Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: lostlove what G.A.L really means - 02/22/08 07:09 PM
My story is not new nor is it really all that different from everyone else's. Some remember me some don't. I'm not going to rehash my story other than to say I had a wah with OW over 5 years ago, seperation, H was sure he wanted D, he came home and it's been a rocky road ever since. I've tried the G.A.L in lot's of ways but I realize now what G.A.L truly means and I think many could benefit from some things.

When telling people on this site to GAL things like join a club or group, volunteer, find a hobby or get back to a hobby are often brought up but I don't really think that's what is intended by GAL.

GAL to me has been many things over the past 5+ years...I've done the volunteering, starting clubs/groups, hobbies, making new friends, getting out, keeping busy with the kids etc but nothing seemed to change the way I felt about my life in terms of the family or the marriage. Don't get me wrong I love my kids, love being a mom and actually do enjoy being a homemaker. What's been missing is a true relationship with my h. GAL is not going to help that when going about it this way. GAL will work if you picture what you want YOUR life to be with or without your spouse or any patner and go for it. If you'd like to be in a different career than start working toward it, different cirlce of friends then start working toward it. The key is it has to be real, what you want, what you've always wanted. If you are doing that and your potentially wayward spouse or wayward spouse see's that drive and new life in you and decides to participate in it with you then great...if not well you are on your way to where you want to be anyway with or without them.

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For those that do remember me (and I thank you for popping in when I do post) Things haven't changed much...I'm still afraid to upset the apple cart full of apples that aren't good enough to make a christmas pie. Constantly questioning if it is as bad as I fell it is or if I just can't get the mud colored glasses off. From my words above you may be able to figure out that I'm begining to take steps toward where I want to be in my life. I've realized that the kinds of things I've been doing to gal have been wonderful and helped me along the way but now I find myself in a holding pattern with h. If I can't motivate him to better our r (or recreate one is more like it at this point)I'll have to motivate myself, decide who I want to be and go for it. Enough letting this m drag me down. I'm going to start living the rest of my life now. I still hold hope that h will wake up some day and realize what is happening to our r but if history and the present are any indicator that's not going to happen. I know I'll eventually have to decide what to do. Can I really live the rest of my life without feeling loved, connected, appreciated, wanted by my husband? I don't think so but I'm still not ready to jump ship.

I'm not out trolling the board to stir things up...sometimes I just think people need to hear a truth, a realization etc. I may post this in "I'm thinking about leaving" as well...I think they could use a bit of "I'm not leaving until I'm sure I've done all I can and even then I'm going to make sure I've really really done all I can and don't just think I have"

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Any thoughts, questions or comments are welcome. I'll appologize ahead of time and let you know I can't read all your threads, it just pulls me further into the abyss.

LL
starting to grow legs but not to become a waw if I do walk it will be not be in a way that can be lumped into a label like that
Posted By: oldtimer Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/22/08 08:24 PM
Movement!!!! \:D
Posted By: appleroad Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/23/08 04:44 PM
[quote=lostlove]

but I realize now what G.A.L truly means

What's been missing is a true relationship with my h.

Things haven't changed much...I'm still afraid to upset the apple cart full of apples that aren't good enough to make a christmas pie. Constantly questioning if it is as bad as I fell it is or if I just can't get the mud colored glasses off.


now I find myself in a holding pattern with h.

Can I really live the rest of my life without feeling loved, connected, appreciated, wanted by my husband? I don't think so but I'm still not ready to jump ship.


Any thoughts, questions or comments are welcome.

I can't read all your threads, it just pulls me further into the abyss.

/quote]

lostlove, I went to your other thread to take a look at your situation. I feel that if you are posting here you are as interested in piecing as the rest of us -- in spite of your discontent and your discouragement, there's still a flicker of hope.

So here's what I think: it seems to me that you and H are both doing the right thing by your children. Both of you are sacrificing for your children, to give them a home and to raise them as well as possible. I think that was a factor in H returning to the marriage -- he manned-up, and more power to him for doing that. A lot don't.

But it seems like the damage to the relationship was never addressed. It seems like H made his peace in his own way. He is likely just marking time now -- and maybe he sees you as doing the same thing (a projection on his part, he doesn't realize you are GALing and DBing)

So you've been GALing & DBing for 5 years now. It looks like divorce is not on the agenda -- but is this a case of successful DBing or is it a case of H manning-up to his responsibility to his children? In other words, will he stay no matter what you do or don't do? If this is the case, then likely you can afford to take a few more chances with the relationship. Knowing that H will still hang in there for the sake of the kids -- and that is likely your priority concern also, right? -- gives you a bit more leeway in things you might consider doing to improve the marriage relationship, to use your energy for something other than walking on eggs and developing an exit plan. In the beginning, you and H chose one another for good and valid reasons, you had many years of loving relationship. And it looks like he'll be hanging around long enough for the two of you to find your way back to that. That's what I would put my energy into. Whatever the two of you have been doing for the past few years isn't working -- so do something different. To me, that is the one of the most valuable pieces of advice Michele gives -- if what you're doing isn't working stop doing it, do something different.
Posted By: lostlove Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/23/08 07:08 PM
OK apppleroad, I'll bite. What "something" different would you suggest.

My plan now is to worry about me and my kids. I've wanted to go back to school for my masters for over 9 years now. H has never seemed very interested in that for me. The way he portrays himself when I mention any such thing (me working, going back to school, working toward a career etc) seem to be more about the money that will come in (we are not in debt, living very comfortably with his income...I've allowed myself to be put in a position where a regular job isn't possible while the kids are young due to his schedule) and less about the personal growth I see in it. Yes, money is always important but I don't think it should be the ultimate goal.

As far as h "manning up" in part that feels like the truth but wouldn't it be more manly for him to at least attempt to give the children an example of a loving relationship, patnership, companionship, friendship etc. My children have a mom and dad who both live in the home but do they have a family? Will they grow up and create the same empty marraige we have?

I don't see it as h really manned up...I see it as he dropped his drawers and sat down but nothing's comming out but gas. Muddy glasses? Somehow I don't think so...I've been keeping a brief log or journal of his actions, interactions with us (the kids, dog and I) and what I'm seeing is a lot of gas.

No, Divorce is not what I want...if it were I'd have done it years ago but sometimes I do wonder if the kids would be better off that way. H was more of a dad during our seperation than he has been since at least then he spent time with them on a regular basis not just when it suited him.


"In the beginning, you and H chose one another for good and valid reasons, you had many years of loving relationship."

what if we didn't choose one another for good valid reasons? what if we were kids when we met ( 16 and 19 though we didn't marry until 9 years later)and just didn't know how to stay broken up for the good and valid reasons we had broken up?

LL
Posted By: appleroad Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/23/08 07:29 PM
Ouch!
Posted By: lostlove Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/23/08 10:41 PM
Originally Posted By: appleroad
Ouch!


I didn't mean I'd bite YOU...I just meant I read and wanted to repsond. I do want to know what you would suggest as "something different" or if you meant it as a general statement.

so what caused the "ouch"... are you saying "ouch", should I be saying "ouch" or are you saying "ouch" for my h?

LL
Posted By: lostlove Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/23/08 11:43 PM
Hey Oldtimer,

yes, movement. Just for s's and giggles I went back and looked at my last thread here "UGH" and something you said is true...I am still in the same position I was this time last year.

The new response from h when I try to address the status of our r to be added to

"well that sucks"
"if you don't like it you leave"
"that's just the way it is"
"no matter what I do you wont be happy"

is

"if you don't like it go see a lawyer then the for sale sign goes up and we disrupt the kids live"....weird considering the fact that 6 years ago when the kids were babies in diapers and he was the one leaving I was going to stay in the house.

and his most recent

"maybe one day I'll wake up and decide it isn't worth it" (staying in the m that is) this of course was followed up with "then the for sale sign will go up and we'll disrupt the kids lives"

So here are my plans....I already have a BS in human services, my original live plan was to become a counselor or therapist but I put that off to gain life experience. I'm ready to go back to school and earn my masters, do whatever internships and put in whatever hours in the positions I have to to get to where I want to be. I'm giving myself 15 years to reach the ultimate goal taking the steps along the way. I have an appointment with my c in a couple of weeks hoping he can help me figure out where exactly to begin since it is the field he's working in.

That's the big thing.

Small things...been trying to loose weight. When h left I had just had dd..due to the anxiety of it all I lost all the baby weight and then some (it was wonderful but people were constantly trying to feed me) I've put alot of the weight back on (not fat by any means but would be absolutely fabulous if I lost 20 and toned up) so I've been loosing slowly and am ready to get on the treadmill and start working for it. When the warm weather gets here again I'll get back to rollerblading (it's like flying I love it!) Trying to keep the house in order and the kids taken care of...both are in school a full day now.

I've been keeping a log of when h leaves and returns from work, any phone calls from him during the day and watching his bottle of jim bean.

I figure if I do all this by the end of this year I'll know what to do with my m or at least I'll be in a better position to ask for what I want and if I don't get it I'll have grown some legs to walk with.

LL
Posted By: whitelight Re: what G.A.L really means - 02/26/08 06:43 PM
I love your goals!

Getting in even better shape and by means which you love-rollerblading.

Go back to school.

Fabulous. You move forward in your life. That's great! I see this as positive in so many ways. Good luck!

I love hearing your excitement!
Posted By: lostlove Re: what G.A.L really means - 03/01/08 11:06 PM
So, just got back from a nice weeks vacation with the kids and h. More of a vacation of me with the kids than of him with us but honestly it's better that way. Some childish behaviour from him over the week but I wont bore you with the details...it's how he deals with the kids.

I should add here something I haven't stated yet...any who've followed my threads will know that h's lack of interest in sex has been an issue for a while and well I don't initiate anymore due to the humiliation of being turned down so often...well it's been over 5 months now since any sexual intereaction and that last time I think was more of an obligation on his part as we were away celebrating our anniversary.

I meet with my c on Monday. I'm going to go there with goals and note cards so I can make the most of the hour and not sit there just bringing him up to date with story after story.

Somethings going to have to change soon and I'm afraid it's going to have to be me putting my foot down and explaining clearly what I want out of this m and what I will not tolerate. Some kind of agreement will have to be made. Hopefully the c can help me find the best way to approach this with h.

LL
Posted By: oldtimer Re: what G.A.L really means - 03/03/08 03:28 PM
"Somethings going to have to change soon and I'm afraid it's going to have to be me putting my foot down and explaining clearly what I want out of this m and what I will not tolerate. "

Sounds good ó about time you set some boundaries.

BTW, have you read PM (Passionate Marriage)?
Posted By: lostlove found something - 03/06/08 01:45 PM
I know DB tells us not to snoop but let's face it sometimes it is warrented and even a smart thing to do. You can't always go on acting as if unless that is your acting as if everything really is screwed up.

In trying to figure out wtf is really going on around here (my home that is) I've been paying closer attention to the little things...what time h leaves for "work" if he calls at all during the day, what time he comes home, his behaviour when he does come home, when and where he actually goes to sleep, time spent with the kids, any drinking that I can see, phone calls in the bathroom or truck etc.

During his A before I knew about it I used to look at his cig pack (back then I didn't carry my own pack just waited for him to get home and would have one or two at the end of the day) and would often find a "lucky" one turned over. He usually explained it away as an accident but it was often enough that it may have been a childish move by ow after all she did sign a letter to him with T.L.A. (incase you've grown up and forgotten that it means true love always). His pack was in our master bath and something had me open it. There was no "lucky" but there was half of a pill. I don't know what kind of pill it is and am assuming it's not his script as it seems he's off that and if it were his script why leave 1/2 of one in your cig pack instead of the bottle. I spoke to my mom who works in the med field and has all the different books with pics of different meds to see if she could help identify it. What she came up with doesn't look good. I took it and will be bringing it to a pharmasist to see if they can help me identify it.

Some may say, what's the point. The point is when I discovered h's ea it was almost a relief...it helped to explain alot of the missing things in our r. drugs and drinking would help explain alot of what's still missing and if I KNOW more about what's going on with him the better position I will be in to put my foot down and not have him telling me I'm just a crazy spoiled little girl. Of course he doesn't use those exact words but he may as well.


any thoughts?

LL

Oldtimer,

I did look up the book you suggested on Amazon and even read some of the reviews. I don't think it's something that would benefit this relationship but may be something I look into at another point.

Thanks for always sticking by me.

LL
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/06/08 06:48 PM
(1) I take it the pill is probably viagra or cialis?

(2) PM will be good for YOU, regardless of the status of your M. Really. PM is a tougher read than DB, but you're a smart chick. Take a look at it. It is about living a life as a distinct individual that works for YOU.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/06/08 06:49 PM
And no, like I've said b4, your H is not asexual.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/06/08 07:08 PM
Hey Oldtimer,

I know my h is not asexual if he were why would he have been renting pay per view porn?

The pill I found turned out to not be too interesting. It's clonazepam and anti seizure med also prescribed for panic attacks. I know that over the past 3 or 4 (who can even tell anymore) years h has been on and off paxil and at one time was taking paxi (if that is what it was) daily along with this other drug when he felt like he was having an anxiety attack. The fact that he's taking it is not the big deal but when combined with the fact that he's drinking as well.

It would be one thing if he could figure out or be honest about what it is that's causing his anxiety and therefore need for this medication and drinking (the porn thing I no longer know about because he can't get it on the tv here and I don't see anything on the computer he's usually just asleep somewhere when he's home). Like let's say he has a tough day for x or y reason..he could simply say I've had a tough day so I'm taking one of my pills it will probably knock me out shortly after getting home but I just can't deal right now. instead he drinks takes the pill and then goes and falls asleep on the couch...I don't know what stressed him out or what he did all day for that matter (remember he runs his own business and it's seasonal).

at this point I think I'm just looking for that final straw but feel like I really shouldn't have to. I feel like he should stand up and say "look I'm not really happy here, I tried, I thought I could come home and make it work but the "it" I left for still isn't here" instead it will be me saying "I can't live this lifestyle any more. Your drinking and taking pills can help explain why you fall asleep almost as soon as you get home but it doesn't answer the why you need to take the pills in the first place. I didn't sign up for this life when I married you nor did I sign up for it when I let you come home after you though you didn't want to divorce me after all" yada yada yada...of course those words wont work either.

UGH!

LL
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/06/08 07:27 PM
Well, I guess that is better than viagara, if more dangerous. But does he have a prescription for it?

Read PM, it will be good for you.

Yes, it does seem as though you'll need to be responsible for your own choices about how to live your life rather than having someone else make the for you ;\)

BTW, I took clonazepam for awhile for a sleep disorder. It is pretty addictive, tolerance and significant withdrawal are both problems. I can't imagine why you wouldn't see the prescription bottle around unless he is hiding it for some reason.

Oh, and if it is a blue pill, are you absolutely certain it is clonazepam?
Posted By: Starshyne Re: found something - 03/06/08 07:33 PM
I would just wonder why it was hidden in a ciggie box and not in a pill bottle.

Sara
Posted By: peaceful_spirit Re: found something - 03/07/08 01:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Starshyne
GAL will work if you picture what you want YOUR life to be with or without your spouse or any patner and go for it.
Yes, Yes, Yes!!! This is so true. And this is what really worked for me.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/07/08 05:55 PM
I posted this on the other thread I started here in piecing but wanted to put it here as well where I can delve a bit more into my sit than I want to on that thread. That thread I want to keep for more general discussion allowing others to post in a way that doesn't require knowing my whole sorid story.

so for those who've followed at least the bits and pieces of my saga over the past 6 years....

I did not mean to imply with my post that the WAS are right in the way they go about leaving (OW, dropping "bombs" etc). I meant what if they really were right to have left and for whatever reason we just couldn't, haven't, don't want to accept the truth and are holding onto that "promise", "commitment", "vow", "document" and not seeing the truth.

I am not talking about the marriages that hit a rough patch and had a spouse bail out I'm talking about the m that probably shouldn't have happend to begin with.

How do you know the difference between a marriage that just went bad for various circumstances that can be fixed vs. a marriage that SHOULD have ended.

and of course if you do come to the decision that yours was/is a marriage that SHOULD have ended but your WAS suddenly doesn't think so how do you know your not seeing things in the same way they once did and only THINK, FEEL, believe (yes smaller letters) it truley SHOULD have ended.

does anyone have a crystal ball.

How do you know when your an "alien" or just an intelligent, rational, reasonable person who see's things for what they are and knows the m SHOULD be over.


OK so why I brought this here....

what if my h came home for all the reasons I gave him to come home? When he was leaving and wanted a D he gave me the "ILY but NOT In LWY" line...to which I replied "I'm not in love with you either but love you and some what not about the family etc." I recall pointing out that things would change over the years as the children grew etc. I also recall knowing back then (actually before knowing about OW) and stating to h that we couldn't just drift along waiting until retirement to enjoy eachother that if we didn't spend time fostering a r as the years go by there wouldn't be one by then...that it would be unlikely we'd want to suddenly share our lives with the stranger we'd lived with for years. Could I be wrong? Is the part of m where your building your financial future and raising the children the part where you are seprate from eachother and then when the finances are set and children grown you get to enjoy each other? No that can't be right!

There are so many things in my head, so many ideas I can't get them strait.

I'm circleing again....a huge part of me KNOWS this m is over and probably should have ended when h left or at least shortly after he came home. BUT (yes LL's famous but), what if I'm wrong? What if I've been the was all along but it was h who had the a and left. What if I've just never been in this r to begin with? That can't be right either. Is the fact that I the open LBS betrayed spouse was never happy to begin with or shocked when he did leave a sign that I was to blame (let's face it some of the LBS here weren't behaving very well and had some things that needed fixing it wasn't all the was fault) or was it h finally realizing and acting?

I could go on and on but I'll stop and see if anyone can understand what I'm trying to get at here.


LL
Posted By: leahsbeau Re: found something - 03/07/08 10:28 PM
I kind of understand what you're saying and think you make some valid points but I can't help that think that most marriages wither because both spouses get so busy taking care of the house, the kids, finances,(or lack of) their jobs and almost everything and everyone else that they forget to take care of the one person they vowed to "love, honor and cherish." We take each other for granted and think that "our" time will come but the years keep cranking over and "our" time keeps getting pushed aside.

Hindsight being 20/20 I see what happened and am so sorry for my part in allowing my marriage to get to the stage where my husband has come to believe that he doesn't love me anymore. I mean, yes, he's going through MLC, and yes, he's lost his mind, but at the same time I have to ask myself if I did everything in my power to make our marriage a place that he would never want to leave. Hell, a good part of the time, I wanted to run away.
Posted By: peaceful_spirit Re: found something - 03/08/08 12:29 PM
I think that right now, you're too conflicted to make any decisions. You need to continue to work through this process, until you're not conflicted anymore -- until you know what you want -- until you stop saying, "But, what if...".

I, too, know the feeling of being conflited -- almost to the point of self torture. But I have found that the answer always come to me, in time.

As for is the WAS really the WAS... I think this is a valid point for most of the LBS. In other words, IMO, the LBS has played a significant role in the WAS leaving and having the A. Somethign was missing for them. Something wasn't right in the M. It's easy for many people to judge the WAS who has an A, saying they are "immoral" or "bad people" or whatever, but the fact is, when there is something powerful missing from the M, and the force of the A comes along to fill that void, it is easy for the WAS to fall into it.

Emotions are a strong thing. And when one is following their emotions and trying to fill their emotional needs, an A may take place.

Now, of course, having an A is "wrong" and is a betrayal. I'm just saying that if the LBS can understand how it came to be that the WAS was drawn away to begin with, it can help with forgiveness.

So, is the WAS really the WAS? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But generally speaking, it takes two to make a marriage work and it takes two to make a marriage troubled.

Now back to you... just continue on this path of self discovery. I think that in time, you will find your answer.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/08/08 05:45 PM
Originally Posted By: leahsbeau
I kind of understand what you're saying and think you make some valid points but I can't help that think that most marriages wither because both spouses get so busy taking care of the house, the kids, finances,(or lack of) their jobs and almost everything and everyone else that they forget to take care of the one person they vowed to "love, honor and cherish." We take each other for granted and think that "our" time will come but the years keep cranking over and "our" time keeps getting pushed aside.


See that's the part that confuses me. I've always been the one noticing and trying to get him to notice/accept/acknowledge maybe even do something about the fact that we don't/haven't/weren't making the time for us. He always seemed to think that falling alseep on the other couch while watching tv in the same room was somehow enough to keep a r going. I knew he worked alot and was absorbed in his business/sports etc. I may have been naive and young when I married him thinking I'd eventually do the same with the kids and the house that would eventually come along and it wouldn't matter so much that he wasn't really accessable. I've discovered that I can balance life. I can take care of the children, the home, the pets, the laundry, myself and still make the time and have the desire for an intimate relationship with a member of the opposite sex (naimly him). He was the one who wasn't/couldn't/wouldn't/isn't/doesn't

So then why was he the one to have an affair and leave?

sure he's back but it's still work/sports/news for him. Still can't/wont/doesn't make time for US so there is slowly becoming no US...sure there's an us in the sense that I'm his wife, we are the parents, it's our house, we do take two family vacations a year (more like we all go somewhere else for a week or two twice a year) but where is the US.

Yes it seems I've jumped back into the...it should have been me who had the affair...attitude.

I still don't get it.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/10/08 02:51 PM
looking to find some of my old threads...they were all linked onto one of my older threads but I can't seem to find any. It may be because they are old (then why give that timeframe in the search criteria) or gone for some reason. I've even tried just doing a search in the timeframes of my screen name.

any help would be appreciated. I want to take a look at what if anything has change, what I was doing thinking then, what he was doing then etc.

some names of threads

h can say he wants a divorce
silly monkey
the battle within
h wants to come home
found the key

I know there are more but those are the names that are coming to me.

LL
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/10/08 03:09 PM
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212472&page=0&fpart=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=204459&page=0&fpart=5

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=561932&page=0&fpart=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=427609&site_id=1#import oldest thread found
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/11/08 04:19 PM
Q: Why did H have an A?
A: The M wasn't working for him.

Q: Why?
A: Who knows. But it sounds a lot like neither of you finds the other person to be someone they want as a romantic partner.

Q: Did your not wanting to be M to *him*, but someone you thought he would become play a role in his dissatisfaction with the M?
A: Probably.

Q: Were you/are you a potential WAS?
A: No, you have repeatedly tried to work on the M.

Q: Is your lack of attraction/interest/like/regard/respect/love for H part of the problem in your M.
A: Sure.

Q: Would suddenly having attraction/interest/like/regard/respect/love for H fix the problems in your M.
A: No. Love may be a choice, but you can't make that choice for H, and he isn't making it. Moreover, I don't think love really is a choice. You can CHOOSE to give love a chance, support it, nurture it, and so on. But, you simply can't point at some person at random and choose to love them.

Q: Why do you feel like you are the one who should have had the A?
A: Because you are stuck in the you-are-the-right-and-noble-victim role. Surely, if anyone has been wronged, it has been you. Not very helpful thinking.

-- You are mostly talking to people about 5 years behind you on this stuff. They are still chasing the WAS, desperate for even a chance at reconciliation. You are back in your M, and have been for years.

-- You are circling because you are afraid of doing anything but chasing your tail.

-- You know what, you were wrong about a lot of stuff, you have made mistakes. So what. You are human. We all are. Give up holding onto having been the person who was right and noble. You and H are two vulnerable, hurting people trying to do your best. The M isn't working for either of you. As a result, to cope, you are both doing things you shouldn't and neither of you are at your best.

-- Find YOUR best. Read PM. This is about YOU. I don't care about your H. I care about YOU.

-- Read PM.

-- Read PM.
Posted By: hopeforfuture Re: found something - 03/11/08 04:40 PM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
A: No. Love may be a choice, but you can't make that choice for H, and he isn't making it. Moreover, I don't think love really is a choice. You can CHOOSE to give love a chance, support it, nurture it, and so on. But, you simply can't point at some person at random and choose to love them.


Just wanted to comment on this one point. I think this is something a lot of us struggle with. Oldtimer, you are correct in that you can't decide to love just anyone at random and hope that it works, but I don't think that is where the majority of us started out. (with the exception of arranged marriages)

For the most part, we all started down this relationship path falling madly and head over heels with the perfect partner and at some point decided to take the plunge and get married. A few years down the road is where the 'decision' to love really needs to kick in. Life, responsibilities, stress, etc come knocking on the door and we forget that a long term, committed relationship takes a lot of nurturing and work. Falling in love typically just happens. Maintaining that love is where the decision is.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/11/08 04:44 PM
Hey Oldtimer,

You're right! I fail to recognize the fact (and so do they when posting to me) that I am no newcomer...I've been at this for years. But what about getting back to basics? does that even apply in my sit?

Still doesn't help me to be certain with what to do about the m. I appreciate your reminding me that I am not a waw...but if all waw's posted here first wouldn't their stories sound like mine? wouldn't they be just like me? maybe the difference is a typical waw wouldn't come here and certainly wouldn't hold out for so many years waiting, hoping that something would change the dynamic.

I guess I'll have to get myself a copy of PM and see if it can offer me anything.

LL
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/11/08 05:23 PM
"I guess I'll have to get myself a copy of PM and see if it can offer me anything."

\:D

Look, if you ever get past all this, you'll see that the almighty division between the WAS and the LBS really isn't all that great. The people who find themselves here weren't in healthy Ms. The WASs simply take action first, typically in a way the LBS doesn't like. But it is easy as an LBS to criticize the WAS. Oh, the LBS would have done things so much better. Blah blah blah. Of course, the LBS never had to get up the nerve to act. You are SO HUNG UP on being right, that you can't even bear to think that someone might think you a WAW. Look, if a WAS is so evil, then why is anyone trying to reconcile?

The two biggest problems with being a WAS are easily avoidable:

(1) CLEAR WARNING: Write H an email that says, "H, I am very unhappy in our M. It is not working for me. I am seriously thinking about leaving. Count this as fair warning. If our M doesn't change into an R that works for me, I will pursue a D."

(2) NO CHEATING: Don't start dating/having sex with other people until you make it clear to H that you consider yourself free to date/have sex with other people and you will not be sharing further information about your private life with him.

If you do those things, then you are cleared of any evil-WAW charges that someone might try to lodge against you. I would say, try to keep an open mind after separation. But if you separate, you'll probably be DONE. So, that is probably pretty unrealistic. But, that is OK. You are allowed to close the door on an R that is unhealthy for you, if that is what it comes to.
Posted By: sgctxok Re: found something - 03/11/08 05:38 PM
Things haven't changed much...I'm still afraid to upset the apple cart full of apples that aren't good enough to make a christmas pie. Constantly questioning if it is as bad as I fell it is or if I just can't get the mud colored glasses off. From my words above you may be able to figure out that I'm begining to take steps toward where I want to be in my life. I've realized that the kinds of things I've been doing to gal have been wonderful and helped me along the way but now I find myself in a holding pattern with h. If I can't motivate him to better our r (or recreate one is more like it at this point)I'll have to motivate myself, decide who I want to be and go for it. Enough letting this m drag me down. I'm going to start living the rest of my life now.



Hi lost.....


What specifically would you like to change in your marriage.

What would you like to have more of...What would you like him to do?




Quote:

(1) CLEAR WARNING: Write H an email that says, "H, I am very unhappy in our M. It is not working for me. I am seriously thinking about leaving. Count this as fair warning. If our M doesn't change into an R that works for me, I will pursue a D."



This is the AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE. It does NOT seem like you are there yet. You only do this when you definitely want a divorce and are done doing anything yourself.

GAL is a good thing. Especially if you are doing things to make you happy. It isn't enough for a marriage though. There are other things you can do as well...depending on your relationship goals.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/11/08 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: sgctxok


Hi lost.....


What specifically would you like to change in your marriage.

What would you like to have more of...What would you like him to do?


I would like a date night and have asked for it and his answer is NO. A scheduled date night could be anything from getting a sitter and going out to dinner, the movies, running errands or staying home and spending some awake no tv time together after the kids go to bed...this of course would have been a lot easier when the kids were little and in bed tucked in by 7PM now it's still doable but our alone time wouldn't start until 8:30...still OK but he's usually asleep by then. Why he wouldn't agree to this date night? I don't know...so instead we just don't spend time together connecting at all.

obviously anything else really would be foolish if #1 date night (which really is let's spend time fostering a r in a fun way...let's become friends again). How can I ask for a sex life if I no longer want sex with him. And after all when I asked for a more frequent sex life that got balked at too..."that's just the way I am" was the best response I could get. Didn't matter that "that's just NOT the way I am". So he wins...no date night and no sexual relationship.

I'd like for him to be more involved in the kids lives but cannot make any mention of a defecit of anykind in his fathering abilities because he wont hear it. He's a great father in his mind.



GAL is a good thing. Especially if you are doing things to make you happy. It isn't enough for a marriage though. There are other things you can do as well...depending on your relationship goals.


I've been doing things for me all along...they were great for me but didn't help the m at all. Some I've outgrown and some I just put less focus on as other things required more time. The things I've been doing were more busy type things not life goal type things. Joining the gym will be a good ME thing as will going back to school. For over 9 years I've wanted to get my masters first came the kids (no problem I wanted them and don't regret putting off school or a career because of them) then came h's a and seperation. When he first returned I expressed interest in going back to school to which he replied "why don't you just get a job with the degree you have now" that's a great idea for some fields but not mine...I'd be working ridiculous hours in high stress situations for pennies. With an masters degree I'd have more options for employment and pay.

Anyway, Thanks for stopping by..it's always nice to know a moderator is paying attention...and on that note...I have a question for you sgctxok, should I be in this forum if I don't really feel like I'm piecing? I don't think I belong in waw's yet nor do I really feel like "I'm thinking about leaving" is the place for me either...is it just that the gang that was here when h first came home has moved on making me feel like maybe I don't belong here or is it something else? Is it like oldtimer says...I'm 5+ years ahead of where the rest of these posters are?
Does JamesJohn ever post anymore?

LL
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/11/08 06:36 PM
SG,

Actually, I wasn't suggesting that LL do anything right now. I was suggesting ways for her to avoid being a WW.

But, I'm not sure why you are suggesting that she be less than direct with her H about where she is right now. Perhaps you aren't familiar with LL's sitch. She has been trying everything under the sun, and nothing works. She has DB'd meticulously and consistently for extended periods of time, and nothing changes. She has tried new things, and nothing changes. She has pushed herself in pretty much any way possible R-wise to improve her M, and nothing changes. In my view, it is a good thing that she is actually focused on trying to change her life into one that she wants rather than one that she suffers. Maybe it will even help her M. If not, it will still certainly help her.

Maybe as you suggest she is not at the After the Last Resort stage. I'm not sure exactly what that means. But I'd say that she is seriously considering leaving her M, and that she will probably make a choice about that within a year or less. Of course, I can't really *know* that. It is just how it seems to me based on my having known LL for many years and always keeping up with her posts. If I had to lay money, I'd say she's reaching the end unless something really changes. I'm not sure why you think it is a bad idea to give her husband a head's up about this. Her goal is to NOT be a WAW whose husband doesn't know what hit him.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/12/08 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: hopeforfuture
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
A: No. Love may be a choice, but you can't make that choice for H, and he isn't making it. Moreover, I don't think love really is a choice. You can CHOOSE to give love a chance, support it, nurture it, and so on. But, you simply can't point at some person at random and choose to love them.


Just wanted to comment on this one point. I think this is something a lot of us struggle with. Oldtimer, you are correct in that you can't decide to love just anyone at random and hope that it works, but I don't think that is where the majority of us started out. (with the exception of arranged marriages)

For the most part, we all started down this relationship path falling madly and head over heels with the perfect partner and at some point decided to take the plunge and get married. A few years down the road is where the 'decision' to love really needs to kick in. Life, responsibilities, stress, etc come knocking on the door and we forget that a long term, committed relationship takes a lot of nurturing and work. Falling in love typically just happens. Maintaining that love is where the decision is.


Hopeforthefuture, I'm glad you used the term "for the most part" because though my m was not arrainged we weren't "head over heels in love" when we got married. H and I met while very young (I cringe when I hear about my cousins or any young persons in long term relationships at that age) I was just 16 and he 19...though we did have a few break ups during that time (they never really lasted long) 9 years after meeting we got married. I've always been the one to evaluate and express concern for our r. H has always made promises for the future. I believed those promises but now find myself realizing they were empty unless of course they will somehow come to fruition in another 20 years when he's retired but somehow I don't think that's going to happen. I've been trying to feed the relationship and keep it going for over decade...I can't get through to h no matter what I do, don't do, say, don't say, say it differntly etc. I've even gone to the effort of trying to compare our r to something he can relate to...lawns...if you don't water, fertelize, irrate, overseed, mow and care for a lawn it will not be what you want. You can dream for it, hope for it, wish for it, do a couple of little things to it but it's just not going to be a lush green carpet unless you do what is needed. He understands and believes that when it comes to lawns but apparently he thinks you don't have to do anything for a r and it will just be. Or maybe he's thinking he can let the r just sit while he does other things and then someday he can start caring for it like you can with a lawn...trouble is I'm not a lawn I am a human being. The yard doesn't care if it has lush green grass or not but I do care that at best I have even a yellowish (if compared to a lawn) m with lots of bald patches and weeds growing everywhere not to mention the leaves and sticks lying around from the fall that didn't get cleaned up and the sand and dirt blown over from the drive way. He'll certainly clean the yard and we'll have a beautiful lawn once again come late spring but our m will still be drying up and balding.


I chose to love him. I chose to trust him. I chose to believe in him and what have I gotten in return? Two beautiful children, a nice home and a highly maintaned lawn, but a crappy m.

Should the fact that he is currently the breadwinner, takes out the trash and cares for the lawn wonderfully be enough?

Maybe he'll have another a and leave or just decide to leave and I wont have to be the one making the choice not to him love anymore but I really can't put my future in his hands can I. My only alternative (considering the fact that it appears this is "just the way he is" and is not willing to make any changes) seems to be to make that decision myself. As I've said to him I don't know how much longer I can do this...of course all he can say to that is "well that sucks" Here I'll give you the exact word for word if it will help you to understand exactly where I'm coming from

sil (while preg with first child) and her new h had come to stay at our house for a night after spending the day out looking for their new home. Sil was complaining that her h was still wanting sex...I told her she was lucky (my h didn't want sex with me at all the minute he knew I was preg) gave them a book to read and went downstairs to h who was still sitting awake at the bar.

Me: "I hate people that are in love"

H: "what?"

Me: "well no I don't really hate them it just makes me sad sometimes"

H: "what?"

Me: "I thought when you came home (from sep, ow, his adimantly wanting D) we were supposed to be growing closer together but I feel like we are just growing further and further apart and I don't know how much longer I can do it"

H: "well that sucks"

end of discussion This was roughly 3 years ago. Not much has changed other than h is not awake in the evenings (he's often in bed before I put the kids to bed at 8PM even though he gets up just a few minutes before us)


LL
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/12/08 10:03 PM
During our 9+ month seperation h payed the bills and mowed the lawn (even though I asked him to show me how to do it) and on a few occassions handed me wads of cash, even talked about putting in a pool for me and the kids (it was a hot summer and we've since gotten a pool) as well as other small things around the house. H was attentive to me and the kids more during our seperation. H arrived promptly on the evenings he was scheduled to visit the kids and actually spent time with them and then at different times would even spend time with me.

Now h pays the bills and cares for the lawn...gets home a different time each night (I no longer ask when he'll be home) and often when he says he'll be home at 4 he doesn't show up until 5:30 without a word that he'd be coming home later or an appology or reason for why he's 1 1/2 hrs later than he said he would be...of course I don't call and say "where are you" and when he does get home I don't say "where have you been" those were the things that I had done BEFORE ow and BEFORE seperation that he didn't like.

What's my point?

If the 9+ month seperation while I was caring for our two children who at the time were both under 3 is any indicator of what D would be like...I'll take it!!! Trouble is that may have been what D would be like then with HIM deciding the M was over and him having OW. If it's me that decides (or more like points out the fact that) the M is over I'm not so sure it will go that way.

Why do I feel like a prisoner or a child with no control.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/13/08 02:54 PM
"Why do I feel like a prisoner or a child with no control. "

Because that is how you are treating yourself. Your role, your choice. You are a free adult. Your life is a result of your choices.
Posted By: lostlove an example - 03/14/08 12:04 AM
here's an example of how little interaction there is between h and the kids and I.

Today is Thursday...for the winter h has been working on Th & Fr at a place about 2hrs away...sometimes he's come home on Th night and sometimes he's stayed with relatives that have a home there. Today he left before we got up and called while I was driving the kids to school so didn't reach me...he called again around 10AM to see if I knew the results of a town vote last night that he attended. He called again around 4:30 while the kids and I were at a weekly activity that takes place from 3-5 every Thurs. He did not call my cellphone that I had with me. His message only said "anyone there? OK I'll call later" it is now 8PM the time that the kids go to bed and he still hasn't called...I do not know if he is on his way home or if he is staying up there because he didn't say. The point I'm trying to make is that..the kids haven't even asked where he is or if he is coming home. In past weeks he's not told me his plans but I overheard him telling son he'd be staying up there...WTF.

LL

H was never very good at verbal communication...I used to write to him...not that that ever really did any good...sure he'd read them but a discussion never occured as a result. I don't feel like having another go no where conversation with him...thinking of writing something...I'll draft something and post it to see if anyone can help me get rid of any blaming, nagging things that aren't needed. I figure it's the least I can do at this point. Like most h's of was...h thinks that if I'm not complaining that everythings fine.

LL
Posted By: Trip Re: found something - 03/14/08 12:51 AM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
"Why do I feel like a prisoner or a child with no control. "

Because that is how you are treating yourself. Your role, your choice. You are a free adult. Your life is a result of your choices.


Sorry to butt in here but man, that is good, OT. I am writing that one down to use on myself.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/14/08 04:13 PM
LL,

Good plan. *More movement.* \:D
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/14/08 06:31 PM
Just put some things down...very very very rough draft


I am appreciative of the effort you have put in over the years at growing and tending to your business as a means to provide a beautiful home for our family. I am grateful for the fact that you working as hard as you do affords me the luxury of staying home with our children. I am honored to have one of the best if not the best yards in our town and probably surrounding area. I take pride in knowing that my husband is able to and does care for the outside appearance of our home making it a welcome place for gatherings of family and friends and often both. I feel lucky to have a husband that is smart enough with finances that our children do not have to go without but still learn the discipline of waiting for and/or earning the luxuries they have. I am proud, honored, gratefulÖ that your efforts at providing a good life for our family allows us to entertain without wondering how we will pay for the food, that we can take annual vacations that donít put us in debt. I am grateful and lucky in so many areas that it saddens me to feel the emptiness that I do when it comes to our marriage and ultimately our family.

The distance growing between us is heartbreaking. These feelings are as you know not new. I tried when we were just dating to accept the fact that we didnít spend much quality time together because you were busy securing a strong financial future for us. I believed you when you told me the next year would be better because youíd be more secure in your business. When we were getting married I thought that Iíd find myself just as busy with our home and children and wouldnít mind you being so busy with your business. As the years have passed by youíve become more and more vested in your businessÖthat I still respect and do understand there is now the added pressure of the sole responsibility for the financial stability of our family on your shoulders. Unlike some wives, I have no fear that the phones will get shut off or weíll have to serve only hot dogs and burgers at our next cook out because we canít afford steak and chicken. I donít worry that our children wonít be able to participate in extracurricular activities because we need that money to pay the bills. I donít worry that youíll gamble away our retirement or the kids savings. There are a lot of things I donít have to worry about and for that I am again grateful and I know it is YOU who make it so.

Obviously Iím trying to say more here than you are a wonderful provider and maintainer of our home. Iím seriously concerned for our marriage and family. It is not a matter of this week I feel this way or even this season. I know the winter has been hectic with itís storms but what winter isnít. The spring will soon come and youíll be busy with work again until the winter, which again might be busy with snow. Itís not about your business or your very strong work ethic, itís what itís always been that those things come first. My complaints are not new to you and maybe thatís why nothing ever changes but now something has to change. I donít feel connected to you at all and as I said to you three years ago, I donít know how much longer I can do this (your response then was ďwell that sucksĒ) Iíve tried talking to you about our marriage and get nowhere. When I come to you to discuss the state of our marriage you either have nothing to say or you tell me to call a lawyer and put the house up for sale and disrupt the kids lives. I feel very stuck. Iíve tried many ways over the years to ask for what I want and need from our relationship. Iíve tried to give you what you want when you are wiling to let me know what that is. I asked you if you would want for either of our children to end up in a marriage like ours and you agreed that you wouldnít and yet donít seem to want to do anything to create a marriage you wouldnít mind your kids choosing for themselves one day. Iíve asked for what I want/need repeatedly and repeatedly been given reasons why you wont or it just hasnít happened. Just last January (after you chose to go to see the Patís play for the weekend) you told me this (2007) was going to be the year that things would be different when you were going to step up to the plate (not the exact words you used but the point), I donít feel like that happened.

I donít want our marriage to be over but I feel like it is. I donít know what I thought was going to change after our separation but if anything changed it was for the worse not the better. Iím not writing to you to attack you or put this all on your lap Iím writing to you because I feel like Iím at my wits end. I have tried making suggestions like a date night each week, Iíve tried to keep myself busy in hopes that maybe my being busy would peek your interest. I donít feel like Iíve been met with honesty from you. If you are still not happy in this marriage then itís not fair to choose to just accept that itís your cross to bearÖitís not just about you there are other people involved in this marriage (meaning our children).

I think our kids deserve to have a whole family. A whole family to me is not just having mom and dad still married and living under the same roof. Itís having a mom and dad who still make the time to spend with each other, who still laugh together, who are friends and can deal with issues as a team.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: found something - 03/15/08 02:39 AM
LL,

Seem long, but good.

Can you talk more about your feelings and pain? Open up...
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/16/08 09:24 PM
I know it's long but there are some things that just need to be said. I expect it to be a lot longer by the time I finish it. The real question will be when to give it to him.

I'm thinking of moving to the forum "I'm thinking about leaving" I know there's not as much traffic there but let's face it "piecing" really isn't the place for me.

I've started to accept the fact that d may be the only valid solution. I've been waiting for the better part of 15 years for h to actively participate in this r...it was always promised to get better and didn't then a crisis would come along and I (and others) would think that was what was needed to get him to change...it just hasn't happend. I cannot blame our problems on h's current drinking anymore than I could blame OW for our problems...who knows maybe a d is what he needs to wake himself up.

I have another c appointment on Tuesday, getting somethings done with different volunteer organizations I belong to so have let some things get behind around the house. Busy the begining of this week with those but plan to then get the house in order and get on a regular schedule with going to the gym.

Oldtimer...you are right a decision will be made by me and action taken before the calendar changes to 2009. I really cannot subject myself and my children to this anymore. They may get mad a me...they may suffer the intial shock but I think in short time they will reap the benefits of it. I know a statement that the children will reap benefits of a divorce may sound a horrible thought to some on this board but if you knew my whole sit and the day to day of our lives here you may understand that d may be what is needed to have h step up to the plate as daddy. What will be different is that I will not change my mind once I take that route...there will be no turning back. Once I decide enough is enough it will be over and I'm at the point of enough is enou (yes you see there are just two letters away from being done). I'm not going to be vicious or shady about it but I need to look out for the best interest of my children.

LL
Posted By: Daybreak Re: found something - 03/17/08 12:38 AM
LL,

Thought I would do a quick drive by since both of us have been at this for a very long time. I get the sense from my IC that the best thing for me would be to "punch out" as well and although I don't want to give up hope - like you, I just don't really know anymore.

Although I don't get much in the way of responses over in Hopefulness, I moved over to there. These days I try to journal although work has been keeping me way too busy - but I try to hit the highlights when I can...

It looks to me that you are at the "After the Last Resort" stage or are very close to that - and there is no going back over the Rubicon once that happens. No judgement from here but I know you will do the best thing for you and your children - and those who really know what you have been through will be in your corner regardless...
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/18/08 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Daybreak


It looks to me that you are at the "After the Last Resort" stage or are very close to that - and there is no going back over the Rubicon once that happens. No judgement from here but I know you will do the best thing for you and your children - and those who really know what you have been through will be in your corner regardless...


Hi Daybreak,

I'll have to find my copy of db and dr to refresh my memory as to what the difference between the LRT and the After the LRT is. The difficult thing for me is trying to figure out exactly what is in the best interest of the children. If I can't change the dynamic between h and I, I feel like my children will be getting less than they deserve. Perhaps if h is no longer living the lie of being my h he will grow and then have more to offer the children than the scripted version of life. I really wish I could wake him up, have him understand how short life is and that you can't keep assuming you'll have next year or next decade or your retirement to enjoy your family and your life. I thought he learned that during seperation but maybe those were just lies to tell to get back home. I just don't know what to do anymore. If I didn't believe h was capable of being "more" I don't think I would have let him home or even held on for as long as I have. I understand the waw statement "too little to late and are these changes for real" I've been living the cycle for too long not to think that. I'm starting to realize that the waw's get a bad rap...sure some of it they deserve by waiting until they are involved with OM to leave...what though is the difference between a woman who waits for OM before they leave or the one who waits until they get a job or loose the weight or get the house in order or ...

UGH

LL
Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: found something - 03/19/08 04:17 PM
LL,

It's funny. I've been reading your sitch and it reminds me of where I've been and where my marriage was after H's first affair. That was over 10 years ago. It occurred after our second child was born. Looking back I know we had many years of just kind of plodding along in the marriage, trying to "fix it," but never really feeling connected again.

Over the years I know we both thought of leaving. I had read a book once about a character married to a doctor who leaves her home, travels to another state, and then quietly starts a new life there. She gets an apartment, a simple job, and even has a romance! I never forgot that book and I used to dream about doing the same thing. Just chucking everything and starting a new life elsewhere. But, I didn't do it, even through I've never forgotten that book. Someday I would like to have an adventure like that. (Although I did have some fun and adventure during the D!) By the way, at the end of that book the character ends up going back to her home and being with her husband. There was no drama to it. She just kind of decides it's time to go back to her life. I think she felt it was comfortable and where she belonged.

I wish I had some good advice for you. I think it's a very good idea that you are going back to school. Interestingly, that had been my plan too. I had figured once the kids were a little more independent I'd go back to school to brush up on my education, maybe get an extra degree or credential... and then go have MY adventure.

But my husband jumped the gun on me!
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/22/08 04:51 PM
adding to the draft letter a few posts back



I think our kids deserve to have a whole family. A whole family to me is not just having mom and dad still married and living under the same roof. Itís having a mom and dad who still make the time to spend with each other, who still laugh together, who are friends and can deal with issues as a team. I feel like we are just going through the motions at best. You are dad who does what he does and I am mom who does what she does but where is the example of a loving couple that our children would hope to one day aspire to. If we cannot find a way to be that for our childrenís benefit then I donít see how the ďwe got married and had kids and thatís just the way it isĒ is a positive way to look at things. Time is passing quickly and the kids are no longer babies. They are starting to create their own pictures of what their adult lives will, should be. If we are giving them an example we donít want for them we are not being good parents.

As I said above, I donít want our marriage to be over but I do want the way our marriage has been to be over. Something has to change what that is I donít know. I could be completely wrong but despite your silence on the subject I donít believe you are truly happy or even content with our current relationship either.

For the record these are my thoughts and feelings and mine alone. I donít know what the next step is. Iíd like for us to be able to honestly discuss things without resorting to threats of selling the house or waking up one day and deciding itís not worth it. You asked who wrote the book on how itís (marriage) supposed to beÖwell, I think thatís up to the individuals in a marriage. Being that a marriage is made up of two distinct individuals it can be difficult to come to an understanding of what that means for them. Itís time we figured out what we each think a marriage ďshouldĒ be and how those views differ and what if anything we can do to find a compromise or solution for those differences if we find they are there.
Posted By: lostlove Re: found something - 03/23/08 04:51 AM
realizing h may be an alchoholic and as much as I don't like to put labels on people I think he fits the profile very well. Having said that...I don't think it'll make a rats a$$ what I say or do he's not going to change and this is NOT ok for my children.

Oldtimer...it's taken me a long time but I think we are going to see real movement in LL's world very soon!

LL
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