Thanks for taking the time to lend your advice, I also came across your's and zelda thread about abuse and am in the middle of going through it - great resource!
as far as I can I give my view and stay away from advice. As someone further down the road then I want to make others more aware. Abuse is an important element and a resource is important. In some sitches abuse isn't core in others it appears to be. I think your sitch is one of those.
I'm going to respond/ask some more questions about your post, but for now a lot has transpired in the last 2 days and I want to journal it while it is fresh in the mind.
Yesterday, the W ask me if there is anything I want to talk about, after talking for more than 45 minutes little was resolved, much of the convo mirrored the one that transpired the night before. When I tried to explain my feelings on the lack of remorse for the false police reports and the TRO her response was that she was justified and that I was lucky thats as far as it went.
Now you know and can never unknow. An illegal act, one which to most of us is reprehensible and it's ok in her eyes. This is a behaviour that could repeat and be justified by W. What else could she justify?
She did not elaborate at the moment, nor did ask that she elaborate at the time. We ended the convo w/ somewhat of an agreement that communication needed to happen and that if either of us have a feeling/ issue it is worth mentioning and should be received by the other... I did not feel she was fully on board w/ this notion and she stopped the convo by saying she had to leave, I asked where she was going, she said yoga class and then work.
She disengaged.
Later that night she got off work, called and talked (non R talk) for close to the entire 30 min. it takes her to get home. When she got home she kissed me, pretty much acted as normal, I was not cold but did not initiate any affection towards her.
She normalised.
Today I asked her:
M:Can you elaborate what you meant when you said "Your lucky I only did the TRO" W: My bothers wanted to come after you. (they have rap sheets that include murder/attempted murder and so on)
This is very frightening stuff on face value alone. This is a family who will do the illegal and immoral as an every day thing. And W is casual about it. Normalised. Gave me the chills, and triggered as I have been at this point too. It's serious, very serious.
M: That does not surprise me, do me a favor... tell them to name a time and a place. You see, I do not fear them and I'm pretty sure you know that. What does concern me false police reports/TRO and your lack of remorse for them.
My thoughts too. However going head to head and issuing challenges to those who could seriously hurt you is dangerous and unnecessary.
These guys have been this way as the norm since childhood and you can't compete with that. Do you really want your children brought up in this family? Be safe for your kids.
The G told me that he would be better off if I were dead and he would make sure no one knew. This isn't what a loving partner does or says and it is based on making you heal by fear. This type of convo is haunting and sticks with you. You may need IC to put it into context as soon as.
W: F that, I already told I'm not going there. M: Well that is a problem and I do not see how we are going to go forward when you are going to take that stance. So heres what I suggest, your lease is not up for another 4 days, keep your apartment and move back into it. I know you are in financial trouble and can't afford to do so, I'll pay to set you up again. Its not what I want, but I do not see any other options at this point.
Absolutely and I think well done.
W: You backed me into a corner, I had to do the TRO, you were going to frame me for abandonment of my kids, you know me and my upbringing, you back me into a corner and I'll strike.
So she would do it again without hesitation.
M: I never took any steps to get between you and the kids or try to frame you for abandonment. W: You told me you took pictures of the house after I moved all my stuff out, I know you were going to use those to try and frame me for abandonment. M: Ok, I will clarify this AGAIN, when did you take 100% of your stuff out of the house? The day you tried to take the kids. I called the lawyer to get advice on the kids, when the lawyer heard that you 100% moved your stuff out he advised me to take the pictures. Why, because you had already called the police on me 3 times and for my own protection you needed to leave the house, and since you took all your stuff you voluntarily forfeited your residence in it. If you think back I told you all this when you moved back in the night before the TRO, I informed you about the pics to let you know I had the legal right to ask that you not come back till things cool down.
W is mind reading because this would be what she would do, she assumes its you too. Projecting. The earlier impact of your first words are getting diluted. Too much info on your L and D strategy.
Cards, chest, close any order.
W: Well that was my perception, you were going to frame me for abandonment.
She left, it's a fact. The G tried this one and said I threw him out. He tried to get an order to move back in.
This is where it definitely could have stopped the convo. Do you want to be right or at peace? The facts speak for themselves, she knows, you know and she absolutely is twisting in the wind.
The rest is point scoring on both of your parts. Seems typical marital argument.
M: You just nailed it, "PERCEPTION"! why did you have to rely on perception... because you refused to communicate. I tried my hardest to communicate with you, so much so that it was a fault. But what ever the case it was still only a perception, not a reality, not justified. W: Well my L warned me that what you were going to do. M: BS, you did not have a lawyer at that point. W: yes I did M: No you did not, I am certain of it, my L called YOU to inform you of the EX-Parte (emergency) hearing for the TRO. If you had a L, my L could not of legally contacted you. If you are going to claim someone put that in your head that would be your para legal friend gave you that bad advice, the same person that helped you prepare/submit the TRO. W: What does that matter, do you really want to go there, do you really want to bring my friends into it again, see where that gets you. M: Your friends played a big part in this, but you are right, it doesn't matter cause at the end of the day it was YOU who took these actions. W: This is so ridicules, it all boils down to sex, you did not get laid and decided to pick a fight, why did you not bring the TRO up another time, instead waited till you did not get laid.
All distraction and noise. And it's protocol I think re the L. L to L is protocol, but I am nit picking.
M: Ok, I'll say it again, Yes the other night I wanted to talk about sex, my stance on it at that point was that it was maybe something that we had to work up to and that I should be patient, I wanted to ask you what your feelings were. Did you still see me as a brother, is there anything I could do to help? Instead of talking like a functioning M couple you demeaned me, made it sound like I was the one that had the problem, connected it to the past - said you would not go backwards/discuss the past, and told me if I did so "I was going to ruin a good thing". That is how we got into this mess in the first place - lack of communication, an unwillingness/inability to address our issues. It reminded me of your stance prior to the TRO, and since you said you would not discuss any of our past, I wanted to let you know that would be a problem for me as I have yet to hear from you how wrong those actions were.
you both have views, but this is distracting from the TRO. W sidetracked you with a hot button. This is an MC style discussion. However MC with an abuser or a wayward just makes them cleverer about their tactics and gives them a way of justifying and triangulating.
W: Why are we doing this, we could be having a nice lunch out enjoying one another and the day.
Normalising and dismissing. Trying to distract you with future faking. Temptation awaits.
M: Do you really think I would be able to sit and enjoy my lunch/our time out together after to my surprise finding out the day before you don't care about how I feel about the TRO, thanks but I'll pass on that lunch date.
great, you stayed on track. The TRO is one thing but having no concern or remorse about it is quite another.
W: The whole thing was F'd up, I'll say I'm sorry for the the sitch as a whole, but I'm not going to sit here and say I am sorry for the TRO. M: What are you a politician now, that is not going to work for me. W: What, I said I am sorry.
At this point she reverses her tack she knows you have it nailed and you are nicely making your point. Excellent. She knows you aren't fooled considering her early stance. And sorry for the sitch is validating your concern a little. At this point she hasn't understood the TRO is a major barrier, that's because it isn't for her!
M: I need to know that you are truly remorseful for it, only then will I have the security of not having to worry that it is going to happen again.
Absolutely
W: It will not happen AGAIN!!!! I gotta go.
Normalising M: Where are you going? W: To go clean the apartment. (For final walkthrough)
Testing M: Are you kidding me, we are moving you back in there ASAP. (Wife gathering her work stuff to leave- she did not have to work for another 5 hours)
Normalising
W: I never would of moved back in if I knew how insecure you still are, instead of being a man and dealing w/ your issues, you are going to let them destroy this relationship.
Deflecting and trying to hit a sore spot as she did with the sex issue above.
M: Wrong, I stand here today more of a man than I ever was, there is nothing you can say to discount that. These last few months have been the most formative in my life, I have owned and addressed most of my issues, some are still a work in progress. I am confident that the issue at hand has nothing to do my deficits/issues, I am not wrong in what I am asking of you, I really think deep down you know that, better if you stopped here
and that is why you refuse to go to a MC, because you know what they will say about your actions.
you can't use MC as a threat to beat her up. MC won't work unless both want it to. It's not there to prove a point.
W: Fine I'll go, but you are going to have to find a way to make more money to pay for it.....
Well you got her to agree but resentfully going is that helpful?
Silence.... W: or maybe I'll have to get another job to pay for it............... What are we going to do if we go, take in a long list of all the things I've done wrong and demand apologies? M: I'm pretty sure you know that is not how it works, but yes it is going to require that we both own our part in this... what ever that may be. And that is the thing, I would do anything for this family - if that means going to MC and getting a new one torn then so be it, are you willing? W: Set it up M: Great, consider it done,
not sure this is helpful way at all. Your sitch you know best. I doubt MC is going to change her attitude on the TRO. It might encourage her to say it has, would that be genuine.
meanwhile I still think that its a good idea that we move you back into your apartment. W: Are you going to let me take x, y,& Z? M: Take it all! W: What about the mattresses? (When she moved out she bought new mattresses, so when she moved back in we discarded all the mattresses and replaced w/ the new ones). M: Take them, I told you I would help get you set back up. W: You realize you are backing me into a corner again, and you know what happens then... I strike! M: How are you backed into a corner, you have an apartment to go to, I said I would help you get set back up! Are you listening to yourself! I think you should just leave, go to a park, go on a hike, reflect on what has been said, maybe confront some of your demons. Silence, W still gathering work clothes things for the day before she leaves. M: So well start moving you back in tomorrow.
This part of the convo is excellent for both of you.
W: I don't know, I'm not going to give you an apology just because you demand it. M: I agree, I don't want lip service, it needs to be heart felt.... Heres the thing, as I asses the sitch, I see that not only are you not remorseful, you think I am crazy for expecting remorse. You are a far ways off from even approaching remorse. W: Like I said, I'm not going to say it because you demand it.
You nailed it. And she too is correct, she feels justified in her actions and without saying so could choose to do that again. Now you know. And so does she.
M: Yeah, well sounds like you got a lot to think about.
Unnecessary. Leave her room to leave.
She proceeds to walk out the door. M: goodbye, ILY
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My view is you may have just saved your sanity or even your life. From this point with W then you will walk on egg shells. Take the threats seriously, relay those thoughts to your L.
Stay safe. Your children need you.
I am going to check in.
Big hugs Clyde. This was a very tough thing to do and you did what you needed to do for you and your kids. That's becoming a man only a fool would leave.
You faced the truth. Now you know you can't unknow.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Vanilla her lying has gotten worse and W has accused me of some serious things to people but like they say everything comes out.
it does sometimes in unexpected ways but it does.
W has lied to her own lawyer telling her S9 is biologically her son and d9 and s8 was my biologically my kids but my lawyer clarified that to her lawyer I have all original adoption paperwork they all adopted. That's another lie
That is a stupid idiotic and strange lie. Fantasy land lie . Billy liar type lie!
So so obvious!
and latest saying I open CC in her name and officer ask how I got her identity information W claims I was a ex roommate...
it would be easier if you were! For you.
Wow we have 3 cc joint which we open in 2011 and we both in account and we where together from 2007 till 2017 so not sure how she thinks that way when I have over 10 cc my credit cards W was a authorized user
I hope no more?
and she rack them up and when I try to call they told me am still responsible even if W was using but again a little to late before I seen what W was doing I had heard worse cases but W took 20,000 savings and cc rack up and I could do anything bit take to civil court but it would have cost me more paying lawyers so I suck it up and said lesson learn.
Yes, me too.
W uses the police dept for everything W feels untitled due to military back ground and her education she always feels she is better than everyone which is sad.
horrible, horrible, horrible
But I will keep protecting my kids and myself.
yes, as the evidence builds the truth will out and it's stranger than W fiction!
Hugs
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
So... I don’t even know where to begin. I feel like I ducked up. I also feel like I did the right thing and I only feel like I ducked up because of XWs rage. I don’t know what to think anymore TBH. A years worth of this make me question myself all the time. I’d appreciate some honest feedback.
Do my best. Dealing with rage is one of my issues too.
Cupcakes at school were awkward. XW texted me with lots of exclamation points beforehand demanding to know what I was bringing. I didn’t respond to those texts. D was happy, XW kept trying to (positively) engage me but I said a total of five words to her the whole time I was there.
So far so good
Left school and went to my C appointment. I felt good when I was done with that and GF was actually next door (her mother was buying a car) so I got to have lunch with her and her parents. GF and I leave lunch and are driving to my house. It’s about 3:45. We’re a mile from my house and I see XW and D. No idea why she would be there. XW would have gotten D by 3:10 and where XW was parked is between school and my house and not the way she would normally drive home.
Set up hijack move.
I don’t stop. My phone rings and it’s D asking me to come back and see her. I explain that I can’t, that I love her, and will see her on Sunday.
Right approach, you avoided a set up for triangulation.
D is clearly upset but I tell her to have a good time with mommy. Then the texts start. Typos are hers not mine I’m copy pasting.
Thank you this is helpful
XW: EastTN I don’t care if you were GF if you were the [censored] president you don’t do that baby like it
Word salad. At this point disengage, turn your phone off. This is a sign of decompensating and deterioration. Never engage with word salad.
Me: You may have noticed that I never involve GF in your parenting time.
No need to explain, she is not listening.
Also short visits like that can cause D to get upset.
She knows this that's why she does it. Then she will blame you.
Enjoy your weekend.
XW: I know it upsets her more the fact that you couldn’t stop for two seconds to give her a hug and GF could keep her ass in the truck just saying that is a sorry ass excuse! do not even
Set up
XW: She seen you I didn’t I could care two shits about GF but when this baby wants to see you for two seconds to get a hug and say hey the least you could do is act like she is here instead of making that one that’s in your passenger seat right now more Important I do not appreciate D getting upset because she seen you and you can not even stop and wave at her or say hi to her or anything that is a sorry ass excuse. Don’t even try to say it’s because you have GF with you because it’s taking away my parenting time it’s not if she wanted to see you I would bring her to see you but no someone is far more important As soon as you don’t have D around. Get your priorities straight! You are not in the right with this that’s for sure!
yes, it's a set up to spoil your R with your gf. It's a triangulation position D or gf?
Me: Feel free to drop her off and I’ll keep her the weekend. I know who the most important person In The world is and that’s D. And that means she gets to have her time with you on the weekend. Without me. Without anyone from my life that could be confusing to her especially given your living situation. No matter how much I might want to see her.
You took the bait.
Please do not text me back unless D needs something.
You have no control over exW. How about I am switching off my phone now instead.
XW: How dare you bring up my living situation it is not a situation it is a relationship and OM loves her more than I would’ve ever thought possible at least he is not afraid of a seven -year-old that would not hurt a fly like that little Miss priss GF that’s in your seat right now. You say that D is more important but you not even waving at her or stoppingand telling her that you cannot come back to see her shows her Who is more important that’s why I’m telling you what you did Just now was not OK that is a sorry ass excuse do not bring up who I live with or how I live to justify how you just hurt that Ds feelings! Period!
If you had turned off your phone, this would have stopped this short. This is in your control to stop by ceasing engagement.
XW: Now take your poor excuses and sit on them this weekend while D is upset and mad and I make her feel better bc she seen how you did her! I sure do hope when GF is around and you have D you don’t do her that way!
And later, when D would normally call:XW: Normally I’d make D call you but I just asked her and she said you make her feel bad. So I’m sorry I will not make her tonight
sadly she will do this. Don't give her the opportunity to rage. Disengage.
So... am I an ass? Did I screw up? Have I done the wrong thing? I don’t feel like I can tell sometimes anymore. Is she right? I’m not looking for validation here just honesty. I feel like trash again.
this stuff is the hardest to deal with. It's a set up. So disengage with W. When you see them on the road, Wave cheerfully and drive on. Turn your phone off. Those are my thoughts.
V
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Thanks very much for the support and advice. I feel stupid for engaging, but at least I'll say that what I posted above is ALL I said. The only button she can push these days seems to be "I think you're a bad father" and even though that's not true, it still pushes me to respond. I'd like to think that this is enough to get me out of that mode for good.
I felt better when I woke up the next day. I knew there was no good response, that ANYTHING I did in that situation would have been wrong, and strangely that made me feel better.
I'm going to talk with both my C and my L about what steps to take, here. I've "known" that she's been alienating, but my strategy has been "be the sane, stable one" and that doesn't seem to be enough anymore. I've started reading up on what to do as well.
Quote:
Just reading her posts, and I don't mean this to sound offensive, but she sounds either highly unstable, or highly uneducated, as if you would see her on Maury.
A good friend of mine told me, "This is what you get for marrying someone who has been on Jerry Springer." I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. By the time I found out about that bit of her past, I was highly invested emotionally in both her and D, and went along with the "I just did it for the free trip and the money, all of it was fake" explanation.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
So you found out or you suspect your spouse is cheating. Your happy M is gone and the world is bleak. Or like V you were hoping that the wayward would find a new target and go, you waited for this happy day to come for freedom.
What your wayward does next may constitute serious abuse. Not all A are abuse and not all infidelity is abusI've to this extent.
Covert infidelity is betrayal of every type, sometimes overt infidelity can be flaunted to hurt.
There comes a point when infidelity is uncovered and sometimes denied, what comes next is the worst of it. The betrayal is your fault and as the faithful spouse you are going to suffer. Even if you want an abuser gone then you are to suffer the same fate for rejecting the abuser.
Standard fare
The wayward meets another wayward, they get flattered and are validated. They are King or Queen of the heap. They change the way they dress, they work out and they primp and preen. Feel good about themselves and their nethers frizzle. They may travel. They may hide it. And the lies start, the EA, the dreaming of waywardness. They make a choice to go wayward. Eventually knickers fall off and drinks are drunk. Overnights are managed. It begins. You may not know until the last step of this process if the wayward is really wiley but you will know.
Sometimes a real abuser may cheat serially and covertly. You may choose to stick your head in the sand but part of you knows.
At this stage another choice is made sex, the physical act; unprotected sex is physical abuse if the wayward is also sleeping with you. Vindictive spouses may even sleep with both spouse and OP in the same evening.
There will be texting, emailing and covert calls. Secrets.
This is about how awful the wayward feels about themselves, they are insignificant to themselves. Small failures in attention have undermined their ego and their issues have not been addressed in any meaningful way. Instead of working on themselves and their M the wayward is weak and chooses the path of abuse by infidelity and affairs. A walkaway will warn and warn until walking or running is the only choice for them. Usually they walk with dignity and aim to leave the least damage. Not so the wayward abuser they love this sh@t it makes them feel powerful.
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So how does this abuse pattern work?
Let the wayward speak to you their thoughts in the steps they occur
Step 1 My LBS is a terrible person.
This waywardness is wrong and I, the wayward know it’s wrong. I feel guilty and ashamed or maybe I just don't care if this is my second or third time. Society, friends and my family of origin may be shocked. But I want to continue the waywardness. This isn’t about the OP but about me. The cheating could involve an addiction such as porn, strippers, or online Tinder browsing (that attention makes me feel great). I intend to continue that way of life. I prefer it, it’s exciting. It’s said men cheat from below the waist and women above the neck. For this minute I must play ‘normal’ and ‘usual’ so that I can enjoy this secret that I have, it adds a certain frisson and extra spice. In due course when I have established this then I am entitled to my wayward ways and need not hide my A (unless this is a fault state in which case I may need to be covert).
It is my right after all.
The LBS must be at fault for all my misery! The LBS has got old, ugly, fat, boring and inept whilst I am the prize catch. The LBS has lost their lustre compared to the new shiny thing that I am involved with.
This is all the LBS fault they made me feel this way, they caused this. They are the origin of my misery, it has nothing to do with me.
Step 2 I never ever loved the LBS
My marriage is a sham, it always has been, I have always been unhappy. And it is all the LBS fault, they have no say in it because these are my feelings of unhappiness.
I didn’t want to get M in the first place and besides the LBS was never good enough and I crossed my fingers when taking my vows so it doesn't count,
I am entitled to better.
I am suffering every day in a loveless marriage.
Sex is awful or a chore.
I feel unsure of the OP and so until I get something even better I may want to hedge my bets. The LBS may not know but the OP does as they are my soul mate and I can’t get enough.
I have to start to let others know about my unhappiness and prepare the ground so that I get support by leaking my unhappiness to friends and relatives. Others need to see how awful the LBS is. I must seek to validate my way out.
I can gaslight, manipulate and I have no responsibility as that lies with the LBS. My A or EA Is Justified as the LBS is so awful.
I take drugs or use alcohol or I have another addiction and it’s because i am so miserable and it’s the LBS fault.
Step 3 The LBS has to be punished and made to see its their fault
I have suffered so much, it’s the LBS fault and they must be punished.
No more sex, money, love, respect and of course they don’t deserve the children.
The LBS does not deserve fair treatment and the law will see it that way ; which is my way of thinking, the LBS is nothing.
Perhaps they shouldn’t have housing or money.
If the resources are the LBS then then I deserve the lions share for having put up with some much awfulness. D is going to be acrimonious and I am great at that and it could be long and drawn out or perhaps it will be faster to put the LBS out of their misery and deny them resources. I get a better result.
The LBS is going to taken by surprise, I have been planning this with the support of another wayward and we are clever. The LBS is on the back foot, They are shocked and in denial they may appease me and that’s useful to me. I can take advantage of that and any promises. I will win at all cost. Perhaps I can get the OP and the LBS to compete for me, that would be fun and ego boosting.
Step 4 The LBS must accept it’s their fault
I have to maintain status and I deserve and need status, I want the LBS to accept responsibility. The LBS may have a never ending list of failings the LBS must resolve. The LBS could try to improve to save the M but it’s too far gone and it will keep the LBS occupied, they deserve to improve for their own benefit. The guilt is enormous and the LBS caused this, the LBS is distressed and they have no right to be. I have that right because I am in the right.
My behaviour is getting worse and I am starting to decompensate whilst also trying to maintain face. I will win.
I can rage and get very angry. Sometimes it's deliberate.
My feelings project onto the LBS and it’s unpleasant for the LBS but they deserve it and it releases me from my guilt.
Maybe the LBS should be arrested as a tactic for control or perhaps I need to get in first with a non molestation order or an OoP. That would truly vindicate me in everyone's eyes.
Step 5 I deserve a new life but the LBS doesn’t
The LBS may have the kids, but not if I have to pay for it. The LBS deserves nothing in divorce and I will want to deprive the LBS of resources. I will seek the best divorce settlement for me and my new life with my sweetie.
The LBS must accept this, be controlled, the LBS is a pawn. The children are an extension of the LBS and must also be part of the great unhappiness that I feel. The kids are my greatest weapon.
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All of this is all justified on the altar of the my new life.
For I am wayward and I choose to be so.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
