Previous thread
Time for a Better Man quote:
"If God looked directly into your eyes
and said
"I command you be happy in the world,
as long as you live"
What would you do
Remove the things from my life that interfere with my happiness. Find the things that make me happy and do them.
Probally complain that he couldn't. ; )
That wasn't very loving Jack......
I winked.
Sides...not exactly looking for man love.
Sides...not exactly looking for man love.
Turning over a new leaf are we
This is the fastest moving thread I have ever seen. I leave for a couple of hours and its 3 pages longer and locked!!!
Proud of you Frank. So what (exactly) are the things you are going to change? I want to hear what you are doing for you....
Ohhh Frankie Poo. I tried to call you!!!
Hi gang.
So Ian and I were talking and I thought I might give you a call. I tried and it went to VM. I hope you might be in a meeting.
I'm not sure I ever told you this. We spoke by phone in Dec. of 06. It was close to Christmas. The man I spoke to on the phone opened my eye (I only have one) to so much in the short convos we had.
I was not D at the time and was still struggling with keeping my damn mouth shut and focusing on me. I was a posting fool on here and just wanting everything to be ok. And something struck me not but an hour or two after our conversation while I was in KS visiting family.
Guess what?! Everything is ok. I am fine. I'm happier now then before. I have learned so much about myself and those around me. I've embraced life as it comes towards me thanks to you and so many others on here. And the BEST part.. I didn't need CL back in my life to accomplish this. It happened because I focused on me. What Tyson/Tiara Boy/Confused Mess needed.
What did I need? I needed me without another addiction in my life. Whether it was alcohol, drugs or my EX that's right-- EX Wife. I have been addicted to all three. I have removed those demons for today.
I found Tyson. I now know what Attorney Tom had always preached. He kept telling me to focus on ME. I finally started doing it. And I love me (yes Ian, in more ways than one).
What I realized by focusing on me is that I will be ok no matter what. Everyone in my life is just an added bonus.
My gf (you all remember val) mentioned to me tonight (and I am not sh*tting you here) that in all her past relationships she felt as though she would not be ok on her own. In this R "I have learned from you that you are a bonus and I could and would be ok without you. I'm not saying that I wouldn't be sad, but I know that life would go on and I would do just fine..." That is something that made me smile and two years ago to hear that from my ex wife I would have been writing here and bawling on the phone to any one of you.
I don't want to make this too long (hahaha i know... it's already a novel) but just a few things I have learned through my D and this place...
1. I have NO control. None, Zero, zip. I can control my thoughts, my actions and me. That's it. My ex... nope. My gf? nope.. My job.. Only what I,ME,Tyson can do. I cannot control how people will react, what they will say or what they will do. I can however control how I respond to it.
2. Expectations are the devil. They really do cause us to be miserable. Case in point: Everytime I would talk to CL before the "breakthrough" I would play the entire scenario through in my head. How she would respond, what I would say....blah blah blah. It never worked out that way and I usually ended up worse off. Even at work I would walk into an office thinking that I was there to fix a simple issue. It turned into a 4 hour ordeal. I was PO'd. If I would have walked into the office thinking "Let's see what this experience has in store for me"... I would not be surprised or upset by anything.
When we expect others to act a certain way, respond a certain way or be a certain way we are setting ourselves up for a huge disappointment. I even did that with myself for so many years that it kept a straw in my nose and me in the bottom of the bottle. Now I just do what I can and let the pieces fall where they may.
3. Faith or belief... everything happens for a reason and in our loving, comfortable place known as the pity pot we fail to see this.
I will finish my novel now.
Make yourself a priority Frank. You owe yourself that. You owe your kids that.
And don't let Ian try to talk you into picking anything up for him. It hurts!
Just be my friend and you will be fine.
I meant that to say "JUST BE" and you will be fine my friend. Not just be my friend. I mean, you can be my friend. You don't need to be my friend for things to be fine though. You would be fine if you weren't my friend, it would be nice if you were though.
I quit.
I meant that to say "JUST BE" and you will be fine my friend. Not just be my friend. I mean, you can be my friend. You don't need to be my friend for things to be fine though. You would be fine if you weren't my friend, it would be nice if you were though.
I quit.
lol
I meant that to say "JUST BE" and you will be fine my friend. Not just be my friend. I mean, you can be my friend. You don't need to be my friend for things to be fine though. You would be fine if you weren't my friend, it would be nice if you were though.
I quit.
That adult ADD is a bitch aint it tyson.........
Thanks Tyson. This whole thread has been like a bad remake of "It's a Wonderful Life". Frank has done so much for others and nothing for himself. Even to the extent that by failing to do for himself he has hurt his family.
A big lesson.
And I don't have control over anyone or anything. Only myself. Like you said, I just need to shut up and deal with my own crap. That's it.
Tonight we went 'as a family' to our favorite restaurant for D18's birthday. We picked up W at her house and I drove. W sat in the back seat with D18 and D18's boyfriend. Lot's of joking and stuff going on during the 1/2 hour drive.
At dinner we were all pleasant. W had no trouble talking to me and making eye contact, even making a joke or two. The girls had fun and of course the food was good.
She offered to pay for half of the bill but I told her this was my treat for D18.
On the way home I kind of realized that I am no fun to be around. I haven't been for a long time. Something to change.
Dropped W off at her house and she even said goodbye to me.
I agree with you Tyson, I'm addicted to the pain. I'm addicted to being a victim. I'm addicted to being rejected by W. I'm addicted to alcohol.
Like I've said before, 10 years ago I wasn't like this. I was on top of the game.
I'll put the time and energy into myself with no expectations as to what will happen with my family, except that I will love and be loved by my daughters.
Not drinking tonight even though I feel like crap.
Sounds like a good evening Frank. I think you are going to get back on top of the game in short time.
This restaurant we go to we've been going to for 23 years. Some of the waitresses have been there 15 years and have seen both our kids grow up. In every way it is 'our family restaurant'.
W made some comments to D18's Boyfriend on the drive over that "Frank always says you should starve yourself before we go here so you can get the most out of it". We ordered the same way we always have for years - she tells the waitress the usual items.
Memories. Familiarity. It's surreal sometimes. Nothing has changed. Everything has changed.
If you drink you will not feel better. It'll numb some pain briefly, but cause you far more pain in the morning. Then how will you cope with that "new" pain and regret? Think it out Frank. A drink or two....will lead to 10 or more. You'll take a big fall 4567 steps backward and have to start all over.
But what if you only had two or three drinks? You'll still take a fall backwards and your d's and w will still see it as a fall off the wagon. And it will be.
And instead of the peaceful evening your d has in her heart right now, as a bday gift, which is THE present she really wanted was that; an evening together as a family....will be stained by those "few" drinks.
Don't take it away. You did well tonight. You don't have to drink, tonight.
(( j ))
If you drink you will not feel better. It'll numb some pain briefly, but cause you far more pain in the morning. Then how will you cope with that "new" pain and regret? Think it out Frank. A drink or two....will lead to 10 or more. You'll take a big fall 4567 steps backward and have to start all over.
totally true. That's the cycle I've gotten stuck in over and over. No, it ends now.
But what if you only had two or three drinks? You'll still take a fall backwards and your d's and w will still see it as a fall off the wagon. And it will be.
And instead of the peaceful evening your d has in her heart right now, as a bday gift, which is THE present she really wanted was that; an evening together as a family....will be stained by those "few" drinks.
Don't take it away. You did well tonight. You don't have to drink, tonight.
(( j ))
Amen. I don't and I won't.
And, I got four hugs and thank-you's from D18 tonight. FOUR! That's a record.
The past year has been such a colossal waste of my life. I wouldn't let go of the need to try to control anything. Angry, sad, happy, hurt.
What I learned from all this is that I don't like hurting all the time. But I was addicted to it.
I actually feel somewhat relaxed right now. Tired, but relaxed.
I have no control over anyone else. I control only my thoughts and feelings.
Memories. Familiarity. It's surreal sometimes. Nothing has changed. Everything has changed.
Yes! And it's all ok. It's ok to feel all of that. It's ok. And YOU will be ok.
What plans do you have for today?
Enjoy your day...and the climate you live in. We are smack dab in the middle of a bad winter storm.
Hugs,
Spitfire
Hey Frank,
Glad you had a nice evening. By the way, which restaurant did you go to? I sure miss California food, and what I wouldn't do for an In-n-Out burger.
So, for today.....what are your plans?
Just one day at a time!
Hey Frank,
Glad you had a nice evening. By the way, which restaurant did you go to? I sure miss California food, and what I wouldn't do for an In-n-Out burger.
So, for today.....what are your plans?
Just one day at a time!
In n Out is my favorite!!!
Hope you are doing well Frank. Glad to hear about the nice dinner.
Mogo's Mongolian Barbecue on Van Nuys blvd in Studio City.
[/quote]
The past year has been such a colossal waste of my life. I wouldn't let go of the need to try to control anything. Angry, sad, happy, hurt.
What I learned from all this is that I don't like hurting all the time. But I was addicted to it.
I actually feel somewhat relaxed right now. Tired, but relaxed.
I have no control over anyone else. I control only my thoughts and feelings. [/quote]
Frank,
I wouldn't say the last year was a waste of your life, it was a learning experience that you need to use wisely. You have seen that it wasn't getting you anywhere so now you know you need to change it. Let go of the past and live in the present. Don't even look to the future because none of us knows what our futures hold.
If you keep dwelling on the past it will get you no where. Someone told me to keep track of all the positives in my situation so I did (that is how I got my name T2SP - Trying to Stay Positive). There were days when I thought my life was over without my stbx. I didn't want to wake up in the morning because I knew it would be another day with him not around. I lived my life wishing and hoping for the day he would return. I didn't care about anything else. It was all him, him, him.
One day I got so down I decided life wasn't worth living without him. I haven't told many people this story but I want to share it with you. My girls were at their dad's place and I got out my bottle of vodka and started drinking and drinking. (I'm not a heavy drinker so it doesn't take much for me) The more I drank, the more depressed I became. I went into my bedroom closet and got out my stbx's shotgun. I was ready to end things. I wanted things to be over.....
I have a friend who I call my texting friend because we very seldom talk. He is an airline pilot and is very seldom in town and that is the reason we text more than talking. Well, on this day, I sent him a text with only one word on it "Busy?" He called me. He said something told him to call and not just text. If not for that call, I may not be here today. We talked on the phone for 2 hours. He was over 3000 miles away at work but took the time to talk to me. That was my wake up call.
After that, I knew I had something to live for. God had other plans for me. It wasn't my time to go. From then on, I did what I could for me. I have started living again. I go out and have fun. I can do this. My biggest fear was growing old alone. I had a choice of sitting at home feeling sorry for myself which meant I would grow old alone or getting out there and meeting new people and living again. I choose to live again.
I was on anti depessants for 7 years. Yes, 7...but I have been off of them for a little over 3 months and I have never felt better. It is because I choose to be happy again. I'm not saying anything wrong with taking them because they do take the edge off and I am thankful for them when I needed them. But now it is my turn to take over my life. I want to control my own emotions.
I have still had good days and bad days but any day is what we make of them. When you get up in the morning and you tell yourself it is going to be a bad day, then it will. When you wake up always tell yourself today is going to be a great day.
You have a lot of people on here that I have noticed care a lot about you and your situation. They have given up part of their lives to try and help you through your rough times. You need to step up to the plate and show them that you can do it.
Once you start doing for you and seeing how much better you feel, you get addicted to enjoying life again.
I went through limbo for almost 4 years when I finally decided I was worth more than just sitting around waiting for someone else to decide what they wanted to do with their life. I wanted to get out and have fun again. I took control of my life again and no one will ever run my life for me again. I make my decisions. Some may not be great ones but it is my choice.
Whenever you feel you WANT that drink (because we know you don't NEED it) do something fun. Take a walk, call a friend...anything but lift up that bottle. Alcohol is poison. You may think it is helping to ease the pain but all it is doing is prolonging the inevitable. You drink to hide from your problems but when you sober up....BAM the problems are still there.
I come from a family of drinkers and I know how much it can hurt someone. I have seen things in my life that I hope my children never have to see. It is all about the children Frank. You can do this for your children but first, you MUST do it for FRANK!!!
I know you can do this. I haven't read all your posts but the ones I have read recently, you are reaching for help. The help is right in front of you. Grasp it and don't let go. Listen to all these people who care about you.
I would not be where I am today without the support I received from the people I met on here. I'm still meeting more and more of them even though I at the final stages of my divorce. The good thing is I know they will be there for me for a long time.
Frank, wake up and live again!!!
One day I got so down I decided life wasn't worth living without him. I haven't told many people this story but I want to share it with you. My girls were at their dad's place and I got out my bottle of vodka and started drinking and drinking. (I'm not a heavy drinker so it doesn't take much for me) The more I drank, the more depressed I became. I went into my bedroom closet and got out my stbx's shotgun. I was ready to end things. I wanted things to be over.....
Thank you for sharing that with me! I know that pain. The biggest thing that keeps me from going to that place is that I'm not a quitter and I do not want my girls to ever have to go through their lives with that memory of me.
I know life can be better. While I am not looking forward to STBX moving back in to the house I am seeing it as an opportunity to learn how to let her go and not need her, or hate her.
I have a lot of repairs to make on my own life. Today is a 'Brand New Day'
Today could be the start of a brighter, better life. It is what you make of it.
When your stbx moves back in, be yourself. Don't walk on eggshells trying to hard.
Some people find it weird after all I have been through with my stbx but he and I are really good friends now. Don't know how long that will last but for now, it is what I need. It makes the letting go and moving on so much easier.
Mongolian barbeque...
Lord Frank...one of my alltime favorite restaurant experiences.
Out here it's called BD's Mongolian Barbeque. And you're right...save up your hunger if you know you're going there. So you can get the most out of your experience.
Yum...
Bill
I have a lot of repairs to make on my own life. Today is a 'Brand New Day'
_________________________
And that is exactly why I changed my name on this site!!!
Sides...not exactly looking for man love.
Turning over a new leaf are we
You know it sweetie pie.
What are you doing today Frank, what rung on the ladder are you achieving today...and no no lofty incorpreal goals. Real physical ones.
I have a Mongolian bbq behind my house. I am always amazed that I seem to add a good amount of spinach, but after the guy cooks everything, the spinach seems to have mostly disappeared.
Another fun place to go where you watch your food getting cooked is Benihana.
What are you doing today Frank, what rung on the ladder are you achieving today...and no no lofty incorpreal goals. Real physical ones.
Right now I am trying to finish some coding I'm doing for a world famous Amsterdam based beer manufacturer that has to be done in 45 minutes.
Yes, it's stressful.
what are you doing here???
Please don't answer that...at least not for another 45 minutes.
When your stbx moves back in, be yourself. Don't walk on eggshells trying to hard.
Some people find it weird after all I have been through with my stbx but he and I are really good friends now. Don't know how long that will last but for now, it is what I need. It makes the letting go and moving on so much easier.
I'm not even going to 'try' anything. Being myself makes the only sense. I will be as pleasant or as unpleasant as I feel at the time.
No more blaming her for what she's done. No more lack of forgiveness to her or me.
Luckily I have IC session tonight. I can set some clear goals and boundaries.
My anxiety is really high this morning, but that's because of work pressures. They will get better as the days progress.
I am so grateful for all the support I'm getting. It still feels weird because I don't believe I deserve it. I'm trying to remember 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'. I must have 'sowed' a lot of good karma. Thank you all.
38 minutes...
Priorieties Frank. Right? Unless you want to feel like crap for not getting it done. Unless you are done.
We ARE what we do, when it matters.
Frank....just finish your work before Jack blows a gasket.
Just think, once you get yourself back on track you will be able to help others. That is the circle of the DB board. It feels good to be helped but when you help others, it feels so much better.
Work is done. It was stressful. But the client is happy. Other clients not so happy today. I really have my work cut out for me (Notice that I didn't say "I have really f*cked up")
Anxiety levels are through the roof. Somewhere there is a light at the end of this tunnel.
I really have my work cut out for me (Notice that I didn't say "I have really f*cked up")
EXCELLENT!!!
Frank...I just noticed you were in Ventura County CA...I am in Santa Barbara County.
Frank...I just noticed you were in Ventura County CA...I am in Santa Barbara County.
I used to live in Goleta.
Had a great session with counselor.
Will post tomorrow
There are alot of Jack Beans. I just made a new profile...Char Startingover. Nothing on it yet, but adding friends.
There are alot of Jack Beans
How bizarre is that?!
There are alot of Jack Beans
How bizarre is that?!
I know!!! I went there and there were 32 of them.
Aha but we know the original and I think that one is more than enough-lol.
Seriously tho I wonder why, what is the implication do you think or is it nothing more mysterious than lots of Jacks liking beans?
another mystery.
There are alot of Jack Beans. I just made a new profile...Char Startingover. Nothing on it yet, but adding friends.
I added you as a friend
There is only one Jack Beans in alaska
Perhaps she did not know he was IN Alaska, Frank.
His profile here doesn't say it.
So yesterday....
Hey, am I the only one new to Facebook and paranoid about using my real name? I already saw my high school nemesis (cheated with my first real hs bf) asking me to be her friend!! wth?
(...and so what if it was a LONG time ago, like maybe 30 years...STILL....) and I'm pretty sure H will be joining Facebook soooo, how do we join a db group and not advertise it? Oh, and when you talk about computer stuff, talk to me like I'm five years old...fyi)
sorry for the hijack frank, but you are a computer whiz, so...you know, it figures...
j
The DB group on facebook is secret - no one can see that you are in it.
Perhaps she did not know he was IN Alaska, Frank.
His profile here doesn't say it.
It was a hint Amy...
Told my story to Counselor. Without getting too much into the discussion of W's 'motivation' to move back in, which C thinks the 'protect the kids' is just her excuse, that it's more that she didn't like being out of her home and on her own financially.
D18 didn't like that she wasn't getting things 'her way' and if you read into the letter she wrote, it started with her not being able to get a car for her birthday, which in November I had told her I would have the $$$ for one since business was on the way up. In December I was hit with one drama after another, the holidays, and the continuing view of the affair down the street and it went beyond my coping skills.
In her letter she basically threw me under the bus to her mother. ANYTHING she could criticize me on she did. C wondered if it was her manipulating the situation to get W back in the house. One of the comments D18 made a week or so ago was 'I wish mom could come home and fix everything'. So, who knows what she was thinking.
It's water under the bridge.
So regardless of W's or D18's motivations, the real 'breakthrough' was for me.
During the session C watches me talk, body language, tone. She is very intuitive and reads me like a book. In other words I can't lie to her.
So, half way through the session while we were talking about being 'addicted' to pain and punishment and I was recounting some of the past things I've been through with W and others she said
C: Frank, when I look at you as you talk about these things I see pain, but I also see repressed anger. aren't you angry about the things your W has done?
Me: Yeah, I am but I'm mostly hurt.
C: Have you ever been angry with her when your relationship was 'good'?
Me: Yes, there were a lot of things that she did or didn't do that would make me angry. Like she was a stay at home mom and the house was a mess, or she would criticize my parenting, saying I was 'too strict' even though I wasn't. I spent a lot of time resenting being with her because she wouldn't change certain things about our relationship that would have been positive.
C: So did you tell her these things.
Me: Yes, but nothing changed.
C: Did you ever have a real heavy duty argument?
Me: pretty much never. If she pushed me I backed off. On rare occasions when I had been drinking I would express my anger but I didn't yell.
C: So, in all the years you have been with her you never held her accountable for anything she did that you didn't like or that was bad for your marriage? She has never had to change or grow up? But she hasn't had any problem telling you that she doesn't like things you do. She says you are an alcoholic and yet you don't get angry at her and tell her that may be true, but she finds herself in bed with other men when she doesn't like how the marriage is going.
C: Instead, you absorb the criticism and get nothing but pain. Pain is anger turned inward. Frank, you have been holding on to YEARS of anger that you've never expressed. So you turn it into hurt until you medicate and make your life worse. Not just at W but at a lot of people. It's time for you to let it out.
C: When W is living with you I would make it clear to her that you don't want this and that she needs to leave you alone so you can be productive. And from now on tell her the God's honest truth in any discussion that isn't about legal things. Get angry! Don't be a jerk but be firm and express it.
C: Frank, Lorri has had a 'goose that lays golden eggs' and she still wants you to take care of things. Yet she and even your Daughters don't do anything for that gooses mental and emotional health. You've taught them that Frank will take care of things. Frank will give them whatever they ask for. And when you don't, they feel unsafe and panic. W simply waits for you to 'get it together' and when you can't she goes after other men.
So, I thought about everything. I AM angry. I do NOT express it most of the time. Why?
So C got out her 'Codependent' worksheet and asked a few questions. "Does your self esteem come from pleasing others?" "Do you stay in a relationship with someone even though you disagree with their morals and values?" "Are you afraid to express yourself honestly because you might lose the other person?"
Yes, yes, and yes.
So, I'm ANGRY. And I'm going to be truthful with STBX whenever she says or does anything to make me angry. Because, as a MAN I need to leave my little boy childish fears behind me. I have nothing to lose since W wants a divorce, and everything to gain.
All these years I've been holding it in. Like I'm not worthy of being angry. It's become hurt and despair and anxiety and eventually self medication. This is BS. W is an adulterous child who has betrayed me, whined about her life and put herself before her family.
I've let too many people take advantage of me. Too f'ing many. I've helped lot's of other people get wealthy with my skills but my life has fallen apart.
I'm angry.
The DB group on facebook is secret - no one can see that you are in it.
To join the group someone has to invite you. LIke AmyC said, it's secret.
Sounds like you had a good session today, Frank.
So what do you do next?
That's a real question btw...are you supposed to somehow let go of all the old anger or are you just going to learn ways to express it in a healthy manner from here on out?
Knowing the problem (whichever one it may be) isn't typically your problem. It's the "doing something about" it that trips you up so what happens from here?
Do you go back next week or do you have to wait another month?
Personally...why join that group at all? DB is private and personal here. FB, to me, seems like a place to explore the real world in a real way..reconnect with friends..etc. Why DB 'in public' when you can do it here in private?
Catching up frank.
FIB
Read above frank..back to the blue book. Anger...needs to be expressed...somehow. Let it out....somehow...Gray.
FIB
Why DB 'in public' when you can do it here in private?
No one is DBing in public there, FIB.
In fact, not much happens there at all that I have seen but it serves as a way to find a lot of the people from here that have left..IF someone finds YOU that is, and invites you to the group. It's kinda ass-backwards but the idea behind it is good.
"Loneliness expresses the pain of being alone and
solitude expresses the glory of being alone."
- Paul Tillich
The aloneness is the same whether we're suffering loneliness or enjoying solitude. The magical difference is in our attitude toward ourselves.
FIB
HI Amy...I meant..why join DB on Facebook? There is a DB site on FB. F
Hey there 25,
I am on FB too!!
HI Amy...I meant..why join DB on Facebook? There is a DB site on FB. F
the DB site on FB is owned by Michelle and is not private. The DB GROUP is owned by some of us and is private. It's hardly used and on the public areas nobody posts DB related stuff to each other.
So what do you do next?
That's a real question btw...are you supposed to somehow let go of all the old anger or are you just going to learn ways to express it in a healthy manner from here on out?
Knowing the problem (whichever one it may be) isn't typically your problem. It's the "doing something about" it that trips you up so what happens from here?
Express it in a healthy manner. I have nothing to lose any more. And a lot of hurt that is really anger turned inward.
On another note, W E-Mailed me a computer users joke last night. she is strange.
No she's not Frank, she isn't strange or weird, or even baffling.
She always...always always always...she always throws you a bone when she thinks you're upset and it fu cks you up seeking some deeper meaning.
On another note, W E-Mailed me a computer users joke last night. she is strange
.
Why is it that whenever she makes any attempt at being friendly you automatically call her a name or assume that she is strange or wierd or up to something.
You have to stop this behaviour ASAP!
NEGATIVITY BREEDS NEGATIVITY
Or you could just tell her to stop sending you the cute little ditties.
In her world there is nothing contradictory about being an adultress, wanting a divorce, and exchanging humorous emails as though you were best buds.
Tell her to stop if you want her to stop.
Otherwise, read them, laugh if they're funny, and move on. Not every action is filled with deep meaning.
And trying to explain the actions of someone who's decision-making ability is clearly way flawed is a cheeseless tunnel of the highest order.
Bill
I love you Bill, and that's ok cause I think I could take Deb in a fight.
On another note, W E-Mailed me a computer users joke last night. she is strange.
SPAM her
She always...always always always...she always throws you a bone when she thinks you're upset and it fu cks you up seeking some deeper meaning.
Maybe the 'deeper meaning' is that she throws me a 'bone' to 'f me up'. I'm not looking for a deeper meaning though. I'm angry and I'm going to feed that anger.
On another note, W E-Mailed me a computer users joke last night. she is strange.
SPAM her
Oh that is so immature.
On another note, W E-Mailed me a computer users joke last night. she is strange.
SPAM her
Oh that is so immature.
I have some funny ones about MLC and infidelity if you would like to share those with her......
Hey Frank, feed that anger.
Just don't become a future TV movie of the week, ok?
Bill
Hey Frank, feed that anger.
Just don't become a future TV movie of the week, ok?
Bill
No problem. There's a difference between anger and rage.
Why are you angry?
Honestly, do you have a reason?
Why are you angry?
Honestly, do you have a reason?
Yes. I have been betrayed, my kids have been betrayed, I work as hard as I can while in pain and get no appreciation. Yet I still punish myself instead of expressing my anger when events come up. I can go back 10 or more years to all kinds of events with all kinds of people where I didn't express my anger. Instead I took on blame.
I am angry. Not hurt. Angry. No, I'm not sitting here festering over it. I'm just saying that I choose to push the hurt outward so it can be the anger that it was originally. Then, when the appropriate times come up I CAN express it. I can be myself, someone who is allowed to get angry.
Instead of the little boy who wasn't allowed to express his anger.
I have some funny ones about MLC and infidelity if you would like to share those with her......
Hmm, would that be considered harassment or just bad taste?
It would be very interesting to see the response I would get.....
Frank,
I totally hear what you are saying...
I am glad you are expressing yourself.
Yes. I have been betrayed, my kids have been betrayed, I work as hard as I can while in pain and get no appreciation.
But did something happen today?
Hi Frank!
I seem to have alot of anger from being betrayed as well. Trying to change that anger into acceptance. I am sick of being angry and hurt and the reality is its not changing the situation. I am the only one hurting and angry.
I disagree Startingover, right now anything that moves Frank forward is a good thing, if it is anger then so be it, as long as he doesn't wallow.
Reading about this anger kind of reminded me of this great scene...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WINDtlPXmmEI went through some feelings of anger myself. It was always a relief to hit the heavy bag or go to a batting cage and try to hit the covers off some baseballs, which all coincidently were named Nui (my X's name). Just dont go golfing when you are mad - slicing and hooking will only make you more mad!
Came across this passage while reading a Stephen King book the boys got me for Christmas. I suppose it doesn't fit perfectly with the current state of your situation Frank, but it rang so true to me.
A Dad and his daughter. Talking to each other, about a year after the Mom divorced the Dad.
Life does not have to end.
“Daddy, was marrying Mom a mistake you made? That she made? Or was it just an accident?”
“It wasn’t an accident and it wasn’t a mistake. Twenty-four good years, two fine daughters, and we’re still talking. It wasn’t a mistake Illy.”
“You wouldn’t change it?”
People kept asking me that question. “No.”
“If you could go back…would you?”
I paused, but not long. Sometimes there’s no time to decide what’s the best answer. Sometimes you can only give the true answer. “No, honey.”
“Okay. But I miss you, Dad.”
“I miss you, too.”
“Sometimes I miss the old times, too. When things were less complicated.” She paused. I could have spoken – wanted to – but kept silent. Sometimes silence is best. “Dad, do people ever deserve second chances?”
I thought of my own second chance. How I had survived an accident that should have killed me. And I was doing more than just hanging out, it seemed. I felt a rush of gratitude. “All the time.”
(from Duma Key, by Stephen King)
Blessings,
Bill
But did something happen today?
not really. W sent me that email with the geek joke. So what?
I seem to have alot of anger from being betrayed as well. Trying to change that anger into acceptance. I am sick of being angry and hurt and the reality is its not changing the situation. I am the only one hurting and angry.
Which is why I want to be 'angry' without being 'vindictive'. I'm not 'angry' at her as much as I am angry at myself for not protecting ME. Not expressing ME.
This is not about her, or my anger AT her. It's about my anger in general and how I have suppressed it and turned it inward to become hurt and pain.
It's MY anger. MINE.
If W chooses to push my buttons in the yet to be defined 'future' then I will allow myself to be angry. No eggshells, just me.
The past is what it is.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
Thanks
frank
Uh oh...I feel a big 2 x 4 coming....First, has your c ever met your w, or seen the two of you together? Maybe I misunderstood you, but...
Why feed the anger? What does that mean?
How are you HEALING from years of stuff that has nothing to do with w? Like your childhood issues we discussed, and your professional experience (which you saw as negative but I saw differently, fyi) that are still haunting you to this day, and you can't dump it all on your w, so what's the "feeding" part thing? Haven't you been feeding negatives for a long time already, while starving the positives in your life by either not seeing them, taking them for granted or seeing them negatively, among other things?
Although I still see the w being around as an opportunity for you to model some healthy behaviors now with all the anger talk, I worry that you're just getting a new angle on victimhood.
Like now instead of writhing in self loathing, it'll be "justifiable anger" and that cannot be expressed in a healthy way if you never have done it before now. I mean, you need some TOOLS for that before you drop a ton of bricks on her head and expect something positive to come from it. In fact, from the sounds of it, you could be setting yourself and your d's up for a big fall.
Please allow me to play devils advocate okay? Um, I never met your w, But if we can't see things from the other spouses Point of View, we're doomed...so fwiw, let's try seeing it a diff way for two minutes.
Bear with me now....maybe your w thinks the following:
You were both unhappy in the M, and she knew it, even if you didn't. YOU have said there were legit issues & you could have treated her better. These problems occur to some extent in all M's, but you yourself felt that she had some points to make and you wanted to make changes. You said you "didn't
handle some things well", but you are vague as to what that means)
But in HER mind, SHE has communicated with you about her unmet needs, hinted and complained for years but you refused to listen or change....So She drops the bomb and THEN you make some changes, and want her back and promise things will be better, so she dumps OM and returns to you....but ooops, YOU DID NOT CHANGE, you fooled her, or lied to get her back, or reverted or "lost it", or whatever, and she does what she does, which is to LEAVE b/c that is what got your attention before....so again, YOU say, "Stop! Let's try again, I will change and we'll be better now"...etc so SHE COMES BACK to "work on things"...: and gives you another chance...BUT you blow it again in some (never disclosed to me) way...so she's DONE.
She leaves and finds OM ( OR finds OM and then leaves, whatever, remember we're thinking like HER for one more minute) and she wants out. She isn't pushing for the moon financially, or legally, and in fact, she takes the "moral/legal high road" and says she wants NOTHING from you financially, no alimony asked, no "half the assets, she says she won't fight for half the house, you keep the house, AND keep physical custody of the girlsf ... **
But instead of being at peace with her simple desire to move on in her life, this somehow hurts you MORE, b/c you interpret it as meaning you are so undesirable she'll pay a FEE to get rid of you in her life....this puzzles her and makes her think, "F must like being a victim...which makes me (her), the victimizer" and that is not an appealing or attractive experience for her. Time passes and you get very sad and bitter, and when you are asked if your w's happiness is a good thing, you are silent and angry at the question your d asked. So your d does think you are becoming bitter. This is not attractive to your w and is affecting your R's with the girls.
Then Your d's call her and write a note to both of you. THey send a red flare about your behavior that does NOT JUST deal with drinking, but also the depression you express to us and them, that goes with it. One or both said that she "wants her mom home to fix things" b/c in their eyes, YOU / and or "the family," are broken...
So your w chooses for WHATEVER REASON...BELIEVE ME - IN HER MIND, IT'S A NOBLE ONE, and none of us know her and none of us is telepathic, but she is coming back into the house (which you have WANTED to have happen, under your terms I guess, but somehow now it's your worst nightmare....)
Okay, back to earth. Now that I've played "her" advocate, let me say that there seem to be some points in there worth considering. Seriously considering. Frank, you said that your d hugged you for a record 4 times the other day, b/c she saw some positive changes in you. Didn't you tell the c any of that? If so, I cannot see why suddenly she is saying that you should show more anger...
Here's my other fear.
Thanks to the "new anger" you want to "feed", this won't be the opportunity for the two positives I hoped for; i.e., 1) Ideally, the restoration of the M, and or, 2) the way you are viewed by your daughters, and how you make them feel about themselves, and you, and men in general. You are the role model of men for them.
Instead, there will be one big fat battle after another that your d's will have to watch --- and YET AGAIN, in your d's eyes, it'll be your fault when your wife walks out again, if you don't handle it well.
SO before you embrace the "I"M ANGRY!" mantra too much and pound your chest,
take a deep breath and decide how you are going to ACT on this anger...and where it precisely belongs. B/C guess what? Some of it belongs to you and you alone. (Don't pout, it's that way for all of us. We all screw things up and have regrets and want to slap our own faces for making the same mistake twice, or 43 times, etc. )
Some of it belongs to people who are dead, or no longer around, like your parents, whom you felt were very deficient in raising you.
That anger does not belong to your w or d's. Naturally, many of us are faced with this; I'm was still very upset at my father long after I had moved out and married.
But that affected how I treated my h at times, and how I had certain buttons people could push without knowing, b/c they were hidden from them. Sometimes I myself couldn't understand why a comment would trigger such a hot reaction on my end. A lot of it was anger at my dad and how he treated us when we were growing up, his drinking, etc. so I worked on forgiving him and getting help for a lot of years, while getting T and going to a workshop. I did that for my life, not his. With parentally inflicted pain, especially if they are no longer around,
You really only have 2 options that are healthy, forgive them BY LETTING GO, or cling to it and blame them endlessly for things that are totally unchangeable. Talk about useless, misplaced anger...and btw, when my dad was on his deathbed and asked for forgiveness, I gave it to him, and I meant every word b/c I had prepared myself for so long. It was not an instant experience for me, UNTIL that moment when he sincerely wanted forgiveness; and for me, it was the single most holy moment in my life. Not unlike giving birth in the sense that I knew a seawave of change had occurred in my soul. A huge weight was lifted off my shoulders, and I think, his too.
You spoke of anger at your wife that you say was not expressed, but I question that statement. I think it was expressed, just not as direct anger. I don't know, but perhaps you get a bit passive aggressive or conflict avoidant (my h is really conflict avoidant and it has NOT helped us at all)
Or maybe you showed your anger by withdrawing, checking out or drinking or whatever you call it, but what were YOU talking about when you said you "didn't handle things well"? You said it. What does that mean? What would your wife say it meant?
As for anger at her for the A, (discuss the A later) and having a messy house and being a sahm, I can only say hey, I'm a slob. But staying at home for some years, was a sacrifice for ME, not just a privilege that I'm grateful for and having to say "thanks to h' for. It was work, important work to be sure, but still, I don't recall my h ever saying "thanks" to ME....it was all about how he was working and earning money, so, I have strong feelings about that. I derailed my own career b/c I thought it was important to have a parent at home and h had a commitment to the military I did not, AND he usually made more money than I did, and even if he didn't, he loves his work. But make no mistake, though I'm happy & grateful that he enabled me to do so, I'm also aware of what I gave up, and it should matter too.
Having a messy house was normal to me, with 3 kids at home. I spent my time with them, not cleaning around them. We finally hired a housekeeper when we could afford to, and reduced marital fighting by about 75%. (I don't want to be a maid. Pardon me if that sounds snobby but we lived below the poverty line for the first 6 years of our M and not much above that until 1995 at which time h finally finished all his training and we magically became a wealthy couple. I felt it was time to make life easier...it was a Godsend and I kicked myself for not doing it sooner.
So Frank, how is the house now that your w is gone and it's just you and d's? Do you do the housework now? If you have a good housekeeper, CALL ME...
As to the Car and Your Daughter...
(SIDENOTE - Frank, I never saw the actual note your d wrote, so I only know the parts you revealed before. BUT I'm intuitively (stubbornly?? ) feeling that it is still not as big a deal to me/her for the reasons you believe. I think a car is freedom and coolness to an 18 y'o for SURE....and you did promise it, so she's disappointed and that part is normal.
But suppose you take another point of view for a minute -- what if it looks like you are saying "''I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN YOU A CAR...BUT EVIL W LEFT ME, AND SO THERE IS NO MONEY, AND EVEN IF THERE WERE, I CAN'T HANDLE HER LEAVING ME, AND SO....NO CAR..... (even though you are not paying your w anything and to your d, the issues seem unrelated). You seem to be suggesting that your wife leaving is related to the money issues, but then elsewhere you say it's the economy and or, that you "didn't handle it well".
More important, I think, is that the car and your promise to get her one, symbolizes another dream your d had, and another promise /assumption/expectation of an intact family and home. that ALL children have, that got yanked out from under her for reasons beyond her control. That's a tough lesson for a kid. What about that, Frank?
{{{{and did I read somewhere that you also told her there is no money for her college? IF so, we'll talk. There are community colleges here. But the application process and essays are time consuming and REQUIRE parental involvement. I did my kids essays with them, and visited the prospective colleges. For d19, h was gone, so he missed the entire experience and never visited the colleges with them ahead of time and too bad for HIM...what a lovely experience I had and would not trade it for anything--Frankd, have YOU taken her to visit any campuses? Okay, push college aside for now, we'll touch that topic later as I and many others here have gone thru the whole shebang of helping the kids get it done, and it is time consuming but mandatory. But Frank, ask yourself something. You mentioned that you didn't finish college and if I heard right, you blamed your parents for that. (I'm not agreeing that it was their fault as you could have gone later) But if you drop the ball on this and tell her "oops, W left, or whatever, and "Can't go to college", I mean, won't it feel like YOU repeated exactly what your parents did to you, with your own d's? How is that going to feel?..
I'll help you with the college questions if you like as i just finished with two kids and my niece as well (her dad, my bil, died in September and my sister is AWOL emotionally, so my niece asked me to help her and I did and it's pretty fun if you have the right attitude).
Food for thought.
j-
Uh oh...I feel a big 2 x 4 coming....First, has your c ever met your w, or seen the two of you together? Maybe I misunderstood you, but...
Why feed the anger? What does that mean?
How are you HEALING from years of stuff that has nothing to do with w? Like your childhood issues we discussed, and your professional experience (which you saw as negative but I saw differently, fyi) that are still haunting you to this day, and you can't dump it all on your w, so what's the "feeding" part thing? Haven't you been feeding negatives for a long time already, while starving the positives in your life by either not seeing them, taking them for granted or seeing them negatively, among other things?
Yes, C has been there and knows W, she was instrumental in our reconciliation 3 years ago after W's affair and crash, she knows how much I love W. She only want's the best for me.
The concept of my 'anger' is centered around the fact that I give everyone a pass when they do things I don't like, and I internalize it as me being 'wrong' or 'bad'. Instead, it's unexpressed anger. It doesn't mean I need to start running around being angry, but instead when I am being wronged I need to EXPRESS it, instead of internalizing it as if I am 'bad'.
So, I have been hurting for months now. When I should have been angry.
So when I say "I am angry" what I am saying is that instead of HURTING I'm reflecting it outward as anger. And if W talks to me about MY shortcomings I sure as hell will tell her about HER's and how they have affected me. Not in a mean way, but in an honest way.
Get it?
So when I say "I am angry" what I am saying is that instead of HURTING I'm reflecting it outward as anger. And if W talks to me about MY shortcomings I sure as hell will tell her about HER's and how they have affected me. Not in a mean way, but in an honest way.
Excellent!
Just remember to express but dont defend your feelings.
Excellent!
Just remember to express but dont defend your feelings.
Exactly.
Frank,
yes I think I get it fine. You know how literal I get with wording. And I do hope you get the value of my playing "L" and taking the WAS's position sometimes b/c usually it's enlightening even when not "right". Once when I told mc I felt I had to stay at home more, b/c h's job made him increasingly AWOL from kids/home and me.
Later I heard h say to mc, (not knowing my view) that HE felt he "HAD to work MORE" b/c I was staying at home with the kids (h's words were "not working anymore")...so okay, um, chicken or the egg right?
Hindsight shows he probably had a point. We both did. And I can wax on about how superior my motives were, blah blah blah. But what counted wasn't who was exactly accurate, but that we actually viewed the same events from a totally different perspective and there was at least SOME truth/validity to his views and mine. Kind of scary. Not quite the same as a self serving recollection of an A, but the point is still there. Make sense?
Besides, where are we ever going to get our M's (or R"s w/ kids) if we- cannot put ourselves in their shoes? Hard to do sometimes...
And when we are hurt or left behind, well..."it sure don't feel like a time when ah give a sh-- bout what HE's been thru iffen you know wat i mean"...
Oh how I hate memories of the times I spent going around & around the loop in my brain about what h was doing, the extreme injustice of it, the why why why??? not just why me? But why period? Why miss out on the girls lives? Why miss every "Back To School" Night? Never could get it, and never will. You know what? I ACCEPT THAT NOW, or at least I'm getting there. I mean, I "get" that I probably won't ever "get" what he was doing/thinking. He loves the kids and has deep regrets but is averse as hell to talk about those regrets. So, it's all about 'what now?" Besides, the energy used looping around, took away from my d's time, and my "me" time, and moving forward...
I do miss him. He's coming back in 2 weeks and it'll be good to have him around with some consistency to get used to each other again. (Crossing fingers about his mom's PET Scan for cancer return...)
In the Navy the guys who go out for long times in subs, are de-briefed when they return to home port. They're told to "ease back into the family" and not give orders or take charge of anything for WEEKS (depending on how long gone) and try to wait until invited to do so, or at least wait or some time. The guys who followed that advice, and treasured their wive's contributions--holding the fort down while he was gone, child care, managing more or less fine without them, (though missing them!) those M's made it through alright. It's surprising when you consider their lifestyles but a lot of them make it work well. Guess it'd be nice if WAS's got the debriefing too.
Well, I've had a long day...so I gotta go check on one other thread and sleep...
night frank and try to have a good one.
j-
You took a fork in the road. The footsteps you see ahead of you are mine.
I disagree with 25 on this. I am happy to see you angry.
When we are hurt, physically we respond with pain. It is always the first response b/c it is instinctive. The pain tells us to do something. Take your hand off the hot stove or go see our doctor friend FIB.
When we are hurt, emotionally we respond with anger. That is always the first response b/c it too is instinctive. We learned it back in the cave man era when giant man-eating flyings squirrels decended upon us. To beat them off, we felt anger. The anger tells us to do something.
So anger is trying to point the way. We can listen or not.
At first, you and I ignored it. Pain is not anger turned inward; depression is anger turned inward. Depression fueled by drink. It not only supressed our anger, but it supressed our view of the reality about us. Like taking a pain pill rather than seeing the doctor.
And when you are depressed, the blame is all internal.
That is where you have been, as I was (and am to a degree).
In my case, the next step was hate. I realize now it was not hate at all, just added anger. But the added anger allowed me to focus not only on me, but on her and the environment around me. That was a major step. I remember when folks here, including you
told me to lose the anger. But I am glad I did not. The added anger was a signal to also look at her, look for the first time. My perfect, loving W was not the perfect person after all. And use that info to help me fix what I need to fix in me.
Like the horror story where Dorian Gray's portrait changes for the worst yet he appears the same, I was forced to look at my W's portrait and it was hard to look at. It still is; I still turn away. Of all the things left to do, the hardest for me is to accept, really accept, that my former soulmate did what she did and how a loving person and mother would break up a family. How her portrait showed me that if the clock were turned back that I should have not seeked her out, even as a friend.
But she too is human. This also told me that if we ever did get back together, what I would need to accept and forgive in her and myself to make a R work.
I still do not have my arms around this.
The anger helped me work through this to the point where the anger is almost gone and acceptance is within reach. If you are angry frank, it only means you have emotional work to do. Yes, you "get it" logically as I did, but the anger you feel tells you that you don't get it emotionally yet.
From your C's discussions, I believe that you will turn that corner. The anger is the signal to do something and to look at the whole picture objectively.
As men, we have work to do to work on us. But rather than react to our anger with depression or aggression (we have never spoken but from your words I doubt that is a problem for you), we take skillful charge of the situation.
After my "hate" period when my anger peaked, I finally began to see things in a different light. I learned to set and enforce boundaries. I cannot emphasize how important that is.
I am also now learning that her portrait on the wall is not the whole story either. The more I accept, the better I feel. Acceptance leads to compassion and compassion to forgivensss.
I still have work to do, as you can see.
I warn you, it takes time to process these emotions. To see the reality around you clearly. To see the real portrait behind the people. To see that you are not the total blame and that you can reject being a doormat for others or a co-dependent.
Expect the backslides, especially when W moves back in.
You took a new road frank. Anger is telling you that you have work to do.
And you will do it. You will do fine.
Strength and Honor.
Jeff,
My perfect, loving W was not the perfect person after all. And use that info to help me fix what I need to fix in me.
I cannot agree more with this statement. This, and other things you said, is exactly the process I had to go through to heal myself. Or, begin healing. It is an ongoing process. It is a wonderful feeling when you can make it to the "compassion" stage.
Very insightful.
Thank you.
Spitty
My perfect, loving W was not the perfect person after all. And use that info to help me fix what I need to fix in me.
I am sorry, and I am not wanting to start any crap, but I am still so confused as to the anger and betrayal issue here.
It is not anyone's Spouse's responsibility to be the fix-it person in our lives.
We can blame all we want if we feel they are not meeting our needs, but if are not communicating what it is we want then how is it their fault?
And not to pick on anyone, but Frank chose to drink and to shut his wife out when his business failed and he was depressed.
She could no longer handle the lonliness either, because she was also shut out of Frank's life and sought comfort in someone else's arms.
I am NOT by any means saying that she was correct in her bad choices, but she was also pushed into this choice.
Both of them are
equally to blame for the demise of the Marriage.
And now, when she wants to try and be responsible and help out because Frank is in deep doo-doo, everyone finds fault with her motives, etc, and makes wise arse cracks about her email jokes, etc.
I am sorry, and I am ready for the 2X4's, but none of this is helping Frank, it only feeds into the anger and self pity.
depression is anger turned inward. Depression fueled by drink. It not only supressed our anger, but it supressed our view of the reality about us. Like taking a pain pill rather than seeing the doctor.
And when you are depressed, the blame is all internal.
I agreeThat is where you have been, as I was (and am to a degree).
In my case, the next step was hate. I realize now it was not hate at all, just added anger. But the added anger allowed me to focus not only on me, but on her and the environment around me. That was a major step. I remember when folks here, including you
told me to lose the anger. But I am glad I did not
Then you were told, or chose to do, the opposite of what the DB coaches saidto me OR, you did not show it to her. My DB coach was adamant about "Losing the anger in front of the WAS" or you'll fuel their reasons/rationalizations for leaving (ie 'she's a bitch and I was right to leave, she just proved it, blah blah blah)...for ME, losing the anger in front of h enabled us to converse...and later, helped me get a life b/c it was consuming me. Somehow, maybe, we are playing with semantics here.... The added anger was a signal to also look at her, look for the first time. My perfect, loving W was not the perfect person after all. And use that info to help me fix what I need to fix in me.
Interesting...Like the horror story where Dorian Gray's portrait changes for the worst yet he appears the same, I was forced to look at my W's portrait and it was hard to look at. It still is; I still turn away. Of all the things left to do, the hardest for me is to accept, really accept, that my former soulmate did what she did and how a loving person and mother would break up a family. How her portrait showed me that if the clock were turned back that I should have not seeked her out, even as a friend.
But she too is human. This also told me that if we ever did get back together, what I would need to accept and forgive in her and myself to make a R work.
I still do not have my arms around this.
Yes this is HARD. How could H be the man I thought he was, and also be really selfish? and deceitful and be "him"? I struggled with that a long time and sometimes still do. One note, suppose h is a selfish person at times. Or in general even. Does that fault of his MANDATE that I divorce him? I dont' think so. His career, fighter pilots like my brother, surgeons, trial lawyers, often have an air of cockiness that you WANT in their professions, and can also be self centered too...so, is it a flaw or a trait? And what do we do with it?The anger helped me work through this to the point where the anger is almost gone and acceptance is within reach. If you are angry frank, it only means you have emotional work to do. Yes, you "get it" logically as I did, but the anger you feel tells you that you don't get it emotionally yet.
From your C's discussions, I believe that you will turn that corner. The anger is the signal to do something and to
look at the whole picture objectively.
AmenAs men, we have work to do to work on us. But rather than react to our anger with depression or aggression (we have never spoken but from your words I doubt that is a problem for you), we take skillful charge of the situation.
Don't know what that means, I'm not a man. It's too manly for me...
After my "hate" period when my anger peaked, I finally began to see things in a different light. I learned to set and enforce boundaries. I cannot emphasize how important that is.
healthy Boundaries clearly expressed...mandatory.I am also now learning that her portrait on the wall is not the whole story either. The more I accept, the better I feel. Acceptance leads to compassion and compassion to forgivensss.
I still have work to do, as you can see.
Beautiful. Yes.I warn you, it takes time to process these emotions. To see the reality around you clearly. To see the real portrait behind the people. To see that you are not the total blame and that you can reject being a doormat for others or a co-dependent.
Expect the backslides, especially when W moves back in.
You took a new road frank. Anger is telling you that you have work to do.
And you will do it. You will do fine.
Okay, I think I get it. But if someone hasn't ever really "expressed anger" before, (whatever that means and I still say it got expressed, just not in a healthy way), I hate the idea of springing on w now, at this time. It's dicey. I wish I knew Frank had the tools to know healthy ways of expressing anger and when it's well targeted. And what about the girls? Strength and Honor.
I am NOT by any means saying that she was correct in her bad choices, but she was also pushed into this choice.
I'm ok with most of this, but I call BS on this line.
No one pushed her into anything. Just as no one pushed Frank to drink. We make our choices. Frank has to own his, and his wife sure as heck needs to own hers.
He has every right to be angry with her. And I'm sure she has some right to be angry with him too.
I think Frank has simply been getting at the fact that he has far too often suppressed his anger in situations where people have treated him wrongly. Seems to me that his Counselor is trying to help him see that he needs to FEEL what he feels and deal with it, rather than allowing it to fester and send him to alternate methods of dealing with the issues.
Bill
Again Bill, we can agree to disagree.......
If a person is weak, then they will fall.
Frank is weak.
Lori is weak.
Go read the WAW forum, and see where I get my information from.
Lonliness, feeling ignored, being shut out, the list goes on.
In many ways, Women are much weaker then Men.
Maybe this has something to do with that whole Alpha Male thing...
That is what we want, yet we also want a Gentle Warrior (Ever read that book?)
There are many Women, even on this forum who just want some attention from their Husband's, and eventually they find someone else to meet their emotional needs.
Frank wallows, I could post my redundant, self pity, anger at self, self destructive, post again...
Frank had been asking how I got to the point of not caring, and I told him anger. Anger motivated me, anger at her, and at myself.
I did not use that anger destructively, nothing got broken, but it fueled me to move on and not fall for any of he BS lame and weak attempts to reach out to me. "Did you get that email I sent you about reading books?"
I simply used it to get past her and move along.
So when I say to Frank harness your anger, I mean it. ANGER, ladies and gents, is a tool. You can use it in a smart manner.
Frank right now is getting a ton of advice, some the same, some conflicting, and you would have to not have read Frank in a while to figure out that Frank is sitting there not knowing who to please. Cycling all the information.
Instead of typing about what he is going to do...tomorrow, but really maybe never, he needs to move in a direction, and right now ANY decision is better than sitting there not making a decision if just for his self esteem.
The answer to the question was: I deleted both emails without responding.
I talk Alpha to Frank because it is something he desperately wanted to be or to buy into. Aplha's are a pack concept, it doesn't work well in a marriage. But being a strong well balanced man is and being an alpha at least provides a part of that, some is more than none.
deleted
because it doesn't help.
Seems like the adult thing to do.......
But many don't.
Adultery is wrong, I will never go against that train of thought, BUT I also understand why it happens.
And I do not believe it has anything to do with sex, but rather the filling of the emotional void that is in their lives.
Bill,
There was no reason to delete your post........
Jack,
Your advice had been the advice I have needed to take the most. When you first told me about the anger I took it the wrong way and tried to punish W last year. So wrong.
And I know Alpha Male better than anyone. I WAS Alpha Male in the past. As one of my friends said years ago "You've always been someone who was ready to take the tiger by it's tail and pull".
Seriously. I have started 3 companies that were all successful with just my brain power. I have been dirt poor and well off.
And I have wallowed. Way way too long.
I'm trying to get a handle on focusing my anger in a good way. And expressing it.
I agree with Bworl - adultery is inexcusable. I agree with brandnewday that women and men who are weak will find their drug of choice - an affair, alcohol, whatever, to fill that empty space inside.
We all have our issues. And we all have the power to change.
And I'm angry.
What's interesting here is that bnd and I are women and we are reacting much more in one direction than some of you. Neither she nor I have met frank's w, but if I'm not mistaken we have both spoken with him, and we both somehow feel the W is being blamed for a whole lot that doesn't belong to her alone.
Neither of us has cheated and we both say A is wrong. And yet there is something that we both are sort of trying to say that bugs you guys. Can't put my finger on it. But I feel as if Frankd has some cognitive dissonance; saying what he thinks he should say, or should do or feel but then it's not at all what he does, and maybe isn't actually what he intends to do even as he's writing it...am I making any sense here?
Hmmm, mars and venus?
( j )
I think Frank has simply been getting at the fact that he has far too often suppressed his anger in situations where people have treated him wrongly. Seems to me that his Counselor is trying to help him see that he needs to FEEL what he feels and deal with it, rather than allowing it to fester and send him to alternate methods of dealing with the issues.
That is exactly it.
But I feel as if Frankd has some cognitive dissonance; saying what he thinks he should say, or should do or feel but then it's not at all what he does, and maybe isn't actually what he intends to do even as he's writing it...am I making any sense here?
My intentions are to do what I say I need to do. Too often it's 2 steps forward, one step back.
which also means expressing anger in a healthy way...correct?
Let's face it, as the child of an alcoholic, (i HATE that label, but like I said, it saves time, except when I then tell you how much I hate the label...anyhow...)
SO, I was terrified of my dad when he got angry, justifiably or not. In fact it was worse when he had a real reason b/c even when he was sober, since he was a "dry alcoholic" (see my past posts if you don't know what I use those terms for)
and never got healthy tools for expressing anger or any negative emotions, until much later in life, he'd "lose it." And lose it big. The whole neighborhood would hear him, or he'd say things so below the belt they' make your hair curl and he would have been banned from this site.
When my dad got angry, he hurt people, emotionally or physically or both. Period. He didn't have the tools...
So yeah, I get afraid when Frankd says he wants to be angry...and you guys egg him on as if you know what it'll mean for his daughters. Sorry, but that's my take on it.
( j )
25 years.
: )
I agree with you. It's not all her fault.
Here is why I think it is bad for Frank.
Frank already punishes himself WAY in excess of his guilt. Like he likes it, makes me worry about him actually like some neurological problem, like cutting oneself.
Frank already holds Lorri on a pedestal, and ANY time he starts talking positive about her. He punishes himself again. Even if he starts defending her.
From my point of view, its like pouring sugar into his gas tank to get him moving if he is trying to move forward by being angry.
Some might not like this anger talk, but tell me, you like this side of Frank that doesn't do anything but whine without any action? No offense Frank.
I think defending Lorri is counter productive. Lets get Frank to B before we tackle G, right?
Frank,
Have I ever said hit your girls, your wife, or yell at them, scream and throw things?
Assumptions...are bad.
Frank,
Have I ever said hit your girls, your wife, or yell at them, scream and throw things?
Of course not, nor would I ever do such things.
Here is my morning 'anger' with D18. She was complaining about the dishes piled on the counter and the house being generally messy. She doesn't lift a finger unless I TELL her to.
So, instead of me just thinking I'm a bad housekeeper I told her that she is quite capable of cleaning and I'm angry when she dumps it on me as if I'm supposed to do everything. She replies that she does clean when I ASK her to. But I don't ask her to so she doesn't do anything.
Basically, it's my fault. And it was making me angry. I told her that she is quite old enough to make decisions to actually help around the house. And I am the one who does all the work to keep us housed and fed and she and her sister could take some responsibility.
After some more back and forth she suggested making a chore list and enforcing it. I agreed.
In the past I would internalized this and back off, thinking I was being a jerk.
BND and 25 - no reason for a 2X4.
You are confusing anger with aggression. Anger is telling you that something is wrong. It is a response to a hurt. It is part of the healing process that is described elsewhere on this site and other sites as one of the stages you go through before you hit acceptance.
To deny your anger is to deny the healing process.
Aggression is seldom very good as 25 posted. The DB coaches are correct that you don't show aggression towards W. That is "little boy" behavior. Just as important is the opposite of aggression (active), depression (passive). My post is to tell Frank and others that it is okay to use anger to get out of the passive - aggressive frame of mind.
Sort of along the lines that "I am fed up and I ain't going to take it anymore".
I second what Jack wrote above; he said it better than I.
Yes, it is semantics in a way but all we have here are words.
BND - some quotes:
but she was also pushed into this choice
I agree with Bill, No one pushed her into anything.
Both of them are equally to blame for the demise of the Marriage.
Agree. Trouble is the LBS often takes 100% of the blame until he or she evaluates the situation with a solid emotional base.
And now, when she wants to try and be responsible and help out because Frank is in deep doo-doo
How can you possibly know that? If she is as weak as you say she is how can she possibly help Frank do anything when she cannot help herself?
No, I would bet money it will be Frank who gets his act together with the realizations that he has posted over this past week. He will use his anger for growth.
I just wonder how W will respond? Remember last time?
How do you constructively use anger? By being assertive with W and his girls. By refusing to be a doormat. By setting boundaries and enforcing them. By refusing to give into depression. By refusing to blame. By refusing self-pity. By refusing to be a spoiled brat. By refusing to "get even". By refusing jealousy. By walking away from arguments. By refusing to be "right". By refusing to justify. By using courage to be the leader when a leader is called for. By being pissed enough to be the rock in the storm.
That is what I am saying. Hard to do, but Frank is up to the task. He is not in deep doo-doo and needs for W to save him. He is coming out of the tunnel. If he is half the man I think he is, he will not only survive, but thrive.
Here is my morning 'anger' with D18. She was complaining about the dishes piled on the counter and the house being generally messy.
I told her that she is quite old enough to make decisions to actually help around the house. And I am the one who does all the work to keep us housed and fed and she and her sister could take some responsibility.
After some more back and forth she suggested making a chore list and enforcing it. I agreed.
In the past I would internalized this and back off, thinking I was being a jerk.
You get it Frank. Keep doing that and your life will change.
Yes, words are all we have here.
I just wonder how W will respond? Remember last time?
We weren't there so no, we don't remember. We know what frankd tells us and what he says his d's say to him and there is inconsistency.
How do you constructively use anger? By being assertive with W and his girls. By refusing to be a doormat. By setting boundaries and enforcing them. By refusing to give into depression. By refusing to blame. By refusing self-pity. By refusing to be a spoiled brat. By refusing to "get even". By refusing jealousy. By walking away from arguments. By refusing to be "right". By refusing to justify. By using courage to be the leader when a leader is called for. By being pissed enough to be the rock in the storm.
That is what I am saying. Hard to do, but Frank is up to the task. He is not in deep doo-doo and needs for W to save him. He is coming out of the tunnel. If he is half the man I think he is, he will not only survive, but thrive.
[/quote]
This I agree with totally.
( j )
25,
To me you are making sense!!
In Franks situation, I just feel that his Wife had her reasons, and if you had the opportunity to speak with her, you would hear a different side of the story....Just as if you spoke to any of our Spouses.
I have never condoned an affair, and until I came to this site and actually became friends with people who had committed adultery, I never fully understood why anyone would do it.
I still don't agree but I understand why people do the things they do.
I am not sure exactly what is different with Frank this time.
You have always had the ability to go home. You have the Ruby Slippers. Just click your heels three times and say "There's no place like home".
The men and woman who can not see that their actions helped lead to their spouse having an affair will have missed a very important leg of their journey.
While absolutely no one is ever "pushed" into an affair, myself included, the deck can certainly be being stacked against us for years before it actually happens. Then, when it does happen, we who are committing adultery spend most of our time wrongfully blaming YOU and then for those of us whom reality gets a hold of, we can then look forward to YOU then wholly blaming us. Is it ANY wonder so many WASs keep walking?
For healing to truly take place, whether the marriage is reconciled or not, there has to be a meeting in the middle. Where both parties share the blame - and then cut it loose. If that does not occur, the injured spouse misses out on God's grace and the former adulterous spouse misses out on His mercy, which she (or he) would receive abundantly through your genuine understanding and forgiveness.
That is all I have to add to this thread.
AmyC
The men and woman who can not see that their actions helped lead to their spouse having an affair will have missed a very important leg of their journey.
While absolutely no one is ever "pushed" into an affair, myself included, the deck can certainly be being stacked against us for years before it actually happens. Then, when it does happen, we who are committing adultery spend most of our time wrongfully blaming YOU and then for those of us whom reality gets a hold of, we can then look forward to YOU then wholly blaming us. Is it ANY wonder so many WASs keep walking?
I have always taken responsibility for my part of this, and I understand that I 'stacked' the deck against us surviving and leading to her having an affair. That's hard to accept but I do.
Of course you do...cause you get to feel bad about it.
; )
I'm being a jerk because I want you to get mad Frank.
I am not sure exactly what is different with Frank this time.
You have always had the ability to go home. You have the Ruby Slippers. Just click your heels three times and say "There's no place like home".
I don't know what you mean about the Ruby slippers.
I think what's different this time is last time her affair partner was 3,000 miles away in Connecticut. Not down the street.
It was a lot easier to handle the pain. And she was in the house and I was motivated to DB through it. I wasn't under as much financial pressure at the same time like I am now.
I guess I'm just beaten down more this time. It's been a lot harder to get back up.
The men and woman who can not see that their actions helped lead to their spouse having an affair will have missed a very important leg of their journey.
While absolutely no one is ever "pushed" into an affair, myself included, the deck can certainly be being stacked against us for years before it actually happens. Then, when it does happen, we who are committing adultery spend most of our time wrongfully blaming YOU and then for those of us whom reality gets a hold of, we can then look forward to YOU then wholly blaming us. Is it ANY wonder so many WASs keep walking?
I have always taken responsibility for my part of this, and I understand that I 'stacked' the deck against us surviving and leading to her having an affair. That's hard to accept but I do.
I know that.
You are one of the exceptions, Jack.
Of course you do...cause you get to feel bad about it.
; )
I'm being a jerk because I want you to get mad Frank.
I am mad, but I'm done feeling 'bad' about it. She did what she did and this is who she is.
words Frank, I've heard this song before, you know?
Amy, That wasn't me it was Frank. Although YES, Amen and Hallelujiah! I have sinned as well as my wife in the path of her MLC and lead her into temptation. ; )
W just showed up with groceries. Told me a couple of choices for dinner she was making tonight and asked me which one I would like.
I'm trying to avoid her.
Why are you trying to avoid her
This is exactly what I am confused about!
Can't you be a grown up about this?
So she is moved back in? Fully?
So she is moved back in? Fully?
Not yet brought her stuff back but she said she's staying here now.
Why are you trying to avoid her
This is exactly what I am confused about!
Can't you be a grown up about this?
I am being grown up about this. I'm angry. I just don't know what it is you want from me? She's just here because she doesn't trust me.
What about your 'no place like home' post? What was your point there?
She is talking about avoiding her.
You have that talk about boundaries then? All is good good? Total understanding? She documents you you document her, douchbag isn't in the picture at all you know texts, visits phone calls, otherwise she's the one leaving.
What a long read from today, lots to think about here.
First off, the anger is ok Frank. But I want you to be realistic about it and understand clearly that the anger is a defense mechanism for a man who is not ready to face all that needs to be faced. In many ways you are simply coping with some of the realities by becoming angry because around here it is all to often said that you must become angry at some point to help you move on.
In my opinion that is the tool you are choosing to use. I doubt very much you are even clear completely as to why you angry. I mean you fluctuate. You are angry at her for her choices, you are angry at yourself for not stepping up sooner, you are angry for your children because their family is torn up, and you are probably even a bit angry with your higher power as I am pretty sure you do not embrace these challenges as a way to make you a stronger man.
So to that point, the anger is fine, but it is not your road to glory or how you will persevere in the long run. The bottom line is it takes a much stronger man to find his compassion and understanding than it does for one to get angry.
Shitte, I have as much reason to be angry as any man. Yet my choice is to push past that and instead try and find my inner strength and not allow or depend on the anger to provide me with my future. You cannot allow that either. What you, and I, have to do is get back to basics Frank. Find your ambition, find your drive, find what it is that stimulates you.
What is it Frank that makes you feel whole? What drives you? To me now is not the time to focus on your wife being there. Now is not the time to focus on all that has gone wrong. Now is the time for you to find your comfort zone so you don't have to avoid her in the house. She's there Frank, there ain't shitt you can do about that. Now find your way to be yourself in your home. Find your way clear to be able to function day to day with a business as usual attitude.
For example... Do you make yourself breakfast in the mornings? If so, keep doing it.If she's in the kitchen, so be it. Walk your happy arse in there and make your breakfast. Continue your routines. Continue what makes you comfortable. She is there for whatever reason (reality is we can all speculate on her motives, but we are all completely clueless and simply interjecting our opinions based on a determination we have made about your wife because of how you have portrayed her, we all know that reality could be just about anything) let her be there, find your peace with it because its fuckking happening, accept it.
I think what is important now is for you to find a routine. A daily regimen that makes you comfortable. Make yourself a list Frank, and stick to it. I have one and even when I am dragging ass I stick to it because it simply is what I need to do. Here is mine for every morning.
1. Hit snooze one time and get my bearings.
2. Shower and shave.
3. Make my bed.
4. Wake the kids
5. Take the dog out so he doesnt shitt in the house.
6. Make breakfast for the kids and myself.
7. Check and make sure the kids beds are made...(do not take their word for it)
8. In the car by 6:50.
This is my every morning routine Monday through Friday. I do this because it jump starts my day and it gives me the sense of knowing that I have started my day off correctly. It keeps me from getting the morning funk and feeling like I have forgotten something. It allows me to not have to think and to simply do.
Frank, I think all this talk on here is great and all, but it's time for some practicality and for you to start working. It's time for you to stop beating the same dead horse and instead take action. I know you are making steps to do that, but then you also seem to be looking for answers and trying to come up with ways to exercise your demons so you don't have to feel bad. Hence the focus for the last two days on your anger. It's ok to be angry, but quit talking and just be.
Faith, our behaviors do help push them away. Our choices open the door to them leaving. Our lack of attention allows them to all out of love. Not one of those things justifies the actions that many of our spouses take. It is too fuckinn simple to just go to the courthouse and file for divorce without all the rigamaroo and not for nothing, but penises don't just fall into vaginas on accident..... That... is theirs to own and IMHO is a fair and succinct reason for people to be angry and feel betrayed and hurt. Yep, we screwed the pooch, but we didn't deserve the hurt that their actions caused so NO, our ownership only hangs on the downfall of the love, not on the actions they took to destroy it.
Sorry for the tangent, reading as I post so I don't miss stuff.
Look frank, I can right now think of only 5 things that your mind needs to be on right now.
1. No drinking- AA meetings
2. Help for Frank's depression- IC
3. Finances- See a bankruptcy attorney and figure out all yoru options.
4. Future- Get your work done every day. No more putting stuff off.
5. Your kids- I think you need to find a way to improve your quality time with your kids. Find some kind of activity besides going out to eat that you can do with each of them and get engaged in their lives. Teenage girls need this.
I just want to point out that I see your wifes name in absolutely none of these 5 things. Now for goodness sakes let her go and take care of yourself. You need anger, ok, get angry at yourself for letting a business that you know damn well could make a fortune sit idle and only make what you need to get by. Get angry at yourself for allowing alcohol become your bandaid, now you can't even be a social drinker. Get angry at yourself because you allowed your daughter to see your depression and what levels it takes you to and forced her to send a letter to your wife that she knew would have huge ramifications. Get angry with Frank because he should have been working on this for the last 3 years instead of allowing it to get to this point.
That should motivate you, you know damn well all of the potential that you bring to the table Frank. You know the drive it took you to start your own company and make it a huge success. You need to find that fire and that passion again and apply it to your own life and personal needs.
I love ya man, but you are sometimes your own worst enemy.
Ian
words Frank, I've heard this song before, you know?
Amy, That wasn't me it was Frank. Although YES, Amen and Hallelujiah! I have sinned as well as my wife in the path of her MLC and lead her into temptation. ; )
Sorry Jack!
pardon me for missing the "essence" of this scenario with the dinner, and her invitational comment, but Do you think she's trying to poison you? I mean, why not say either "no thanks, I have plans," or "thanks for cooking, I'll pick 'x', and I'll cook tomorrow" ?
Your d's are watching your interactions and probably saw your w make a nice gesture. And you said what? This is not a conspiracy or secret plan to ruin you or judge you...but to make you dinner. If she had made dinner for everyone BUT you, you'd feel what?
Hurt? Angry? Both. But she offered you a choice in dinner. Geez Frankd, what's she got to do to get you to just "be"? Stop the analyzing. It ain't helping you.
(j)
pardon me for missing the "essence" of this scenario with the dinner, and her invitational comment, but Do you think she's trying to poison you? I mean, why not say either "no thanks, I have plans," or "thanks for cooking, I'll pick 'x', and I'll cook tomorrow" ?
I smiled as I said it. It was a joke and she took it that way.
Your d's are watching your interactions and probably saw your w make a nice gesture. And you said what? This is not a conspiracy or secret plan to ruin you or judge you...but to make you dinner. If she had made dinner for everyone BUT you, you'd feel what?
They weren't there.
Hurt? Angry? Both. But she offered you a choice in dinner. Geez Frankd, what's she got to do to get you to just "be"? Stop the analyzing. It ain't helping you.
(j)
I thought I was being funny actually.
I missed the joke totally. No offense, but where is it? I feel like I usually pick up on these things.
( j )
I missed the joke totally. No offense, but where is it? I feel like I usually pick up on these things.
( j )
Ok, I get your point.
So, after talking to some friends I get that I don't need to 'avoid' W. I need to do whatever I would normally do and if she's around just be me.
As far as dinners, we're giving the girls a mixed message if both of us are at the table with them. We're separated, room mates. So I'm going to suggest we alternate days having dinner with the girls.
Just be.
and your goal in eating separately is what? You'd do that with a roomate?
i really doubt that your girls will think eating together is sooo mixed of a signal. I mean, why'd you have a birthday dinner for d18 with w there? Why not have separate ones? Oh, I remember, b/c d18 wanted to have dinner together. And you have a d13 too? Well, I am not there and don't know what your reactions and options really are.
Seriously, do whatever you can handle and feel alright about.
( j )
Frank, why make it more difficult.What is it going to hurt to have dinner with your wife and kids.Make it as easy as possible, don't create friction.Your kids are smart enough to realize what is going on.
and your goal in eating separately is what? You'd do that with a roomate?
i really doubt that your girls will think eating together is sooo mixed of a signal. I mean, why'd you have a birthday dinner for d18 with w there? Why not have separate ones? Oh, I remember, b/c d18 wanted to have dinner together. And you have a d13 too? Well, I am not there and don't know what your reactions and options really are.
Why are you so angry at me?
When my dad got angry, he hurt people, emotionally or physically or both. Period. He didn't have the tools...
So yeah, I get afraid when Frankd says he wants to be angry...and you guys egg him on as if you know what it'll mean for his daughters. Sorry, but that's my take on it.
AmyC suggested that I say I am 'offended', not 'angry'. 'Angry' carries too much weight to it. And 'offended' is closer to how I am feeling.
As far as dinners, we're giving the girls a mixed message if both of us are at the table with them. We're separated, room mates. So I'm going to suggest we alternate days having dinner with the girls.
I honestly believe you make life too damn complicated for yourself.
You are not giving mixed messages to the girls, in fact you are setting an example of what co-parenting should be.
My snarky quote about the ruby slippers basically meant that you have had the ability to be Frank all of the time, you just refused to pay attention and use what you already had to get there.
You don't need 72 people posting to you, all giving their advice. Most of this is common sense.
I don't mean to be short with you, really I don't, but the analysis paralysis you suffer from sometimes makes me spin too!!
Hey Frank,
First and foremost you ( and everyone posting to you) have been in this "bs" for lack of a better word, for much longer than I. I may even be out of line to post to you, who knows?
You are a very intellegent man Frank, and in almost every aspect of life that is beneficial. There are times however, that can work against you. I have never met you, but I have seen enough to KNOW that your a very good person. The positives outway the negatives by far.
Now this is from one overthinker to another....
I have one close friend I open up to outside of the DB boards. One. He has been in a similar sitch. and he knows me best. I was venting to him one day.(one of many) He looked at me with a sh*t eatin grin and said." Do you know what your problem is?" I said What?! He said, Your too much brain and not enough balls. Frank, at first I wanted to deck him and he just grinned. Please don't take offense to this. I am by no means directing that at you. It opened my eyes though.
Frank, Your a great man and father, who desires to become better after walking through hell.
SIMPLICITY
Take some time alone and picture the "Frank" you desire to be, this part should come pretty easy.
Now, Little by little, bite by bite, MOVE to the "Frank." For YOU and only you.
It doesn't matter how small the movement is as long as your moving.
Lack of knowledge is not your problem. You have THE best offering their advice and your already extremely smart.
Keep moving toward "Frank." No matter how big or small the step, just keep moving. If you have that mental image of "Frank." there is nothing left to think about.
Keep your guard up, take care of your daughters, keep moving forward and Find FRANK.
I'm praying for you.
SIMPLICITY & MOVEMENT
Take care pal.
Frank,
You're doing fine. Make your plan and stick with it. The abundance of contradictory advice here is exactly what leads to your paralysis by analysis.
There's nothing wrong with refusing to eat together as a family. Your wife has made her intentions clear. She has come home for illegitimate reasons which you are not required to appear to endorse by sharing meals with her.
It IS possible to work towards effective co-parenting without yiedling to every direction given by a spouse who has already violated your trust by sleeping with others. And as a fellow male, I can tell you that I can COMPLETELY understand how hard it would be to do all these things that SHE is deciding need done.
Alternate meal nights with the girls is a perfect compromise. Recall that until yesterday she didn't even live in the house anymore.
You're doing well.
Blessings,
Bill
Frank,
For the sake of peace and semblance in your life
Pick one person to get advice from.
There are obviously too many schools of thought here, and too many perspectives.
This thread was intended to give you good advice and to help guide you along the way, instead it has become a pissing contest.
Don't forget how to breathe!!!!
(((((((hugs)))))))
There is no pissing contest here BND. I'm not sure what would make you say that.
The power of the board is diversity in opinions and the different viewpoints that we bring.
If Frank is overwhelmed, all he has to do is say so.
I'll step aside, since contradictory opinions seem to be what you call "pissing contest."
Frank, you can holler at me through FB if you want my take on anything. And if not, that's cool too.
Stay strong.
Blessings,
Bill
My 2 cents for what its worth is do what is going to cause less friction with your girls. Make the home situation pleasant and calm. That would be really sad if the girls were stuck in the middle in their own home.
First and foremost you ( and everyone posting to you) have been in this "bs" for lack of a better word, for much longer than I. I may even be out of line to post to you, who knows?
Trapt, not out of line at all and it's good for Frank to hear things from a range of people.
Frank, sometimes you leave out details on how you will proceed and it causes people to conflict because instead of comprehending what you are doing, the make assumptions.
From speaking on the phone with you, I know that your intent about the dinners is that it will not be a planned sit down dinner with the kids every night playing happy family. I also know that if you are making dinner for the girls you will also make sure to make enough for your wife as well. Stating these things would help people understand that its not about over complicating,more contingency planning.
Hey BND, whats the old saying??? Opinions are like ?????, everyone has one. I think Frank is getting great views from many many strong people here. I think it's good that he hears some of the variety so he can make some educated decisions as he moves ahead. If you look at what we are all saying here, we are all trying to head him in the same direction, just some of our styles vary.
Ian
The abundance of contradictory advice here is exactly what leads to your paralysis by analysis.
Hey Ian,
Have I told you lately how much I miss your blurbs on my thread or on FB?
I agree with you, as Frank does need a little help from his friends.
I got my cue from Bworl, as mentioned in the above quote, so that was the reason for my post.
Not everyone has to agree, I know that.
But everyone is entitled to have an opinion.
And...we all have a little different perspective on the situation because we are all in a different place.
Have a wonderful day.....
Are you getting ready for the Superbowl tomorrow?
(((((((hugs)))))))
As if you didn't already have enough advice, if I may.....
Do what feels comfortable for YOU.
To often we are focused on how something we are doing is or may affect the other person. I have been very guilty of this myself. I feel much of the advice on the boards is opinions which people believe will best serve that end (WAS's return).
The truth is only they are in control of that outcome. Entertaining thoughts that our actions may affect our WAS is an excercise in self-delusion (and possibly self-torture).
It's a lot easier to do what is best for us after the emotional connection dies.
Do what YOU want to do, Frank.
To do anything else is not being true to yourself or your WAS and accomplishes nothing other than keeping you in the prision of her actions.
and your goal in eating separately is what? You'd do that with a roomate?
i really doubt that your girls will think eating together is sooo mixed of a signal. I mean, why'd you have a birthday dinner for d18 with w there? Why not have separate ones? Oh, I remember, b/c d18 wanted to have dinner together. And you have a d13 too? Well, I am not there and don't know what your reactions and options really are.
Why are you so angry at me?
Stay on track Frank
j-
I agree with BND on some aspects about the opinions, everyone has their own opinions and Frank is a big boy and can pick and choose which opinions he agrees with and what works for him.
I think it is great that everyone is doing what they can for Frank and trying to help him but when it comes down to it FRANK is the only one who can decide what he IS going to do.
When I first came to the boards, I got lots of different opinions and got very confused on what to do. One person says give up, another says hang in there, etc.... I freaked out and left the boards. For me, that was a good thing...for Frank he needs the boards. I see so many people doing their bests to help.
Everyone is at a different stage in their own situations and the opinions and advice they give is good. Frank just has to figure out where he stands and which advice is good for whatever he is going through at the time. I have not read one thing on here that has been negative though. The only negativity I read is from Frank himself at times.
Frank, to get through the day you must be positive. Don't sit and worry about what is going to happen next. Don't avoid your wife, it will just cause more friction and send mixed signals. Be yourself!!!!
I don't mean to be so blunt on this but sometimes I read the posts and it seems he is really asking for help and other times I feel he is just bored and wants to talk.
Sitting back and looking at what I have gone through, I wish I had stepped up off the curb and done something sooner. Don't sit back and wait for your life to become what you want it to be, YOU need to step up and MAKE your life what you want.
I hope no one takes any of this post the wrong way. I am always afraid of saying anything because I don't want people to think I am bitter from my own situation. I'm not, I just want to be honest and not sugar coat things. I think the sugar coating is what kept my mind from functioning right.
Frank, you need to make a game plan and stick to it.
Thanks to everyone for your input. I think the bottom line is this:
Do what feels right at the time. Be true to myself. No analysis. Just be. Focus on my work and spend more quality time with the girls.
No eggshells. True honesty about anything on my mind. I have nothing to lose, and me to gain.
I am just going to be me. I don't need to punish her or feel like she is punishing me. This is my life and it could end any day. Life is worth living and I intend to live it in a better place.
I'm good with this.
Frank...its a beautiful day outside. Hope you are out doing something fun and making your life what YOU want.
Thanks to everyone for your input. I think the bottom line is this:
Do what feels right at the time. Be true to myself. No analysis. Just be. Focus on my work and spend more quality time with the girls.
No eggshells. True honesty about anything on my mind. I have nothing to lose, and me to gain.
I am just going to be me. I don't need to punish her or feel like she is punishing me. This is my life and it could end any day. Life is worth living and I intend to live it in a better place.
I'm good with this.
Frank, I think you just brought a tear to my eye......
Found out W is calling OM 2-3 times a day for 2 minutes or so. This is down from the 20 - 40 minutes each day and of course practically living with him. But, she's still talking to him. Don't think there's anything I should do about that.
and how prey tell did you find that out?
But you said to me last night that HE was calling HER and you said that the calls only lasted 1 minute, and you said that that meant she was "not answering" the call....so now you found out that she is calling him and the calls last for 2 mins or so?
Seems you have two options here, Frank:
1) Call her on it and tell her that she's breaking your boundary
or
2) Quit snooping
But you said to me last night that HE was calling HER and you said that the calls only lasted 1 minute, and you said that that meant she was "not answering" the call....so now you found out that she is calling him and the calls last for 2 mins or so?
I was misreading the call log. She was calling him.
Seems you have two options here, Frank:
1) Call her on it and tell her that she's breaking your boundary
or
2) Quit snooping
I'll quit snooping. I wanted to believe her but no such luck.
Oh well. It just makes me angry.
snooping serves no purpose.
Your boundary was also that she not have her boyfriends at your house not that she cant call him. I am not sure what you are mad at here Frank. You knew about him, she is not bringing him around. Let it go.....
Ian
snooping serves no purpose.
Your boundary was also that she not have her boyfriends at your house not that she cant call him. I am not sure what you are mad at here Frank. You knew about him, she is not bringing him around. Let it go.....
I am letting it go. It just perturbs me when she says 'I cut it off' but it was a lie.
No worries. It was a good reality check.
But you said to me last night that HE was calling HER and you said that the calls only lasted 1 minute, and you said that that meant she was "not answering" the call....so now you found out that she is calling him and the calls last for 2 mins or so?
I was misreading the call log. She was calling him.
Seems you have two options here, Frank:
1) Call her on it and tell her that she's breaking your boundary
or
2) Quit snooping
I'll quit snooping. I wanted to believe her but no such luck.
Oh well. It just makes me angry.
Deal with the things that you can control and that sh*t that is yours to own.
snooping serves no purpose.
Your boundary was also that she not have her boyfriends at your house not that she cant call him. I am not sure what you are mad at here Frank. You knew about him, she is not bringing him around. Let it go.....
I am letting it go. It just perturbs me when she says 'I cut it off' but it was a lie.
No worries. It was a good reality check.
Why did you need a reality check?
Were you delusional?
Are you still wishing in one hand and pissin' in the other?
Why did you need a reality check?
Were you delusional?
Are you still wishing in one hand and pissin' in the other?
Yeah, and the other one is wet and warm....
But it ain't no more full than the one you were wishing is it?
And just to be clear - you're not DBing for the marriage - you're DBing for YOUR life now.
Independent of Lorri.
Save yourself.
Another way to put it:
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Another way to put it:
Get busy living or get busy dying.
I get it Amy. She doesn't give a flying fook about my life even though she made dinner tonight, asked me if I liked it, asked me if she should make more of the same and then went to Pia's house for a birthday party.
It's all about me now.
But it ain't no more full than the one you were wishing is it?
nope, they are about equal. Both full of piss.
By the way, did I ever mention that she told me (although I never saw it) that in 1998 she was drinking her urine because she had heard it had health benefits?
I never saw it, but she said she did it.
About the same time she said she 'saw' the spirit of the woman who had lived in that house before us and killed herself.
The story is that this woman, about 3-4 years previous, had discovered that her husband, who was a businessman, was having an affair with his secretary.
So, she decided to build a gazebo on the hill of the property (which we bought) and to put in a 'lagoon pool' and other things for her daughters.
One day she found out he was on a business trip with OW and went to the airport in Santa Barbara, which is small and pretty open access, and waited by the lugggage pickup till she saw them. Then she walked up to them and said something, then shot herself in the head.
W claims her spirit was in that house. I never felt or saw anything.
and I'm very intuitive.
And just to be clear - you're not DBing for the marriage - you're DBing for YOUR life now.
Independent of Lorri.
Save yourself.
Oh, I'm clear on that now. Very clear.
It's possible that when you drink urine, you hallucinate.
Drinking urine has its benefits if you have a stupid
Man Vs Wild tv show that needs sensationalism to stay on the air.
But it ain't no more full than the one you were wishing is it?
nope, they are about equal. Both full of piss.
By the way, did I ever mention that she told me (although I never saw it) that in 1998 she was drinking her urine because she had heard it had health benefits?
I never saw it, but she said she did it.
About the same time she said she 'saw' the spirit of the woman who had lived in that house before us and killed herself.
The story is that this woman, about 3-4 years previous, had discovered that her husband, who was a businessman, was having an affair with his secretary.
So, she decided to build a gazebo on the hill of the property (which we bought) and to put in a 'lagoon pool' and other things for her daughters.
One day she found out he was on a business trip with OW and went to the airport in Santa Barbara, which is small and pretty open access, and waited by the lugggage pickup till she saw them. Then she walked up to them and said something, then shot herself in the head.
W claims her spirit was in that house. I never felt or saw anything.
and I'm very intuitive.
Your hands would be equally EMPTY.
And I don't see any relevance in that story to the task at hand but if you were just making small talk I would say that no matter how true or tragic that story may be, I seriously doubt the woman's spirit is haunting
anything.
As far as intuition goes, mine just tells me that Lorri is a fruit loop.
Frank, my thing is this. It's not about what she is doing, who she is talking to, or if she dumped the OM. It is about her being there to help with the girls and give you time to focus on getting your own [censored] together.
So how about we stop with all the contemplating her motives, wondering if she is still with the douchebag, and focusing on anything but yourself.
I agree with Amy, she is a fruit loop. I will call you today....
Ian
Frank, my thing is this. It's not about what she is doing, who she is talking to, or if she dumped the OM. It is about her being there to help with the girls and give you time to focus on getting your own [censored] together.
So how about we stop with all the contemplating her motives, wondering if she is still with the douchebag, and focusing on anything but yourself.
It's kind of hard to ignore her when she's here. I am working on making that better. At least she's pleasant when she talks to me.
And, I don't like who she has become.
I'm looking at what I want to accomplish in my life and making a plan on how to do it.
So, I'm here reminding myself that right now, what I do is all about me, my life, my happiness. Because when I am the 'new, improved Frank' myself and my daughters will live better.
I've been unhappy and hurting a long time. This is the end, everything is finished. And it's the beginning of something new. I'm going to do very well this year.
Frank,
I hear you .With God all things are possible,regardless of all the circumstances around you , you can prosper.Day by day , take it day by day.
I am stability. I am the Rock. I am the head of my household
Now...to stick with the plan. Stay with this. If she is drinking urine (which, by the way, contains anything poisonous you took in for the day), then, uh....well....I think you get the picture. Send a telegram to OM about what he's been kissing.
You must not fail frank. Part of DB'ing, as we all know, is making changes in ourselves for US. You must turn yourself into a pint of Rocky Road....a conglomerate mish mosh of everyting:
-part DB
-part N.U.T.S.
-part Cunningham
-part Deida
You must succeed.
Failure is not an option.
But not for Lorri....for you.
FIB
Of course I disagree Frank.
So when is she going to start bringing him over for dinner?
And how are you going to validate that in your head?
Boundaries?
Its more than a word you type out here.
Of course I disagree Frank.
So when is she going to start bringing him over for dinner?
And how are you going to validate that in your head?
Boundaries?
Its more than a word you type out here.
She isn't. She knows that boundary and others I keep setting.
Yesterday morning I told her about a change to our morning routines regarding our African Grey Parrot. That we don't uncover her cage early if we get up. That way she stays quiet so everyone else can sleep in.
STBX apologized for not realizing the rules had been changed. So, she sees herself as not being in charge. I'm the man in this house.
Also, she has been home every night.
Now...to stick with the plan. Stay with this. If she is drinking urine (which, by the way, contains anything poisonous you took in for the day), then, uh....well....I think you get the picture. Send a telegram to OM about what he's been kissing.
She did this YEARS ago. And yeah, I agree with you, it's weird. But people think it's a cure all. Check out this article, and the articles by doctors that it links to
Urine Therapy. Ick.
You must not fail frank. Part of DB'ing, as we all know, is making changes in ourselves for US. You must turn yourself into a pint of Rocky Road....a conglomerate mish mosh of everyting:
-part DB
-part N.U.T.S.
-part Cunningham
-part Deida
You must succeed.
I agree, those 4 are the path. I will succeed.
Wow, that just makes me want to gag. Yuck and double yuck
Are there books out there for medicinal uses of poop, buggers, and toe jam? LOL I saw that episode of that guy drinking his own urine and I guess maybe if I were lost in the desert and was dying I would think about it.
Frank,
I like that you are feeling the winds of change on the inside and you took a step that your the man about the parrot. I must have missed it? Why did she move home?
Some (all?) of the holistic health stuff is just plain weird IMHO.
It would be entertaining if you could train the parrot to repeat some funny embarrasing phrase (ie. "drink more urine") everytime STBXW got near it.
Sandycay - For your information there was
Jenkem which I think has been proved as an urban legend. If it was true, it gives new meaning to the term "sh** faced".
I think the 'urine' story is getting too much play. It happened 10 years ago. Just another one of her holistic phases.
I think the 'urine' story is getting too much play. It happened 10 years ago. Just another one of her holistic phases.
Put it where it belongs......in the past and leave it there.
How is Frank really doing today? Nothing about any of your problems, just how do you feel mentally? You ready to get out there and live your life to its fullest?
I think the 'urine' story is getting too much play. It happened 10 years ago. Just another one of her holistic phases.
Frank
you brought up the urine thing.
And since it
was 10 years ago I reckon that tells us where your head was as opposed to where it should have been (in the present - YOUR present - and on your future).
So how many outings do you have planned for yourself this week?
How is Frank really doing today? Nothing about any of your problems, just how do you feel mentally? You ready to get out there and live your life to its fullest?
I feel ok mentally. I am focusing on work today. Mondays are always slam days. It's the 11th hour on many things and I'm angry that I let life get so out of control.
A little anxiety, but it will pass.
And since it was 10 years ago I reckon that tells us where your head was as opposed to where it should have been (in the present - YOUR present - and on your future).
So how many outings do you have planned for yourself this week?
So true. My present is one of work, hope for a stable financial situation and peace in my life so I will be ok when STBX leaves. I'm trying hard to be 'friendly' so there's no conflict in the house - for the girls sake.
And I'm trying to be forgiving, for my sake.
so I will be ok when STBX leaves
She left 4 months ago.
so I will be ok when STBX leaves
She left 4 months ago.
Good point. Thank you. I really need to keep that mindset. She is gone. Goodbye.
I'm really stressed out. Half my clients are upset with me because of the past month of slow productivity. I know I can 'redeem myself' eventually but it still hurts to know I let this happen again.
I just need to remember that if I do the right thing consistently it will eventually turn around. I sure wish I had someone here to be supportive. I'm going to make it. I refuse to lose.
D18 asked me if I was going to eat dinner with them tonight. Remember that when W was out of the house, she used to come over 2 days a week to make dinner and I would leave the house during those times. I told D18 that I would and that it was not an issue. I think she was worrying that since STBX is here every day and will cook every day then I'd not be around and it'd be awkward.
I'm ok with the dinner thing. I mean, I gotta eat and she's a decent cook.
I do thank her for making food. I also thanked her for cleaning the house and let her know I appreciate it. I got the 'Well thank you Frank' in the MLC semi detached voice. But I meant it and I feel like the better person for saying it.
D13's english teacher called W to talk about a lot of missed homework. So, W called me to tell me about the situation and what she thinks we should do as lost privileges for telling us she didn't have homework when she was being told by her teacher that she was going to call us if she didn't catch up.
We agreed on what do do and I got to be the heavy with D13.
Life goes on.
Hi there Frank - not sure from your post what you're stressed about!
You have said you can redeem yourself with your clients
You have your daughter cleaning and cooking for you
So distilling your post...seems to me you just have some lost homework to catch up on...
...is there not a way of figuring out if D has some homework when she gets it?
I went into the kitchen where STBX was making dinner. As I was walking by she asked me how things were going today. I replied and said today was crappy and went outside for a short walk to de-stress.
Came back in a few minutes later and she asked me when I ate last. I replied that I didn't remember. So she goes to the cupboard and takes out some protein bars and says "Here eat one of these it'll make you feel better."
I told her that dinner would be ready soon and I can wait. She says that "You're just like D18, if your blood sugar level goes down you get irritable and we all suffer". I wasn't being irritable at the time but she kept insisting I needed to eat one of the protein bars, so I took one and ate it and thanked her for it.
Went into my office afterwards and a few minutes later she called me on the intercom to tell me dinner was ready.
I'm not going to analyze this, it's just irritating in some way I can't explain.
in case this locks, I made a new thread.
saving myself
Feeling better this morning than I did yesterday. Looking forward and thinking positive thoughts.
This morning W was in the kitchen when I got up. While I made coffee she started talking to me about her financial situation and spent a good 5 minutes unloading her frustration with the Holistic Treatment center she works at part time and how the owner has been giving her very few referrals and has been difficult to deal with lately. I just listened and validated. Not my problem.
Then she went on to ask me how I was 'feeling' about her being here, saying that we're 'one in a million' saying that most people couldn't live together under these circumstances. I said I was fine with things and not to be concerned.
She said she was worried that I thought she was watching my every move but that wasn't the case.
Then she said that she was so glad to be here because she really missed being with the girls, and that she feel like they really need her in their day to day life. I told her that I appreciate that she's here and all the things she is doing.
She told me that she thinks I spend too much time working and not enough time getting out of the office. Basically GAL.
It was a positive exchange and she wasn't in her 'detached' voice. She was present.
Anyway, thought I throw this out there. As I said, I'm in a better mood today.
Good to hear your in a better mood.
Then she said that she was so glad to be here because she really missed being with the girls, and that she feel like they really need her in their day to day life. I told her that I appreciate that she's here and all the things she is doing.
I had to think about this statement. When she told me this I cringed inside because I was thinking that I wasn't 'good enough' to take care of the girls. I failed and now she is bringing all the 'good parenting' into the house.
My first inclination in the past would be to say "Yeah I guess I sucked at taking care of them". But I didn't. I thought it but didn't say it.
I know I didn't do the greatest job but I was here, I worked to keep us here, and I love them. I did the best I could at the time.
I need to remember that and give myself Kudos for at least doing that much.
I noticed that STBX carried her purse with her when she took some trash out to the curb. She used to do that to make sure I didn't see her cell phone calls.
So, it bothered me. And since I have nothing to lose by being honest about my feelings I told her what I saw and how I have no interest in looking at her cell phone or cell logs.
She said she had nothing to hide and that she wasn't carrying her purse around to hide her cellphone from me. In fact she thought she didn't really have it but may have and just forgot.
I told her that I just wanted to clear the air over this and left the room.
A few minutes later she came to my office and said she just wanted to be clear that she is no longer going to lie and hide things from me. That OM is still her friend and they sometimes talk on the phone because he is part of her spiritual network of friends.
I said that he was the spiritual friend she ended up in bed with so that's a little hard to believe. And she replied that he was letting her go and there was no sex involved, they only talk sometimes on the phone.
I told her I had trouble believing her since she has had affairs and they all start out with 'friends'. Her response was that I did the same thing. I said that I never violated my wedding vows and had an affair. She said that I lied to her and ran off with 'a bottle'.
I said that it's not the same as running to another person and violate my wedding vows and she said that it doesn't matter, it was still leaving the marriage for something else. In her opinion they are equivalent.
She said that she had to leave and go through that whole 'dating' thing to realize that it was a mistake to 'get involved with someone' when she hadn't gotten rid of her current relationship. She said "that's my pattern though, and it's wrong". So now she's not getting involved with anyone until we get through 'our' financial difficulties and stabilize our family emotionally. And until she is divorced.
She said "You'll just have to see what I'm doing until you start to trust me again".
She seemed serious when she said all this. She seems to think that you can just tell a guy "we'll just be friends" after what she's done and it'll all be ok.
I told her that it's hard to believe her but I will try to trust her. She said she is trying to learn to believe me also.
This is like "Piecing for a Divorce". Crazy.
I'm still ok today.
Frankd
(sigh) You are sooo overthinking and over analyzing, right after you say you won't. Just be here now. That is enough.
Second, you are still going over crap from the M and what is the point of it all? You will NOT get a "verdict" on this. At least not in this life. There is no point in trying to see the M history the same way, and fyi I now believe that is impossible.
For my M and the reconciling we are doing, I cannot go back over H's transgressions for a host of reasons. But ONE reason is that he won't see things the same way I do so it really is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere. What matters in reconciling, and if NO recon is happening I'd argue this matters in moving forward anyway, is how you will relate to each other from now on.
Going forward, all we know is you two are the parents of some lovely young girls/women. Be there for them as best you can, and seriously, end the contest over who was the worst spouse. It truly does not matter anymore. If cooperation and a common purpose lead to a decent R, then maybe a friendship can exist but without all the analysis and baggage. Let it go. The "worst spouse" contest, and the attempt at seeing your m history the same way, is incredibly counter-productive, futile, and negative. Make sense?
Just try to co-parent for now.
(( J ))
Then she said that she was so glad to be here because she really missed being with the girls, and that she feel like they really need her in their day to day life. I told her that I appreciate that she's here and all the things she is doing.
I had to think about this statement. When she told me this I cringed inside because I was thinking that I wasn't 'good enough' to take care of the girls. I failed and now she is bringing all the 'good parenting' into the house.
Frank you misunderstood and are making assumptions about your wife here. She said she missed them..Period She said she felt like needed her...period Those are all truths, nothing more.... she's missing her kids and her kids need her..... be happy she's awake enough to see that, that's what moms feel! My first inclination in the past would be to say "Yeah I guess I sucked at taking care of them". But I didn't.
Good job on keeping that thought to yourself.. now what is Frank going to do about that negative thinking? I thought it but didn't say it.
She didn't say that all.... you did.... now stop beating yourself up about this and move forward... we all screw up as parents ... get over it... although I like you.... your not perfect ya know I know I didn't do the greatest job but I was here, I worked to keep us here, and I love them. I did the best I could at the time.
Again whose the perfect parent on here, no one.. we all have regrets... hey our kids aren't perfect either and we still love them it's a two way street I need to remember that and give myself Kudos for at least doing that much.
Bloody Hell!!!!!!!
FRANK!!!!!
STOP IT!!!!
First, the 'contest' of who was the worse was in my head. I didn't accuse her of being the worst. She just dumped some blame on me with her 'you had an affair with the bottle' and I RESPONDED with the comment about her 'real' affair.
I didn't bring it up first.
And I was setting a BOUNDARY regarding her communicating with Douchebag. It had to be discussed because she is still calling him because they are 'friends'. She said that won't change right now and that it was a bad idea to get involved physically when she hadn't gotten rid of her current relationship.
Seriously, I'm not letting it get me down and the conversation wasn't that bad. About an hour later she went to go do some massages and came into my office to tell me her schedule. We were both pleasant and life goes on.
BND says we need to learn to be friends. Ok, I'll do that. I don't know STBX told me she wanted me to learn to 'trust her' again but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt until she proves me wrong.
if you go back and look at
this post from earlier this morning you can see that STBX opened up to me about her work issues and some other things. I listened and validated like a friend would.
BTW, I'm being very productive in my work today.
FrankD,
AmyC, Ian, Bworl, FIB, BND and many others have posted with you for a long time. I re-read some of your old posts, even going back over a year. It took me awhile b/c you have a lot of stuff on your threads and a lot of threads.
What struck me so much was how similar the words are: whether TO you, or FROM you, the same advice and same obsessing gets cycled through. Some of it is almost exactly verbatim what has been said before. Almost like cut and paste. I'm stunned really. I went back to January of last year, that's over a YEAR. What patience of these posters.
And how stuck you choose to be . As TNP told you (last August!), your w may have shot an arrow into your heart, but you choose to pick up the arrow and stab yourself again and again. Your childhood sucked and so did hers. FYI so did mine. Ever wonder what your kids are going to say about theirs? How available you were to them? I have read you say that you are going to start being there for your d's...too many times to count. Like I said, I STOPPED reading when I got to your posts that were over a year old. Just couldn't believe it.
You might want to do that yourself b/c it is eye opening.
As Amyc told you a YEAR ago, what can anyone say to get you Unstuck? You have to do it. Only you can, and no one else. Guess what? That's how it is and has been for a really long time. All of us had to get out of our 'comfort' zones to say the least. All of us had to be brave and take risks. And all of us had to stop doing the same thing over and over and expecting the result to be different.
I don't know what the word is for this kind of prolonged staying miserable while saying you don't want to be. But it's really unhealthy. I feel like I'm enabling it at times. Not sure how to help you. But more and more, when I look at those old posts and see the same sh== diff day, for soooo long, I get the feeling that this really is all about what YOU are willing to do and whether somehow wallowing here feeds something in you. I'm not a shrink. But Nothing anyone here says will make a difference. You've heard it all before. Literally. You've said it all before. Literally. But here you are, still. I don't want to be part of the problem. But I feel useless posting here and fear being an enabler. But if you really think you aren't stuck, I urge you read your old posts. Read what TNP and AmyC and others wrote to you months and months ago, and over a year ago. As I said, I stopped in January of '08 so who knows how far back it goes. But I think it'll shock you. Maybe that's the only thing that will.
( sigh )
( j )
25 years,
Thank you. Willing to bet for awhile you thought I was just being an a$$ to Frank.
Yes 25 years, I have been stuck and obsessing. The past week I've been adjusting to the new living situation again. I've been friendly with STBX and we've only had 1 altercation - when I thought she was hiding things from me.
It's been resolved and I feel good about the situation because I can accept it the way it is. There's no need for me to bring up any other issues from the past / present any longer.
I don't obsess over this situation. It's just what it is. I think I'm becoming 'unstuck' now as I have no more expectations. I'm more productive in my work now and I feel less stressful.
It's slow, but my goal is to get unstuck and keep moving forward.
I'm not angry any more, except at myself for allowing my life to go down this path, and that's a motivator.
I have accepted that we need to be friends as best we can, for the girls sake. I'm being as friendly as I can and I do my best to forgive the past.
Don't pretend to miss my point. Re-read your old posts Frankd. You'll see that you've said almost these exact things before.
Long ago. And over and over....
( j )
Then she said that she was so glad to be here because she really missed being with the girls, and that she feel like they really need her in their day to day life. I told her that I appreciate that she's here and all the things she is doing.
I had to think about this statement. When she told me this I cringed inside because I was thinking that I wasn't 'good enough' to take care of the girls. I failed and now she is bringing all the 'good parenting' into the house.
My first inclination in the past would be to say "Yeah I guess I sucked at taking care of them". But I didn't. I thought it but didn't say it.
I know I didn't do the greatest job but I was here, I worked to keep us here, and I love them. I did the best I could at the time.
I need to remember that and give myself Kudos for at least doing that much.
Frank, Frank, Frank...
Why must everything go back to "Frank is no good"?
When I read this, I thought that all she was saying was that the girls needed their mom. No matter how great of a dad you are, a girl still needs mom!!! It isn't about you not being good enough. It is not about you at all.
Quit overthinking!!!
Hugs!
Pam
P.S. And while you're at it, let go of the "if you really thought the girls needed you you wouldn't have left them" thought that has probably crossed your mind.
This is a new day. She is there. She wants to be a mom. Be thankful, if only for the sake of your girls.
Don't pretend to miss my point. Re-read your old posts Frankd. You'll see that you've said almost these exact things before.
Long ago. And over and over....
( j )
I didn't miss your point. I HAVE stayed stuck in this cycle of self abuse and not making changes I need to make. My friends have TRIED to tell me what to do but I haven't DONE what needs to be done. I have continued to analyze, be needy and victimize myself.
For the past two days I have been changing that. Like I said, with the exception of todays single discussion I have been very pleasant to be around.
What was I supposed to do? Jack says "what are you going to do when she invites OM to your house for dinner?" and I see her doing a behavior that reminds me of her 'usual' affair behavior? Not say anything to her?
Man, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.
So, here's my observation:
I believe W missed her family, which includes me. She recognizes on her own that running away to someone else wasn't the best choice for her or her family and stated "but that's what I do". She really misses being 'homemaker' and 'mom' for the girls.
She doesn't want to be married to me because she has no trust and the feelings are no longer there. She doesn't want to 'give up' her friendship with Michael but knows there can be no more physical relationship. So she's got some stuff to deal with.
I realize she isn't going to stop talking to Michael because she spent a lot of time with him as some kind of friend.
She knows I don't trust her and for whatever reason she wants to change that. She's trying to be friendly and talk to me as if I am a friend. This morning she talked a lot about her personal issues in her business and I listened and validated.
Overall, I am being a pretty decent guy to live with.
I GET that she is in some in between emotional place and I GET that I am the 'Head of the Household' and I have been stuck in a cycle of low self esteem and obsessing over painful events. I need to step up to the plate EMOTIONALLY, not just FINANCIALLY.
I'm forgiving the past, working on 'today' and recognizing that STBX is trying her best to make things work in this household in a positive way. She still wants a divorce but she knows she needs to actually help out during the financial crisis.
I appreciate that and I have told her 'thank you' and 'I appreciate what you are doing' when she shops, cleans, picks up the girls and makes dinner for everyone. I'm genuine and she reacts like she isn't sure what to say.
So, you're all right, I need to stop questioning the 'why is she...' and instead being grateful for the help. Ok, so no more why. Only faith, love and hope for my life.
I have had two days of a mixture of stress and positiveness. I JUST finished a really hard part of one of my big projects and I feel like a great load is lifted off my shoulders. No, I'm not 'over it', I'm pushing the negative thoughts and feelings out of my head and looking at the positives instead.
STBX is sincere in what she says. Over the next few months I will work on being more of a friend so that we can be better co-parents. I won't question 'why this' or 'why that'. It just is.
I've done this before, 3 years ago, and I can do it again. But I'm not even TRYING to 'reconcile'. Truthfully, I just don't think I want to.
She knows I don't trust her and for whatever reason she wants to change that.
IF that were TRUE, then Michael...how quaint...wouldn't be recieving calls from her.
No [censored] really you were friends before you started having sex and you want to still be friends while you live in the same house as me and you want me to trust you...can you pass the KY I was thinking maybe Michael would want to screw me over as well.
You pay to play. You pay for mistakes. You certainly are, why does she get a free [censored] pass?
Frank, Frank, Frank...
Why must everything go back to "Frank is no good"?
When I read this, I thought that all she was saying was that the girls needed their mom. No matter how great of a dad you are, a girl still needs mom!!! It isn't about you not being good enough. It is not about you at all.
I think the point of that post that didn't come across very well was that I recognize that I think these crappy thoughts and I need to give myself credit for doing 'good'.
So I agree with you. It doesn't need to be that way.
You pay to play. You pay for mistakes. You certainly are, why does she get a free [censored] pass?
I don't know, perhaps the various posters who beat me up for bringing it up with her today, and for not being appreciative of her 'coming home to help out' can answer that. I'm tired of being beat up over this. It's not like I'M banging her or have any expectation of that. It's just a friggin living arrangement.
I'm lost. I'm doing the best I can and right now I just don't care about that douchebag.
And for the Record, of course she doesn't see the difference between a few drinks and a BJ...
One goes against the 10 Commandments the other...yeah...same diff really...
Too many voices Frank and you can't please them all...so screw all of us and tell us who you want giving you advice, but only if you follow it.
And for the Record, of course she doesn't see the difference between a few drinks and a BJ...
One goes against the 10 Commandments the other...yeah...same diff really...
This is true.
It wasn't a few drinks. It was too many too often. Not a justification for her, just clarifying. I hurt too much for too long.
Too many voices Frank and you can't please them all...so screw all of us and tell us who you want giving you advice, but only if you follow it.
I am grateful for the variety of opinions. I think I have finally gotten to the place where I can sort out the anger vs the constructive ones. Everyone has their good and bad days, and their opinions about them.
I agree with about half the opinions I get from each person. So that makes each one valuable.
Jack, she has paid some consequences for her actions. I could see the hurt in her when she had to admit that what she did was a 'mistake' because I think she has to deal with the fact she also hurt someone else, even though they deserved it. That she did nothing to help I think she has to sort it all out, especially the damage to the girls.
But she's trying. She's a very emotionally damaged person and I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now.
She knows I don't trust her and for whatever reason she wants to change that.
IF that were TRUE, then Michael...how quaint...wouldn't be recieving calls from her.
No [censored] really you were friends before you started having sex and you want to still be friends while you live in the same house as me and you want me to trust you...can you pass the KY I was thinking maybe Michael would want to screw me over as well.
You pay to play. You pay for mistakes. You certainly are, why does she get a free [censored] pass?
( j )
Frank,
: )
One day I hope you become that man you want to be, honest.
Not everything needs to be explained.
Thought so once 25. : )
I don't like giving up.
But you can't always save those who don't want to be saved. ; )
BTW 25 just to clarify...
Any diff with Frank or others in general?
Cause one makes a point the other is just downright mean.
If you mean others in general F yes.
If you mean Frank...no don't think so.
Jack - I love your posts and think you make a great difference (except your posts to LostPhil).
Jack, you are getting sucked in...again...it's minutia...and you've been here before...for a long time. Ever make any real or lasting diff?
( j )
Ok 25, what do you suggest?
1) Kick her to the curb because she still 'talks' to 'Michael' while living with me as per Jack and others?
2) Be appreciative that she is here, being mom, helping with the house and the finances as per You and others?
Instead you discount that as 'minutia'. I dunno, I think it's a pretty difficult decision, don't you?
And I'm sitting here doing my best to do what I think is right, given the personality I'm dealing with.
But "minutia"? "Doesn't want to be saved?"
I think not. I fully expect to prevail and get life on track and more fun. That's a hell of a lot better attitude than I had a week ago. I am the guy who solves hard problems. I save myself, thank you. DESPITE todays issues I am still in a good mood.
I said that he was the spiritual friend she ended up in bed with so that's a little hard to believe. And she replied that he was letting her go and there was no sex involved, they only talk sometimes on the phone.
I told her I had trouble believing her since she has had affairs and they all start out with 'friends'. Her response was that I did the same thing. I said that I never violated my wedding vows and had an affair. She said that I lied to her and ran off with 'a bottle'.
I said that it's not the same as running to another person and violate my wedding vows and she said that it doesn't matter, it was still leaving the marriage for something else. In her opinion they are equivalent.
She said that she had to leave and go through that whole 'dating' thing to realize that it was a mistake to 'get involved with someone' when she hadn't gotten rid of her current relationship. She said "that's my pattern though, and it's wrong". So now she's not getting involved with anyone until we get through 'our' financial difficulties and stabilize our family emotionally. And until she is divorced.
First of all and IMO most important, you shouldnt have even noticed she had her purse with her and you sure as hell shouldnt have asked her anything about it. I mean jesus Frank do we need to tape a big asss sign to her front and back that says Pandoras box?
You see Frank, this conversation should have never even occurred. There's a huge difference between setting your boundaries and rubbing one's face in it. You laid your boundaries, she hasn't broken them, yet you keep talking.
Again I get back to what I have been saying, you really really need to get into the "my marriage is over" frame of mind because I can tell you that I wouldn't have any of these conversations even if God forbid we had to be roomies for a while. You know why I wouldn't have these convos???? Because they are fricken pointless and have absolutely no value to add to my life.
Maybe you need to get in a business mindset and look at your communication with her as an investment, like the stock market.
You would not invest in anything unless you saw dividends and profit right? There is absolutely nothing good that could have happened for you with any of these conversations.
I hope you understand that Jack and 25 are not getting frustrated just because your not perfect. That is not the point. The point is that you yes maam them to death and say you understand that this is about you and only you. Then you go off the beaten path over and over again. If my kid touched a hot oven I would tell them no. Then the next time I would probably raise my voice and explain what harm comes from touching the hot stove. The next time it happens I basically look at them like they are retarded and figure the only way they will learn is by burning the crap out of themselves.
So.... How many times do you need to get burnt before you learn Frank?????? At some point people are going to stop trying to warn you about the consequences and instead laugh as you writhe in pain with an "I told you so" look about them.
Be civil with her for your kids Frank, have those goofy conversations about dinner and such. Anything beyond what she is going to help with at the house or what is needed for the kids is absolutely non value added at this point. Idle chit chat is fine... No conversations about any R stuff or OM unless she violates the boundary that you laid down and even at that point you may want to check here for whether she did or not.
Ian
Jack - I love your posts and think you make a great difference (except your posts to LostPhil).
Sorry Frank,
I was wondering if these posts are still available. I've heard stories about these.
why not?
I gotta see em now.
Do a search under his user-name......
I tried lostphil and cleared the dates and it didn't work.
Dont do it trapt..... if you do find them make sure you have lots of tylenol handy......
I heard he took a beating
First of all and IMO most important, you shouldnt have even noticed she had her purse with her and you sure as hell shouldnt have asked her anything about it. I mean jesus Frank do we need to tape a big asss sign to her front and back that says Pandoras box?
Ok, I'm not arguing about what you are saying in hindsight. I was 'advised' to look for violations of my boundaries and let her know. One was 'no evidence of any affair'. I saw what I thought was evidence, and I verified that she is calling the guy. But I shouldn't have said anything? Ok. I guess I am a slow learner but I get it now.
You see Frank, this conversation should have never even occurred. There's a huge difference between setting your boundaries and rubbing one's face in it. You laid your boundaries, she hasn't broken them, yet you keep talking.
But she did. She calls him. And half the people here say 'let it go' and the other half say 'invite OM to lube you up and bend over'. Ian, this is crazy making.
I choose 'let it go'. I'm much stronger than that. The 'conversation' we had was a 'one off'. Don't need to talk again.
Maybe you need to get in a business mindset and look at your communication with her as an investment, like the stock market.
You would not invest in anything unless you saw dividends and profit right? There is absolutely nothing good that could have happened for you with any of these conversations.
I like that. The Return On Investment is pretty low.
I hope you understand that Jack and 25 are not getting frustrated just because your not perfect. That is not the point. The point is that you yes maam them to death and say you understand that this is about you and only you. Then you go off the beaten path over and over again. If my kid touched a hot oven I would tell them no. Then the next time I would probably raise my voice and explain what harm comes from touching the hot stove. The next time it happens I basically look at them like they are retarded and figure the only way they will learn is by burning the crap out of themselves.
I do understand where they are coming from. What is not coming across in my posts is that I AM attempting to change my dynamic. It's a lot better than it was. Tonight W made a nice dinner and was joking with me and I joked back. No expectations, just an attempt to make peace.
Be civil with her for your kids Frank, have those goofy conversations about dinner and such. Anything beyond what she is going to help with at the house or what is needed for the kids is absolutely non value added at this point. Idle chit chat is fine... No conversations about any R stuff or OM unless she violates the boundary that you laid down and even at that point you may want to check here for whether she did or not.
Sounds like a plan. Thanks Ian.
And, I'm STILL in a good mood.
Yesss!!!!
Frank you Rock!!
as Mr Spock said in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan after he got Khans starship to drop its shields by using the remote access codes to command it to drop them...
"Mr Savek, you just have to know how things work"
Thought so once 25. : )
I don't like giving up.
But you can't always save those who don't want to be saved. ; )
By the way Jack, F--- You. And I mean that in the nicest way
LOL!!
I can't believe some of the things he said and did!
I haven't laughed like that in a while.
No frankd,
I am not suggesting you kick her to the curb at all. I am not talking about your wife. You know that I'm not talking about her at all. I am saying I read your thread back 14 months (and there were plenty more, but I had read enough to make sure I knew your history). To my surprise, I found that you are literally getting the same advice from people and you are saying the same things now that you did then. At times, you are repeating yourself almost word for word. That is a long time to be cycling thru the same loops. Like going on the freeway and never taking an exit.
I'm saying there has been almost no movement in your life, and what movement that has happened, was not initiated by you. You sometimes react, but you do not act. You have been told to GAL > 100 times, but you have not. This is NOT NEW.
Seriously, Frankd, re-read your thread...go back a year, and see where you were and where you are now. Look at what AmyC said to you in January of 2008 (and again in July, and again last week). Read what Jack 3 has said, and TNP said in August, and how you replied then.
Call it "observations" or whatever you want; it's still the same behavior in some form; obsessing, mind reading, snooping or microscopically analyzing or negatively thinking, etc, and you can still say you won't do it anymore!...and it'll all have been said before. That's what I'm saying. You're a smart guy.
But your machinations & ruminations have stalled you into permanent limbo land. By choice. Make no mistake Frankd, this is your choice and has been for a long time. That is what I don't get. You ignored the question earlier but it's really the question. Why do you do this? What do you get out of this?
Surely you don't want to wake up in 10 years talking about whether your w is bringing OM#56 to your grand-kid's baptism...and how you should feel or approach that. Right?
[color:#CC0000][b] That's what I'm saying. Not about your wife or your business or your childhood...but why you choose to engage in the same thought process, and behavioral pattern, or revert to it every time, and yet appear to expect something different? I can't tell if it's pretense, tactical, attention seeking, a form of masochism, or what? I'm baffled. Don't you want to be happy Frankd, even if it means making brave choices all on your own?
A lot of people have tried to help you; including me. But I now believe I'm part of the problem by engaging this way. I am enabling you to stay stuck. No offense Frank, but You aren't "moving" and my posts are exercises in futility. I don't want to be part of the problem Frankd.
( j )
BTW 25 just to clarify...
Any diff with Frank or others in general?
Cause one makes a point the other is just downright mean.
If you mean others in general F yes.
If you mean Frank...no don't think so.
well, I hope Mt Redoubt doesn't cover you in ash. Guess it's great there's no lava...the pics look surreal and oddly beautiful...wacky. But then, that's Alaska.
((( j )))
Frank,
You telling me to F Off will always bring a smile to my face, you poser. : )
Thank 25, I did read the other thread and thanks. The people I respect, I actually care what they think about me.Contrary to what I might say.
Frank, of all things I have said take this to heart...I don't care if you don't take my advice, I don't care if you don't take anyones advice...as long as YOU MOVE FORWARD.
Stop being a rabbit, and you know why I have been hammering you, why I don't believe you, sorry its true...its because you placate people, and post here about the changes you have made...actually more often than not the changes you should make or plan on making...
I am not used to not believing people here. Trust is the coin easiest spent the hardest to hoard.
I don't trust you right now.
Like with my wife I want to be wrong...
Too many things you write remind me of older threads.
Deeds not words, I look forward to being wrong. But again, trust.
Want a clue?
You talk about her and the silly [censored] she does that means nothing...you not moving forward. Adding crazy to the end of it...the crazy one is you, not her.
I'm saying there has been almost no movement in your life, and what movement that has happened, was not initiated by you. You sometimes react, but you do not act. You have been told to GAL > 100 times, but you have not. This is NOT NEW.
I agree with you, I've been stuck most of the time with one exception. Right after W left the house I felt more empowered, and I got more work done and made a bunch of money. I was moving forward. W seemed to be moving in a negative direction and as one of my friends pointed out, when she didn't come 'running back' because I was being successful it wore me down. I think subconsciously I couldn't believe she would stay with OM when she could have ME.
That was the time when I was almost breaking out of the cycle. But I ended up falling back into it again.
Now that W is living in the house I've spent the first few days trying to 'understand' her actions. After yesterday I've given that up. I only need to know that she's here for the girls and that helps them, which helps me.
Yesterday was a hugely productive work day for me. This morning a client who was stressing out called me all happy because I finished their stuff. I felt good about that.
That's the way it was when W first left. I got things done and felt good about myself.
Something Ford told me was that when his W first left and was out having her affairs, the hardest thing was being home alone with the kids. She came back to live in the house for a while and he said it was much easier to detach then because he could see that he didn't like who she had become.
I think I am feeling that way now. I don't like who she has become because of her distorted MORAL choices.
But that doesn't matter. What matters is my life. Tonight is 'Recovery Night' at Calvary Church and I'm going there to meet new people.
I'm working well today and productive. I'm in a good mood and will stay that way.
[b] That's what I'm saying. Not about your wife or your business or your childhood...but why you choose to engage in the same thought process, and behavioral pattern, or revert to it every time, and yet appear to expect something different? I can't tell if it's pretense, tactical, attention seeking, a form of masochism, or what? I'm baffled. Don't you want to be happy Frankd, even if it means making brave choices all on your own?
Yes, I do want to be happy. I have been such a freaking Wuss.
I think my counselor would say it's a form of Codependence. We talked about that last meeting.
I'm committed to breaking it. I started yesterday.
Although I do have one question for you its been bugging the crap out of me.
How can you scold your daughter for not doing her school work when you aren't doing so hot with your client's work?
That would be like me scolding my boys for a dirty room when I have clothes all over mine.
Ring.
Ring.
Ring.
Hello? Hold on a second.
It's the pot Frank...you're black.
Frank,
You telling me to F Off will always bring a smile to my face, you poser. : )
I know, that's why I said it.
I don't trust you right now.
Like with my wife I want to be wrong...
Too many things you write remind me of older threads.
Deeds not words, I look forward to being wrong. But again, trust.
Yeah, I feel so stupid. I'm better than this. I have a plan and I'm sticking to it.
From "Wild at Heart"
The world of posers is shaken by a real man. You must let your strength show up because the world doesn't have a place for it. Fine. The world's screwed up.
Let people feel the weight of who you are and let them deal with it.
I used to believe this. I believe it again.
Although I do have one question for you its been bugging the crap out of me.
How can you scold your daughter for not doing her school work when you aren't doing so hot with your client's work?
That would be like me scolding my boys for a dirty room when I have clothes all over mine.
You don't flunk your class and have to repeat 8th grade if you don't clean your room.
True but the bank forecloses the house if you fail your clients.
Our children, as much as they might not like it, are reflections of what we teach them and show them...sadly they learn much of their failings through following our own.
A true leader leads.
A bad leader directs.
By the way...nice (almost) redirect by choosing the clothes on the floor as the example. Almost a good deflection of the message.
By the way...nice (almost) redirect by choosing the clothes on the floor as the example. Almost a good deflection of the message.
I thought it would work.....
Yes, I do want to be happy. I have been such a freaking Wuss.
I think my counselor would say it's a form of Codependence. We talked about that last meeting.
I'm committed to breaking it. I started yesterday.
That's great Frank. By acknowledging your issue, you've apparently taken the first step. Now what? What's your plan? What are you going to do that's different from what you've been doing?
I remember when my M was in crisis, and I was served with those divorce documents. I realized that it was "now or never". It was not about me understanding or determining when I developed my self-sabotaging issues. I understood that I needed to change my ways, and I knew I needed to change them immediately! But. you can't just snap your finger and expect everything to change, now can you? In my case, I made a list, in my Palm Pilot, of all these things I needed to do, in order to turn my sitch around to (GAL, Stop the Pressuring, Act Happy, Stop being a Wuss, etc.). And I use to look at this list constantly, and especially before any anticipated interaction. I use to repeat it to myself as if it was a mantra, until it started to finally sink in.......
Maybe you can compile a list? Maybe you can share it with us?
Peace.
Focus on my work
Go for walks
BE happy. Fake it till I make it.
Do one 'social' thing per day
accept what is, no analysis by paralysis
Live in today, instead of fear for tomorrow
Spend some time with each of my daughters every day.
Although I do have one question for you its been bugging the crap out of me.
How can you scold your daughter for not doing her school work when you aren't doing so hot with your client's work?
That would be like me scolding my boys for a dirty room when I have clothes all over mine.
Ring.
Ring.
Ring.
Hello? Hold on a second.
It's the pot Frank...you're black.
I have a similar question .. how can you moniter your w movements and moods and have no idea that your daughter hasn't done her HW??
IMHO you are watching the wrong person.
Nutty x
Focus on my work
Go for walks
BE happy. Fake it till I make it.
Do one 'social' thing per day
accept what is, no analysis by paralysis
Live in today, instead of fear for tomorrow
Spend some time with each of my daughters every day.
Your list, just a reminder.
Just got back from buying D18 a new car. She paid $1,000 and I paid the rest ($3,000). She's pretty happy with it.
Still working hard on catching up projects.
She paid $1,000 and I paid the rest ($3,000).
Well if all your other bills are caught up, I reckon that makes sense.
She paid $1,000 and I paid the rest ($3,000).
Well if all your other bills are caught up, I reckon that makes sense.
I took out a short term loan that I can pay off in March. The dealer is a friend of the family and took a 60 day note. It was a compromise.
All right Frank here's what I see:
By your own admission this is child who doesn't do a damn thing around the house unless she is told to.
By your own admission, your finances are shot to hell.
Yet you so want to be the good guy, the hero, that you went into further debt to appease a kid who won't load a f'in dishwasher.
Frank, you didn't do this for her.
You did this for you.
All right Frank here's what I see:
By your own admission this is child who doesn't do a damn thing around the house unless she is told to.
By your own admission, your finances are shot to hell.
Yet you so want to be the good guy, the hero, that you went into further debt to appease a kid who won't load a f'in dishwasher.
Frank, you didn't do this for her.
You did this for you.
Your point is well taken.
She paid $1,000 down which was all she had. I'm making her pay $200 per month until it's paid off. She earns about $400 per month babysitting. We got a car worth about $5,000 for $3,500.
I thought it was a good compromise.
Loading the dishwasher without being told to for the next few months while earning another thou would have taught her a better lesson but that was your call to make.
So your insurance went up how much and who is paying for that?
You can just answer to yourself.
Better yet, you should go get to work on those projects.
Frank, you need to hold her accountable to that payment. If she misses a payment she has to have consequences and you need to clearly lay them out ahead of time. IMO it should be something along the lines of no pay...no drive.
I also get that your thinking by march you will have more income because of closing out jobs, and this should be tremendous incentive to work even harder right now.
I am not so sure about the whole placating thing, I personally believe that people go at their own pace and some take longer than others to push through the brick wall. I guess when you get sick and tired of your head bleeding you will do so.
One thing that strikes me however is this. Your wife still seems to be on your mind way to much. I don't think it matters that she is being civil. You and I have had this discussion and I will say it again here. She is being pleasant and amicable because it makes being there with you easier. Who the hell wants to live in drama in their home. No one... So she plays house and is pleasant because it makes things easier for her, you, and your kids. So let it go, enjoy the fact that it's not a battle every day and silence at the dinner table. Play nice if it makes things more copasetic at home.....
Hey Jack.....F you........ sorry man but I just wanted to know how it feels to have huge, gigantic, elephantitus balls.....
Ian
Hey heavy hitters, I know that Frankie boy needs us right now, but could some of you hop over to Surviving and read Ping1's post and offer some of that advice that can only come with time and experience. I would really appreciate it......
Ian