Another interaction with W yesterday when picking up D9.
The DBing is in my head when alone but not made it to my heart - I am not controlling my emotions. A kiss when arriving and with a hug when leaving...so far from detached and it comes across as desperate and needy pursuit. The most I should do is a peck on the cheek and even that may be too much at this stage.
I am also asking too many questions about her and how and what she is doing. A lot of this comes from trying to catch her lies about where and what she is doing. I don’t know how to detach when I am trying to figure out the extent of her lying. Maybe detachment is to go past caring what the hell she doing and how she can justify it to herself - trying to figure it out will test my sanity and so it is best if I don’t bother. I need to admit to myself that the woman I knew as my wife has gone and may never return and it is her decision to decide which path to take. Letting go is really really hard.
She still seems interested in telling me a bit about any progress (or lack of) there has been around changes she wants to make in herself. She told me she is putting on weight and she is the heaviest she has ever been, I said it didn’t matter, then I get ‘you’ve been telling me I’m fat for 10 years stop saying it doesn’t matter’. WTF? That is a huge rewrite of history - I have only ever tried to support her In her efforts to lose weight when she wanted to. I cannot believe she truly believes this is an accurate representation of history. Her newer group of friends must think I’m a monster. I tried to validate as much as possible - ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’, ‘I understand that you feel this way’, ‘I cannot change the past’. It helped us move away from the subject quickly.
D9 seemed distant and sad when I picked her up. We had a lovely afternoon and evening with family. I want to make sure the time she spends with me is the thing she looks forward to the most albeit in circumstances that are making her sad.
Anyway, I know the interaction with W has not helped. How much more damage it has caused, I don’t know. Maybe I am past caring...I guess if I was truly past caring, then I wouldn’t be making these mistakes.
Hi Sandi, I thought you were uncertain if she was WW? Oh well probably best to assume she is at this point,
Yeah it’s been like that lately, the only talks between us have been her requesting info on my son. Getting annoyed with it and should stop doing it. The one day I didn’t send a pic she completely ignored me the next day.
I’m actually getting to a pretty good level of detachment. I find myself not even caring what she is up to or when we have a negative interaction. It feels a lot easier not to think about her when I don’t see her all the time.
I’ve started dating though, once again just for fun, I have 0 intention of a relationship at this point. There are definitely pluses and minues to this situation with more positives coming out when the separation began. Hopefully going out on first date tomorrow night.
W FaceTimed and texted 2 separate times today just for update on our S. I’m thinking I will create a boundary next time that I have him. Thanks
Big conversation with W tonight. She initiated it so I accepted.
I validated throughout. She says she wants to accelerate IHS. To move forward - that we had been stagnated. I validated and said if that's what she wants I will do my part in making that happen - even though it's not what I want.
She said she wanted us both to be comfortable in the house until a decision is made on whether I can keep it. When she asked, I told her I will make an appointment at the bank to see if this is possible.
W seemed more lucid tonight - mentioned that I hadn't been around and that she hadn't actually seen or talked to me in a few weeks. (DBing). She said she wanted me to feel like I belonged in the house. I told her I'd been picking up extra hours at work and keeping busy.
W is still questioning her decision. But she is also pushing herself more to make her decision to leave. Which is so odd.
When she tried to rehash the R, I politely and calmly told her I didnt want to do that, she said it is over and I have accepted what she told me. I told her I am not fighting, there will be no fighting, I want calm.
Then some conciliatory conversation about our daily lives. First time.ive seen her smile in 9 months. First time she laughed at one of my lame jokes in 9 months. But I am very certain now that she will be leaving.
1. God's and our time is not the same. I don't think he was saying no, but she had to come to the right place mentally herself.
2. God never violates free-will. That's why I never advocate praying to make someone's spouse do something. Like come back, etc. God let's us choose for ourselves.
Right, that's what I was trying to say. She had to be somewhere first (late late replay stage???)..... so the takeaway to me is, at the beginning it doesn't matter what the LBS does, they can't attract the W no matter what. It has to be near the end of replay at the earliest for an LBS to have any effect. The danger being if you're too ugly and communication is cut off near the beginning, they will never see what changes are made and that you're attractive now (near the end of Replay). You end the game early before you've played your hand. That's a bad move (IMO). You have to be nice and communicative... and be 100% consistent on changes (and do them for yourself, not her). To me that means a year at least before you have any hope of her noticing ANYTHING. Would that be correct?
Yes free-will is the choice of the MLC/WW..... but what I was getting at is, God doesn't make choices for you but he does influence and allow people to see/understand (and often puts just the right person in the mix to influence someone for good). That is sooooo powerful. I'd be very curious if many of the ones who did make it back.... was their H standing in the gap for them and praying continually for their W (and I don't mean "God please have her come back"..... I mean, "God I love my W... please help her. I want her to be happy no matter what. More than anything, please draw her back to you"). That's what I'm talking about. I also believe God doesn't like D, and will do anything he can to help prevent it and heal the two people. Sometimes that means MR, sometimes the people are too damaged and the adulterer will suffer the consequences for the rest of their life (I've seen it). Vows are not something to mess around with. A heart's yearnings to return home, realization of losing their one true love, or something else.... placed by God is a powerful motivation. People CAN still choose to not obey, that's free-will. But I don't think God is a silent witness to the tragedy by any means.
FS, the plaster comparison is so descriptive. I think I've seen what you are referring to in your writings. You have each taken steps back and put up walls throughout this process to protect yourselves after the dust started to settle post BD. Simultaneously, at times you have each been kinder to one another in a nod to the difficulties you're experiencing. But to take a step forward it seems (from the outside) that neither of you are ready, or wanting that at this time.
If I had to guess purely as an outsider I would guess this is because you have each been hurt and you are not sure if you can move past the hurt without the other making the first move towards apologies. Right now I'm not sure I see either of you doing that. In your mind and where you are at - would this fall to him? Without him making this move/apology do you see yourself walking away?
I ask with no ulterior motive of course, and I don't know that I can say what is best. Just trying to feel you out to see where you are.
Sometimes I wonder if the "complete break" (D, moving, or whatever) is needed for a couple so that the WAS can feel they are making a fresh start with the LBS - not an apology. To potentially come back together after being definitively DONE is a different conversation and experience than to come back with a more 'active" guilt in a murky situation. I'm not sure I am explaining my thoughts clearly, but it is something I'm ruminating on. You and H see each other too much to step out of the murky, though I agree it is out of necessity for the girls.
Once again, I must say how beautifully I feel you two are coparenting.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I spoke to a friend about this the other day. He feels that there is still hope for us. But that there are great big trust issues on both sides, and a shed load of guilt on his. He also thinks that I am at a cross roads. Looking at two paths and trying to decide which is best for me. By not being transparent with him about the dating, I am hoping to keep both paths alive until I know what is going on. By keeping things from me my H is doing the same (I suspect this is another way of saying cake eating). But it is interesting that it was framed in such a way that I came across as cake eating too.
He feels it is time to have the R talk. There are too many things unsaid, too many assumptions and too much distrust. Neither of us can make a decision because we do not know what the facts are. He things my H assumes I have moved on. I assume my H has moved on.
I do not know. I will need to think about it some more.
I don't disagree with your friend necessarily, but I agree with you that you need more time to consider this.
Well Curtis, you know you messed up, but what concerns me is that you don't care that you messed up. I'm not going to beat you up about it, but I will point out a few places simply b/c you didn't seem to have a clue about how she tried to show you she wasn't into what you were doing.
Call me crazy, but I don't see it very manly to ask your WW for a hug. Neither do I agree that a LBH way to his WW's heart is by showing his vulnerability to her. Just isn't what makes her go for him.
The minute you placed your hand in her hair and behind her neck, she immediately knew you were going to make a move she didn't welcome. How do I know? B/c touching her hair and putting your hand behind her neck are intimate touches. It instantly put her on guard. That's why she said, "What are you doing?"
H: Can I have a hug? W: Sure...did you have a good birthday?
Can you see how it makes you appear weak? If not, then you won't learn from it. A husband has to appear strong to the WW, not weak, not vulnerable, and not needy. If the H shows he is vulnerable, then she feels she has to be the stronger one......and that's not what women want in their MR. The W wants a H who is stronger than she is.
It seems she tried to be nice, while turning the direction she saw this going by distracting you. So, she brings up the subject of your birthday.
H: It was different and it was hard...but I enjoyed the time with the kids (I placed my hand in her hair behind her head and gently pulled her towards me)
Were you trying to get her sympathy, while still moving in for more physical touch?
H: What are you thinking? (after a few seconds and moving apart slightly with my arms still wrapped around her lower back)
Just bad all the way around.
W: We’re not there yet.
Enough said! That is all the woman needed to say. Was the message received? You tell me.
H: I understand, we miss you (while looking her in the eyes).
What is it you understood? That she didn't welcome the physical touching, or you prying into her thoughts? When you saw she wasn't going along with you, is that when you decided to lay a big ole guilt trip on her?
W: Who’s we? H: Me and the kids. W: They get to see me.
H: You’re right they do. It’s late, you better go (still holding her in my arms and pulling her into me, she was not falling into me, I could tell it was not the time to press further, so I let her go)
When did you finally realize it was not the time to press further. Look Curtis, this is your W and you should be able to read her better than this. I get that her wayward mindset has thrown you, but come on. The second she asked what you were doing......you should have dropped her like a hot potato.
I said I wouldn't beat you up. So, this is me not beating you up, okay? Seriously, I want you to see what I'm trying to show you here. I don't think this interaction could be considered as her throwing you breadcrumbs.......not from my viewpoint, b/c at this particular time you were pursuing very strongly.......and told us you didn't care. Do you care that you'll have to work twice as hard to convince her she's lost you? Cause that's what it will take for her to even start to be interested.
So the W keeps texting me the last 2 days, i haven't responded. First was about getting rid of an old couch that she was responsible for and asking me stuff she already knew. Then today asking me how we were going to handle cleaning the place for move out and another about notarizing the divorce papers. Which I won't be doing since she took it upon herself to modify our agreement by taking something that was mine. If I get it back, then fine I'll do it. But if not, then there is no agreement to get notarized.
So I sent W the message about me feeling dismissed and disrespected and that if that behavior continues will put an end to the conversation. I told her that cornering me at little league was wrong and if it happens again I will walk away.
She replied that she isn’t mad and will wait for me to initiate communications once I’m feeling better. In Talking about divorce at little league that was what I wanted, more inperson communications and she was just obliging what I wanted to be nice.
I’m confused, this is placing responsibility on me for communicating again. Her message to me did not in any way acknowledge my feelings or desire to improve communication between us. Total invalidation.
Previous me would have tried to get her to see it my way by repeating myself with emphasis on the things I think are important. That would not work but now I can actually see that.
I’m interested to hear some thoughts on handling this in a healthy way. My goal is good healthy communication. I feel like I’m hitting my head against a wall right now. This is likely because I’m still emotionally attached in every way. I really want the closure that will never come. She can affect my mood in every word. In person is especially hard. I want to ask so badly what the F she is thinking and how blowing up our family for selfish reasons is right in her mind. I won’t but I want to.
Hahaha..... just drove home from Costco with CMM while he played me an album of Bertie Higgins (of Key Largo sappy early 80's songs). Thank god he didn't ask me what I thought of it because I'm pretty sure he would have taken offense at sappy. I was listening to Devo and X when that album came out. Complete opposites of the spectrum hahaha.
I highly doubt we can survive D without selling this house. I don't like to project too far into the future, but that is the reality. We stretched ourselves thin to buy this house 2 years ago, knowing full well the first year we would be in the red on cash-flow. Now we are probably even.
There's the weird piece about my W going back to work here. Right now she is FT SAHM. But she has the capability of earning money, either PT or FT, and I imagine that would be accounted for should we go to trial. Long-term if I make X and she makes Y, I am working off the assumption we each should be getting (X+Y)/2 especially if custody is 50/50.
There is a scenario where my W decides to keep the house and works her tail off to maximize Y so she can afford it. Also I am aware that this is going to be a pain because her income will ramp up each year so we'll have to go back to the courts every year to readjust. It will have to be based off tax returns. It will be a huge pain and I will probably end up getting the short end of the stick for awhile as a result.
It's pretty simple math though. If X is just enough to pay for a house, then for (X+Y)/2 to work, W would need to make Y. Which is impossible. She could liquidate some assets and maybe swing it. I don't know.
I guess the point is... there is no way that I am going to keep this house. Nor would I really want to, quite honestly. It's big, isolated, will require a lot of maintenance over the years. Beautiful home, but I'd almost rather have a home in a neighborhood where we can walk to parks and shops and interact more with other people. I'd rather not have a big maintenance project. The problem is where I live... with (X+Y)/2 income, that will basically be a condo or apartment for awhile. It is just reality.
Your quote really does resonate with me. I know D would not be so bad. I'm sitting here at home (alone) this morning thinking about my plans to GAL, do some housework, and it feels so low pressure. I like it. W sent me a text and I'm ignoring it, not to be a jerk, just b/c I don't feel like I need to respond. I feel detached, I feel good. I know sometimes in the next 2 hours I will probably swing into a low funk, feel like I'm having a low grade panic attack, and I'll breathe through that and then pick myself up again.
I hear you on the fault thing. I was raised by a moody mother (essentially BPD) and a non-emotional father. I learned how to cater to my mother's moods and try to keep the peace. I learned how to be a Nice Guy. I learned how to avoid conflict. I learned how to doubt my instincts. I learned how to make my W my emotional center. I never learned how to set healthy boundaries. When we moved up here, I let my distress about my W being depressed or upset get the better of me. I pleaded with her to just tell me everything was okay. I drove her away. Some of these episodes bordered on, or even crossed over into, emotional abuse. No name calling and yelling, but still EA. I played the victim. I worried CONSTANTLY about my W's happiness. I rushed home from work. I asked her "Are you okay?" constantly, to her annoyance. Her anger scared me and drove me away to give her space.
My parents decided to cut off communication about 3 years ago. I should have taken the first step quite honestly. I was relieved. It was a huge issue in our M - every time we interacted with them there was conflict and hurt. Recently they have tried to reach out to contact me. But with no apologies, no remorse. I have gone NC with them except when necessary to exchange information (for reasons I won't get into). My position is that I will not engage in any future R with them until they show a willingness to change. I will not expose my kids to this unhealthiness. Getting over the guilt here was a HUGE undertaking for me, years of IC. But I am there. W resents me for it. We even talked about it a few weeks ago, and I told her, If they don't show a commitment to change, such as going to therapy on their own, I will not entertain a future R with them. She was silent, probably wondering if I was just telling her what she wanted to hear. I don't really care, it is my truth. In the past, I would have probably asked W "What would you do?" I'm acting on my own at this point. Maybe she was testing me, wondering if post-D I will reinitiate contact. I don't know. It will be 100% my say at that point.
It's easy to fall into 2 traps when thinking about what happened to our M. First, I could blame my W. I could say, you are controlling. You controlled our sex life and cut it off. We have no affection. You are angry and won't talk to me. You have avoided MC to work through our issues. You are secretive and planning your way out. You don't let me in. I can never do enough around the house to keep you happy. I can never do enough with my work schedule to keep you happy. You don't get along with your mom, but you never realized how you patterned your parenting after hers... you poured everything into your R with your kids, and left your H feeling abandoned, stranded.
Or, I could blame myself. My NGS drove you away. I more or less molded you to be controlling. I let fear drive my decisions. I patterned my behavior just like when I was a child, and you had no choice but to take ownership of the kids and the house. And I became like my dad, FT worker. Different from my dad in the sense that I engage with my kids way more. And different in the sense that I pushed for a closer R with my W. But still, letting W run the show.
But the healthy way to look at this (I think) is: We both brought our issues into this M. Our love for each other was strong enough to get through most episodes. Then we had 3 kids, and we moved, and had a huge life disruption. And we were no longer equipped to handle this. Other couples, healthier couples, or couples with different issues, could have worked through it. We could not. We failed at MC the first time. W seems to have given up. I am willing to go ahead with MC2. I don't think it would be easy work, but I don't want to give up. I'd like one more shot. W seems to have already made up her mind though, and I can't change that, and the shame of it all is depressing. The shame of splitting our family apart, rather than fighting to make it work.
LH you said it perfectly in your post, and I'm basically repeating what you said here just with a lot more words.
OK I need to stop doing THIS, and start GAL'ing for the day....
Ben just caught up on your sitch three quick observations:
1st, brace yourself for the other shoe to drop. I'm sensing someone else in the picture from her behavior. Just keep it in mind and be ready if and when the truth comes to light.
2nd, it appears as if she is looking for reasons to not stay. They whole "I have to initiate conversations" smacks of it. Understand that nothing you do will be good enough. If you initiate conversations she'll accuse you of never shutting up and smothering her. You can't win so don't try. So not react emotionally to these kinds of things. Detachment is key. Listen and validate.
3rd, you, like me, thought your money would be your saving Grace. But do you really want her to stay just because you're wealthy? Just because she wouldn't have what she has without you? That would be terrible in 30 testers to look back and realize she stuck with you all this time because of your money.
Thank you for your reply, Steve!
I doubt there could be someone else in the picture simply because I don´t know how she would be able to have any sort of affair. She never comes home late from work, she never takes her phone to the bathroom or anything like that. She leaves both phone and laptop in the livingroom if she goes to shower so I would have plenty of time to go through it if I wanted to. We still sleep in the same bed, naked every night, If there would be someone else it would have to be a ONS.
Her typical MLC behaviour, going out to party every weekend, working out and eating healthy, etc etc have all toned down a lot since end of April. She still has plans with her friends almost every Saturday but all other nights she seems to want to spend with me. But could be because her friends are busy of course and all she has is me then. GAL has proven to be quite difficult for me since I have my dog that I don´t want to leave alone for more than a few hours. But I still excercise twice a day, I meet my friends and family on Saturday´s when she is busy and on Sunday´s I play squash with a friend of mine while she´s usually at home. That´s as good as I can do. If it wasn´t for the dog, I would probably go on holiday with friends of mine.
Her saying that I don´t initiate conversations was actually the first negative thing she has said to me in months, in fact since our first mini BD back in early February. Since then we´ve pretty much been the same as we always are except for the lack of intimacy. I honestly don´t think she would accuse me of smothering her if I initiated conversations. That´s not the vibe we have between us(not at the moment at least), When things were good between us, one of the things she could complain about was that I could become introverted at times so even though it is not recommended here, she seems to respond well to our conversations. But that´s only if they are about something that isn´t serious. I would normally never have R talks with her as that would create anxiety but it´s become a thing now that we talk about midlife crisis whenever we go to dinners. She is very interested in the subject and has a lot to say about it. She´s now reading a book that was recommended by our MC about relationships and how our childhood can affect that.
Regarding money, no that´s absolutely not what I want! That´s what I wrote early on as well. I wish she had family that lived in the same city or at least the same country. If she had the option to move out and still lived with me, at least I would know it´s because she really wants to make this to work. Now, I will always have the suspicion that she has no other choice. But that´s also why I´m so sad that this is happening. She supported me when I lost everything and we had to move into a tiny one bedroom apartment. I don´t know what I would have done without her during that time. These days, I am very successful in my work. I work with internationally famous people and I am well known for what I do. If our relationship ends and I have to find a new one, I´m afraid I would always have doubts whether or not she is with me for me or for my money and to hang out with celebrities.
Very odd: H rang me 3 times a bit earlier. I thought it might be important so rang him back. He sounded excited and happy (not heard that for a long time) and was busy telling me about something which happened when he was out with his colleagues cycling. I think he'd gone ahead so he wasn't with them (the man is so competitive, lol). I find it utterly bizarre that the man who was telling me 5 days ago that he might want a D is then calling me as the first person to tell something to. Just so weird. Anyway, not reading anything into it, it was nice to hear him sounding happy for a change. Hopefully this time away will have done him some good.