've asked her. When my W was going through the OM stage, she was secretive, defensive and quick to anger like she was just looking for a fight.
But your W has been very transparent which is why we all believe that you have a great shot at saving your M.
Keep it up!
Stuck808,
Thanks for the optimism relative to saving the marriage. I'm still not feeling optimistic about the marriage but I am gaining more confidence that I will be able to be happy and enjoy life whatever direction it heads down.
I do get sad about my kids, but I know that the way best thing for them as well is for me to be strong - not a nice guy nor the macho guy, but the integrated man.
I am sorry to hear about your situation and her behavior. What my wife seems to have been trying to do though is to push my buttons to get me mad/upset. My therapist/our counselor and I feel like she's trying to do that so she can justify staying mad/angry. It is hurtful when she does things like that, it's starting to seem silly/chlidish to me now when she does things like that.
You have really given me a lot of tools/advice on how to handle these situations. I do appreciate your input and support.
Thanks!
Confused,
Way to go man! I need some of what your having because I am heading that way but just getting on board. Keep it up and I hope to be there with ya soon.
LonelyRzr
You can easily have some of what I've been having. It's all the support and advice that has been in my threads/posts.
What it has really come down to is finding it within yourself to decide when you are done feeling sorry for yourself. Dig yourself out of the muck. The only person that could possible be happy about being in the muck is the person who put you there.
It's similar to what happened to me when I was younger. When I was growing up in the projects in Brooklyn, I had a very hard time as I was the clear minority. I was also over weight and wore "welfare" glasses. It was a common occurence where I had been beaten up/mugged/shot at/taunted so I cried almost everyday.
When I started 6th grade, my mom had finally bought me a football. We didn't have any money but it was something I had really wanted so it was a big deal. The first day I went outside with it, I got mugged and beat up and it was taken from me. At that point I decided I was done crying and feeling sorry for myself. It's hard to fight back when you're crying.
Unfortunately, the childhood coping mechanism that I put into place was I shut down all my emotions and kept myself just mad/angry. That was the last day I was beat up or felt sad, but didn't realize that was also the last day I had felt anything.
That's how I went through life to survive all the hardships . I was homeless for a period of time, ran out of money for college and had to quit to save money (I did return to finish), friends getting shot/killed - all before I finished college. I used to drink a lot - particularly through college and the first few years of working. That was the only time I was able to "feel" anything. I actually started drinking at 12.
I would just go out with "frat rat" girls and "club/party" girls through out the years. My wife was the first girl I had dated that was not one that would jump on top of a bar and start to strip (like from the movie Coyote Ugly). I allowed myself to be vulnerable to her, but I let my childhood coping mechanisms take over when shortly after we were married we thought she had less than a year to live. Fortunately it worked out to be a false alarm but it shocked me back to the mode of not feeling anything because I was afraid of the loss/pain.
That was the start of the the emotionaly neglect for my wife and kids. Her bomb shocked me back to reality.
I understand now that living involves feeling emotions and only you can control how you want to live your life. I can easily decide that this is too much to handle and shut everything down again but that is not how I want to live my life. I want to enjoy life. I realized I missed so much, myself as well as with my wife and kids. I'm not going to miss anymore of life.
That realization has come to me over the several weeks of my therapy and rereading all the advice/input that is in my threads. I've also been reading the books that have been suggested to me.
What it comes down to is that life is a choice. Only you can chose how you want to live. I made the wrong choice in the past. I would be a fool to make the wrong choice for the now and the future.
What it comes ultimately down to is me.
She is testing the new you. I wrote to robx about this in his thread. I used a wall analogy (not to be confused with putting up emotional walls), but it is also referred to as being a rock in Hold on to Your NUTS. Here it is again, maybe it is applicable to you now:
When she says things like that, I believe she is not telling you "the writing is on the wall" as much as testing you to see if you really have changed. Your job is to prove (via action ie. not overreacting to hurtful comments) that you truly have changed and you can pass any test she presents.
Think of it this way...you are a wall. Women need to know the wall is strong, safe, and secure. Previously she found the wall was weak and she was able to punch holes in it at will with hurtful words. The wall would crumble (react) for the most part. now you have figured out why the wall is weak and have reinforced it, patched it, braced...however you want to think of it, but the key being you have truly changed. She has surely noticed that the wall that let her down before is certainly looking much stronger. How does she know for sure though? She is gonna go test it out and see if she can punch those holes again.
Your job is to expect the punches, anticipate them and be ready to take them. Okay so here she comes with a good solid punch…
she wants to see if this wall is gonna hold for her…
"We've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could we be different and have a successful, happy marriage?" *insert batman style sound effect here*
Pretty hurtful thing to say to someone who is devastated by the separation. So what are you gonna do? React and get in a fight (old crumbly wall) or (knowing it is a test of your resolve and not necessary an assessment of the relationship) stand strong and prove you are no longer going to get sucked into the old patterns?
You asked if you have to agree so as to avoid conflict, and said it's hard to remain neutral when she’s knocking the R so much. Reframe that assumption. She is not knocking the relationship, she is testing your resolve to truly be a different person.
When these kinds of comments come up, don't get mad. Realize you are "talking a little test". Feel those competitive instincts kicking in? You can pass this test. If you recognize it as a test of your resolve it doesn’t feel nearly as bad. This has helped me tremendously in my R. I used to get sooo defensive, now I can defuse just about anything she throws at me. Not only is it a test to me, it has almost become a thrill, because it feels so good when you see the surprise on her face that you did not fall back into the old habits. One time my W got really upset, since she made all kinds of assumptions about how I would handle a certain situation. I stood strong, explained to her my position as she fought the tears, then without even asking or telling her, went over and gave her a big follow up hug. Minutes later she was on the phone taking care of the issue like nothing had ever gone wrong.
This is where boundaries come in. The wall analogy actually fits in rather well with boundaries too since it is one lol. Make your position known, just don't let her punch holes in your wall.
Spell,
Great analogy! I will print that out.
Thanks,
Barry
I thought I was going to lose my shot at an orange belt tonite.
I had woke up this morning and decided to have a good day. Thought it could be the start of a trend - two good days in a row.
It started off well. My wife woke me up as she usually did so I can hop in the shower while she is doing her make up and hair. We chatted and joked lightly while I was shaving. Boys were up by the time I had gotten out of the shower. Before I left for work, I gave my youngest a hug and a kiss but then he chased me down for another one. My wife and I hugged good-bye and kissed on the check. I said "Have a great day today!" and I left for work. I usually say that in the morning before I leave, but I actually felt it then.
My wife wound up calling and leaving a message for me towards the end of the day (I didn't take the call) as my oldest is off school for a school holiday so she wanted to know if I was off that day. I emailed her my work holiday schedule and told her to let me know which day it was because I may be able to take off. She replied back right away that I was off as well, as a bonus it was on his birthday! I was pumped about that since it would give him and I some extra one on one time (it's tough to have since the birth of our youngest and this situation compounded it).
She then emailed me a menu of a resturant of that we had talked about last nite that she wanted to go to. I emailed me her back (after 15 minutes) that it really made me hungry since I missed lunch. She emailed me back right away that she was making steak, twice baked potatoes and veggies for dinner tonite. I emailed her back right away that sounded yummy and I'll see her at home.
She wound up calling me as she was leaving work and we chatted about miscelaneous stuff.
I had made myself a captain morgan and coke while I helped my oldest do his homework. When she got home from work, we hugged and kissed on the check again. I could tell she was stressing about as my youngest was really giving her a hard time. I took him from her and the three of us sat at the kitchen table at ate some chips as the two boys drew pictures.
My wife was making dinner and I could tell she was still stressed. I didn't let it bother me, nor did I comment, as I just enjoyed my time with the boys. Then I noticed she pulled out the martini glass. I asked her to make an extra blue cheese stuffed olive for me. She did.
We ate dinner and had some light conversation. She seemed pretty stressed/irritated about her day. I just let her vent as I empathized with her. My oldest wound up spilling a drink towards the end of dinner. I started to clean up, but apparently it wasn't fast enough for her as she snapped at me about don't just sit there holding the towel. I told her relax, I got it as I wiped it up. I didn't let her bait me into an argument nor upset me.
After the kids' bath, I saw she was down in the den. I didn't go in and just took care of some stuff for me. I called the boys when it was time to read books. My youngest came out right away to grab his books, but my wife said she was showing my oldest some pictures on the computer. I poked my head in and she showed me the pictures as well, then she started to show me other stuff on facebook.
I read the books to the boys, she sat down in the living room with us. Then while the boys and I were watching there show, I could see she was reading some official looking mail. I could tell it was agitating her - I assumed it was something related to our custody mediation that was coming up on March 30th.
We put the kids to bed, I came downstairs and saw it was exactly that. I went to do something else in a different room but when she came down she showed me the letter and said I had gotten the same thing. I just oh, I didn't see it yet. I asked her if she wanted to watch Lost. She said we could do that or talk about custody. I had really started to scramble as she continued to talk - I ws trying to remember the verbal ju-jitsu to avoid talking about this one. Fortunately my youngest came out because he had to go to the bathroom.
After I helped him, I went right to the television to grab the Lost DVD. She said she would rather watch something shorter, so I fired up TIVO instead. We watched Two and Half men (a show we watched betfore we started with Lost). We did stop in the middle to talk about various light topics. She was acting really tired, but I could also sense that she was stressed/agitated. I smiled inside as I thought it was a nice change of pace as she's waiting for me to make up my mind.
At the end of the show, she said she was going to bed as she was really tired (it was only 9:15 PM). We kissed on the check good nite and she went up to bed. This now breaks the streak of being intimate two Thursday's in a row. Hopefully, this will also break the streak of major setbacks/blowups two weeks in a row as well.
Her mom is suppose to watch the kids this weekend, so I'm looking foward to a fun weekend. If my wife wants to have fun too, then great, if not, I don't need her to have a fun weekend.
I have some thoughts, but could use some good specific examples of verbal ju-jitsu if she brings up the topic of deciding on a custody agreement again. Anyone have any suggestions/examples?
Nice dodging.
Next time she brings up the custody issue, ask her, "what do you think is the most fair agreement to me and you that would give our boys the quality of life they deserve?" Throw the question back at her so that she has to do the thinking and is not going to bait you into an argument.
If you had said something of what you think the terms should be, she would have argued about it no matter what you said. The thing is to get her questioning herself. Get her thinking, really thinking about the consequences.
In the meantime, you should have what you feel is a fair custody in your head in case she really presses you for it. But only tell her after she has told you what she thinks first.
Do it without emotion, just very matter-of-factly. Before you do, remind her again that you still believe in the M and that in order to give your kids the rich, nurturing family they deserve, you believe in re-newing the marriage. That is what you want and what you believe. Tell her that, you love her enough that if it is her wish to leave, then you cannot hold her back. Then state your demands. If she tries to interrupt, then gently stop her and say that you'd like to finish.
All this should be said very calmly as if it were strictly business.
In the past you had broken down and pleaded, but now you say it with an even keel she might get thrown for a loop.
Thanks Stuck!
I think you had given that one to me before but I couldn't come up with it when she asked me last nite
I know she was iritated about it last nite. This morning as we got ready for work in the bathroom, she said that she couldn't sleep when she got to the spare bedroom. She said she almost came back down to talk. I told her she could have if she wanted to - a small lie as I'm sure she wanted to talk about custody
Then she asked what I wound up doing last nite after she went to bed. I told her I worked on my MP3 player (it was locked up but I got it working again) and watched some television in our room. She asked if I looked at the letter. I said very matter of factly, that it didn't really seem to say anything of value.
I'm sure she thinks I'm just trying to avoid the issue and is getting upset.
Your suggestion is a good one as since she's the one who wants to move down the divorce path, she should come up with something.
I'm still going to have a good day today!
I had an early meeting today so I'm a little late on my journaling. It helps me keep the days straight so I can review my situations and how I handled them to keep my progress going forward.
After I had gotten ready for work, I went downstairs to the family room. My youngest was sitting on my wife's lap on the sofa and my oldest was sitting on the love seat. It seemed a little odd so I walked over to my wife to find out what was going on. My wife wound up whispering in my ear that the two boys were going after each other again and my oldest didn't want to brush his teeth before he went to school.
In the past I would have yelled at my oldest to go brush his teeth but I wound up using my new approach of talking with him and off he went, up to brush his teeth. I actually surprised myself how well it worked. So I was really feeling good.
I packed his lunch bag and as I was gathering my stuff, I heard my wife yell OWWWW. I went over to her, she was holding her left breast and said our youngest smacked it (he's been punching and hitting a lot lately). She said she was surprised I didn't hear the smack. I told her all I heard was her yell and I asked if she was ok. She said her nipple stung. I was touching her back lightly and smiled and asked her if she wanted me to kiss it better. Probably crossed the line, but I was still smiling when she said no. I still thought it was funny. I just gave her a kiss on the check and walked away.
She got up and she started to complain about how her period was going. She was saying how it has just been spotting since Tuesday, and usually that happens during the first 2-3 days and then its heavy on the 4-5 days and then light again on the last 2 days. She said at least if it was heavy on the weekend it would be easier to manage. I tried to be compassionate, but I wound up asking if she was still able to wear the outfit I liked on Weds for our date this weekend. She said she would. In hindsight that was selfish of me, but I guess I just have to record that as another lesson.
She wound up fixing the collar on my shirt - she knows I like it when she does that. We kissed on the check when I left.
I used to over analyze every morning as would be concerned about what she thought or was thinking. Now I really don't care. Does it cross my mind, sure, I would be lying if I didn't. Does it get me anxious - just a little, but it doesn't get me sad or hurt.
I felt much more confident today as well when I had to give my weekly presentation to my boss. I think it showed as he seemed happy with my results. He knows about my situation, but he has been unrelentless even during the last several weeks. There were times over the last week I wanted to just storm out of the meeting saying I have bigger issues/problems to worry about than the stuff at work. This time, when he did press me, I felt I was able to handle the questions with much more poise and confidence.
I'm going to try and leave work early again to talk with the retired married couple. I had asked my wife about doings something on St. Patricks Day, but she hasn't expressed any interest/intent so yesterday I called a couple of my buddies (who don't know about my situation) to go grab some beers on Tuesday so I'm looking forward to that.
It's still a good day!
Just got text from my wife
How r u ...i m feelng yucky this afternoon
How long should I let her wait?
I'm on my to my friends house
Do what feels right. Personally I'd give it an hour or so, and respond "I'm good, sorry you're not feeling well
"
But then again, what do I know, I would probably jump up and down if my wife sent me a text at all.
I text her back about 2 hours later - a little longer than I planned
Oh well, whatever
She just got home I was playing basketball with my oldest son and I missed her call
She's grumpy as it sounds like her cramps are bad and she had a tough day at work
I'm still having a good day as both boys seem to be on a positive day and I'm still feeling good
I had a really good visit with my friends. They were both surprised how I rounded the corner in my woe's me attitude (I saw them last Thursday). They were both really amazed at my change. My friends wife reminded me how a few weeks ago, they were both telling me to be me but I didn't know who that was anymore.
They were both extremely impressed/proud of how I found me again. They have both known me longer almost as long as I have known my wife. They saw how I was not exactly the person they knew a long time ago, nor the same as the emotionless person over the past several years, but really see how I've evolved into a much fuller person. I felt really good with my visit. I only got sad when I shared with them what my oldest said to me the other night. It was a great visit, as it felt like just a nice visit with friends, not a visit for me to vent/cry.
However, did she have a bad day. She had cramps real bad and the audit she was suppose to complete today didn't get done because she didn't get the report or data in time.
She was really stressing. We talked in the car on the way to dinner (our Friday tradition is to go out for dinner as a family). The boys were talking and having a good time with each other in the back while we talked.
She vented and fumed about all the mishaps and frustrations of the day. I empathized and tried to comfort her. She actually cried about how bad her day was.
I was tried to be compassionate but I didn't let her mood get me down. We got to the resturant and I had an awesome dinner. Great seafood and pasta. The boys really like their pasta with cheese sauce (a very high end macaroni and cheese). She had a steak tip wrap, which she said was very good. She ordered a martini and I had my captain morgan and coke.
On the way home, she was really uncomfortable as she had cramps really bad and she felt bloated and stuffed. She actually unbuttoned her pants to feel more comfortable in the car. I joked to make sure she remembered to button them back up - one time her button broke and she wound up showing her thong to everyone in the parking lot. She laughed and just said she felt so bloated she doubted her pants we go anywhere.
When we got home, I changed both kids to their pj's to go to bed.
After we tucked them in and she said prayers with them, she came into our bedroom and said she was going to bed as she had enough of today. I gave her a light hug and kiss on the check and wished her goodnite and hope she felt better.
She went to bed at 8:55 PM. She had a bad day.
I do feel bad for her for having a bad day. I do love her and do not want her to be feeling that bad/sad. My day was actually pretty good and I still am happy about how my day went. I am a little conflicted as I don't feel guilty about that. Should I?
You did great!
You have nothing to feel guilty about. If she wants to feel bad and cranky, that's up to her. After all, if you guys D, she won't have you around to vent to and soothe her anyway.
You are getting to understand what detaching means.
Especially since she's cramping, don't engage her in any talks even if she pushes you to it. I think anything you say is going to be taken aggressively and with anger.
It's great that you were compassionate towards her and didn't go overboard. That's the path you have to continue on.
You notice even last night she didn't push any serious talks because you didn't goad her by contributing. She didn't press the issue, so that's also a good thing.
Just keep up with the positive interactions.
Thanks Stuck,
I guess that's one thing that is going hold me back on my orange belt. I still need some reassurance that I'm handling it right and heading down the right path.
It just feels odd being detached, as part of the issue in the past as that she felt that I was detached and didn't care. I think I'm begining to see that the empathy and compassion type of detachment is different from the feel no emotion detachment that I had when I was depressed.
So much more to learn and feel. I do feel like I'm raising the bar everyday vs. burying it during the first several weeks.
Thanks for the feedback and encouragement
Still on a roller coaster.
We were talking about what we were going to do tonite when the kids stay over her mom's house. We talked about a few options and then at the end she said she wants us to find time to talk this weekend. I'm sure its about the custody. Fortunately we got to the store just at that time so I ducked that one for now
I'm anxious but will find time to review what was suggested here.
We're suppose to go to dinner and then a piano bar. Sounds like it should be fun. I'm still going have a good time tonite when we go out. It will be up to her to decide if she wants to have fun or not
Any encouragement or luck or suggestions will be appreciated
It was a nice day today
We got done running our errands and I played basketball and T-ball with my boys. My wife tried to pick a couple of fights with some jabs but my wall held strong
She wasn't feeling well so she went to take a nap while the boys and I played
I woke her up to tell her the boys and I were going to the driving range.
I a little anxious of her saying she wants to take time to talk this weekend when the boys are staying at her moms this weekend. I'm sure its about custody.
I'm trying to prepare my wall for that by reviewing all the advice that are in my threads. I will be ok
Its a good day
sorry about not responding to your post, confused, on my thread. I have been pretty sick lately.
Just to let you know, I have been divorced (not Gods divorce) since Oct of last year. I was all over the place but am now focusing on my family and treating my ex as if I still was married to her. Let me be more clear, I dont let her know that I consider us married still and dont have any expectations but I treat her with respect (except for some stupid mistakes I made) and as a partner. She has softened somewhat to me this past week since I quit considering her, in my heart, being more of an enemy. I know that a person can say pleasant things but vocal inflections and physical mannerisms can give it away. So I try to treat her as if she was a gift (and she is).
Whatever she has to say to you about the custody, try to not react negatively. Think long term.
Praying for you!
Don't know what color ranks you are familiar with, but we will go white, yellow, orange, purple, blue, green, brown, black (got it off a kempo website).
I'm giving you your orange belt early, since she tested you and you didn't crumble. To earn purple, you are going to have to come to terms with the process she is pushing. You need to do this so that you can handle it cleanly with her. That means that when she makes time to discuss it, you don't freak out and backslide.
It is going to be tough, but your job is work on not taking it personally.
Hey you are an inspiration to me right now! I know all about "choosing to be happy" and it really is a choice. When we consciously decide to be happy, it works wonders.
Kudos to you confusedinpa. Right now you are my hero and I am taking your words of wisdom to heart.
Abby
*********
a cold overcast day in socal
Thanks for the support
We had a lot of fun at the driving range. I called her on the way back to figure out what we were going to do for lunch.
She was doing laundry and had lunch ready for us when we got home. She said she was washing clothes for tonite. I smiled and asked if she was going to wear the outfit from Weds that I liked. She said that's what she was trying to do.
We had a nice lunch and I told her I was in the mood for a dessert drink. She suggested pina colodas as I have been hankering them for several days. I went out to get a pineapple and picked up flowers on the way home
My youngest was taking a nap so I did some painting (knocking off the honey do list) once I got home. she made the drinks and then went to get ready for tonite
When she came down from her shower, I surprised her with the flowers. She smiled and said they looked really nice. She then said thank you.
Hopefully this will help get her in the mood to have fun tonite. I will regardless
We went out and had a very nice dinner. It started off very nice but she seemed a little irked. I know she wants to talk about custody but I'm not going to bring it up if she doesn't. Not sure if that's going cost me my purple belt
It seemed like she had tried to pick a fight a couple of times during dinner. First time she mad a comment that I should cut the string beans into smaller pieces instead of jamming them in my mouth like a cave man (it was a really nice place - dinner was $135). I just laughed it off and picked up my knife
When I ordered a second drink she made a comment of how before I never drank and now it seems like I drink all the time. I just said that was then, this is now and left it at that as I enjoyed my drink
She was still feeling tired and down so she didn't want to go to the piano bar after dinner. Plus her cramps were acting up and she said she felt too full from being bloated. I felt bad for her that she couldn't enjoy the evening.
We did walk around the town for a few minutes.
We got home at 8:30 and she said she was going to jump in the shower to rinse off and change in her pj's (her pants were feeling tight from being bloated)
I told her I was going to sit out in the patio a bit as it was still nice out and it was early.
So here I am. It is a very nice evening out. Too bad it was a bad time of the month for her for us to go out I feel bad for her that she couldn't enjoy the evening. I'm not going to let her ruin my evening
I've reviewed all the advise/suggestions that everyone has offered to strengthen my wall
About 20 minutes later she came down from her shower and poked her head out to tell me she was just going to sit inside since her stomach was bothering her
I wound up coming inside as well since it started getting cold
We watched various TV shows till 10PM when she said she was going to bed. I gave her a hug and kiss on the check good nite. I thought I made it through the nite but boy was I wrong
She came back down about 30 minutes later. She said she was mad/frustrated that we hadn't talked about custody. I told her I was playing catch up as she has been dealing/processing this a lot longer than I have. I'm still trying to get all my thoughts around it. She kept pressing me so I asked her for her thoughts. She shared her 50/50 idea that I did not like but I just said that I would have to think about it
She blew up at that saying she felt like I was disrespecting her and not listening by trying to drag this thing out. She said she was going to stop being nice and stop going to counseling as she felt I was trying to take advantage of her.
I tried to empathize but she kept escalating her anger. I told her that I am listening and hear everything that she has said. She tried to jump in to continue to escalate by pushing selling the house but I asked her to let me finish. I then told her that I just don't agree with what she is saying. She got madder
I remained calm and I shifted into my business negotiations mode. I went into the I believe in the marriage and that the relationship can work. I said I understand she doesn't right now. I also said that I believe staying married will offer the best life for the kids but I know she wants the divorce. However, what we both need to do is come up what will offer the best life for the kids that we can both live with. She calmed somewhat and agreed that is the goal.
So I asked her what could be some options. She thought about it and offered another idea that I didn't like either
She the pressed me for my idea. I reminded her that I still believe in the marriage and believe it can work. I do love her but because I love her I won't stop her from leaving. So I offered up my idea (her and I move back and forth, and the kids stay put - nesting) as stability for kids is important. She agreed stability is important but she said she will not share a space with me
We looked at each other for a while when she tried to escalate again. She said if she left tomorrow she is sure I would come up with an answer. I wanted to say that she wouldn't have the kids at all then but I didn't. She said that I wasn't working with her. She brought up the selling the house again
I told we need to focus on the kids as that needs to be the first priority. Then I asked her what was she expecting for me to do. She offered ideas, I offered ideas and neither one of us could agree. So the next logical step seemed to be to think of other ideas.
She then went off on how if we don't agree, a judge will ultimately decide and she didn't think that's a good idea. I told her I agree as who better than the 2 of us knows what's best for us and the kids
I then told her how in the past I had said she made me happy but now I understand I was wrong. She didn't make me happy. She was shocked/taken back about that at first. I let it sink in for a few seconds. I then told her only I can make myself happy. She made me feel loved and no matter what we do we need to make sure the kids still feel loved. She agreed
I still believe the marriage relationship can work. She jumped in saying it won't because she is refusing to work on that. It wasn't what she wanted. I told her I know that but I still believe it can if she did work on it with me. She said she didn't want that because of the negative feelings she has. I then went into how we will always have a relationship because of the kids. We need to work on getting past the negativity so it doesn't affect that relationship
She didn't agree as she felt this way for sometime and feels we were functioning as a family well. I said I'm not too sure about that (I wish I had a better response - any suggestions?)
We had several minutes of silence then said something about nesting while we were waiting for the house to be sold. I said that was something to think about
It was late so I suggested we go to bed (that's what she used to do to me when I wanted to talk about things)
Feels like things are getting worse from a perspective of saving the marriage. I'm not upset or hurt though. I'm just disappointed and feel sad for my kids
I will see my kids tomorrow though so that should be a good day
She was still angry this morning. She stomped around and wound up saying she was going to stop going to counseling until we come up with a custody agreement
I though that was very childish but didn't say that. She continued on how she was hurt how I treat her now. She said it was a slap in her face that she wanted it for so long but now I get it when she doesn't care. I said, sarcastically, how aweful it must be when someone is showing her that he loves and cares for her. I then went into how I know she doesn't believe its real but I do. The changes I made will become habits because this is the right thing to do
More to follow. Seems like there is going to be a lot talking this morning. Hope my wall holds up
We went out and had a very nice dinner. It started off very nice but she seemed a little irked. I know she wants to talk about custody but I'm not going to bring it up if she doesn't. Not sure if that's going cost me my purple belt
Nope, let her bring it up if she wants to talk about it.
She blew up at that saying she felt like I was disrespecting her and not listening by trying to drag this thing out. She said she was going to stop being nice and stop going to counseling as she felt I was trying to take advantage of her.
Oh please...it's not like she is a grown woman, right? Stop being nice? She is walking away, yeah that's super nice of her.
We may want to think of a boundary for this kind of talk, especially if she is saying she is no longer going to be nice.
I'm not saying get pissed and let her take your wall down with this talk, but I also am not sure you should tolerate this kind of talk either.
Don't act on it right now, but let's think about a good way to handle this.
Oh, and don't give up hope just yet man. You are only just starting to really "get it" and it takes time for that to affect change in your R.
You are going to have backslides and down days, it is not the end of the world btw. Don't beat yourself up too much, just put them down to experience and work on bouncing back asap.
She's still stomping around. It's almost like my 7 year old. Pretty sad
She says that she doesn't think I'm being flexible and working with her. I haven't been getting mad or emotional but just realized I haven't been compassionate either. I've asked her that I want her to tell me what she's expecting me to do. She keeps saying working with her to move forward with the seperation.
I told her that up haven't come up with any new ideas since we stopped talking last nite and asked if she had. She said no
I said that I felt last nite was productive as we both finally agreed on something. That we need to keep what is best for the kids in mind
She then tried to escalate again where she said she's going to stop doing what I want (counseling) until we come to agreement on custody
We had to pick up the boys from her mom's. When we got there the boys were excited to see us. I was glad to see them too. Her mom was saying how she will be over tomorrow so we can go to counseling. My wife didn't say anything but she stayed inside to talk to her mom when the boys and I were in the car
I think she finally told her mom what was going on with us. Her mom looked sad when we drove away. I asked her what they talked about when she stayed behind. She said just asked how it went last nite with the boys. I think I've finally caught her in a lie. Very disappointing
We went grocery shopping and I tried to act as if the relationship was ok.
When we got home I switched o compassion mode and said that I know she is frustrated and angry. This is one of the most important decisions of our lives and we can not let it be made out of negative emotions. We have to work together to decide what's best She seemed to relax a little when I said that.
Now I'm playing down in the basement playroom with my boys. We're having fun. She's still sulking.
I'm open to suggestions on next moves to diffuse some of the anger/frustration. Letting her sulk doesn't seem like a winning mood
I'm really detached as I still feel fine. Pretty scary.
I told her I was going to the gym later and this Tues I will be going out with some of my friends since she didn't want to do anything.
Oh, and don't give up hope just yet man. You are only just starting to really "get it" and it takes time for that to affect change in your R.
You are going to have backslides and down days, it is not the end of the world btw. Don't beat yourself up too much, just put them down to experience and work on bouncing back asap.
I'm actually not beating myself up at all. I don't think I've really backslid as I didn't get very emotional at all. I did realize that I've failed to show compassion. I'm got to remeber to keep that in mind as that has been the heart of our relation issues
Ah so much to keep track of and remember
She made us a nice lunch. I could tell she was still mad. We ate and the kids entertained us. She seemed to soften a little. She wound up taking a nap after lunch. I played with the kids until it was time for my 3 year old to take a nap
I asked my oldest if he wanted to go to the gym with me. He said no. I went to the gym and had a good work out. I called one of my friends to meet me for a beer. So here I am.
I'm not down, just trying to figure out the right move. I love her so much that I don't want to see her hurting anymore. I know I should tell her that. I'm not sure what the right move is
All I know is that either way I will find a way to be happy, with or without her love. I also know I will always have a love to share with my boys
She is just acting too childish to see what she is doing. Is that resentment? Or do I really feel sorry for her. Its such a fine line
Any suggestions on the next move? Letting her stew doesn't seem to be the wise move...
I'm sure I messed up here but I went out with one of my buddies tio chat and drink for the about 4 hours. She called me but I didn't answer
Oh well
Whatever
She was mad when I got home. She had dinner waiting for me. She and the kids already ate
She seemed hurt that I was gone so long and did not call. I most asked why did she care but I didn't. The boys were excited that I was back
I told her that after the gym I needed some time to think. She said it was wrong for me to be gone almost 6 hours without calling. I wanted to say like whe she was out for her Bday but I didn't
I just acknowledged and validated
I played with the boys for a bit. She complained about her feet as she had cleaned the floors and did 6 loads of laundry and made dinner when I was gone. I gave her a foot massage and a kiss on the check. I the recognized how everything was taken care of so well
She seems calm now. Not sure what that means but I had a fun day
Well just out of courtesy you should have called. Remember, while you're detaching you need to stay consistent in your actions. Right now you're at the point where you've detached, but maybe a little too much. We all do it.
Now you need to fine tune your detachment.
The next time she says that she won't go to counseling, tell her that it was for her to better understand herself as much as it is for you to understand you. Tell her that you've gotten alot out the sessions as you have been very open to find out what was wrong with you. And these have been reflected in your changes. Say, that if she is just in it for you and not to better understand herself, then she really doesn't need to be there but that you will continue to do so to continue to improve you.
Then she can't hold that as a threat over your head anymore. You're saying, well I'm going because I want to get better, but if you don't want to get better, that's up to you. Again, her choice.
With her period, I don't think you could have given her any answer without her being pissed off. So it was good that you played it cool.
I think you gave her the right amount of compassion and detachment. If she starts an argument again, just tell her that according to her she's had a looong time to think things out whereby she's only given you a few weeks. It's all her driving the train and you've been pulled along. So it's only understandable that she gives you the same amount of time she had so that things work out for you as well as for her. Then ask her "that is what you want right". "You do want to be fair to me right". Then she can't say anything.
If she again accuses you of dragging things out, stop her and say that you are not and that you have already told her why.
Admit to her again that you have already apologized for the things you have done, but it is HER choice to stay angry. And it is YOUR choice to remain happy.
Again, flip it back into her corner. Make her continue to see how it's her actions that she needs help for and not yours.
I still would push for the separation and say you need it to decide on what the best course of action would be. But good luck.
Well just out of courtesy you should have called. Remember, while you're detaching you need to stay consistent in your actions. Right now you're at the point where you've detached, but maybe a little too much. We all do it.
Now you need to fine tune your detachment.
Stuck808,
I did feel sorry I didn't call/answer. Perhaps it was the 5 captain morgan and cokes I had already when she tried to call, but I just didn't want to answer when she called. I know I may have gone a little too far with the detachment.
I did call her to let her know I was on my way home.
I told her I hadn't realized that I was gone for that long and must have just lost track of time, but I appologized as I acknowledged that was wrong for me not to. That is actually part of my 180 - she had said I would never appologize to her in the past. I took it to the extreme the first 2 weeks and kept appologizing. Now I do appologize only for new things that occur or that she brings up.
That's a good suggestion about counseling. I like how you put it reinforced my changes as internally driven/real vs. from a script/book that she brought up during last week's session. She knows that I would go to counseling by myself if she doesn't want to go. We have talked about in the first few sessions. She thinks she's going for me as it "helps" achieve what I want - saving the marriage. Perhaps the twist of saying it is to better understand herself will diffuse that. I'll have to remember that one.
I like your line of "you do want to be fair to me right?". That can really be useful as she has all along said she was trying to be fair and nice. Hopefully I can get it across so it doesn't come out as a jab, but more matter of factly. I'll work on that one.
My concern with the separation - in addition to the effect on the kids (which is the top priority) - is how do you continue to DB when she's not in the house or if you never/rarerly see her?
Last nite after we put the kids to bed, I had a few things to take care of in my den. I heard her in the kitchen emptying the dishwasher. I came out and told her that I know her elbow is bothering her so I could empty it. She said it was already done. I thanked her for that.
She went to the family room to watch some television and I went back into the den. I heard her laughing so I came out to ask what was so funny. She told me and we both laughed and talked lightly.
I told her that I was ordering new headphones for my MP3 player as mine had broken when I was at the gym. She then came into the den with me. I could tell something was still bothering her so I stopped what I was doing and turned to her.
She started about how worried she was when I was gone for such a long time. She said that I had left around 1 or 1:30 and she thought that at a max, I would have been at the gym for 2 hours. She then said she was worried if something had happened to me. She even questioned if I had actually gone to the gym and wondered if I was with someone. Inside I was like wtf??!?!?
I appologized again. I acknowledged and validated her feelings and agreed that it was the wrong thing for me to do. Not sure if she's treating this as I'm back to being selfish. I told her that I had gone to gym, but when I started working out my right shoulder started to bother me (my normal bad shoulder is my left). I told her I was concernd about it so I slowed down my work out. I usually wait about 1 minute between sets, but stretched it to about 3 minutes between sets so I can keep stretching my right shoulder. Then I told her I ran for about a mile on the tread mill.
After I was done working out, I felt like I needed some time/space. I acknowledge that I should have called her to let her know, but didn't think I was going to be that long. I appologized again.
She has been concerned about her weight gain so I even suggested that if she wanted to come with me to the gym, it could be a good change of pace. She said when were we going to find the time to do that. I said I'm planning on going every weekend, plus there is a babysitting service available there, so we could go together. She said that if she was just going run she would just do it down in our basement gym. I told here there was a lot of other equipment too but that was up to her. I didn't press it any further.
She then talked about what she did while I was gone (a ton of housework and laundry) and she had made the meat sauce I like for spaghetti. I listened and acknowleded and recognized how I thought the house and everything looked nice. She then brought in the meat sauce to smell. I said it smelled great. She then made a comment of how she made it so her mom could just heat it up Monday nite for dinner (hmmmm... maybe she is going to counseling tonite).
It was starting to get late, so she said she was going to bed. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the check. I appologized again and she went upstairs.
I stayed up a bit to load the dishwasher and repack my gym bag. I listed to some music and read some more of the Love without Hurt book and then went to bed.
Not sure what's going through her head, I'm not going to try to guess. I'll just let her bring it up.
I feel like I had a good weekend and even with her pressing the custody discussion, I still had fun this weekend. I feel like I'm dragging a litle this morning - probably from all the drinks yesterday afternoon.
She blew up at that saying she felt like I was disrespecting her and not listening by trying to drag this thing out. She said she was going to stop being nice and stop going to counseling as she felt I was trying to take advantage of her.
Oh please...it's not like she is a grown woman, right? Stop being nice? She is walking away, yeah that's super nice of her.
We may want to think of a boundary for this kind of talk, especially if she is saying she is no longer going to be nice.
I'm not saying get pissed and let her take your wall down with this talk, but I also am not sure you should tolerate this kind of talk either.
Don't act on it right now, but let's think about a good way to handle this.
Spellfire,
Any more thoughts on this one?
This morning it still seemed like something was bothering her. She seemed to act just a little softer. Not sure what this means, but it's not really affecting my mood. I do feel concern for her as she is my wife and I do love her.
She sent me a text about mid-morning complaining about work stuff from last friday. I tried to be supportive via a text back. We traded a few more text messages back and forth. She wound up saying for tonite, before the counseling session, that we could go out to dinner at a resturant that she has been talking about all weekend. So it sounds like she's going to counseling.
Now I just got a text asking if I'm still planning on going out with my buddies on Tues. I text her back that I haven't heard for sure yet. She text back saying that her divorced friend is looking to go out. She's the one who is anti-divorce.
So the saga continues. It's a busy day at work for me, but I'm still having a good day.
Spellfire,
Any more thoughts on this one?
Phew, busy weekend. I was going to get back to you on this one, but I actually think stuck nailed it a few posts back. Now is a great time to start thinking about some boundaries, especially with regards to her blaming you.
Not sure how far you are through your current book, but I think this is the perfect time to pick up "Hold on to Your NUTS". It covers boundaries in a concise and easy to understand manner, and it will get you thinking about what you are willing and not willing to tolerate.
The good thing about boundaries is that as you set them and internalize them, you become more decisive, strong, and in-control without being controlling.
I'm having a tough day at work - I have to tell about 1/3 of our salaried work force that in addition to their 10% pay cut, that they will also be furloughed 1 week/month for next quarter. Very depressing time.
That's probably what is also getting me torn/anxious of her going out with her friends. That has been one of my issues in the past that she felt controlled about. I know that the last couple of times I "let" her go out over the past few weeks, she came home in a really good mood and it helped our relationship. I'm just anxious as this could be her way of getting ready/comfortable with the idea of being single again and going out. In the past I was worried she was seeing someone else or would meet someone else or was looking for someone else. Very irrational thought process. I guess I still haven't been able to get that anxiety under control. Particularly, as that would be exactly what she would do if we were divorced.
I'm trying to recompose myself (don't want to lose my DB orange belt) before I see her.
Other thing is to decide what to say in counseling tonite.
I was thinking about saying a little of what stuck and what others have said in various other threads suggested:
I feel like I've gotten alot out the sessions as I have been very open to find out what was wrong with me. And these have been reflected in my changes. Last Weds our oldest son really drove it home to me when he commented about how I was acting differently. When I asked him in a good way or bad way? He said definitely a good way. That's when it really hit me why I was making these changes and it really reinforces that I need to make sure these changes becomes habits.
I still believe in the marriage and that the relationship can work, but right now she doesn't feel that way as she has choosen to hold onto her anger/resentment and not work on the relationship (she said that to me Sat nite).
I will always be sorry for how I've hurt her emotionally in the past and I've appologized for that. I know that regardless of the path that we head down we will always have a relationship because of our kids. I feel we will both need to be able to let go our anger/resentment to make sure we have a relationship where our kids will always feel loved by both parents.
What do you think? Too much Hallmark? Too confrontational? Too much like a campagn speech? Or what?
but right now she doesn't feel that way as she has choosen to hold onto her anger/resentment and not work on the relationship
^ delete, stop reminding her.
I will always be sorry for how I've hurt her emotionally in the past and I've apologized for that.
^ delete, you have said sorry already. Time to stop reminding her.
I know that regardless of the path that we head down we will always have a relationship because of our kids.
I feel we will both need to be able to let go our anger/resentment to make sure we have a relationship where our kids will always feel loved by both parents.
^ Reminding her again about her anger/resentment and telling her she needs to let it go (controlling).
How about this:
"Even though I wont be able to remain friends with you if you choose to leave, I know we will still need to have contact for the sake of the kids. All I ask is that no matter what happens, we treat each other with respect and set a good example for them."
Something like that, may someone else can chime in.
Spellfire,
Those are good points. Relative to "Even though I wont be able to remain friends with you if you choose to leave,..." Would that cover the separation as well or would it be in the case of a divorce. Seems like it would be hard to DB if she moves out and I tell her I won't remain friends - unless that's part of going dark/last resort technique. I'm just trying to be prepare my wall as she seems hell bent on moving on with the separation/divorce
I had thought this weekend's "reality check" by her was a major setback, but the reality is that this is no change from when she dropped the bomb. She had said during the first 1-2 weeks, when I was an emotional wreck, she considered withdrawing the divorce petition as I wanted to work on the marriage, but obviously she decided to just continue. Perhaps if I was DB'ing right away it would have helped, but I can't change the past.
The counselor always starts by asking us how things are going so I just want to be prepared with something. The message I'm trying to send is to to reinforce how I've changed and the changes are real. Originally the second half was to get her to talk about her hurt/anger and trying to let it go, but I guess I should drop that part. Perhaps I should just close with I believe that the marriage can still work and recognize some recent positive
Anyway, how about this:
These sessions have been helpful as I have been very open to find out what was wrong with me. And these have been reflected in my changes. Last Weds our oldest son really drove it home to me when he commented about how I was acting differently. When I asked him in a good way or bad way? He said definitely a good way. That's when it really hit me why I was making these changes and it really reinforces that I need to make sure these changes becomes habits.
Now I still believe in the marriage and that it can work. I feel that we are now more open to sharing and we're getting more comfortable with talking.
Hopefully the counselor will try to bring up getting past and letting go of her anger - our counselor touched on that for the first time in our last session.
Well I worked it out with my buddies that we'll go out on Weds so I'm going to tell my wife that she can go out with her girl friend on Tues. Guess this will be another test of my anxieties....
I think we had a good counseling session.
It started off a lightly shaky at dinner as she felt really tired and her ankle was bothering her. She continued to complain about her weight. I tried to change subjects and get her to talk about things that she was up/positive about or at least not be grumpy about. I did tell her I was able to work out going out with my buddies on Weds instead of Tues. We were just going for beer and wings (we didn't even realize it was St. Patricks day). I told her that I had thought her's was a St. Patricks day thing. As I knew she wanted to go out, I wanted her to be have the freedom to go.
When we got to counseling, she was starting to be in a better mood.
Our counselor asked how it was going. I tried to get me wife to start but she looked at me and said go ahead.
I didn't use the exact words as I wanted it to sound natural, but got the message accross of how I felt that the sessions have been helpful as I was open to finding out what was wrong with me and how that has helped me change. I told my story of my oldest son recognizing the changes which reinforced my intent of making the changes permanant by making the changes in behaviors into habits. My counselor applauded how it was signficant breakthrough in me. We then explored how my changes aren't just for my wife, but how it is making positive impact on the people around me (i.e. friends, children, work).
We really talked up the positive changes and how significant they were. My counselor talked about how it is possible to make these real permanant changes.
My wife even then brought up examples of how I used to handle things in the past that would make her very upset and brought up examples of how I handle things differently. I could see she was trying to speak of it not in terms of positive, but more of giving the example as not negative (i.e. how I didn't act controlling, or unsupporting).
I then got into how I still believe in the marriage and that it can work (I think that part of my statement was lost in all the discussions though). I felt that we felt more comfortable sharing and talking. I used the example from earlier last week where she moved her foot after I was carressing her leg/foot. In the past I would have over analyzed what she did and why, but recognized how she was able to express that it felt good and she was just shifting to get comfortable.
My wife then brought up the example of how in the past she would have been reluctant/afraid to ask about going out with her friends on Tuesday. She recognized how she asked and that I was able to work it out so I went out Weds instead so she could go out Tuesday.
Then she did go into how in the past when she did want to go out I would be upset. Our counselor asked why that was.
Fortunately I had gotten to the part of relationships in Love without Hurt. I didn't reference the book (recalling how it didn't go over well in the last counseling session when I referenced 5 languages of love). I talked about how in the past I felt we had to stay and function together purely as a 4 person family unit. That was my unhealthy paradigm of what a perfect family unit did. I never had that growing up - my dad left when I was 1 month old and my mom was always working so my grandma raise my sister and I.
I see how that paradigm was wrong as it stifled any freedom the individuals had and created an unhealthy codependency. I see now what makes the relationship of the family important are the individuals. It is important that each of us are able to develop as individual by interacting with our friends, co-workers, community and others around. That is what had attracted me to my wife, was her as an individual, not as a mom in a "perfect" four family unit.
My wife then talked about how I had these "crazy" expectations in the past of doing everything together. That's when I worked in that was then, this is now and I get it now.
My counselor said how my wife seems to be an easy person to talk to so it was good that I see that now and am comfortable in talking with her.
I shared with her how in the past I was afraid to share my fears with my wife as I didn't want her to see I wasn't the tough guy. I see how that was irrational. I talked about I had been afraid with her medical issue and how I was afraid of being sure I was going to be a good father when my first son was born. I said I was afraid as I have never seen/known what being a good father was so I made up an "image" of what that meant by myself. I see how that image was flawed now as well as recognize how I should have just talked to my wife about it. My counselor then remarked how attractive that is for women that a guy can share his fears as that was extremely intimate. I didn't get it, but just agreed anyway.
On the way home from counseling, we did talk and laugh about various light topics (no relationship talk) about our her co-worker's quirks/behaviors would annoy us. I did recognized how her attention to detail behavior makes her so good for her job as an auditor.
Not sure how it helped the relationship or save the marriage, but I had an enjoyable evening and thought it was positive.
I feel like I'm make very significant changes for me.
Great and that's all that matters.
All of the things your W have been doing are so opposite the typical WAW. Even her worrying because you didn't call. I mean many of our spouses are glad we're not around.
You're doing fine.
Great and that's all that matters.
All of the things your W have been doing are so opposite the typical WAW. Even her worrying because you didn't call. I mean many of our spouses are glad we're not around.
You're doing fine.
Spellfire
I do appreciate your optimism
She seemed to be back in full WAW mode this morning as she wouldn't even look at me. I wound up getting up early as I had an early meeting today
The boys and I had a good morning getting ready for work and school. Before I left with my 7 year old, I did tell her "Have a great day! Have fun tonite"
I did ask her to let me know when she may get home whenever she knew. Probably crossed the line but I did feel that was a boundary of mine
I feel that the concern your wife had was more of a jealousy thing which shows that she still has feelings for you. I think it’s a really good sign.
My waw does the same thing, actually becomes very upset, if I run a errand and seems to take longer than it should she starts questioning me.
It is something I have a hard time understanding. I mean she treats me like she does not care so what is the difference if I am with someone else? I take it as she really does care deep down inside but she is trying to suppress those feeling, she is keeping the wall up but peeking over it at times.
I think you are doing great keep it up.
I am also thinking that this is going to turn around but it is going to get scary for you. I say this because I feel that you are going have to show that you are not afraid of the divorce.
You will have to show this by cooperating in everyway you can. I think your actions in delaying things are hindering your progress a little but it is understandable.
I think your wife test your feelings by bringing up the divorce. She sees the fear and the hurt and she then feels that you still care.
When you take this away she will stop bringing it up because she will not get anything out of it anymore.
I did this with my wife and pretty much all D talk has stopped.
Real quick, I just thought of an recent example, My wife found a card from a girl in the mail .
So she goes into full waw mode starts going through the finances. I ask what’s up? She says we cant get a D we owe too much and we cant sell the house.
I say I would like to keep trying, (putting her at the front of the list) I hate to do that to the kids, I would like to keep this family together. However, if a divorce is something you want I am sure we can work it out. ...that was met with silence and no more talk about it. The thing is I am serious and she knows it ...before I would have become scared and upset and started to point out the good, basically start pursuing and she would pour it on.
you can fix this man I know it ...hang in there you were an angel to your wife compared to me.
Spellfire
I do appreciate your optimism
You mean stuck, but I agree with the comments anyway.
Spellfire
I do appreciate your optimism
You mean stuck, but I agree with the comments anyway.
Opps - sorry about that - I just got used to typing your name!
Just catching up on my journaling for the day. I was in a staff meeting from 7:30 AM to 12:30 PM
As I had mentioned, my wife was in full blown WAW mode this morning. It seemed like she wouldn't even look at me. I did wind up giving her a hug before I left and kissed her on the check.
I had set the boundary, so I asked her to try to let me know when she may be back tonite. She said she would.
Earlier this morning she text me that the thing tonite was canceled. I text her back and tried to be empathetic by saying she must be disappointed as she had really been looking forward to it. I also asked her what happened. She tried to call me back, but since I was in a meeting, I just text her saying I couldn't pick up since I was in a meeting. She then text me that her girl friend was running late so she would have to work late. She did recognize how I rearranged my thing with my buddies though so she could have gone. I empathized again. Then we bounced a few text back and forth just joking around.
Un/fortunately my boss snapped at me to turn off my phone as he said it has buzzed about 30 times.
Maybe it was good thing since it gave me a chance to go "dark" for a little bit.
I also just got off the phone from a recruiter with an interesting opportunity about 2 hours away. It could be a good fresh start for me. Close enough to visit whenever I wanted to, but far enough away for me to get a life. We'll see how it goes.
She did wind up texting me again "I oughta punch you in the nose hopscotch" about 2 hours later - my 3 year old has been saying it non-stop since he saw Nite at the Museum about 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, he actually punches whoever is nearby in the nose. Doesn't bother me at all as it gives me a chance to practice my Kenpo blocks, but my 7 year old and wife has had ice packs on their noses almost everyday. Pretty funny in my mind.
Which reminds me I should text her back as that was almost an hour ago.
I still don't know what is really going on other than over the weekend she really pressed the custody agreement as she said she really wanted to move out. I'm actually annoyed with my lawyer as I haven't heard from him in a week.
Oh well, whatever.
I'm still having a good day and look forward to seeing my kids tonite (didn't really get to see them last nite as we had gone to counseling). I was planning on taking them out to a resturant that me and boys liked, but with my wife home tonite, I'll still have a good time with them.
I appreciate everyone's optimism of my situation, but really feel that I'm on the divorce train and it is out of my control.
I felt like I monopolized most of the counseling session yesterday and my wife didn't say too much. Not sure if that's a good thing or not. My plan had been to get her to talk more about current positives/changes - trying to break the cycle of rehashing the past hurt/pain. Seems like a good strategy to me, but curious of what other people think
I will continue to work on me for me and the boys. I have my next therapy appointment tomorrow so I'll talk to the therapist some more.
Talk about a back and forth/up and down roller coaster ride
Just got a text from her that said:
"Now she is taking a half day today so she can go out... i'm soooo confused"
She's confused??!?!? You have got to be kidding me..... Anyway, I'm going to wait a bit and just text her back
"Go for it and enjoy! I'll see you when you get home!"
What do you think?
Well I text her back what I planned and she responded right away with a text
"I will let u know for sure as soon as i know"
Guess I'm back in limbo even relative to what she's doing tonite.
I do feel good about my changes and how far I've "evolved". It frustrates me that I'm still on the divorce train, but I know that not my decision.
I know one of her issues in the past had been my "rigid" approach and/or inflexibility to sudden changes in the schedule - especially when it comes something that will be divergent from my "perfect" four member family unit being together. As I had mentioned in counseling last nite, I see now that was an unhealthy paradigm that restricted our freedoms of being/functioning as individuals. Perhaps this is a test, who knows.
I'm going to plan, as my 3 year old likes to call it a boys nite, if she doesnt go out tonite, she'll be welcome to come along. If not, I'm going to make sure our "boys nite" is fun.
CIPA,
You're continue to do a great job with your sitch. The only suggestion I would have is that you not ask her what time she's going out or when she's coming back for anything.
Give her freedom and space while she's with you and show her that she can have that while still with you. So she doesn't have to give up anything or feel the need to check-in.
Your last counseling session sounded great since she didn't bring up anything really argumentative.
I continue to believe you've got a great shot at this with this new combination of compassion and detachment that you've achieved.
CIPA,
Just wanted to check in again. I have read through your last posts and I agree with stuck. You are doing so much better than even 2 weeks ago. This is going to take still a lot of time. Remember, up until two weeks ago, you were the needy, clingy, controlling type of guy, and even though she had noticed a few changes, she was still not attracted to you. Also, you have still a lot of room to improve, so let it settle in.
If I just go by my experience, even 4 weeks after such a life-changing experience as Retrouvaille, the outcome is not clear. We are getting closer to each other, start to build a connection again, but it is still very unstable. So do not expect something like a "Boom! Everything is OK again." That will not happen. You need a lot of patience for this long process. I am very optimistic that you will get your chance.
AN
Spellfire,
Those are good points. Relative to "Even though I wont be able to remain friends with you if you choose to leave,..." Would that cover the separation as well or would it be in the case of a divorce. Seems like it would be hard to DB if she moves out and I tell her I won't remain friends - unless that's part of going dark/last resort technique.
Spellfire (or anyone else who has a thought),
Any clarification on the friends "speech"?
Thanks
CIPA,
You're continue to do a great job with your sitch. The only suggestion I would have is that you not ask her what time she's going out or when she's coming back for anything.
Give her freedom and space while she's with you and show her that she can have that while still with you. So she doesn't have to give up anything or feel the need to check-in.
Stuck,
I appreciate the encouragement
She wound up not going out with her girlfriend tonite. I tried to be sympathetic and supportive as I thought she had really wanted to go. She appologized for flip flopping back and forth
Guess I'll have to wait for another opportunity to test my anxieties!
Thanks for all your support
I don't think you should concern yourself about the "friends" speech. Concentrate on the immediate issues and not what may happen. The way things are between the two of you, if you told her that you can't be friends, I don't think that you'd actually mean it and she'll pick up on that.
Just be sincere with what you want and that if she gets that "trapped" feeling again, tell her again how much you love her enough so that if she wants to leave now, the door is open for her to do so. You don't need to be together to DB or to work out a settlement. That way she can stop blaming you for "holding things up".
I gave my W that speech just this weekend and guess what? She's still here.
I think in some cases, DBing works better after you've been apart awhile. Sometimes it's hard to see the day to day changes when the person is in front of you all the time.
But you can cross that road when you get to it. Remember, no R talk from you. Let her start it if she wants, but you be the one to end it.
CIPA,
Just wanted to check in again. I have read through your last posts and I agree with stuck. You are doing so much better than even 2 weeks ago. This is going to take still a lot of time. Remember, up until two weeks ago, you were the needy, clingy, controlling type of guy, and even though she had noticed a few changes, she was still not attracted to you. Also, you have still a lot of room to improve, so let it settle in.
If I just go by my experience, even 4 weeks after such a life-changing experience as Retrouvaille, the outcome is not clear. We are getting closer to each other, start to build a connection again, but it is still very unstable. So do not expect something like a "Boom! Everything is OK again." That will not happen. You need a lot of patience for this long process. I am very optimistic that you will get your chance.
AN
AN
Thanks for checking in and taking the time to read my posts. I know they can be long
I know I need to be patient. I've never been good at that but I know that may be the best thing I can do in my situation
Glad to her yours is progressing
Best of luck
Just be sincere with what you want and that if she gets that "trapped" feeling again, tell her again how much you love her enough so that if she wants to leave now, the door is open for her to do so. You don't need to be together to DB or to work out a settlement. That way she can stop blaming you for "holding things up".
I gave my W that speech just this weekend and guess what? She's still here.
Well, part of the speech I had given her over the weekend is that if she leaves, I can't afford to stay in the house, and she can said that she can't afford to stay in the house, nor would she want to. I could actually afford to do it if I didn't pay her child support, but she didn't go for that as I said I would just keep the kids and she could visit.
So she had asked me to contact a real estate agent adn I told her that she can if she wants to. So tonite, she told me she did.
I reacted cooly with an "Oh. ok" Then she said what she thought we could get for the house based on the other houses selling nearby. I looked at her calmly and said "That's what I had thought".
Mentally I'm ok with selling the house as if we do get a divorce, it would be sold as part of the division anyway (she would get all the equity in the house as part of her 50%). If she gave the marriage another chance, we would want to sell it to get a fresh start (she said all the emotional abandoment started right after we moved into the house).
The she asked if I gave any more thought to custody. I said I haven't come up with anything new and asked what she thought. She told me which one of the two ideas she had presented already that she prefered. I just said "hmmmm, that's something to think about"
Then I made a comment about the show we were watching and the divorce/relationship conversation ended there.
So it looks like this divorce train is heading full speed ahead.
Ironic part of it was that early tonite, after she got home, she showed me a pair of heels that she was going to return as they were too tall. I asked her to wear them to show me. They looked really good on her and I gave her a hug and she kissed me on the lips. I thought it was going to be a promising nite. Big twist.
I didn't let it break down my wall though. I'm disappointed as I thought we would make up for missing last Thursday but I guess not.
I'm still planning on not fighting the separation, I'm just not going to help her. I will negotiate with the real estate agent to get his fees down though, as that will not help the separation, but will help our financials. I'm going to wait till next week to present what I prefer as the custody agreement, assuming I hear from my lawyer then.
I'm not as optimistic as everyone else is relative to relationship. This is where we are going to really see if her actions are going start matching a WAW.
Either way, I don't feel emotionally differenet that I did yesterday. I am still optimistic of the changes I made in me for me. I am disappointed about the likely end of my marriage and what it will do to our family. I'm sad for that, but I know that I will survive and thrive for me and my 2 boys.
That was a tough blow to my wall.....
The emotional wrecking ball will happen all throughout this situation. You just need to keep looking out for yourself.
Let me put it to you this way. Just today my W apologized for being short with me today for no apparent reason. This is the first time she has EVER apologized to me for anything in over a year. It's taken me a very long time to get here, but you learn to take it day to day.
Stop rethinking about last week Thursday. That ship has sailed and it isn't in her mind so it shouldn't be in yours.
Imagine you are her. You want to leave your M, what are you thinking and what would you do? Have you thought about what you want out of a custody? I am still pushing for the physical separation outside the home to let her see what it feels like. If you decide to do that, you need to tell her to leave the home because if she wants to give it up, she can go. A little bit of tough love I think is in order.
I can see from her point of view it's getting to where she's getting ready to move on to the next phase of mentally moving away from you. Go two steps ahead of her and make her feel it.
She's going to be surprised, shocked and angry, but hey, it's what she wants right? You're just giving it to her but on YOUR timetable and not hers. Sometimes they need something like that to shake them up.
Over this weekend, my W was accusing me for something and I jiu-jitsued it into a talk about what she was going through and laid it all on the line. I held her to her ethics and morals and told her that she wasn't like this before. I even confronted her about the OM and how she was deluding herself that it wasn't an A. She sat and listened as I went on for a good 30 minutes. At the end she actually THANKED ME for talking to her.
I stood my ground, told her everything I've learned about us and used the techniques I've learned here. And I think that was her wake up call.
Sometimes you need to show them your confidence and assertiveness to get snapped back into reality. In other words, act like the man...not an @$$, but a man who is to be respected.
Maybe just cut back on being so accommodating to her.
Stuck,
I wish I would have read your post about 5 minutes ago. My wife had gone up to bed after her little "real estate agent" bomb. That's when I wound up hoping onto the computer.
She just came back down about 5 minutes ago asking if we could move a TV into the spare bedroom so she could watch TV while she slept. I told her that there wasn't a cable box in there so it wouldn't work. Then I offered to let her sleep in our room and I'll stay in the family room. She said she didn't want to kick me out of our room. I almost said, but kicking out our marriage is ok?, but I didn't.
She seemed down/sad so I went over and hugged her. I know it was a bad move, but hey, I'm only an orange belt. I still love her and felt bad that she was sad. I did blow it when I kissed her on the neck. She said don't. Oh well, guess I'm back to a yellow belt.
Anyway, she wound up saying that she was down as she wanted to go out with her girl friend tonite, but it didn't work out. I tried to be compassionate and acknowledge and validate.
Then she said about this whole situation was bad. I acknowledged and validated. I backslid into problem solving mode by suggesting that she could watch TV in the family room then. She said she didn't want to be with me. I told her I was about to go to bed anyway. Again she declined and moped back to the spare bedroom.
Part of me wants to think this was part of my 180 as in the past when she felt that way, I would just say oh and basically not support her emotionally. The other part of me knows I had a backslide. I just felt so bad for how she was sad that I wanted to comfort and "solve" her problem. What a delicate balance this is....
Oh well, I will live to fight another day.
Imagine you are her. You want to leave your M, what are you thinking and what would you do? Have you thought about what you want out of a custody? I am still pushing for the physical separation outside the home to let her see what it feels like. If you decide to do that, you need to tell her to leave the home because if she wants to give it up, she can go. A little bit of tough love I think is in order.
I can see from her point of view it's getting to where she's getting ready to move on to the next phase of mentally moving away from you. Go two steps ahead of her and make her feel it.
She's going to be surprised, shocked and angry, but hey, it's what she wants right? You're just giving it to her but on YOUR timetable and not hers. Sometimes they need something like that to shake them up.
I know that you are right with regards to the separation. The problem I have is what I feel is the best for the kids would be for me to move out so they would at least have the stability of the house - she would never go for not have at least 50% custody. I will, for the best of the kids, tell her that she can have primary physical custody - they stay with her the majority of the time.
I would want to be able to visit up to 3 nites a week, have the kids for up to 3 weekends/month and go out as a family 1 nite per week. I would want to be able to have them for 2 weeks/year for vacation. I also would want to have them on Father's day and on my B'day. I would want to be able to visit on their B'day's and if there is a B'day party that is not on their B'day. I would want them for Thanksgiving and share X-mas day as a family. I would also want to be notified of all extra-curicular activities (i.e. soccer, baseball) that they are or could participate in so I can decide to have them sign up as well as see them in the games.
Essentially, that would give me an opportunity to see them almost 5 days/week on average without having them move back and forth between houses. In my mind, it would be a burden/additional stress on the kids to move back and forth. Also, my job schedule doesn't allow me to drop off/pick up both kids. I'm not sure if she will fight me on these as she keeps saying even though she wants a divorce, she wants me to be heavily involved in the kids life. I would actually be ok with just seeing them 3 or 4 days/week, but in a negotiations, you have to start somewhere there are things to give up.
I know me moving out won't be as big of a shock to her as if she moved out, but I don't want my kids to go through that type of shock. I'm also tempted to go visit an out of town friend this weekend just to give us a break from each other - what do you think of that idea? I could actually take the kids with me if necessary as my buddy is married with 3 kids as well, but their kids are older than my kids so I don't think it will be that much fun for them. So if I don't take them, it will also take me away from my kids, but they have experienced that whenever I travel on business (I go overseas about 1 week out of every 10 - I'm delaying a trip this time because of my situation).
That's another reason why I'm not as gun ho on a separation, as we have had time apart and when she dropped the bomb on me, she said the last week I had traveled was like a vacation for her.
Oh well, I know I'm going to have to make a tough decision very soon. I do have my therapy appointment tomorrow and I'm going out with my buddies tomorrow nite so that should be a good break from it all.
My other thought, following the stray cat theory, is to help her setup the spare bedroom so it is more comfortable for her. Right now it's really cramped as the crib is in there. I could take the crib out this weekend and move a TV in there with a digital reciever box so she can get over the air TV as well as hooking up a DVD player so she can watch videos.
Or is that too accomodating?
Way too accommodating. Let her feel it. I wouldn't even acknowledge her really. Just say yes or no and that's it. She doesn't want to talk to you, then don't. She's pushing your buttons again to feel something...anything. Don't encourage it.
Remember, it goes back to telling her that you are not the one who makes her happy or unhappy. It's all in her head.
Also, DO NOT move out of the home. Have her do it. It's a psychological thing. She wants out of everything the two of you had built together. So let her feel on her own even if it is temporary.
If she's already moping around and saying that she doesn't want you around, then all you're doing is accommodating her. Don't do her any favors by making her comfortable.
If you can swing it, have the kids stay in the house with you if you're worried about stability. You can do it. I learned how to raise my kids alone and I became a much stronger father. Strong enough that when I told my W that she was free to leave, I also told her that we (me and the kids) didn't need her anymore and that I had learned to be a single parent. That kind of through her for a loop. You'll have to sacrifice alot, but in the end it would get you much closer to your kids than you ever thought possible. And right now they need the 'right' parent to stay with them. The one that you want them to model themselves after in the future. The one that fights for their M and not the one that can't 'get over' her anger.
Stop saying that you 'feel bad for her'. She feels bad, so what? Does that affect you? Not in the least. What I said about tipping points, you can see how she get enough strength to get through each stage on her own all the way out the door. Cut her off by making the decisions. She can't argue with you because after all, it is what she wants isn't it?
Also, DO NOT move out of the home. Have her do it. It's a psychological thing. She wants out of everything the two of you had built together. So let her feel on her own even if it is temporary.
If she's already moping around and saying that she doesn't want you around, then all you're doing is accommodating her. Don't do her any favors by making her comfortable.
If you can swing it, have the kids stay in the house with you if you're worried about stability. You can do it. I learned how to raise my kids alone and I became a much stronger father. Strong enough that when I told my W that she was free to leave, I also told her that we (me and the kids) didn't need her anymore and that I had learned to be a single parent. That kind of through her for a loop. You'll have to sacrifice alot, but in the end it would get you much closer to your kids than you ever thought possible. And right now they need the 'right' parent to stay with them. The one that you want them to model themselves after in the future. The one that fights for their M and not the one that can't 'get over' her anger.
I would love to just have the kids stay with me and let her leave. I brought that up a couple of weeks ago and she had gotten extremely mad/angry and said that was so selfish of me. So that's probably the only reason why she's still here - because she is waiting for a custody agreement where she can take the kids at least 1/2 the time. My lawyer told me that if I go to court, that would be minimum that she would get - it would be extremely hard for me to get 100%.
I don't want the kids to have to move back and forth and get destabilized through this crazy situation. So even though I know it's not the ideal "DB" move, me moving would be the third best thing for the kids (the best woudld be we would stay together, second would be if I kept them and she moved out).
That's an interesting point of tipping points and her getting strenght/comfort from me to move through each stage. I'm really going to have to think and keep my eyes open to that one.
You just summed it up in your first sentence. "She said that was so selfish of me". Oh please. And her asking for divorce is not her being selfish to you?
After you tell her that she should leave since you obviously bring her so much unhappiness, tell her that all you're doing is giving her what SHE wants. She has nothing to get mad at. She doesn't want the house, she doesn't want you. She doesn't want the M. So what's the big deal? You're giving her everything she asked for.
I would recommend something drastic like that. She will get mad, but again, she can't blame you because once she sits and thinks about it, it is what she said she wants.
When it gets to that point, you tell her that there's only so many put downs you are going to stand their and take from her (which is true) and that you have been nothing but kind and compassionate to her.
If she refuses to leave, then you need to set a firm boundary and tell her that she must respect you and YOUR boundaries. That you will not be constantly blamed for things you did in the past and that she should look inwards and see how much she hates herself and what has happened in her past (such as her father). Say that she cannot threaten you anymore about C or anything else as you will not be 'controlled' by her any more. She will deny that she has been, but tell her she has.
If she expects you to respect her wishes, then she must respect yours. I think its time to step it up a notch so that she starts respecting you again. And that's what it comes down to. RESPECT.
She can't keep getting mad at you and expect you not to have any feelings. You're human and its about time she treated you as such. Our WAWs enjoy belittling us or seeing us as less than human so that it's much easier for them to leave and they feel better about themselves. Show her your 'man' side. Or rather, the new man you are. The one who is compassionate and listens to her needs, yet will not tolerate being stepped on and will not compromise on his convictions and beliefs.
You just summed it up in your first sentence. "She said that was so selfish of me". Oh please. And her asking for divorce is not her being selfish to you?
After you tell her that she should leave since you obviously bring her so much unhappiness, tell her that all you're doing is giving her what SHE wants. She has nothing to get mad at. She doesn't want the house, she doesn't want you. She doesn't want the M. So what's the big deal? You're giving her everything she asked for.
I would recommend something drastic like that. She will get mad, but again, she can't blame you because once she sits and thinks about it, it is what she said she wants.
When it gets to that point, you tell her that there's only so many put downs you are going to stand their and take from her (which is true) and that you have been nothing but kind and compassionate to her.
If she refuses to leave, then you need to set a firm boundary and tell her that she must respect you and YOUR boundaries. That you will not be constantly blamed for things you did in the past and that she should look inwards and see how much she hates herself and what has happened in her past (such as her father). Say that she cannot threaten you anymore about C or anything else as you will not be 'controlled' by her any more. She will deny that she has been, but tell her she has.
If she expects you to respect her wishes, then she must respect yours. I think its time to step it up a notch so that she starts respecting you again. And that's what it comes down to. RESPECT.
She can't keep getting mad at you and expect you not to have any feelings. You're human and its about time she treated you as such. Our WAWs enjoy belittling us or seeing us as less than human so that it's much easier for them to leave and they feel better about themselves. Show her your 'man' side. Or rather, the new man you are. The one who is compassionate and listens to her needs, yet will not tolerate being stepped on and will not compromise on his convictions and beliefs.
Stuck,
That's a pretty radical direction with that one. I'm curious what kind of results people have gotten or their thoughts with that approach
Part of me really likes it and wants to wake her up right now to hit her with it. The other part of me is scared to death.
The approach I started at the last session, and for the following sessions had been to get her to talk about the positive changes that's she's seen. This would be a big swing from that approach. What do you think about bringing it up at the next counseling session?
Actually it's not really a radical direction. You are reinforcing the idea that you care for her and understand her needs. The only difference is that you are now stating YOUR needs.
The thing about MLC is that the people under its spell will blame their spouse and family members that they are the ones at fault. It is a very selfish time for them, so all you're doing is lovingly giving her what she wants. She will also be prone to extreme mood swings which have been so evident just the past couple of weeks alone.
You don't have to be mean about it, just matter-of-factly, the same way she's been saying it to you.
Going back to the stray cat analogy. You've given her all the food, water and shelter but she still wants to roam free. Well, let her. She's leaving any way. The only thing you're doing is upping her schedule to what's convenient for YOU.
Just tell her that you were getting a little tired of being her punching bag and don't want to be angry at her. But if she insists of remaining angry at you for the past, then you would appreciate it if she not continue to treat you badly.
Stuck,
Once again, you bring up a very interesting perspective to it. I'm going to talk to my therapist/counselor about it. It seems to make a lot of sense but I'm just worried about how my wife would percieve (I know, don't try to guess what she is going to do/think). When she dropped the bomb on me, she said that she expected one of two reactions. First was that I was glad that she did that as I wanted out (can NOT believe how she would have gotten that one). Second was that I would get angry/violent and throw her out.
This is a twist as I need to be sure I can stay calm and composed so it is delivered in a manner that I'm not throwing her out, but that I'm letting her out. Subtle sounding different but huge.
I hadn't really thought about being her punching bag. She has always done nice things for me during this situation, as long as its not things related to situation. For example, if there is a particular outfit or perfume that I want her to wear when we go out, she would. If she sees I need a drink or if I ask for a drink, she would make/get it. If she hear's I'm hungry, she will get/make things for me to eat.
I guess where she uses me as a punching bag, is that she continues to blame me for all her hurt and anger and isn't spending any time looking inward. I have to think about this one. I've gotten up to the point in the Love without Hurt book where it talks about the wife who feels emotionally abused lets go of her resent/anger/hurt. It actually seems to help me too as I feel like I'm the one being emotionally abused.
Something to think about and grow on....
"So she had asked me to contact a real estate agent adn I told her that she can if she wants to. So tonite, she told me she did.
I reacted cooly with an "Oh. ok" Then she said what she thought we could get for the house based on the other houses selling nearby. I looked at her calmly and said "That's what I had thought".
Mentally I'm ok with selling the house as if we do get a divorce, it would be sold as part of the division anyway (she would get all the equity in the house as part of her 50%). If she gave the marriage another chance, we would want to sell it to get a fresh start (she said all the emotional abandoment started right after we moved into the house).
The she asked if I gave any more thought to custody. I said I haven't come up with anything new and asked what she thought. She told me which one of the two ideas she had presented already that she prefered. I just said "hmmmm, that's something to think about"
Then I made a comment about the show we were watching and the divorce/relationship conversation ended there.
So it looks like this divorce train is heading full speed ahead."
I think she is saber rattling myself.
When people see someone change like you have it makes them feel uncomfortable ...she wants you to change back to your hurt depressed self. She see’s that you are stronger and that you do not seem to hurt anymore and you are independent ... she wants you to be hurt because it makes her feel truly cared about… sick I know ….I have been here and done that.
So she contacted a realtor ok so what.....so when does she want to list it?
Theroadback,
I hope you're right. It had really rattled me, but I tried to stay calm/buisness like - good thing I spend so much time negotiating as part of my job.
It was an awkward morning as we chatted lightly but she wouldn't make eye contact. I still felt pretty upbeat/positive so I acted as if it was any other morning. I did move towards her to give her a hug good bye, but I got a cue that she didn't want one. Fortunately my youngest was right next to her so I gave it to him instead!
I had a busy day at work this morning. She wound up sending me an email with a joke (seems like she emails/text me almost everyday - I do not initiate, I let her send the first one). I usually only wait between 15 to 60 minutes to respond, but since I was tied up, I responded about 3.5 hours later. She responded back right away. Don't understand nor am I trying to.
I go to my therapy appointment later today and will be going out with my buddies for beer and wings this evening. I know it will be a good time.
I'm still debating whether to visit my friends up in Conn. I would like to bring my kids. I was planning on bringing it up to her that she had said she wanted a few days to think by herself so I was doing that to help. I think she will be afraid if I take the kids I won't come back with them (crazy thinking).
She actually just called to set up a time for us to go to the seminar of children and divorce. We have it April 20th. I didn't react emotionally, I just treated it as another business meeting I was trying to schedule.
So the train now has another stop.....
I really don't see any chance/hope with saving this marriage as she's hell bent on moving forward.
I do think a separation will help at that point, I need to figure out how to press it without totally alienating her.
I got of the phone with my buddy up in CT. Sounds he and his family is open to visitors so that's lined up. I'm going out with my friends tonite. I guess I'll bring my trip up to my wife tomorrow nite. Not sure if I should do this on the phone or after I'm out drinking with my friends
Either way this plays out, I need to keep doing this for me and my boys
She wants a divorce about as bad as you do right now. Children and divorce? you should have her watch children of divorce..watch how bad divorce screws up kids. everyone that has seen that show that I know cried.... yes even the men.
I dont understand the email .....can I ask what was your response was to the joke that she sent?
I dont understand the email .....can I ask what was your response was to the joke that she sent?
All I sent back was:
That was a good one!
I don't think she's saber rattling. You do that if you have a bluff with someone. So far your W hasn't had any bluffs for you to call. She wants out.
She's been nice to you when she wants to. I think its because she does feel bad about hurting you. But it seems to be LRT time. She's talking about a children and divorce talk? I mean, c'mon. She's leading you around and calling the shots. Remember, if what you're doing so far isn't working, then do something else.
And I do believe she has been using you as an emotional punching bag. What she's been doing during this passage of time is fortifying her resolve to D. I think it is weird that she can be cold, yet TM you something funny. Maybe don't answer at all when she does it. If she asks why you didn't answer later, just tell her you were busy. Maybe start have her really feel the loss. The reason why I recommend this is that when you didn't call to "check-in" the other day, she was really worried. You need to capitalize on that insecurity.
Not to be an @$$ about it, but I think you need to do something to shake the ground she's walking on. When I decided I wasn't going to take any emotional abuse anymore from my W, I told her I love her very much, enough to let her go. I rehashed who she was as a person and held her morals and ethics to the fire. I told her that would not compromise my ethics for her "newfound" ones and that she was free to leave. I was upfront about how she agreed we both contributed to our problems and that if she stuck it out, it would be hard but do-able. All the stuff I was journaling about her I brought out and hit her with (figuratively). I tried to do it with as much compassion for her that I could, but I just didn't want to be blamed for her unhappiness.
I was detached enough that if she stayed I'd be fine, if she left I'd be fine. It was HER journey not mine. I told her I would love to be a part of her journey and where I wanted to help her achieve her dreams and desires. But she would need to want it. Then it came down to what she wanted. I kept asking her, but she had no answer because your typical MLC person has no idea what they want.
And what did my W do? She THANKED me for talking to her. Then a couple of days later she apologized to me for acting mean about a small incident. Something she had not done in over a year. Sometimes I think the MLC person has to be reminded of who they are and what they can become. This takes the focus off the past and instead shows them potential.
Maybe you need to switch her emphasis off the M which is what she doesn't want and what is it that she DOES want. Show her that you can help her achieve what she desires in the context of the M.
She wants to date someone new? Well you are a new person. The benefit is that you are also someone she trusts.
She wants to have a bigger house? Who says she can't do that now?
It comes down to you taking a stand rather than you being hit by all her little backslides.
I don't think she's saber rattling. You do that if you have a bluff with someone. So far your W hasn't had any bluffs for you to call. She wants out.
She's been nice to you when she wants to. I think its because she does feel bad about hurting you. But it seems to be LRT time. She's talking about a children and divorce talk? I mean, c'mon. She's leading you around and calling the shots. Remember, if what you're doing so far isn't working, then do something else.
Stuck808,
Unfortunately, I do believe you are right about the saber rattling. I talked to my therapist about it today and her read is that my wife doesn't seem to have the "strength" to actually leave. It seems that by selling the house, she's just moving (with me moving to a different place).
She actually just called to say that the realtor can come around this Sunday to meet wit us.
I'm pretty sure I shook up her ground when I told her that I am taking the boys with me up to CT to visit my friends so I doubt if I'll be back by then. She asked if I was going to tell them anything and I said no (I already did, but didn't think she needed to know that).
She called back and asked if they would think it was weird if we just came by ourselves. I told her she was welcome to come but thought it would be a good opportunity to give her the time alone that she wanted to think about what she wanted. I told her I would just tell them that she wasn't feeling well.
She called back again and asked what time I was leaving on Friday. I said shortly after lunch and she reminded me that I would have to make arrangement to pick up my oldest from school early. I thanked her for reminding me.
I am thinking Last Resort Technique time as well. I remember reading it about it a while back, but the problem is she still has the DR book in the spare bedroom. I know she hasn't read it as I took a picture of how it was left a couple of weeks ago and it hasn't moved. I'm sure if I took it she would notice - reinforcing that I'm just going by a script. Can you help summarize or give some insight of what LRT looks like?
My therapist even mentioned about how last session my wife seemed happy and engaged/involved in my "positivity" discussion. I told her that what my wife didn't tell her was about what happened during the weekend where she basically said that the relationship will never work as she's not going to work on it. And how she was done trying to be nice and do things for me like going to counseling. My therapist was a little shocked. She thought that my wife is getting upset now as I am happier than she is.
Her take on it is similar to your's where she feels my wife is just trying to avoid making me angry and skate through the divorce process. She agreed that I need to give the "open the cage door, you're free speech" and the kids are staying with me speech and I'm not selling the house. She should just leave and figure out what she wants. I'm going to do that on Tuesday after counseling.
We also talked about my "enabling" behavior that is hurting my cause when my wife gets down about the situation. She said what was said here, that when I comfort her, I help her move to the next step. Can't believe I was so dumb. Guess I'm back to a white belt. I will not make the same mistake. She said I should just agree with her feelings (i.e. when she says the situation is bad, I should say, yes it is a bad situation).
So much drama. I'm off to have some beer and wings with my buddies. Should be a good time. I'm really looking forward to this weekend - seeing my buddy I haven't seen in a while.
I am good and will survive to thrive for me and my boys.
have fun.
In terms of the LRT, it's doing the opposite of what you've been doing in the past that wasn't working because you have nothing to lose.
It's pretty much doing what I talked about earlier about asking her to leave. Look, she's already talking about a realtor so she really doesn't give a damn about the house and what it means to you and the kids. So that's why you need to tell her that if it (the home) means so little to her, then she should leave. Why should you and the kids leave when you are perfectly happy there? Is she trying to dictate YOUR happiness? Is she trying to displace the kids and make them unhappy? She's the only one that doesn't want it, so she should just leave. If she says that it was pretty sudden for you to say that, tell her that you were thinking about it this whole time but didn't want her to get upset. But hey, she's going to get upset anyway regardless of what you do.
Does she really think that you're going to get along all hunky dory when she brings a new BF around? That's where the MLC person is living in lala land and thinks that everyone should fall in line with how THEY feel.
You are your own person with real feelings that she needs to respect and acknowledge. She really hasn't done so. She's been focussing all on her and her hurt.
I think your T was right in saying that she was probably upset because you seemed so much happier. If she wants to CHOOSE to stay unhappy, then so be it. If YOU CHOOSE to be happy, it doesn't affect her. That's when the MLC person needs to be confronted to see their own problems. I think you need to tell her that. You don't make her happy. Only she can. She needs to get self-motivated.
Is there any reason why you want to wait until your C session to tell her? Sounds like to me the sooner the better. I think if you give her the weekend to herself, she's going to be able to continue to harden her resolve to move on.
Oh and I would just take back the DB book. It's yours after all. If she thinks you're using it as a playbook, so what? She's been questioning all your changes anyway. If she chooses to think that way, then it's up to her.
How come she just does not file her own custody agreement with her attorney, (she does need your ok or even need you to agree) Her attorney would then present it to your attorney and if you did not agree to it then a court date would be set.
Has she been looking for an apartment? Really going out and looking for one?
Do you really feel she is pushing this process along as fast as she possibly can or do you sense a bit of stalling?
I dont about full on LRT, man that may just seal the deal, but I dont know. I think you were/are making progess doing what you were doing.
Going out with the guys and the trip is great!!
If you go LRT...I mean it is kind of like what got you into this mess in the first place kind like emotional neglect all over again.
I see some real progress, but you had done a little backsliding lately by monitoring her too much and initiating too much physically.
I don't know if it's LRT time, but I do think it is boundary time.
This would be my #1 boundary:
She is the one breaking up the family, therefore she must move out. If she wants custody of the kids, it's up to her to arrange it legally. If that's what you consider best for the kids, even more reason to fight for it.
Unless, YOU don't want to keep the kids in the family home, that's a different story.
I recommend this to all LBS people here: The WAS is the one breaking up the family, therefore they must be the one to go. Who and what gives them the right to kick the LBS out? Boundaries and consequences!
Sorry I couldn't check in sooner man, had my eyes on the financial markets lately instead of here.
I do appreciate all the support and insight. I'm out with my buddies at a strip joint. I have NEVER even gone to one since I've been seeing my wife. She emailed/text me a couple of times while I was out. I did respond
I'm still out. I've had about 10 drinks. I really don't care. I'm looking forward to the weekend though
Confused,
Have fun, but don't get too crazy and don't drive after that many drinks.
That's good looking out I know my wife doesn't care. I think that's why I don't
I do love her but I'm tied of the BS
I do know enough to not to get into any R talks with her
I did have a few good lap dances
confused, It sounds like you are feeling pretty worn down. Understandable. But please don't show her that she was right to doubt that your changes would last.
Don't know how your wife feels about you going to strip clubs, but I would think it is the last place a man who wants to save his marriage should be.
confused, It sounds like you are feeling pretty worn down. Understandable. But please don't show her that she was right to doubt that your changes would last.
Don't know how your wife feels about you going to strip clubs, but I would think it is the last place a man who wants to save his marriage should be.
Dudess
You are absolutely right. My wife would freak if she knew I was out a strip club let alone the lap dances my buddies bought me
I am very worn down. Don't know if I can slip below a white belt in DB'ing but I do feel that
It was a real gut shot this past weekend when my wife said that the mariage/relationship would work as she will not work on it
I do need to stay the course in my changes as I know it is as much for my boys as it is for me
I'm at the point where I know I'm good if my wife leaves as I know I can be happy with just my boys and I.
Survive and thrive
That has to be my mantra
Well I think you deserve to have a little fun. After all you have the right to do whatever. You are an adult. Not a saint.
I know that DBing can weigh you down and sometimes we just need to be uplifted every now and then. Just as long as it doesn't become a habit. Did she reschedule with her friend to go out?
No she didn't
Odd part about tonite was she woke me up about 4:30 (she came in from the spare bedroom) and climbed into our bed for the first time in 2 weeks
She said she had a bad dream
I know I was too touchy (she said something) but I did come from a strip joint. We did talk casually for a bit while we hugged for a while. One of the things she said was she didn't know if I came home
Then she had to go to the bathroom and said she was going back to the spare bedroom. I asked for another hug befpre she left. She clumbed on top of me and we hugged for a couple of minutes
Oh well, whatever
That's exactly why a physical separation would work well. On nights like this where she had a bad dream, she's going to realize that you are no longer there.
Make her miss you. That's what this is all about. Show her that all her pretense of being nice to you really isn't that at all. It's the fact that she still wants you. But you have to make her feel that loss.
I still suggest doing it before she moves out herself on her own terms.
How come she just does not file her own custody agreement with her attorney, (she does need your ok or even need you to agree) Her attorney would then present it to your attorney and if you did not agree to it then a court date would be set.
Has she been looking for an apartment? Really going out and looking for one?
Do you really feel she is pushing this process along as fast as she possibly can or do you sense a bit of stalling?
The thing about the custody agreement is that she doesn't want to have to go to court. She thinks we should be able to work something out between us rather than let a judge decide. I do agree as who better to know what's best for our kids than the parents.
She said she had actually found an apartment that she was ready to move into when she told me on Jan 9th. She didn't sign the lease, but she had it prepared in case I got angry and violent (which I have never done in the 11+ years that I've known her).
I don't think she pressing to go as fast as possible, but she's not stalling either. She seems to be trying to let it skate through "under the rader". My therapist thinks she's trying to move it along without getting me angry.
It was a real gut shot this past weekend when my wife said that the mariage/relationship would work as she will not work on it
That is exactly what she meant it to be
I see some real progress, but you had done a little backsliding lately by monitoring her too much and initiating too much physically.
I don't know if it's LRT time, but I do think it is boundary time.
This would be my #1 boundary:
She is the one breaking up the family, therefore she must move out. If she wants custody of the kids, it's up to her to arrange it legally. If that's what you consider best for the kids, even more reason to fight for it.
Unless, YOU don't want to keep the kids in the family home, that's a different story.
I recommend this to all LBS people here: The WAS is the one breaking up the family, therefore they must be the one to go. Who and what gives them the right to kick the LBS out? Boundaries and consequences!
Sorry I couldn't check in sooner man, had my eyes on the financial markets lately instead of here.
Spellfire,
Thanks for checking in - hopefully the financial markets treated you well.
I know I've been initiating too much physical contact - particularly when she climbed into bed with me last nite. I appologized last nite when she said something. I know it was wrong, but I did just get back from a strip club and had a lot to drink. I didn't tell her that - she knew I had a lot to drink. I almost appologized again this morning, but realized that I did it once already so that is enough. Perhaps I should say something, but really feel I appologized already so it would just be another sign of "weakness".
I would love to keep my kids in the family home. That is actually my second best solution to this situation. First being staying married.
I'm torn when to give her "boundary" speech. I could do it tonite (won't see her tomorrow as I'm leaving with the boys tomorrow afternoon). I guess I'll play it by ear and see how it goes tonite.
It was a real gut shot this past weekend when my wife said that the mariage/relationship would work as she will not work on it
That is exactly what she meant it to be
Just realized I made a critical typo. It should have read:
It was a real gut shot this past weekend when my wife said that the mariage/relationship would
NEVER work as she will not work on it
It was an odd morning. She seemed to be a little softer - she actually came over to me for a hug and kiss on the check. She was also very chatty and even when I went downstairs, she kept coming to the balcony that overlooks our family room to talk.
It still bothers me that I was so touchy last nite. I'm worried that she is going to be reluctant to come over for comfort again since she said that when I'm sexually touching, it makes her feel uncomfortable/awkward. I know I made a mistake and appologized. I want to bring it up again, but I guess the best thing I can do is just don't do it again and unless I get the right cues - if they every come.
I am looking forward to this weekend with my boys and my buddies up in CT. Should be a good time.
Is there any reason why you want to wait until your C session to tell her? Sounds like to me the sooner the better. I think if you give her the weekend to herself, she's going to be able to continue to harden her resolve to move on.
Stuck808,
I'm tempted to wait till I come back as I'm not sure how it will play out if I drop the bomb on her and then leave with the boys for the weekend. Not sure if being concerned about that really makes sense though.
Anyone have any thoughts on that?
When I do it, I was planning on saying something like this:
You have said that you want to leave the marriage and you don't want to stay in the house. We both agree that we want what's best for kids. I still believe in the marriage and that it can work. I do love you and feel that if you want to leave, you should leave. I feel what's best for the kids is to provide as much stability as possible and that means keeping them in the family home. I know that I will be able to take care of them and the house.
Any thoughts/feedback?
I know I've been initiating too much physical contact - particularly when she climbed into bed with me last nite. I appologized last nite when she said something. I know it was wrong, but I did just get back from a strip club and had a lot to drink. I didn't tell her that - she knew I had a lot to drink. I almost appologized again this morning, but realized that I did it once already so that is enough. Perhaps I should say something, but really feel I appologized already so it would just be another sign of "weakness".
Yeah, if you are going to apologize, just do it one time. Apologize for crossing a line she has set, but not for being human and having human urges.
Yeah, if you are going to apologize, just do it one time. Apologize for crossing a line she has set, but not for being human and having human urges.
Spellfire,
That's what I think I did last nite when she said something about how she's had to move my hand 6 times. She even asked how much did I have to drink. I'm pretty sure I appologized for crossing her boundaries - not quite sure since I did have a lot to drink and it was a little after 4AM.
I guess I'll play it by ear and see if she says something.
She did wind up calling me today about a gadget that I had been talking about. She said she found a site where it was a really good price so she wanted to know if I wanted her to order it. I told her that I will take a look at it tonite and did thank her for thinking about me.
I'm struggling a little today as I did have a lot to drink so the meetings I've had to sit through today have been pretty rough. Oh well, the price we pay at times.....
"I don't think she pressing to go as fast as possible, but she's not stalling either. She seems to be trying to let it skate through "under the rader". My therapist thinks she's trying to move it along without getting me angry."
I disagree to a point. I think she's doing it slowly so that she can strengthen her resolve at each point. The reason is because things could be seemingly going great between you two, but then she drops another mini bomb on you.
"I'm tempted to wait till I come back as I'm not sure how it will play out if I drop the bomb on her and then leave with the boys for the weekend. Not sure if being concerned about that really makes sense though."
You can tell her that you think a physical separation would do you both good since that is what she wants and that she can take the weekend to think about what she wants to do. She doesn't necessarily have to be gone by the weekend. The key is to make her think on things. Maybe with you and the kids gone, she'll start to feel the loneliness. That plus the added threat of her leaving because you asked her to will have her looking deeply into what she wants.
"I still believe in the marriage and that it can work. I do love you and feel that if you want to leave, you should leave."
Take out the last sentence and change it to something like "I love you very much, however I cannot make you love me. I love you enough that if you wish to be free, then you can go. I am not holding you back.
"I feel what's best for the kids is to provide as much stability as possible and that means keeping them in the family home. I know that I will be able to take care of them and the house."
Maybe change to: "While you go on your own personal journey to find out what you want, the kids need as much stability as possible and that means keeping them in the family home. I know that I will be able to take care of them and the house."
Then leave it up to her. I don't know...just my .02.
Stuck808,
Thanks for the feedback. I like how you work in the reminder that I'm giving her time alone this weekend to think about what she wants.
I think I'll take this flow for the conversation her:
"A physical separation is something that you want and I feel it would do us both good. With me and the boys away this weekend, you can think about what you want to do.
I still believe in the marriage and that it can work. I love you very much, but I know I cannot make you love me. I love you enough that if you want to be free, then you can go. I'm not going to hold you back.
While you're figuring out what you want, I feel the kids will need as much stability as possible and that means keeping them in the family home. I know that I will be able to take care of them and the house."
I suspect that she will react that I'm being selfish and mean. She has said in the past when I floated out the idea that she leave and I keep the kids that she wasn't trying to take anything away from me.
My plan to ju-jitsu around that one is to say:
"You said you wanted to get away from the house as well as do what's best for the kids. I feel this will help do both of these things."
Any thoughts/suggestions on that?
That sounds good. If she accuses you of being mean, just gently remind her that that is what she has repeatedly told you that she wants. Her own space.
When she said that, she didn't say "the kids and I want a divorce" just her. So you're giving her what she wants right? End it right there. Then let her stew/contemplate on all that while you're gone. I think maybe writing it down for her would be good too so that she can constantly go over it while you're away.
Her idea that she's not taking away from you is self-delusional. It's obvious she's taking away your family, your home and your kids half of their lives. Toss that back at her and see if she can still say that she's not taking anything away from you.
Remember, just say all of these things very business-like without much emotion. Imagine her like one of your kids who is pouting about not getting what he wants. You don't raise your voice, just state things matter of factly and honestly.
As much as she can try to argue with her, if you don't argue back, she'll calm down. At this point, she'll probably start hitting below the belt by talking about her past hurts, etc. So again, stop her and remind her how you had discussed that with her and that it was the past. Remind her that you had already apologized for your part, but since she can't accept that, you are giving her what she asked for.
See it just goes back to her. Deflect from you and back to her.
Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee my friend.
Thanks Stuck,
I like the idea of writing it down for her. Perhaps I should just write it down in a note and give her the note tonite, rather than trying to say it.
I could start by saying:
You know I'm a man of few words. There is something really important that I want to say, but wanted to be sure that I could communicate it clearly so I took the time to write a note.
Then I would hand her a hand written note with the following:
I still believe in the marriage and that it can work. I love you very much, but I know I cannot make you love me. I love you enough that if you want to be free, then you can go. I'm not going to hold you back.
A physical separation is something that you want and I feel it would do us both good. With me and the boys away this weekend, you can think about what you want to do.
While you're figuring out what you want, I feel the kids will need as much stability as possible and that means keeping them in the family home. I know that I will be able to take care of them and the house.
What do you think of that approach?
I like it short and sweet. However it's only a suggestion, so take it for what it's worth.
I was just recommending this because it seemed like your W was slipping away and you needed to take back possession of the ball.
Just remember to stay compassionate whatever you decide to do. It's as hard a decision on her as it is for you. It's just that she's got a headstart.
Well I found a card to write it in
I dropped the "A physical separation" sentence as I felt the preceding of "then you can go" said the same thing
Maybe I just wimped out but wanted to soften it somewhat. I think it still makes the message of letting her go and the kids are going to stay in our house
Any thoughts?
Well I found a card to write it in
I dropped the "A physical separation" sentence as I felt the preceding of "then you can go" said the same thing
Maybe I just wimped out but wanted to soften it somewhat. I think it still makes the message of letting her go and the kids are going to stay in our house
Any thoughts?
That sounds good. Whatever makes you feel comfortable.
She's still being nice to you, so if you decide to do this, stand tough.
Good luck.
Well, maybe you can say I wimped out or what but I didn't do it. I thought for sure she would bring up some relationship type of talk as I was getting cues from her that she didn't want any physical contact. Then she went to bed at 9:15. She had called me on the way home and we chatted a bit about non-relationship things. She vented just a little about work.
She seemed a little down when she got home. I didn't press her to find out - figure if she wanted to talk about it she would. I tried to stay upbeat and positive during dinner but I was still dragging a little from last nite.
She did mention how Friday is a busy day for her but made a comment about how at least she doesn't have to worry if she has to stay late at work (I'm leaving with the boys in the afternoon)
I hope she does take the time to really think about what is really happening.
My boys are excited about the trip tomorrow and so am I. It will be a nice break from dealing with my situation for a couple of days
Well have fun. One word of caution though. While you're gone she is probably going to come up with a plan on how to leave, find a place, etc. Not to be an alarmist, but that's been her pattern so far.
Just be prepared if that happens. It's not the big bomb that wears you down, it's alot of the little ones.
Stuck,
I know that's always a risk. Personally I feel that she won't leave without the kids. That's why I think she's pressing to get an agreement. She had found an apartment back when she dropped the bomb on Jan 9th (I found the apartment brochore).
I was prepared to give the speech but thought it would work best if she started a relationship talk. Maybe I should have just done it. There is always tomorrow morning. Or I could just leave the card for her (but that seems even more cowardly). I think I will at least drop the line that she uses this time to think of what she wants.
I think this weekend will be pivotal. I'm hoping that like the last 2 times I was gone for several hours she said she was worried about me and seemed relieved I got home
I appreciate your support. I hope I didn't let you down by not going with my original plan tonite
Of course you didn't let me down. You know your sitch better than I do, I just give advice as I see it. Just remember the Boy Scout's motto: be prepared.
One comment though: "I think I will at least drop the line that she uses this time to think of what she wants. "
Instead of just "what she wants" clarify it to say "what she wants IN LIFE". Don't have her thinking R. Ask her to think about what is it in life she wants. What are her goals? her dreams? what she wants to accomplish. The R is just a circumstance.
Well, I talked her this morning. I didn't give her card but said what was in there (no separation line though)
She asked if I wanted her to cancel the real estate agent appt. I repeated about having the kids stay in the house as long as possible for stability
Then she asked is it ok for her to go find an apartment. I told her that she is free to do what she wants and I'm not going stop her
I did ask her to find some time while we're away to think about what she wants for life. She says that doesn't have anything to do about it. She's taking it 1 day at a time and just wants a divorce.
I stumbled with that response but said I just felt it was important. Any suggestions on this one?
She did say she may want to talk during lunch before I left with the boys
I'm giving you your orange belt early, since she tested you and you didn't crumble. To earn purple, you are going to have to come to terms with the process she is pushing. You need to do this so that you can handle it cleanly with her. That means that when she makes time to discuss it, you don't freak out and backslide.
It is going to be tough, but your job is work on not taking it personally.
Well it sounds like I'm going to get a crack at my purple belt pretty soon.
My current read on my situation is that after our little discussion this morning, she's going to try to see if the apartment that she had found in Jan is still available (it most likely is as there are a ton of apartment complexes around with rentals available). If she does and sets a move out date, I know I can't force her to stay.
I've tried to give her reasons to stay by showing her I've changed. That's the best that I can do and I have come to that realization
The boys and I are leaving at 1 PM today to head up to see my friends in CT. It will be a good time.
She was totally emotionless during our discussion this morning. I've come to expect this. I guess it's her way of being strong. I got a little emotional when I got to talking about the kids. I'm frustrated with myself that I still haven't gotten that under control as I think it gives her some satisfaction when she sees me sad. If that's true, then I know she is not someone who I want in my life.
I know I looked a little weak at the end of my conversation as I told her that I didn't want to have this discussion when we were pressed for time in the morning and then just leave for a couple of days. I told her that if she wanted to talk, we could meet for lunch or she could just call me.
I'm very concerned of how she said that she didn't think knowing what she wanted to do in life was important and that she was just taking it one day at a time and right now she just wants a divorce. When she said that I told her that I felt it was important and it was something that I would like to know (bad move, as immediately after I said it, it sounded controlling and it was something that she would do for me).
If we do talk, I'll have to twist it around of how it's something I feel she should do for her to know what she wants in life or something like that.
Any thoughts?
I was detached enough that if she stayed I'd be fine, if she left I'd be fine. It was HER journey not mine. I told her I would love to be a part of her journey and where I wanted to help her achieve her dreams and desires. But she would need to want it. Then it came down to what she wanted. I kept asking her, but she had no answer because your typical MLC person has no idea what they want.
I think I found what I should have said. She's suppose to call me in a few minutes to talk
Well she called and we had a pretty long chat on the phone - about 30 minutes.
She told me that she likes the idea of me staying in the house to provide some stability for the kids. Then she did say that she wants to be true to her feelings and her feelings don't allow her to be comfortable staying in the marriage and house.
I then told her that I loved her very much and want her to stay but I know I'd be fine taking care of the house and kids if she left. I then pressed that I do want to be able to help her achieve her what she wants in life. She said she wants to be true to her feelings which are "saying" that she doesn't want to be in a marriage relationship with me. I told her that's not saying what she wants in life, just what she doesn't want, there is a big difference. I kept asking her but she had no idea.
I did wind up appologizing for being so touchy when she climbed into bed the other nite. I said I thought I had appologized but wasn't sure. She said I did so I dropped it at that.
I told her that I've also been trying to figure out what I want in life. In the past I had said that I wanted to be happy and she made me feel happy. I've realized now that's not true. She didn't make me feel happy. Only I can decide to feel happy. She had made me feel loved.
Right now I'm trying to decide what will make me happy. I didn't know that answer yet either. What I do know is that my kids will always make me feel loved so I will be good there.
I then shared with her that I now understand that a marriage means helping each of us achieve what we want in life. Since I didn't know what that was and I never understood what she wanted in life either. That has been one of our issues but I'm trying to figure out what I want and thought it would be good if she could spend some time to figure out what she wants in life.
She then pressed about custody and I just said we both agree we want what's best for the kids, but I do not know what that means either. I think it's important both parents are involved in their lives. I said I don't want that to be the only thing that is keeping her in the house.
She said that if she went and got an apartment she doesn't want me to hold that against her legall. I told her that if that's what she wanted to do, I wanted her to feel free that she could do that. I was not going to hold her back. What I did feel was important was that whatever she decided, we should continue to go to counseling together. She said that she would.
Then she talked about being friends after a divorce and that's when I told her that if we do get divorced, I told her that I would be civil and cordial, but I could not see being friends with the woman I love know I can't show her that I love her.
She said she had to go to another meeting but said that if I wanted to meet for lunch to talk, she would. I pushed it back on her to tell me what she wanted. If she wanted to meet for lunch to talk, I would love to, but would be fine if she didn't want to as we could always talk on Sunday. She sounded sad (like she was tearing up) and said she wanted to. I told her it would have to be an early lunch as I need to pick up our oldest son from school at 12:30 so we can leave for our trip.
Not sure if meeting for lunch is a good thing - may be good to let her be over the weekend feeling down. I need to pay attention to any "enabling" behavior that could strengthen her.
Any comments/suggestions/encouragement would be greatly appreciated!
I dont why or what but something is telling me she is not going to do it....she may go the bitter end but I just cant see her going through with it. My god leave her kids...because she was hurt...with no thought to the future.
She is confussed, how can someone let feelings run them, control them. Just imagine what the world would be like if people let feeling control them....we would be no better than animals.
I'm very concerned of how she said that she didn't think knowing what she wanted to do in life was important and that she was just taking it one day at a time and right now she just wants a divorce. When she said that I told her that I felt it was important and it was something that I would like to know (bad move, as immediately after I said it, it sounded controlling and it was something that she would do for me).
Yep.
If we do talk, I'll have to twist it around of how it's something I feel she should do for her to know what she wants in life or something like that.
Any thoughts?
You think it's important for her but she doesn't agree and it's her life so drop it.
We met for lunch. I made some small talk. She wound up getting a nose bleed. I tried to help/comfort her a little. She asked if there was anything else I wanted to say
I said I didn't want to repeat myself (something she's been complaining about) as I think I said everything I wanted to say. I did wind up giving her the card. She cried a little. It was hard but I didn't try to comfort her. She could tell I was sad as well
Before she left I told her that I do love her and believe in the marriage but know that's not how she feels right now. I said I believe it can work, not the way it was but how it can be. I believe in my changes and will make them habits
She said right now she doesn't love me like a wife should do so she can't seeing staying married
I told her I finally understood a marriage is about loving each other enough to help/let them achieve what they want in life, even if its not what I want. I told her I would love to be on that path with her once she decides what she wants in life, if she wanted me to
But I feel that the best thing I can do to show her I love her is to not stop her froming doing what she wants, even though its not what I want
She thanked me and left crying
I was sad but didn't break down nor comforted her. I did feel sad for how confused she is. I do truly love her
I'm sorry that this all happened today.
I had a feeling something like this might happen and that she would take the time away from you to look for another place.
At least you gave her the card which will let her think over things. It always amazes me how our W's can say that they can't think about "what they want" now only what they don't. Typical MLC talk where all they do is care about themselves and to heck with everyone else who gets dragged along with them.
From here on out, you might want keep things just strictly business and try being as detached as possible. If she says she wants to talk, you can ask her if anything's changed. Then if she says no, then you can say there's nothing more to talk about.
She's talking to you to make her feel better about leaving you. To clear her conscience. Don't think for a minute that she's serious about you right now. She's still only thinking about herself and her needs, and finds it easier to continue to blame you and your marriage for not allowing her to do what she wants to do. Which, of course, she has no idea what that is.
Honestly, I don't know what the point of her going to counseling with you is. Again, I believe she said that just to appease you. She's not serious about getting anything out of it and hasn't from day one. All of the stuff you discussed with the C, she's dismissed, but you haven't. So while you're learning and growing, she isn't. Tell her that if she feels she needs to see a C, then she should see her own, but you are looking at continuing to make yourself a better person even though she isn't.
I said I didn't want to repeat myself (something she's been complaining about) as I think I said everything I wanted to say. I did wind up giving her the card. She cried a little. It was hard but I didn't try to comfort her. She could tell I was sad as well
Don't tell her "I don't want to repeat myself." It appears you are trying too hard to show her that you are following her wishes instead of just doing it because it's more productive. Say nothing (mysterious) or say I'm fine right now and mean it. Be confident.
Before she left I told her that I do love her and believe in the marriage but know that's not how she feels right now.
Really you know how she feels? You basically just told her that she is stomping all over your beliefs. You are making R talk and it's unproductive so stop doing it. I would bet most women (your W included) that get married believe in marriage. Try to imagine how much hurt, frustration and confusion you have caused to her for her to reach this point.
I told her I finally understood a marriage is about loving each other enough to help/let them achieve what they want in life, even if its not what I want. I told her I would love to be on that path with her once she decides what she wants in life, if she wanted me to
But I feel that the best thing I can do to show her I love her is to not stop her froming doing what she wants, even though its not what I want
In a
healthy M if you truly love and truly give then what she wants is what you want. You want your beloved to be happy and you want to support them in their journey. Stop telling her that what she is doing is not what you want. You are repeating yourself. You just said you know what marriage is all about but you wont be on that path until....... she tells you what she wants. If you haven't figured this out women are totally comfortable changing their minds in a second and expect you to OK with it. Be on the path anyway. Aren't you married? Man up and lead.
I was sad but didn't break down nor comforted her.
Your W is crying in front of you. You won't get a cookie from me for not breaking down. Could you not have at least put your hand on her shoulder and shown a little compassion. Said "I understand." Nothing else just let her know you understand she is hurt. You want to grab her when it is good for you but when she is hurting you act stoic.
I did feel sad for how confused she is.
So think about it. What is causing all the confusion and what are you doing about it?
Then show her thru your actions.
Less talk and more work.
Coach,
all of your suggestions, CIPA has done throughout the sitch and it has changed nothing. So it's good that he's trying something different. If he had comforted her, she would have taken it as encouragement that she's doing the right thing. It's been her pattern.
And his saying that he "knows how she feels" is pretty spot on because she's been saying over and over again "this is how I feel". She's been pretty open in terms of what's on her mind, moreso than any of our spouses.
He's tried alot of things that have produced positive results and some negative. But in the end, it comes down to her.
You are handling this very well man. Huge difference from when you first arrived here. I know you are not seeing results, but believe me, there is a lot going on inside your W right now.
She is responding well to your boundaries. Be kind but firm in your resolve to stay in the family home with the kids. This whole thing is going to do enough damage to your kids without turning their whole world upside down at the same time.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts/encouragement. I did call her to let her know we made it to CT (she had asked). Very short call with very little conversation. She asked about traffic and I asked how her work went. Not much emotion
Big question will be what's the next move? If she's still there or not on Sun, I'm going to continue to be positive and upbeat. Acting as if everything is ok with the relationship if she's there.
Any thoughts or suggestions? I really don't want to do anything that will make her question the changes I have made. Just not sure if that's the best.
I doubt if she's not going to be there on Sunday. She's not moving out that quickly. I think both of you are just emotionally drained from today. Enjoy the weekend and try not thinking about her. You are there for the kids.
Also don't worry about her questioning the changes you've made. All this time she has stated that she doesn't believe in them, so it doesn't matter what you do one way or the other.
I think you've been very consistent in how you've been acting and so it still is up to her to decide what to do.
Probably when you get back, you should be polite to her and play it by ear. See if she calls you over the weekend and go from there.
My prayers are with you buddy.
Thanks for all the support
I do feel really good being in CT with my boys and the two closest friends I have and their kids. My boys are having a blast with their kids. Its good to be talking about something other than my situation
We did talk about my situation after all the kids went to bed. It was good to have people to talk to that really knew me and was there to support me (very similar to what I get on this forum but in person it is different)
It is late so I'm goimg to bed. Its been a tough day but I still feel it was a good one
Hay, I am so glad to here that you and the boys are out doing something fun together. All three of you need it!
I hear what your saying about talking to friends that love and support you right now, it means a lot.
Like you, having found this site has meant the world to me as well. In fact, I don't know how I could function without it right now.
Like you had said in a post to me, our stuations are similar. Especially the ages of your family members and mine. Kinda weird, lol.
You had suggested that I read your posts and I have religiously, I just don't say anything because I feel so..... well sh*%$y most of the time. I do have some good moments, but mostly not.
Having read your posts helps me to look at how I handle myself when dealing with the wife.
Like you, there is nothing in the world I want more than to reconcile/re-invent my marriage. To keep my family intact, healthy, happy, and loving. It's so hard to not express this overwhelming feeling to our wives right now. I feel like there is such a huge opportunity to make a difference in the lives of my family and I know you do to.
I know in my heart that the best thing you and I can do right now is to be the best man and father we can and to listen to the sound advice we are given here.
By the way I have also been married about 9.5 yrs., weird! LOL!
I retrospec it was a mistake as it probably had a more enabling behavior than the "soft" response that I was hoping for
The kids were playing in the woods so I sent a pic to the wife. She responded with "How r u guys" I responded with "Very good trip"
She sent funny pic back and I just joked back
I want her to miss me and the boys this weekend. Not sure if what I did with the pics helped that or not
We shall see. Its a good trip so far
It was a good day with my buddy and his family
We went to a kids interactive science museum and then the park. All the kids had a lot of fun
We had a good lunch (pizza with beer and apple juice). We got home about 3 hours after my 3 year old's nap time. I laid down with him to settle him for a nap (the other kids were playing so I didn't want him to feel left out). We both wound up taking a 2 hour nap (a first for me in years).
The kids played together nicely and we had a great dinner.
I wound up shooting pool with my buddy till 2AM while we talked a little about my situation but mostly laughing/joking about our past. It was great talking about the "simplier" times in High School and College - before things went crazy with work and then marriage/family
The only tough part of the evening was my wife sent me a photo at 1:30 AM of her martini with olives arranged like a p*nis with a caption of "When bad things happen to good martinis"
No idea what to make of that. I wanted to call/text her to find out what was going on but I didn't. I'm sure the right move is to ignore it but I do reaaly want to call her. I'm sure no good will come of a call though
It was a great day with a bizare end to the evening
Any thoughts?
She called us this morning to find out when we were coming home
we chatted for a few minutes and then she talked to the kids for a few minutes
I didn't ask how her weekend went, not sure if I should. My 180 is I should. LRT/Dark means I shouldn't. Its so hard to decide what to do
She called me back and let a message saying my mom is coming over next weekend
I so want to call her back and ask how her weekend went. Is that right or wrong to do?
I wouldn't call her back. Aren't you trying to stay dark?
If she calls you, fine, you can respond and still be "dark". Being dark is supposed to pique their interest, and alot of times, it provides a comfort cushion for the WAW because they don't feel harassed.
But I wouldn't initiate.
I'm not sure if I should be dark or not
My wife has always said that these changes are real and can't believe them. I don't want to reinforce that behavior
Guess I'm actually unsure what Dark is and will it conflict with my 180
Arghhhh!
This is really frustrating
I had a great weekend with my trip with my boys to CT. I told her about it and then she hits me with a several 1-2 punch combos
First combo was that she spent time shoping for things she would need when she moved out (which she said was soon)
Then she asked what I wanted to tell the kids. I told her that was her call as this is entirekly her decision. I still believe in the marriage and it can work
Second combo, she said she still didn't feel that I loved her as she felt I didn't know what I wanted
I asked if she knew and she said that she just can't put words around her thoughts so she tell me
I told her that I would love to share the journey with her if she would tell me, but only if she wanted to
Then I told her my priorities now is to have positive/enjoyable experiences with people that I love and care about. I see in the past it was things but now its the experiences as the experiences are what's remembered forever in people
The third combo came when she felt that when she called me last Weds and I told her that I was going to CT with the boys on Fri, it was like I handled things in the past. I had decided and she had no say in it. Plus she was upset that I didn't invite her.
I did appologize to her that if she felt that she wasn't invited. I told her that was not my intention as I said to her that I would love it if she came. She said she didn't really feel that was an invitation. Plus that was also the nite I was going out so she was doubly upset as she felt that I wasn't even going to talk about it
I told her that the entire trip thing came up last minute when I talked to my buddy Weds. I did acknowledge and validate when she said that I should have talked to her about it rather than just tell her what I was planning. Then she said it wasn't that important as she wouldn't have gone anyway
She was clearly upset and then said it was late so she was going to bed (it was 10PM)
Its just so confusing with her
I did have a great trip with my boys so I will not let her being upset take away those great memories
"I would love it if you come" is an invitation in my books. She is just pulling out stuff to give you a hard time.
Keep doing the 180s man, you can go dark later if necessary.
Assignment for you:
Write a list of things she is saying and doing that you don't like and/or disagree with.
"I would love it if you come" is an invitation in my books. She is just pulling out stuff to give you a hard time.
Keep doing the 180s man, you can go dark later if necessary.
Assignment for you:
Write a list of things she is saying and doing that you don't like and/or disagree with.
That's actually a tough question. The biggest thing that's she's done that I don't like and/or agree with is filing for a divorce
More recently, it's not sharing her feelings when they occur (my guess is she doesn't want to start a fight or get me angry). She seems to be finding/looking for reasons to hold onto her anger/hurt. This is making her act very selfish in moving forward with the divorce without consideration for the kids
Thanks for checking in Spellfire. When she hit me with the combos my wall held strong. I did appologize to her for making her feel like she wasn't invited but did tell her I felt I did.
I also appologize for making her feel that I told her like I wasn't discussing the trip like a concept with her (vs presenting it like a decision). I didn't get into the rational behind that as I purposely did it because I felt she would not go and was afraid she wouldn't let me take the kids.
I can see how she threw you in for a loop, but it wasn't entirely unexpected. We did discuss this earlier.
I agree with SF. You did ask her plain and simple. She's taking every excuse she can to break away from you. Now is the time to start apologizing and standing up to her. When she went on about not inviting her, you should have stopped her and reminded her that you did.
The thing is there is a certain point where you have to have her stop treating you like a doormat. She's going to accuse you of doing the same them that you did in the past, but you know what? It's different. You say it very calmly and matter of factly and don't lose your temper.
Tell her you've given her everything that she has asked for, yet she still makes excuses for what you're doing. It's wrong and she has to start treating you with respect.
She says that she is hurt and is pouting like a teenager. She has to again realize that the feelings are all her own and you've been very polite and courteous to her.
Find a way to anticipate her next move and cut her off from it. You can guess that she's going blame you at your next C session.
Assignment for you:
Write a list of things she is saying and doing that you don't like and/or disagree with.
I gave this question some more thought. I think it is so hard for me to really answer is that she doesn't act/treat me the way it sounds like most WAW's do. The biggiest may be filing for a divorce, but even that's not quite right as most WAW just leave.
She treats me with kindness when it comes to our day to day lives. She pretty much still does whatever I ask (except when it comes to the divorce or sex). I think that's her core nature - she's trying to be a "nice girl" all the time, trying to please everyone. It's almost like she's the girl version of the guy in the book of No More Mr. Nice Guy.
I had told my friends over the weekend how she was the first "nice girl" I had met and was "marriage material" (vs. party/club girls). I think that's why I fell in "love" and married her. What they were surprised was that we hooked up almost the first nite (not all the way since it was a bad time of the month for her), but the second nite wasn't for her. They were both surprised as they thought she was a "nice girl" and she would have waited.
In retrospec, I was very forward (tough guy jerk) back then so when we were making out in her living room, I had told her to take her clothes off. She exposed her top, the whole time just saying she could not believe she was doing it. She said she had never hooked up on the first nite before or perhaps she was thinking it was going to be a one niter from a bar pickup. Before she got to her bottom she excused herself to the bathroom (I thought it was to take care of birth control or freshen up) and came back to appologized that she couldn't since it was a bad time for her. I told her that was ok we can do other things tonite but we can check tomorrow. Which we did and she was ready, and that's how our relationship started.
Most of our relationship together had been that way, I would just tell her what I wanted and she would comply. She would try to "beat around the bush" if she didn't like something, but often I would miss it/didn't hear it (particularly if it was something that I felt strongly about). I do noticed that when it was related to something that I didn't have a strong opinion on, I would notice/realize that she was "beating around the bush" with something. That was the issue that over the years, she built up all this resentment that's pushed her to this point.
From a more tactical/day to day type of things, it's more physical:
1 - When we hug, she hugs back and sometimes offers her check to me, but usually doesn't kiss me back on the check. I do this one thing where I lean in for a kiss, even on her check, and I would stop about an inch or so away so she would have to lean into me (something I have been doing since I started kissing girls).
2 - Of course the lack of sexual contact is something I don't like or agree with as well
3 - Her jabs/picking of the fight could just be me being overly sensitive to our situation. Perhaps it's the feeling of walking on eggshells that I still have - which I suspect is tied back to my sense that she still is reluctant to share her feelings.
So right now, the divorce is the most significant thing that I don't like/agree with is and that she's acting very selfishly by not wanting to do anything to improve our relationship. I feel she doesn't want to work on the relationship because she is still stuffing her emotions and not bringing them up till after she's built up some resentment. Thereby enabling her to hold onto her anger/hurt as she walks out of the marriage.
I agree with SF. You did ask her plain and simple. She's taking every excuse she can to break away from you. Now is the time to start apologizing and standing up to her. When she went on about not inviting her, you should have stopped her and reminded her that you did.
The thing is there is a certain point where you have to have her stop treating you like a doormat. She's going to accuse you of doing the same them that you did in the past, but you know what? It's different. You say it very calmly and matter of factly and don't lose your temper.
Tell her you've given her everything that she has asked for, yet she still makes excuses for what you're doing. It's wrong and she has to start treating you with respect.
She says that she is hurt and is pouting like a teenager. She has to again realize that the feelings are all her own and you've been very polite and courteous to her.
Find a way to anticipate her next move and cut her off from it. You can guess that she's going blame you at your next C session.
I did stop her when she started about the "not being invited route". I said I was sorry that she felt that that she wasn't invited, but I did feel that I invited her by saying "I would love it if she would come". I also appologized that she felt that I was telling her vs. planning the trip with her, I can see how she interpreted it that way as I did make the tactical decision to tell her that way (I didn't say it that though). I did tell her that I had talked to my friend Weds afternoon and she had called shortly after I had worked it out with my friend.
I guess in hindsight, I should have reminded her that when I told her I was going to CT with the boys, and I had would have loved that she would have came, I had also told her that I was doing it to give her some time to think, which is what she had said she wanted. I see know she twisted it around to just be resentful this weekend and keep planning her moving out. The fact that she took the time instead to buy things that she would need when she moved out (her closet in the craftroom is full of stuff - i.e. throw pillows, comforter, etc.) Very disappointing, but it was what I had suspected she was going to do as well.
She is going to counseling with me tonite, but aside from the ones early on, she hadn't really blamed me for things. She spends most of the time talking about how she doesn't believe the changes. I'm planning on going into tonite's session talking about the positives from last week again (a shift in strategy that I started last Monday's session) since it at least got her more engaged/positive during the session.
This time around, I'm going to add about somethings that would enhance/raise the bar on the positives.
I also share during the session, my insights on how I view things differently, but this time I'm also going to work in trying her opinion/thoughts (she expressed some last time, but I'm trying to pull her into it more).
Well I scheduled my third session with my coach today. It's the last one I had paid for already (I only bought 3).
I'm disappointed as clearly she is moving out, but I knew this day would come. I was hoping that my changes would come fast enough and be strong enough from getting to this point. Not just for me, but to prevent our kids from ever being impacted.
The odd part of it was this morning started out as every other morning. We did wind up hugging good morning and she leaned her check in for a kiss. We did hug good bye. We laughed and joked around as in every other morning. She mentioned that her mom can pick up our oldest from school on her way her to watch them so we can go to counseling.
Very un-nerving and confusing as she seems so ready to go out the door as well.
I know I can't control what she does, behaves or thinks. I can only influence it by controlling what I do, behave and think. There is just so much conflict in what she does. The most confusing part of it is to me is that, aside from the sex/physical, she is acting exactly the way she has always been through out our marriage.
I know my primary love language is physical, but it wasn't the sex that made me feel loved. Sex was actually one of our issues, as my depression had made me un-interested, so we would only be intimate ever 2-3 months. Ironically, she has said we have had more sex in the last 3 weeks (twice), than we had in the 4 months prior to the divorce bomb. What was odd is that I would get a different feeling from her when we were intimate prior to the divorce bomb, now it feels like just sex.
Since she's snapped me out of it with her divorce, all I can do is think about being intimate with her. Not just sex, but just to hold her. She in the past would always just touch my arm, shoulder, leg as her way to show me she loved me. That filled my heart but I never realized that I was letting her's run empty. I've been trying to fill hers again, even as mine is running empty (it's been filled by my sons, but it's not the same). Unfortunately, her's is closed to being filled by me.
I've limited/stopped a lot of the physical touches as she said they made her feel uncomfortable. Now I just give her hugs and check kiss when I am coming/going from the house. She keeps bringing up that she can't see it working as she still sees me as the person who negelcted her over the years and made her feel unimportant, unloved and emotionally abandoned.
She says she sees the changes and is proud that I've made them, but I do sense that she doesn't believe them. Perhaps she doesn't want to believe them. Who knows....
I need to remind myself that these changes are for me and the people who want to be around me. If that's not her, it will be her decision.
I still feel what I said to her last Friday morning was right, that I really do love her and believe the marriage can work. I also love her so much that I want her to feel free and I'm not going to stop her.
I used to beat myself up almost constantly everyday for not getting it earlier. Now I do it for a brief period about once/week - that's usually when I journal it on this forum
I'm sure my coach will be my cheerleader to pick me up. I was going to save this last session for the day after she moves out, but was feeling really disappointed today.
I guess it's part of the wild swings I must expect now that I've decided that I will allow myself to enjoy life (my depression was my way of controlling the down feelings, I would not enjoy life to limit the wild swings).
I had a great weekend with my boys up with my closest friend and his family up in CT. I will always have those positive/fun memories. I also know there will be more. I had hoped that my wife will be in those memories as well. I know that's her decision whether she will be there or not. I know I will be there for my boys.
I know one of the things that also hurt this weekend as she spent Sat nite with her friend and husband who are very happily married (HS sweethearts) and have a enjoy life attitude and let someone else worry about tomorrow. Her girlfriends is the one who she had vented with 2 years ago and had asked her what she would do if we didn't have kids. She had said leave. I know she's enabling my wife by saying you need to do what makes you happy. I'm not sure if she really understands what's she is doing. I'm tempted to talk to her girlfriend but I'm sure that will not be a good thing to do. I'm so confused and I'm hurting.
I feel like I've failed my kids...
I'm trying to have a good day but it is hard today.
I just got off a call with one of my close friends.
She reminded me something that was really important - I'm not failing my kids as I'm not the one leaving. I made mistakes in the past, but I've learned from them and am making the right changes. It's her decision whether to be open to seeing/accepting the changes.
I can't live in the past of what could have/should been done or said. I need to live today and enjoy today and the future. Very similar to the Kung Fu Panda quote that goes something like the past is the past, that's why it's called history. The future is unknown. But today is a gift, that's why it's called the present. Or something like that, but I think you can get the gist of the message.
My wife is trying to be true to her feelings (so she says). She said on Friday before I left with the boys is that she feels that she loves and cares for me as a person, but just doesn't love me like a wife should love a husband which is why she wants to leave the marriage. She was crying when she said it.
I guess part of me I was hoping she would be sad over the weekend and miss me. That didn't happen. Instead she chose to find something to be angry and resentful about. That was her decision, it is impossible for me to be perfect enough to prevent her from every finding something to be angry/resentful about. I guess that's part of a person's choice to love - to be able to accept that person for all their faults.
I'm feeling much better now. It's amazing how talking to someone who understands and cares can change your day....
My wife is trying to be true to her feelings (so she says). She said on Friday before I left with the boys is that she feels that she loves and cares for me as a person, but just doesn't love me like a wife should love a husband which is why she wants to leave the marriage. She was crying when she said it.
My wife has said something very similar to me but has since recanted and now says she loves me. Keep your chin up. Now that she's moving out she may change her mind after she's been on her own for a while. You never know. I'm still trying to figure out how you can just all of the sudden not love someone. My wife is currently enjoying(or so it seems)her "single" life. I can only hope that she misses what she has very quickly and I hope the same for you. Remember, it's her decision not yours. You make the right one and take the high road always!
I'm feeling much better now. It's amazing how talking to someone who understands and cares can change your day....
Oh so true, it is nice to have an outside perspective as they can be less emotional and more objective as it is not happening to you. Keep getting support from those who will give it, just don't abuse it.
Oh so true, it is nice to have an outside perspective as they can be less emotional and more objective as it is not happening to you. Keep getting support from those who will give it, just don't abuse it.
You are right about being careful not to abuse it. I've been building my network very slowly/carefully. I've got a married couple that is retired (I count them as 2 since the husband and wife are so different and when I talk on the phone, it's usually just one of them), a former co-worker, a person at work (who unfortunately works for me, but she is a WAW so its nice to get that perspective), a long time friend that is in DC and now my long time friend and his wife that I just came back from visiting in CT. I basically call each of them once every week or so. I allows me to get some support almost everyday.
And of course the people on this board.
Thanks for everyone time!
I'm still working on what to say/do during counseling tonite. I have a call with my DB coach this afternoon so maybe I'll get some more answers then.
Last week I started the strategy of focusing on recent positives. Our counselor/my therapist had thought it was the most encouraing session yet as my wife seemed engaged/happy. Problem is, my wife nor I ever brought up her pushing the custody agreement and the fact that she said that the marriage would never work because she's not going to work on the relationship.
I think I'm going to stay on the positive route - may be tough to find some positives over the last week.
One of the positives that I had brought up at the prior session, was that it felt like she was opening up/getting more comfortable in sharing her feelings/needs. The example last Monday was how she expressed it was ok that I was caressing/touching her leg/feet and how she asked about going out on St. Patricks day with her girl friend even though she knew I had plans. The counselor commended us on the improvement and we talked about what's changed that made us comfortable to have that level of dialog (I know, more discussion of the past, but I ju-jitsu'd it around to emphasize why it's a real change).
So I thought about starting with this:
I feel that we were able to continue to build on how we are able to discuss things over the past week as well. I think we can enhance can enhance our comunication where we continue to feel free to express our feelings.
For example, last Tues it didn't work out for her going out on St. Patricks day. She expressed how she appreciated me accomodating what she wanted as well as sharing how she was disappointed that she it didn't work out going out with her girlfriend. I had sensed that there was something making her sad during dinner, but she didn't bring it up until after the kids went to bed.
One of the things I think we can both do is improve telling each other how we feel earlier - rather than walking on eggshells. I should have said something to her earlier that I felt that something was bothering her (I didn't because I thought it was related to our situation and didn't want to check her temperature). If we had talked about it at dinner, we could have had a more enjoyable evening.
Then I was going to talk about how she felt how I had discussed my trip to CT with her on Weds nite. Since I went out Weds nite with my friends, I didn't get a chance to really talk to her about it. I had sensed that something was bothering her again on Thursday nite. I wish I had said something then, but I'm guessing it was about my trip to CT and how I discussed it. I was glad that she felt comfortable sharing her feelings with me, but feel it would have been beneficial if she shared those feelings with me before Sunday.
I've a number of those that I can bring up as examples, but I would expect that our counselor will ask her why she didn't express her feelings earlier.
So it is starting to look like my theme will be for tonite's session will be I see improvements in our communications but still see that we are still uncomfortable with sharing them when they occur. This is hurting how we interact.
Any thoughts?
Hay confusedinpa, first off, I am so glad to hear you had a great weekend with the boys. Napping with your son, does it get any better than that.
Like I have said in another post, I am way to sucky at this to give you any good advice except to say, follow the advice of the DB Vets on here. They are looking out for you.
Now I can't say I am doing as they say either, but I am doing my best. I have failed a lot in the last week. Just read my posts and responses and see. By the way, if you are not already doing so, read other peoples posts you has given great insight because your 'actually detached' when you read them.
I have begun to read yours religiously. It's funny I think we handle and view some things in a similar way.
In your sitch, I can't say how fortunate you are that you still have physical contact the your wife. As in my case we haven't made love since december and we no longer hug or kiss. I stopped on the advice of those on this sight. I agonize over it daily!
Like you I don't know wether to go dark or just continue my 180. I never know what is working and I don't want her to think anything negative.
Well if you can put as much of what your DB coach tells you on here so that I may pirate some of the advice,LOL. I can't afford it otherwise I would spend every penny I had on it.
Hold your head high, your a strong man and a great father.
When you kiss and hug in the morning, are you initiating it or are you still ignoring her and letting her come to you? If you are initiating, you've got to stop it. It's like an addiction where you're getting a "fix" from her. Again it shows your neediness.
At the C session, just be sure she doesn't go back to blaming you for things like this weekend. Remind her that you asked her and that you told her that you needed the time alone. Which is what she's been asking for. Again, you're not a mind reader and if she wanted to go, she should have just said so. You can't keep taking the blame for everything. It's called establishing a boundary and not being a doormat. There comes a point where our spouses have to learn to take personal responsibility.
The fact that your W isn't even thinking about what she wants shows that she's not dealing with anything. She hasn't learned a single thing and is bound to repeat the problems in whatever relationship she's in. I'm hoping your C can concentrate on her issues, then she can see that the problem isn't her M. It's her and her attitude.
I always find it odd that our WAWs continually say things about how they know what a M should be like and they know it's not supposed to be like this, or they don't give us the love that a W should. We are the ones who actually study and read up on what M should really be and they just "think" they do. Very sad.
My W did the same thing and I have to constantly remind her that she has a voice and that keeping it inside isn't going to make things better for her.
Again, just say it calmly and lovingly without accusing.
Also, you've got to think positive again. You mention that "it was going to happen". Who says? When you were dating her, you didn't know if you had a shot at her or not, but you stayed positive and got her. That's how you have to see things again. Stay positive so that you don't reflect any negative feelings.
Had a very good conversation with my coach. It's the last session of the 3 I paid for. I see there are going to be at least one more tough moment ahead, that's her moving out so I may sign up for another session later. I did ask her what to do if she did move out and she said just focus my attention/energy the kids and go dark with my wife. Little concilation, but oh well, whatever.
I did spend time getting her caught up over the last 2 weeks. I'm going to continue working/tweaking my 180 but generally most of the discussion was around getting me ready for the counseling session tonite.
She did offer that if my wife brings up leaving again, I should liken it to suicide. It is a very permanant solution to a temporary problem. The time that we are going through is a temporary problem. That's why it's called working on a marriage (or something like that, I'm going to have to mull that one over some more)
Another thing that she threw out there was the next time my wife says that she needs to be true to her feelings and she doesn't feel that she can love me like a wife should. I should throw up the notion that feelings can't drive decisions as feelings come and go. Intelect is what needs to drive the decision. All a divorce/seperations will do is trade a new set of problems for the old ones, but you will still have the feelings. Again, I'm going to have to mull over this one.
Anyway, the approach/theme I'm going to take for the counseling session tonite is:
I feel like we've made some progress in our relationship as we are beginning to feel more comfortable with talking/sharing our feelings/thoughts. One of the things that we had talked about is how I had thought it was my wife that made me happy. Now I understand that I am the only one that makes me happy. She made me feel loved.
Something else that I understand now is that marriage doesn't make you happy either. All marriage does is make you married. It is up to each of us to figure out how to be happy in a marriage. Neither my wife and I have ever seen it work in our families (both of our parents are divorced). I had read 87% of marriages where both sets of parents are divorced, fail. If it's only one set, it is 79%. It seems that a divorce really shatters children's confidence in relationships.
We've had a very comfortable/good marriage, but I've been spending a lot of time trying to think about what would make the marriage more loving and to make it feel more happy. Can you (the counselor) help with that? (The risk her is my wife may jump in to say that's not what she wants, but it is suppose to be marriage counseling, not divorce counseling).
If it gets down a path that doesn't seem to help, I was going to use the following:
My wife had told me that she had needed space to think a few weeks ago. She had brought it up again a couple of weeks ago. That was why I had set up my weekend trip to CT. I had told her that I would lover for her to come. Afterwards, I found out she felt unloved as she didn't feel like I wanted to invite her. What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants.
I'll fine tune this a few more times before the session, but I think this is how I'm going to go. It talks about some positive, but starts working more towards actions to improve.
When you kiss and hug in the morning, are you initiating it or are you still ignoring her and letting her come to you? If you are initiating, you've got to stop it. It's like an addiction where you're getting a "fix" from her. Again it shows your neediness.
This is the conundrum I have struggled with. One of the core issues my wife had brought up was that in the past she felt unloved as I didn't hug/kiss/touch her enough. My 180 was to do more of that. I've backed it off to non-sexual touches so I can stay consistent with my 180, but not be sexually pursuing. Occasionally she'll initiate the hug (usually because she needs her back cracked), but usually I walk up to her. If she is evasive, I don't pursue, I just hug my kids. If she engages (i.e. steps/turns towards me) then I hug her. For the kiss on the check, I lean in until I'm about an inch away. Then she will lean over.
I always find it odd that our WAWs continually say things about how they know what a M should be like and they know it's not supposed to be like this, or they don't give us the love that a W should. We are the ones who actually study and read up on what M should really be and they just "think" they do. Very sad.
I agree 100%. That's part of the theme I'm driving in our counseling session tonite. Our consellor had agreed that we had a good comfortable marriage that would have been fine for many other couples, but it seems like my wife is looking for one that is more passionate. So I've tweaked it to loving and happy as passion in a relationship is only the first 2 years and I know that it will never come back with that intensity.
Also, you've got to think positive again. You mention that "it was going to happen". Who says? When you were dating her, you didn't know if you had a shot at her or not, but you stayed positive and got her. That's how you have to see things again. Stay positive so that you don't reflect any negative feelings.
You are right about positivity. I had a really bad morning as I snuck a peak in my wife's craftroom closet this morning as she was taking a shower. She had told me she was shopping for stuff for when she would move. It was a shock when I saw it all. Very sad.
I'm better now and ready to keep trying.
I would suggest just stop doing the physical touching altogether. From what you described it is you initiating it and she's just placating you by reacting to it. You've got to get to the point where she's the one initiating it.
Forget about the 180s for a bit. It comes down to what works and what doesn't work and obviously all the stuff you've been doing hasn't had any affect on her. You've got to do something that will rock her world to shake her out of her funk. Which is why I suggested you give her moving out talk before you left. However, because you told her that she could come with you, that blew that deal. You're easing her into her position too nicely.
Or to put it another way. In terms of what you're doing, "how's that working for you"?
Just some more tweaking of my counseling "intro"
I feel like we've made some progress in our relationship as we are beginning to feel more comfortable with talking/sharing our feelings/thoughts. One of the things that we had talked about is how I had thought it was my wife that made me happy. I understand now that my wife doesn't make me happy.
Something else that I understand now is that marriage doesn't make you happy either. All marriage does is make you married. It is up to us to figure out how each of us will be happy in a marriage. Neither my wife and I have ever seen it work in our families (both of our parents are divorced). I had read 87% of marriages where both are children of divorced, fail. If only one is a child of divorce, it is 79%. It seems that a divorce really shatters a child's confidence in relationships.
Now we've had a very comfortable/good marriage, but I've been spending a lot of time trying to think about what would make the marriage more loving and to make it feel more happy. How can we do that? (The risk her is my wife may jump in to say that's not what she wants, but it is suppose to be marriage counseling, not divorce counseling).
If it gets down a path that doesn't seem to help, I was going to use the following:
Here's an example where I was trying to do something loving for my wife. She had told me that she had needed space to think a few weeks ago. She had brought it up again a couple of weeks ago. That was why I had set up my weekend trip to CT. I had told her that I would love for her to come. Afterwards, I found out she felt unloved as she didn't feel like I invited her. What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants.
In terms of what you're doing, "how's that working for you"?
Here is my conundrum, before she hit me with the bomb, I was in Dark mode (100% emotionally detached) because of my depression.
She has said that she doesn't believe my changes are real. I did say that she believed in them enough to have her feelings change to the point that she felt we were friends. Unfortunately, she doesn't feel that she can love me as a wife should.
So it worked for me that before she said that she couldn't stand the site of me. So that is very minor progress.
How do I get the next step without destroying any of her confidence in my changes?
You're not really changing your changes, you're actually just giving her what she wants. The thing is that if you read through your posts, when she calls the shots based on her timeline, she's fine and happy. But when you assert something, she changes it to how YOU really haven't changed, YOU are being selfish, etc.
See she blames you when it's convenient When she starts feeling uncomfortable.
What you want to do is remain compassionate and understanding, but also do what YOU think is right for YOU. She keeps saying that she wants to do what's right for you, well all you're doing is what is right for you. She can't say what's best for you anymore than you can for her.
Establish a boundary. That's all there is to it. No woman respects a doormat. And you can't expect to get a respectful response from her until she starts treating you with respect.
Maybe you can bring that up in C about how she has been treating you without respect. She'll say all the stuff about how she's been "allowing" you to ML to her, be friends with her, etc. But she's going to have to learn that that's not "respecting" you. That's her placating you because she feel sorry for what she's doing.
Let me put it to you this way. When my W and I separated, I didn't initiate any physical contact at all to see what she would do. Which of course was nothing. So we didn't even hug for a good 7 months not even at Christmas, New Years and special occassions. Then when she came back and I brought that to her attention, she was surprised at how cold and distant she had become. Then she understood it was her that was causing her negative feelings and not me.
You've got to turn it back around so it's focusing on her problems and not the M.
What you want to do is remain compassionate and understanding, but also do what YOU think is right for YOU. She keeps saying that she wants to do what's right for you, well all you're doing is what is right for you. She can't say what's best for you anymore than you can for her.
Establish a boundary. That's all there is to it. No woman respects a doormat. And you can't expect to get a respectful response from her until she starts treating you with respect.
Maybe you can bring that up in C about how she has been treating you without respect. She'll say all the stuff about how she's been "allowing" you to ML to her, be friends with her, etc. But she's going to have to learn that that's not "respecting" you. That's her placating you because she feel sorry for what she's doing.
Guess I'm really struggling with this boundary thing and the respect thing then.
From my perspective, there are two right things for me, although they, in my mind, are tightly related:
1. Work on trying to save the marriage.
2. Make decisions for what's best for the kids, not because it's what we want for ourselves. That means stability.
Are those boundaries or are they too broad?
Too broad. Number one is a given. That's what we all want. Number two is just the results that we want from number one.
A boundary is like:
I will not remain in a M when there is OM involved.
I will not be talked down to. We will discuss things as equals.
Our children will remain in the home to maintain a consistent level of stability.
Stuff like that. They are a list of things you will or will not tolerate as you're going through this. Concrete things.
On the flip side, you should have your list of concrete goals like:
She will talk to me with more respect.
She will hug me first and initiate ML.
She will ask me how my day is.
Both lists are very important when DBing. It gives you focus and it gives you a picture in your mind of what your M should be like.
Another last tweak - I would be interested in thoughts/comments if anyone has any:
I feel like we've made some progress in our relationship as we are beginning to feel more comfortable with talking/sharing our feelings/thoughts. One of the things that we had talked about is how I had thought it was my wife that made me happy. I understand now that my wife doesn't make me happy.
Something else that I understand now is that marriage doesn't make you happy either. All marriage does is make you married. It is up to us to figure out how each of us will be happy in a marriage. As both of us are children of divorce, neither my wife and I have ever seen that in our families. I had read 87% of marriages where both are children of divorced, fail. If only one is a child of divorce, it is 79%. It seems that a divorce really shatters a child's confidence in relationships.
Now we've had a very comfortable/good marriage, but I've been spending a lot of time trying to think about what would make the marriage more loving and to make us feel more happy.
A few weeks ago, she had told me that she had wanted a couple days alone to think. She had brought it up again a couple of weeks ago. I had told her that's was why I had set up my weekend trip to CT. I had told her that I would love for her to come but I thought the more loving thing to do was to give her the time to think that she had wanted. Afterwards, I found out she felt unloved as she didn't feel like I invited her. What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants.
After we get past that point, if there is time in the session I would get into:
She told me how she spent Sat eveining with her girlfriend and her husband. She shared with me how happy they seemed to be. Maybe it's time for us to crank up some happiness in our relationship. What can we do to do that?
"What did she want me to do so she felt loved? I just want to understand so I can give her what she wants."
That's where the problem is. She has told you that she's not thinking about what she "wants". Just what she doesn't want. Maybe your C should focus on that. And when your W says that she "wants" a D, flip it back to say, no, I mean what do you want in life? Have your C focus on that so that she thinks about herself rather than the M.
Right now she views the M as crap because she can't get over stuff. Well, like you said above, the M doesn't make you happy, you make yourself happy.
ding ding ding.
That's the enlightened thought that all of us LBS find out. But it's not until our WAWs discover and believe that nugget of truth for themselves will they stop running.
Too broad. Number one is a given. That's what we all want. Number two is just the results that we want from number one.
A boundary is like:
I will not remain in a M when there is OM involved.
I will not be talked down to. We will discuss things as equals.
Our children will remain in the home to maintain a consistent level of stability.
Stuff like that. They are a list of things you will or will not tolerate as you're going through this. Concrete things.
On the flip side, you should have your list of concrete goals like:
She will talk to me with more respect.
She will hug me first and initiate ML.
She will ask me how my day is.
Both lists are very important when DBing. It gives you focus and it gives you a picture in your mind of what your M should be like.
I guess this is where the other conundrum lies.
Aside from the physical, she is treating me and talking with me exactly like we were happily married.
The gut check is when we start talking about matters related to the divorce. That's when she gets upset and tries to start a fight or get me mad or makes demands. I've stopped getting pulled into that trap and have just flipping things back at her. I'm not perfect at it, but getting better (unfortunately I've been getting a lot of practice)
Right now, she asks me how my day went, she usually initiates some contact during the day (she didn't today, it's getting me anxious as I suspect that she's probably signing a lease today, but I knew that day is coming), she will ask me if I need a drink, she will ask what I want for dinner, etc.
I guess the boundaries could be:
1 - When she talks to me about matters related to the divorce, she will treat me with respect - no yelling, threats, talk down to, demanded upon, etc.
2 - The children will stay in the family home to provide stability.
3 - If we get divorced, we will be civil, but we will not be friends
4 - If she dates/sleeps with someone while we are physically separated, it is over, we will not be friends and I will fight for everything in the divorce
How does that sound?
Sounds good. Definitely keep numbers 1 and 2 upfront. The other two you can do if it comes up.
All her actions has shown that she's the one driving the roller coaster and taking you along with her. Let her wallow in her own confusion. You notice it's okay if she brings up D matters, but when you do, she gets hostile. It's all the part of the D not following HER plans. Get her to see the negatives in herself rather than the M.
With an MLC person that's the hardest part because they don't see the problem as being themselves. But there are "ah ha" moments that hopefully you or the C can bring out of her.
#4 sounds controlling. Do you really think you can build a wall high enough to keep her from sleeping with someone else? Do you want to? Do you want to be a husband or a warden?
It was a really tough counseling session
It started as we walked into the resturant for dinner she said that she was going to sign a lease for an apt this week and wanted to know what day I can pick up the kids so she can do that. I didn't answer.
During dinner I went into how divorce is a permanant solution for a temporary problem and how I still believe the marriage can work. She said that she has no feelings for me as she didn't miss me at all this weekend. She said that she will move in April. I asked her to wait till the school year is over and she said she waited long enough. Very selfish. She did commit to continuing counseling while we were separated.
During counseling I still used my intro. My counselor went along and probed how she felt and why didn't she communicate right away. Then she probed what I was thinking and felt when I communicated about my CT trip. It was a tough discussion as what I intended to be a loving act of giving her space was delivered/recieved as a "controlling" act just like I had done before.
Then we got into what can be done differently so she would have seen it as a loving act. She said if I presented it as an opportunity and then discussed it. The strategy of shocking her backfired as I was afraid she would fight me taking the kids away for the weekend. Instead as she was resentful the whole weekend she didn't miss me at all. Arghhh!
We then talked about how I told her that I loved her enough that I'm not going to stand in her way of doing what she wanted. I didn't agree nor was I going to help either. That's where we talked about her planning on moving in April. I also asked how that helps us establish the connections or help the marriage
The we talked about how to have a loving/happy marriage. It came down to communication - freely expressing the thoughts and feelings, including the thought process.
I actually put it to use when we got home as we had to plan wrapping my 3 year old's B'day presents (he turns 3 tomorrow). We talked about when to do it and where and how. She said it was a good conversation/example of a good conversation. I will have to remember that one
Before she went up to bed, I gave her a hug. I said that I really don't want her to go but understand that she needs to. I went to break away from the hug but she held on. It was the longest hug we had for a while.
In retrospec I should have said that I don't want her to go but know this is what she wants to do. I see what I said was enabling. I have to pay attention to that one.
She did hint around to figure out how to move some furniture. I didn't offer any help/suggestions - not that dumb
Tough session. I still feel good with myself and know I'm doing the best I can. Either way I will be ok
I know some people who say a separation will help. I still don't see how it does in my situation
Right now my wife says she doesn't miss me when I was gone with the boys the past weekend (nor did she the last time I was traveling for business for a week)
If she doesn't miss me, then how does that help?
How do I continue to show her how I've changed? Or Db'ing?
I'm not emotionally down. Just confused to what's the next step in this journey.
It takes a separation of at least a month. And that is no or as little contact as possible.
"She said if I presented it as an opportunity and then discussed it."
She continues to put the blame on you for her path and it's sad that she's not taking any personal responsibility. To me, you asked her and that was that and you told her it was time you needed to think and time to give her to think. It's pretty concrete to me and if she was hurt, then she should have spoken up. How are you supposed to learn what "hurts" her if she doesn't tell you? I ran into the same thing with my W.
Is there any reason why you're still going to attend C? It continues to sound like she's doing it just for you.
Right now my wife says she doesn't miss me when I was gone with the boys the past weekend (nor did she the last time I was traveling for business for a week)
If she doesn't miss me, then how does that help?
How do I continue to show her how I've changed?
'Miss' might be the wrong reaction to hope for. You 'miss' somebody that has died or moved so far away that your chances of visiting them only come every few years.
You have kids together, your going to see each other often. She's not going to 'miss' you in the sense your looking for.
Your opportunity comes when you personally break out of that married identity you've been broadcasting to the world for so long. I can see it in your post. Your so predictable, it's boring. Don't take this personal, but consider you loose part of yourself when your married. It's that part she found attractive in the first place and that's the part she can 'miss' if she could see it again.
Does that make sense to you? It took me a while to rediscover it. The ex now missis it. She's the pursuer now, but it's to late for her in my case. Many on here can probably tell you the same thing. There are some who've successfully attracted their spouses/ex spouses back only to find that dbing was more beneficial to them personally than their marriage. I don't think the authors had that concept in mind from the beginning, but it's definitely a by-product. If you can understand this concept early on, you have a good chance at success.
We had talked about the "miss" part last nite.
She said she missed the boys but didn't miss me.
She explained the feeling as how she is excited to see a friend she hasn't seen in a while. One would get excited about hearing about what's happened as well as the anticipation of spending time together.
So maybe "miss" is a bad word for it, to me it sounds like it's more looking forward to enjoying spending time with someone. It sounds like right now she doesn't enjoy spending time/seeing me. She said that when she is around me and in the house, she just sees the negativity.
I guess that's how a physical separation can help as it gets her away from having all the negativity in front of her. We had talked about that during dinner as well.
She also said that she's still planning on wearing her ring (not the real one that we never resized because I kept putting it off, but the "fake" one that she bought herself), and she's planning on using the time to think, read, start her own therapy and even take some classes (cooking, aromatherapy) that she felt that she couldn't when she was with me. She said she wasn't planning on changing her "lifestyle". She explained that meaning that she's not planning on turning her life into a wild party/happy hour.
We do have to still come up with a custody agreement. I had told her that it's important for the kids to have both parents in their lives. I had also told her that the stability for the kids is also important so that they should stay in their family home as much as possible. I'm going to propose the reverse of the typical custody arrangement for her. Where I will keep the kids most of the time, but she can visit every other weekend. I know that won't go well though - it didn't the last time I brought it up.
She is really expecting 50/50. I suspect that the best I can hope for is to have the kids in the family home Mon-Thurs nite so that their school week is stable and stay with her Fri-Sun nite. So that would be 57/43. I negotiate multi-million $ business contracts in my job but no other negotiations have been so important with such high stakes.
Astimegoeson,
Wow, that was well put. There is so much out there that can be gathered watching others threads.
confusedinpa,
She may say she doesn't want to party but be prepared. She will experience a new found freedom and there will be a short duration of her going out with the free time without responsibilites. You will need to ignore it like others on this site advise. I'm not even the one that wanted my seperation and yet I enjoyed that intial burst of freedom. Just thought I'd share.
Your opportunity comes when you personally break out of that married identity you've been broadcasting to the world for so long. I can see it in your post. Your so predictable, it's boring. Don't take this personal, but consider you loose part of yourself when your married. It's that part she found attractive in the first place and that's the part she can 'miss' if she could see it again.
Does that make sense to you? It took me a while to rediscover it. The ex now missis it. She's the pursuer now, but it's to late for her in my case. Many on here can probably tell you the same thing. There are some who've successfully attracted their spouses/ex spouses back only to find that dbing was more beneficial to them personally than their marriage. I don't think the authors had that concept in mind from the beginning, but it's definitely a by-product. If you can understand this concept early on, you have a good chance at success.
[/quote]
I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out with you ex in you situation, but it sounded like you really made yourself fuller through the experience.
I do agree that I lost part of myself after we got married. During my DB process, as well as the fact that I got snapped out of my depression by her filing for divorce, I came to the realization that I became someone that no one would want to be with during the last several years. The irony was that at work, we used a consultant that I thought was great but everyone who worked with him hated, but since my awakening, I saw everything that my wife complained/resented about in the consultant. He is also divorced.
I know I've changed for the better. My wife told me how proud she was of me. My oldest son recognizes and tell me how he never wants me to go back to my "old ways". My buddy and his wife in CT who probably knows me better than anyone else (sad since that's suppose to be my wife that knows me best) says that they see how I've evolved into such a full person.
Problem is my wife is still unable to see past the hurt/anger that she's holding onto.
I'm disappointed/sad that it's gotten to this point. Not for myself but for my boys and my wife. It feels like we have taken it to this point in our lives where things are suppose to get easier. Unfortunately, we can't continue as a family past this point.
I hope the separation really can help
The toughest part of today for me is that my youngest turns 3 today. So this could be the last time we celebrate it as a family.
It's not fair! But I guess this will be his first experience of life being not fair.
Like Kayne West song says, whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger....
More to the confusion pool
This morning, she woke me up like normal. Big difference was that she stayed in the bathroom while I got ready. Last several days, she would leave the bathroom as soon as I got in.
We talked/chatted lightly (not about our relationship). I did not try to give her a hug and/or kiss like I normally do.
My wife came into our room with our youngest so I gave my youngest a big hug and kiss for his B'day. I finished getting ready.
I went downstairs and I was about to actually leave when I realized that I forgot my cell phone in our bedroom. I started to go upstairs as my wife started to move. I walked right by her and she said "I was just about to give you a hug".
I stopped and gave her a hug. I tried to breakaway but she kept hugging so I continued for a few more minutes. I then broke away and she kissed me on the check.
Go figure - oh well, whatever.
Then she bombarded me with a whole bunch of emails this morning - everything from how am I doing today, how difficult our youngest one was this morning, to a resturant we like has discount coupons, to what we're doing for dinner tonite, etc.
I replied to one of them after about 30 minutes (I was on a conference call). Minor chit chat stuff, I didn't answer her how am I doing today question (I almost wanted to reply how does she expect me to feel knowing that she will be moving out soon) but put at the closing "Our hug this morning was really nice though"
She responded right away, but didn't comment about my hug comment.
I kept waiting about 15-20 minutes to respond, but she kept responding right away.
Oh well, all I know is we are going to my 3 year old's favorite resturant for his B'day tonite. I'm going to pick up my 7 year old so we can pick a cake out for his little brother on the way home from school.
It will be a good day!
Is there any reason why you're still going to attend C? It continues to sound like she's doing it just for you.
This is why -
With an MLC person that's the hardest part because they don't see the problem as being themselves. But there are "ah ha" moments that hopefully you or the C can bring out of her.
Our marriage counselor is more of a mental health therapist. We're not really working on the relationship per se during the sessions. Seems like she's really trying to work with us to make sure we're both ok emotionally.
This past session she's been working on pointing out how communication was/is a big driver in developing a loving/happy relationship (under my steering of the discussion). We talked about the recent example of the CT trip "discussion".
I do see how my wife interpreted as not being involved in the decision process as she clearly was not. What my wife had assumed was that I decided it several days before. What I brought up was that it actually came up that afternoon I called her. I do see how I didn't communicate it very clearly that it was a sudden trip plan that just worked out.
Our counselor then challenged her why didn't she say anything until Sunday. My wife said she was in such a shock as I've never gone away with the boys by myself that she didn't know how to respond.
Our counselor gave us both suggestions/ideas on what to do differently next time.
Ironically, my wife and I had a discussion of how we thought the counselor was helping our relationship. We both agreed that she was helping us feel better about ourselves. I guess that's part of her approach was that to get both of feeling better about ourselves so we can bring something healthy to the relationship.
I did float out the idea of finding someone else as I had been looking for something more relationship focused. She said she would be open to trying someone/thing else if I wanted to. I did press about asking her if she wanted to go. She said that trying to save the marriage was not what she wanted as she didn't feel that way anymore so she wants a divorce. She knows that I want to save the marriage so she will go to support what I want.
I interpreted her as what I told her. I love her enough so that if she wants to leave, I will not stand in her way, even if it's not what I want. She respects my want to save the marriage, even if it's not what she wants. She won't stand in my way by not going. She does participate and engage during the sessions. So if all she wanted to do was go for me, I would expect her to say nothing or just throw jabs at me. She does talk about how she feels and what she is thinking when asked. She doesn't offer it freely, but I guess that's the difference between not standing in the way vs. helping.
I am thinking about broaching the topic of retrovaille as an alternate counseling. I thought about DB phone counseling as well but I'm torn. Anyone with an opinion/ideas?
Another question I have is after she moves out, does that mean going Dark/Last Resort the move to make on my part?
"I did float out the idea of finding someone else as I had been looking for something more relationship focused. She said she would be open to trying someone/thing else if I wanted to."
Obviously she's not into it or going to participate. Right now is not the right time for her so I wouldn't push it. She should actually go on her own for herself and not for the R. Right now your W is seeing everything in the R as negative, so anything associated with it (M included) is not for her. She's just going for you which is the wrong approach. She has to want to go.
MLC is like alcoholism. First they have to recognize that it is a MLC. Then they have to get help for themselves. We can try all we want, but it WILL NOT change their mind until they want to.
"I walked right by her and she said "I was just about to give you a hug".
Maybe you should have said, "okay if that's what you want". Then do it, but act indifferent either way. She's doing it to make herself feel better about putting you down.
"I replied to one of them after about 30 minutes (I was on a conference call). Minor chit chat stuff, I didn't answer her how am I doing today question (I almost wanted to reply how does she expect me to feel knowing that she will be moving out soon) but put at the closing "Our hug this morning was really nice though"
Start detaching yourself. You shouldn't have responded to everything. Maybe just one and mention that you were busy. Then end it. And you DEFINITELY shouldn't have said that about the hug. You're showing her your neediness. And also showing her that you'll be okay as long as you get your daily hug. Believe me buddy, you'll be lucky if you get a hug or anything else for that matter once SHE decides to stop it. Then you'll be disappointed again, feel sad, regretful, etc. You've got to be the first to detach yourself from that now. You're setting yourself up for a big fall.
DB counseling is fine. And you can try Retrouavaille. I've heard that miracles do happen there, but every case is different. I think it helps more if your W has a strong faith in God as it is faith based.
IF she moves out, then you cut her out. don't call, don't pursue, don't leave TMs, nothing. Talk only if it concerns the kids. If she calls, keep all conversations short and always end it first. The thing is you want her to wonder about you and show her that she is not the key to your happiness.
Again, with a MLC person, that's all you can do. You stick to the changed person that you are and live as such. She's going to have to find her own path.
The problem is that if you continue to "help" her along the way by letting her hug you, be overly friendly, you apologizing for every time that she feels angry (even when you are not at fault), she's going to keep being nice to you until she's out the door. Then once she's out, she's going to shut the door and be the one who doesn't initiate anything friendly and you're going to be left wondering WTH happened?
Look over your posts again. Her interactions to you have been like a mom to her child. She punishes you for your "bad" behavior, and rewards you for good behavior, but only when she feels like it.
Stay compassionate, yet firmly rooted in your beliefs and do what is right for you and your kids. Not her.
Not trying to be lazy here, but no point in being redundant...I agree with everything stuck just said. ^
I'm really torn on the counseling thing though. If she was really just going for me, wouldn't she just act like a bump on the log and not say anything or just through jabs constantly. She does participate in the introspective, so I think. I have my appoint with my therapist tomorrow (who is also my counselor) so perhaps I should talk to her and get her opinion.
I see your point about the hug. I wasn't going to say anything but put that in there to put something positive out there - I hadn't thought that she was just doing it to make herself feel better. It's a tough call as in the past, I never would give her a hug (at least a long one, nor with any emotion). If I don't give it to her, can't it be interpurted as I'm hurt and pouting?
That is an interesting point about mom to her child. It is a real reversal as in the past she had said I treated her more like a child than a wife. I'm going to have to think about that one.
Also, I only responded to one of her emails. I didn't respond to all of them. In fact she sent me two more after my last email, just misc stuff, that I didn't think needed response. I always try to end the day with her sending the last email. I rarely send the first text or email (only if it is something related to the kid's schedule)
Tonite is my 3 year old's b'day so I'm not going to bring up any relationship discussion so I don't ruin the day.
I want to ask her to consider waiting till after a B'day party for the 2 boys (every year we throw them a combined B'day party as their B'days are only 2 weeks apart) before moving out. I'm trying to figure out how to bring it up. I think I'm going to use the technique the counselor suggested.
I was thinking something along the following:
"My thought is out of fairness and consideration for our kids, can you wait till after their B'day party before moving out? It is suppose to be their day and I don't think it would be very respectful if they were not the focus of the party."
Any thoughts? I'm trying to get her to be part of the "decision" making process.
Well, I'm heading home to pick up my oldest so we can pick out a B'day cake for my youngest.
I know I need to stay positive and upbeat for my son's B'day. It is his day.
I do need some encouragement/advice. This may be the last couple of weeks I will have my wife in the house, ever.....
In terms of the C, you have to ask yourself. Has any of it done any good in terms of having her work on your M? So far the answer's been no. She contributes when she needs to, but hasn't really thought of the M in terms of herself. It's up to you to continue, but I wouldn't. She should see her own C.
"I see your point about the hug. I wasn't going to say anything but put that in there to put something positive out there"
Just shows your neediness.
"I'm trying to get her to be part of the "decision" making process."
Tread lightly here. There is no decision making process. She made the decision and is waiting for you to agree to what she wants. The thing is you have to try and change her attitude to see that what she wants is the M.
Write down what you want in terms of the separation and go from there. You say you're a negotiator, well think of her as someone doing a hostile takeover. Do what's right for you and your kids. Take your focus off her and her needs.
confusedinpa,
Thanks for checking in on me, Happy B-Day to the little man!
Today is a big gift to you as well, celebrate it to the fullest, forget the wife today, it's all about the little man.
More to the confusion pool
I had a lot of these mixed signals in the beginning. I truly believe in most cases that the WAS does not want to intentionally hurt the LBS. Especially when you have a history with kids involved. I think a lot of the unexpected hugs, favors, and good gestures from my ex were more of an apology for what she was doing to me. In most cases, it was behind my back at the time. It was compassion mixed with a little guilt. Very confusing for me at the time.
I think this back and forth/cold and hot is pretty typical. The thing most will tell you is not to read to much into it one way or the other. Don't pin your hopes on it, but don't let it discourage you when she goes cold in the other direction.
It was a good 3rd B'day at Applebee's. He was thrilled when they sang to him. We went home and he loved his presents. I enjoyed his moment almost as much as he did!
I did try to talk to my wife about their B'day party. I asked her to consider waiting to move out until after their Bday party so their day will be about them not talking about our situation. She had the audacity of suggesting of having it in the community center of her apartment complex. I said no way. This could be their last Bday party in the family home. We need to make it about them. She said what difference would it make.
I lost it at that point and said that our kids need to be the top priority and she's not acting that way. The fact that she wants a separation and divorce shows that. It is not in the best interest of the kids to only have 1 parent around. That I why a divorce is no the answer
That's when she said she agreed its not a good answer. It just that she feels we were not meant to be together since we weren't able to maintain/develop the connection shortly after we were married. Then she went into her pity party line of being hurt/neglected/ignored. I said that was then, this is now and I believe these changes are real. Everyone has seen them and believe. My co-workers, kids, therapist, friends and even my buddy up in CT. I know I am making a better, fuller life by making these changes permanent. Only time can prove it.
She tried to take a jab at me saying I so much, like she wasn't doing anything. I said I use I as I am the only person I can control and speak for. She is in control of her decisions and right now her decision is putting what she wants above what's best for the kids
I then said I am very comfortable with what she wants as I know I will be happy and will be loved by the kids. The kids are innocent victims here so I need to put their priorities first. That's why I am fighting for the marriage. For them and for us. I told her I do love her and want her to be part of my life. But I know even without her I will be happy.
She said I was starting to be a sound like a preacher. I said that's because both a preacher and I are passionate about what we believe in. And I believe that what's best for the kids must be a priority and I believe our relationship can work
This is entirely her decision on whether either will happen
Then she said that I was starting to get mean and nasty. I told her we would be kidding ourselves if we thought a divorce would be nice and easy. How it affects each of us and our kids will be nasty. The children of divorce has a divorce rate of over 79% (87% if both are children of divorce). That means most likely one if not both of our kids will wind up going through a divorce
I said I still believe in our marriage and believe it can work. But we would need help as we both never seen what a happy loving marriage looks like as we were both children of divorce. I know I will work on it. Its her decision whether she will work on it. If she doesn't, it won't work and that's on her
Then, big surprise, she said it was late (10PM) so she was going to bed
I said good nite and walked away from her (no hug or kiss)
Not sure if what I said/did tonite helps or makes it worse but I firmly established kids as the priority
Sorry your night of celebration ended the way it did.
The odd thing about WASs is that oftentimes they choose special occasions or holidays to drop the bombs. My W and I separated on the day of our birthdays.
"It just that she feels we were not meant to be together since we weren't able to maintain/develop the connection shortly after we were married. "
YOu are right. that was the past. This is the present.
"She tried to take a jab at me saying I so much, like she wasn't doing anything."
It's true though. She hadn't done much to try and stay in the M. She was waiting for the feeling to come back while she had one foot out the door. All she had to do was say she wasn't going to leave, to herself and go with the flow. You can't say you're trying when you still say you're leaving. That's a half-ass way of trying.
"Then she said that I was starting to get mean and nasty. I told her we would be kidding ourselves if we thought a divorce would be nice and easy."
Well you had to let it out and I don't blame you.
We'll see how things turn out in the morning.
I agree w/ Stuck that you made an excellent point on the past vs. the present. The self-help guru Tony Robbins (got a D, one observes, so take w/ many many grains of salt!
) had a catch-phrase I heard him use once on an info-mercial, and it's always stuck (no pun intended) with me:
"The past doesn't equal the future."
I think that's pretty apropos for DB'ers generally. But WAS's go the other way.
"Then she said that I was starting to get mean and nasty. I told her we would be kidding ourselves if we thought a divorce would be nice and easy."
Well you had to let it out and I don't blame you.
We'll see how things turn out in the morning.
When she said I was starting to get mean and nasty, it wasn't about my tone. I wasn't yelling or screaming, I was actually crying. It is something I still haven't gotten a handle on. I don't cry when I talk about her and I and what is happening. I only cry when I think about my kids. It was a tough conversation for me as I used about 1/3 of a box of tissues in the hour we talked.
I'm pretty sure she was referring to that she felt the things I was saying was mean and nasty. That she wasn't putting the kids priority first.
Another thing that came up was that I had asked her mom if we can chat. We were going to try and have lunch during the week. I normally NEVER talk to her mom - she's too touchy feely and felt she was so nosy that I didn't want her to know my business. I was going to talk to her just to let her know my side of the story of saving the marriage, but wanted to make sure I could still call her if I needed any help with my kids.
She asked what I wanted to talk to her mom about. She threw it out there in the middle I think to try and derail me. I told her that it was to ask if she would be willing to help me if I needed any help with the boys. My wife said that I could always call her. I then told her I knew that but wanted to make sure I had a full support structure to make sure I would be able to take care of the boys and the home. That was when she dropped the why am I saying I so much.
Throughout the entire conversation she didn't say too much after we got off the B'day party discussion. When I started talking about how her decision to get divorce was not putting the kids as the first priority, she stopped talking. I would pause at times and ask her what she was thinking or feeling. She would just say she was just listening. Once she sad she was mad. Another time she said I was starting to get mean and nasty.
Another time after I had gotten up to get a new box of tissues, I stayed standing for a bit, and she asked me to sit down as she felt I was trying to over power her (sounded very text book, wonder where she read that one). I appologized and sat down, but didn't ease up.
The only other question of substance is she wanted to know what my buddy up in CT said when he commented about my changes. I told her he saw that I was much more relaxed, no longer on a hair trigger, more verbal/talkative and engaged. This is a guy that nows me better than anyone else as he grew up with very similar experiences as I did starting the second year in HS.
I told her that I know it was weird saying that as I know that my wife should be the person that knew me better than anyone. I told her that as part of my changes, I recognize how I was afraid and/or embarrased to share things about me. I see that now, which is why I've been sharing so much with her. I shouldn't be embarrases about my past. They made me who I am and I not only survived, I thrived.
The odd part of it was this morning started like any other morning. She woke me up. We both got ready in the bathroom. We talked and joked around about various things. If anyone saw us, they would have no idea we were in a midst of a divorce.
I was tempted to just give her the cold shoulder or ask her if she has given our conversation any more thought, but didn't want her to think I was going to "hammer her into submission".
I may bring it up the next time she brings up custody, which will be soon since we have a mediation hearing on Monday. She usually asks if I had given it any more thought. Perhaps I should reflect it back to her about if she has given what I said about the divorce any more thought. In hindsight, I should have ended the conversation last nite with the comment that I want her to think about it.
The only difference this morning than any other morning was the hug and kiss. I wanted to but trying to give her one wasn't an option. I gave my youngest an extra hug and kiss instead. It felt so much better than what I've been feeling with my wife.
CIPA,
I have read through a lot of your posts and also what other people have recommended to you. You and others are saying that you tried the kind and compassionate route, and it did not work with her. I doubt that you really tried and I want to tell you why...
Let me try to describe one more time what compassion means to me. Compassion to me means leaving behind your point of view when you approach her, trying to be completely open, to fully understand her point of view, to simply accept and respect that whatever she says is her point of view, her feelings, her thoughts and her opinions. It means trying to get, maybe even to feel what causes her pain, to connect with her before you start talking with her, to simply stop stating your own point of view.
If anything you write and how you write about your conversations with your W is any indication, you are still trying to convince her that your point of view is right. You excuse your own behavior with the depression that your C diagnosed and accuse her of having MLC and the typical WAW mindset. Even if this is correct, if it is on your mind when you approach her, you will invariably attack her and she will get defensive. There will be no compassion and it will increase her fear and her urge to just run away.
I get the sense that deep in her heart she does not want the divorce either, but she cannot bear the situation anymore like it is right now. She simply has to end it. She sees and notices your changes, but you are not yet where she would like to see you. Maybe she doubts that you will ever get there. It is more than a whatever attitude. As long as you avoid (which you probably did before the bomb) or attack her (which you are doing right now for not doing what you want her to do), she will not come back. If you want her to come back, you need to approach her patiently and openly, with an open mind and an open heart.
I know that this is extremely hard. You basically have to swallow your pride, ignore your own feelings of pain, anger and hurt, it takes a leap of faith, but in the end that is the only way to make it happen in a situation like yours. She does not have an A, which would require a completely different approach, so get over what she has done to you and try to be the best husband and father you can be. When you interact with her, make her, her wishes, her feelings, her thoughts a priority. When you do not interact with her, make yourself, your emotional and intellectual growth, your own feelings and thoughts a priority. You can do this.
AN
I get the sense that deep in her heart she does not want the divorce either, but she cannot bear the situation anymore like it is right now. She simply has to end it. She sees and notices your changes, but you are not yet where she would like to see you. Maybe she doubts that you will ever get there. It is more than a whatever attitude. As long as you avoid (which you probably did before the bomb) or attack her (which you are doing right now for not doing what you want her to do), she will not come back. If you want her to come back, you need to approach her patiently and openly, with an open mind and an open heart.
I know that this is extremely hard. You basically have to swallow your pride, ignore your own feelings of pain, anger and hurt, it takes a leap of faith, but in the end that is the only way to make it happen in a situation like yours. She does not have an A, which would require a completely different approach, so get over what she has done to you and try to be the best husband and father you can be. When you interact with her, make her, her wishes, her feelings, her thoughts a priority. When you do not interact with her, make yourself, your emotional and intellectual growth, your own feelings and thoughts a priority. You can do this.
AN
I hope you are right that she doesn't want a divorce deep in her heart. The reality is that is the decision that she made. I've recognized that I've caused her significant hurt. It is not something that I can take back. I don't feel that depression is an excuse either. I feel that it happened and I see the pain it caused, and that's what pushed her to make this decision. I've taken accountability for that - even last nite.
I am trying to change, not for her, but for me. I do recognize how I struggle with the compassion aspect.
Any suggestions on how I should have approached the B'day party conversation/dialog that would have more compassion?
Thanks for checking in.
Anybody have any comments/thoughts on compassion?
Read "Love Without Hurt" by Stosny - his website is
http://compassionpower.com/However, be prepared for some difficult truths, that book really threw me for a loop.
Read "Love Without Hurt" by Stosny - his website is
http://compassionpower.com/However, be prepared for some difficult truths, that book really threw me for a loop.
I'm actually half way through his book. I was looking for some specific examples of what compassion would have looked/sounded like in my conversation last nite
Any suggestions?
Thanks for checking in
In the case of how to show compassion from the conversation last night. The only thing I think you could have done is listened to her a little more. But you are only human and the feelings and frustrations have been building in you for awhile from your W's mixed signals. Every now and then those emotions come out and last night they did. What's done is done. Just when the opportunity presents itself, go back to listening a little more to her.
I disagree with AN when he says that you hadn't seen things through her eyes. Through all the weeks of therapy and talks and interactions, I say that you were more than understanding to where she's coming from. However, her problem is the past. And we can't change that. There's only so much validating you can do before it gets to the point where you find out that this person needs to stop blaming me for all of their problems and move on.
This is classic MLC script.
I always find it interesting how the next morning the two of you act as if there was nothing wrong. I would maybe ask her how she's doing and apologize for anything inappropriate you might have said last night. Then see if she does also. If she doesn't, then she'll have moved on in her head and might be thinking that it still is all your fault.
I disagree with AN when he says that you hadn't seen things through her eyes. Through all the weeks of therapy and talks and interactions, I say that you were more than understanding to where she's coming from.
Stuck,
I believe that CIPA has been trying to understand her a little better than before. What I read in his posts over and over again though is that he always has his own agenda and puts that first when he talks to her. So when she says she cannot get over the past, he ends up arguing with her how bad a D would be for the kids.
I want to give you another example (and I apologize in advance for being very blunt, but I really have no idea how I can be less drastic to get through to CIPA). I have read a few posts of CIPA on other people's threads. They usually start with a sentence like "I understand your situation...", and then he rattles on with his own situation. If he does the same thing to his W, of course, she does not feel understood and respected.
The only way to make her feel safe, to take away her fear is to approach her without an agenda, like a true friend who listens, validates her feelings and offers help. How about something like "I understand you feel hurt about what I have done. I wish I would not have done all these things. How can I help you feel more comfortable?" And then do whatever she is asking for. You can even hug her lightly or hold her hand, once you have truly connected with each other. But something like "I understand you are hurt. But the victims of a D will be the kids." for sure turns her off. I am exaggerating, but that is how I sense those conversations are going.
As long as CIPA has those thoughts like "I do not want a divorce. She destroys our family. I love her, so why can't she get over the past hurt?", he will always be in attack mode when he talks to her. When he is in attack mode, showing compassion is impossible.
However, her problem is the past. And we can't change that.
I am not really sure her problem is the past. Her problem is that she does not see a future with CIPA, because he keeps hurting her, he keeps scratching those old wounds so they start bleeding again and cannot heal. When they talk, CIPA's motivation is not to understand her point of view fully and accept it as her point of view, but to convince her to stay, to stop the D, to stay with the family. I hear that over and over again in his posts, and I just cannot imagine that he turns around 180 degrees when he talks to his W. And I am convinced that his W can sense his motivation better than anything else (an animal can sense your motivation when you walk towards it). Whenever she senses his motivation is own agenda, her defenses are up and she tells the story about the past.
I do not want to turn this into an argument. That is just what I am reading in his posts.
AN
I guess the problem is that she wouldn't say anything other than the 2 to 4 word questions/statements. That was only after I would would ask what she was thinking or feeling
I will try the appology though.
AN,
No problems here. To me it just seemed that his saying that he doesn't want the D, etc. is his belief which he doesn't tell or tries not to show outwardly, but lets it out here because this is like our sanctuary.
Sure we all make mistakes in the beginning like arguing, trying to reason with spouse, etc. and he like everyone else here has done his fair share. But I think in the past month especially, there was a real turnaround. The switch finally came on as it does with all of us.
I'm glad to hear that your sitch is turning out great, but let's be honest, it's because your W WANTED to work on it after all. That's the key. My W has said from day one that she wants out and still maintains that even though all her actions would suggest otherwise. And I've been at this for over a year. She says she doesn't want to try. Your W was willing to give it a shot, no matter how small an effort it was, it was still an effort.
Most of the other WAWs on this board really don't want to try and will come up with every excuse in the book to fight trying. Some people even had their LBS arrested! That's crazy.
You my friend are extremely blessed and the majority of us here would give anything to be in your shoes. And it all started because your W made the choice to try.
Stuck,
I agree with you that some WAW will never look back. You can probably DB until your head starts spinning and it will not save your M.
OTOH, I think Mrs. CIPA is different. A lot of the things she said at the beginning led me to believe that she was and probably still is on the fence. If I look back to how I made progress:
- I completely stopped talking about my plans, my needs, and my wishes
- I made every conversation I had with her 100% about her
- I stated once, maybe twice that I wanted to save the M
- I stated my boundaries once (maybe twice)
- I admit to a little bit of snooping - it was almost accidentally - when I found she was reading books about "Emotional abuse". I started reading about it, too, and brought it up myself to her and that I wanted to work on it. I actually asked her to get me books from the library (except for the DB book).
- Of course, Retro had a huge impact on me and how I treated her. It was a real eye-opener for me. I am still not sure if it turned her around. Or rather I believe she had a lot of doubts before Retro that walking away was the right solution for her. If she had been one of those never-look-back-WAW, she probably would not have gone.
Every time I exerted only a little bit of pressure (and I still have to be extremely careful even now), we had a setback. Every time I started arguing or lecturing, became defensive, talked about my feelings, my needs, my point of view, we had a setback. It only took very little to turn her off. Only after I started doing the exercises described in "Love without Hurt", it became more automatic for me to be compassionate. I think at this point it would be very difficult for my W to bait me into an argument. When she tries (and she probably does that unconsciously), I immediately try to connect with her by putting my arm around her shoulder, holding her hand or simply asking her what I can do for her (e.g. "Wait! Would you like a coffee? Let's sit down"). We have been argument-free for close to 3 weeks now.
Since I know how hard it is from my own experience, I believe that CIPA is simply not there yet. I agree that he has come a long way from the anxiety and needyness he showed at the very beginning. However, he needs to keep working on that. I still sense a lot of anxiety about her moving out. Anxiety clouds your mind and view when you try to understand what your S says, feels and wants.
Again, I am not saying CIPA has not made improvements, but he has not really made progress. So something about his strategy needs to change.
AN
yeah we all thought that she was on the fence until she would hit with something out of left field that showed that she was still proceeding with the D without telling CIPA the full extent of her plans.
I agree that taking the focus off the R and onto her needs has helped CIPA, however she keeps bringing up the past which he has validated and apologized for over and over. She has even mentioned that she has seen the changes but doesn't trust them. CIPA has already past the point of telling her his changes and just doing them. She has to get over that part of the trust.
However if there's one thing about a person deep in MLC is that they are strictly thinking about themselves and no amount of talking to them or understanding will get them to change their mind unless they want to. That's why in your case, you were blessed to have a W that opened the door a little. But sometimes that's all it takes.
I have done all the things you have as well as others and that hasn't changed my W's mind at all. But we accept the reality of the sitch and move on.
I do believe there's hope in CIPA's sitch too. It's just going to take a little more tweaking of his approach to match his sitch so that it is all about her.
Wow, stuck and An!
You both are like jedi masters!
Keep checking in on my sitch if you can.
I guess the problem is that she wouldn't say anything other than the 2 to 4 word questions/statements. That was only after I would would ask what she was thinking or feeling
I will try the appology though.
yeah we all thought that she was on the fence until she would hit with something out of left field that showed that she was still proceeding with the D without telling CIPA the full extent of her plans.
Do you mean the fact that she was looking for an apartment and is now moving out?
I agree that taking the focus off the R and onto her needs has helped CIPA, however she keeps bringing up the past which he has validated and apologized for over and over.
This is where I think he could still improve a lot. It is, of course, based on what I read here. In his posts, there is still a lot of focus on her, what she does, what she thinks, what she feels. Too much R talk between the two of them still. There is still more attachment than detachment.
CIPA,
has she been contacting you today?
Guys I appreciate all the support and really appreciate the optimism. From your lips to God's ears that there is really a chance
I was really sick this afternoon so I came home from work (chills, fever, stomach, etc). When my wife got home she said I should have called her. She did ask if there was something in particular I wanted for dinner (I didn't eat all day). I asked for jelly toast. She gave me a couple of advils. She didn't try to comfort me with any touch though. It made me a little sad
I did thank her for the toast and advil. We talked lightly for a minute or so but I saw she was trying to avoid eye contact. I suspect she signed the lease today. I'm not going to ask. It doesn't make a difference in my mind
I laid in the family room after dinner under a pile of blankets. After about an hour she suggested I go upstairs to bed
Before I went up, I thanked her again and appologized if she felt anything I said last nite was inappropriate. She said what? I repeated it. She didn't say anything and I went upstairs
My therapist feels that my wife is now emotionally shut down. Almost depressed like I was. She was surprised how little concern my wife is showing about the kids and to me. She noticed that my wife doesn't show any compassion or any emotion when I get upset about the impact to the kids
I noticed that tonite. I am scared for her. That is no way to live life. I just don't know how to help her.
My thrapist feels I have been extremely compasionate to my wife but I don't think she is really familiar with the Love without hurt concepts. I'm only up to page 140. Hope I can finish it when there is still time/hope
Thanks for all the support and insight
CIPA,
has she been contacting you today?
No she hadn't. It's now a tell usually she has something to hit me with when she doesn't. Fortunately I was sick so she didn't drop any bombs. Guess she is saving it for tomorrow
I want to give you another example (and I apologize in advance for being very blunt, but I really have no idea how I can be less drastic to get through to CIPA). I have read a few posts of CIPA on other people's threads. They usually start with a sentence like "I understand your situation...", and then he rattles on with his own situation. If he does the same thing to his W, of course, she does not feel understood and respected.
The only way to make her feel safe, to take away her fear is to approach her without an agenda, like a true friend who listens, validates her feelings and offers help. How about something like "I understand you feel hurt about what I have done. I wish I would not have done all these things. How can I help you feel more comfortable?" And then do whatever she is asking for. You can even hug her lightly or hold her hand, once you have truly connected with each other. But something like "I understand you are hurt. But the victims of a D will be the kids." for sure turns her off. I am exaggerating, but that is how I sense those conversations are going.
As long as CIPA has those thoughts like "I do not want a divorce. She destroys our family. I love her, so why can't she get over the past hurt?", he will always be in attack mode when he talks to her. When he is in attack mode, showing compassion is impossible.
However, her problem is the past. And we can't change that.
I am not really sure her problem is the past. Her problem is that she does not see a future with CIPA, because he keeps hurting her, he keeps scratching those old wounds so they start bleeding again and cannot heal. When they talk, CIPA's motivation is not to understand her point of view fully and accept it as her point of view, but to convince her to stay, to stop the D, to stay with the family. I hear that over and over again in his posts, and I just cannot imagine that he turns around 180 degrees when he talks to his W. And I am convinced that his W can sense his motivation better than anything else (an animal can sense your motivation when you walk towards it). Whenever she senses his motivation is own agenda, her defenses are up and she tells the story about the past.
AN
I appreciate all the advice. I will try some of your suggestions
Any thoughts on how to show compassion when she talks about moving out over the next 3 weeks?
"I noticed that tonite. I am scared for her. That is no way to live life. I just don't know how to help her."
That's the thing. You CAN'T help her. She's got to be the one to help herself. AN is right in that you've got to stop being the problem solver and drop the rope. Remember the stray dog analogy. You push to much and she takes off.
Right now she's shut down because she doesn't understand what the heck is going on with her. She doesn't think she has the problem and is trying to do everything herself without really understanding what's going on. Typical MLC stuff.
You can show her compassion by understanding her confusion. She doesn't know why she feels trapped, she just knows she has to leave. She has to get to the point where she understands why she feels trapped in the first place. Only then can she truly feel "free".
If she chooses to leave, you can't stop her and it would go against everything you told her about wanting to be happy. So let her go and talk to her if she talks first. Don't bring anything about the kids or your feelings up to her. She can't be guilted into coming back. She has to learn through experience.
Pick up clues from what she tells you and write them down as you have been. Try understanding her more from the little tidbits she tells you.
Right now she's shut down because she doesn't understand what the heck is going on with her. She doesn't think she has the problem and is trying to do everything herself without really understanding what's going on. Typical MLC stuff.
Stuck, you are right about this. She gets pulled in every direction. For what we know, she might even try to heal the past hurt and pain, but with everything going on around her, the constant R conversations, the changes she sees, but also the old habits she may still recognize, she just does not know what to do. She has mixed feelings, and even in her mind she might not be 100% clear on where to go. She simply needs time and space to figure this out on her own. Intuitively she is doing the right thing by moving out and creating that needed space for herself.
You can show her compassion by understanding her confusion. She doesn't know why she feels trapped, she just knows she has to leave. She has to get to the point where she understands why she feels trapped in the first place. Only then can she truly feel "free".
If she chooses to leave, you can't stop her and it would go against everything you told her about wanting to be happy. So let her go and talk to her if she talks first. Don't bring anything about the kids or your feelings up to her. She can't be guilted into coming back. She has to learn through experience.
Again, full ack. CIPA, you can show compassion by understanding and accepting what she is going through. Stop fighting her moving out. Stop communicating any of your own points. Show her that you understand that the separation might help her, maybe both of you to figure what you want and need and what is best for both of you. When she tells you that she is moving out on day X, do not give her a speech how bad this is for the kids and that you do not give up on your marriage, just tell her "I understand you need a break from all this. We both need a break. Let me know what I can do for you." Make everything you say to her about her and nothing about you.
AN
My 7 year old and I are home sick. She did ask me if I needed any drink or medicine this morning before she got ready. She seemed to have softened somewhat from last nite when she wouldn't even look at me. She wound up calling at lunch to see if we needed anything (porabably more for our son than me)
She dropped some soup off for us and went right back for work.
I'm ok with her leaving but she wants to take the kids. I'm not ok with that. How do I show compassion in that case?
She wound up calling at lunch to see if we needed anything (porabably more for our son than me)
This is an example where positive self-talk would help you get a more heart and mind towards her. Maybe she did do it also for you. Just something to think about...
I'm ok with her leaving but she wants to take the kids. I'm not ok with that. How do I show compassion in that case?
I think here you have to show compassion for your kids. Given the circumstances and her decision to leave, what is best for them, not her? Also, there is going to be a custody agreement soon. You need to hold her to that. I would definitely insist on a close to 50/50 agreement.
When you say that she's taking the kids, what agreement did she want? The 50/50 would be best like AN says. Can you have the kids half the week at your place and the other half at hers?
I'm still struggling with my stomach bug
She tried to call a few times but I missed the call. I did call her back and she had asked if there was anything I needed. When she got home she asked if there was anything in particular that I wanted for dinner
After dinner, my stomach bug was in full attack so I spent most of the time in the bathroom or laying down in the family room
When the kids started to watch their show she was in the den. I went in and massaged her shoulder lightly and thanked her for trying to make me feel better. I then said I know how hurt she must have felt and I wish that I didn't make her feel that way. I asked her how she was feeling now.
She said trapped was a good way to describe it. She wanted to leave back in Jan but stayed because she didn't think I wanted to work on the marriage. She realizes now how being confronted with the person who hurt her so bad everyday is not helping the situation. She thinks that by getting away, she may realize what all she is giving up. She did start crying. I asked her if it would be ok to hug her. She said yes
Then she brought up the kid's Bday party. She wants to have it in May and but wants to move out in April. Then she started pressing about custody again
Fortunately our youngest interupted the conversation so it ended there
We put the kids to bed and went to bed since I wasn't feeling well. She came in to appologize for talking so much when I was sick. I told her that was ok and thanked her again for helping when I was sick
So the journey continues
So I guess this brings me back to my earlier question, how do I DB when she moves out?
Or is that the time to go dark?
When the kids started to watch their show she was in the den. I went in and massaged her shoulder lightly and thanked her for trying to make me feel better.
CIPA, just in case you do not realize it, this is pursuing. This is neither DBing nor compassion. You are following your own agenda here. You think by being nice to her you might be able to make her change her mind last minute. Stop that! Do not be nice! Be compassionate! Being compassionate means you have to figure out what she wants, what motivates her when she approaches you. Do not approach her to figure it out!
I then said I know how hurt she must have felt and I wish that I didn't make her feel that way. I asked her how she was feeling now.
Again, you are pursuing. You are starting R talk. Stop it!
She realizes now how being confronted with the person who hurt her so bad everyday is not helping the situation.
Do you get the message? She does recognize some behavioral changes in you, but she does not recognize the new you yet. She still sees the old you. I see a lot of the old you as well. You said you have read half way through "Love without Hurt". Are you in touch with your core values when you approach her? Or do you still feel some anger, because you are upset about her moving out? Or maybe you are angry at yourself for failing to make her stay? Try to listen to your feelings, try to figure out your motivation that is behind your behavior.
She thinks that by getting away, she may realize what all she is giving up. She did start crying.
That is why I still think she is on the fence, no matter what she does or say.
I asked her if it would be ok to hug her. She said yes
The way you did it, it is pursuing. Do not ask, just hug her and say "I understand." Period.
She came in to appologize for talking so much when I was sick. I told her that was ok and thanked her again for helping when I was sick
After all the criticism, I have to commend you for this. You know how to do it. Just try to be more consistent. Do not start any R talk. That includes anything about the custody issue. Let her start it, and then be as compassionate as you can dropping your own objectives and focusing on what she says.
So I guess this brings me back to my earlier question, how do I DB when she moves out?
Or is that the time to go dark?
I hope that answers your questions. You DB by letting her contact you (unless it is something you need to talk to her about the kids, but refrain from any R talk in those situations, unless she starts it). I would not call it dark, maybe dim. You need to stop any kind of pursuing 100%, but I would still respond to her attempts to make contact.
AN
I know it's the right thing to just "man up" and let her go. It is hard for me to fully accept as I don't believe that she is even considering the possibility of coming back. I know I'm not a mind reader nor should I be trying to guess what she is thinking.
She did tell me last nite that she had talked to my mom last weekend when I was in CT with the boys. Apparently my mom has been calling her everytday to give me another chance. Not sure if that is really helping or not.
Guess the bottom line I need to realize what's been pointed out to me, she doesn't see a life with me. I need to give her a reason to want to see a life with me. I've been making my changes. I guess I don't see how her not beeing around will make it possible for her to find a reason to see a life with me. So confusing.
When she brought up moving out on Monday, I asked did she think she would ever come back. She just answered - I want a divorce, what do you think. She gave no indication/sign of even considering the coming back. Last nite, she said, perhaps just to make me feel better, who knows, that she thinks being away from having the "negativity" right in front of her all the time may make her realize all that she is giving up. When I asked what "negativity" she said it was me.
I guess this could be the final stretch to make sure I show her my best 180. It is a little tough while I'm battling a stomach bug.
A positive is that she does say she wants to have a 50/50 custody agreement. Her original proposal was to have the kids move back and forth every 2 days. When I said that didn't offer much stability for the kids, she then said every 3 days. I'm going to suggest she can have them Mon night through Thurs night and I'll take then Fri night through Sun night. My thought process to that would be that since she's in an apartment and I'm in the house with the yard and all the toys, it makes more sense to have the kids in the house on the weekends. She'll have them for 1 more day/week than I will, but I'll ask for extra days throughout the year to get to 50/50
We'll see how that goes.