Elsa, I would encourage you not to try to have any more R talks with him. He obviously doesn't want to, and it seems to make the situation worse. It's good that he wants to go out and have fun with you tonight. But prepare yourself for the fact that it might be cake eating on his part. Be hopeful, but don't be a fool. Start putting more focus on your own life just in case.
M: 43 H: 39 D: 14 Married 15 Together 16 BD: 6/2014 S: 8/2014 OW revealed 10/2014 Instigated dissolution 12/2014, in progress So over it!
Hi Elsa, I'm new on your thread! Ganb8te recommended it to me. Just got caught up and I'm seriously impressed with how little you rock and roll despite all that goes on internally. I will need to keep that with me in coming weeks.
One idea that occurred to me in reading your sitch - what if you acted as-if you were a happily married freshly in love version of yourself for a while? Your H, like mine, is able to think and work with heavy. Sometimes we get lost in it. We've had a solid week since he came home and I owe most of it to acting as-if and not letting the confusion he's going thru rock me from the loving sexual person I wanted to be despite the pain. He has said so many conflicting things it would drive me crazy. And has. My crazy is all over this board.
I told my H recently about the fantasy I had for my next H if he didn't stick around. It was inspired by the wonderful relationship with our dog. How good it is that one of us can't speak. I'd move to Europe, meet a man that spoke virtually no English, we'd pass the salt through hand signals, pet each other, ML, and that would be a conflict free and happy M with no ground for misunderstanding. We got a good laugh out of it anyway,
Hugs to you, congrats on all you've achieved, and still will...
Mid 30's Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH D 9/15; NC forever on
Thank you for stopping by Zelda! I'll pop over to your thread later today after I catch up on your sitch.
I like your use of the "as-if" technique. Sometimes I worry about building "bad" habits (like, it's okay to ignore my needs -- I'll still be happy and nice, etc) but I think my H is far more likely to respond to positivity than negativity.
The past week or so has been pretty good. H went out of town for a few days for work and I just let him be -- didn't call or text or anything while he was gone. When he came back he was friendly, but not overly so. This is where things have a tendency to go downhill for us. I think I've just given him what he wants/needs in spades, and he comes back and says, "Did you have a good few days?" and thinks that's enough.
This time, I ended up reaching out and trying to explain that when I give a lot, I expect a lot in return (rightly or wrongly) and when I don't get it, I worry that he's not committed anymore, etc. The first part of the conversation was rocky because H saw it as (once again!) me accusing him of not being the person I want him to be. He said, "I just want you to accept me for who I am." And I said, "I'm sorry you think I don't accept you. I really do -- faults and personality quirks and all. I am asking you to change something about how you interact with me, just as you have asked me to do the same re: conflict. I want to be accepted too, and being affectionate is how I know that you accept me."
That last thought had been rattling around in my brain for a while, but I'd not gotten a chance to say it to H yet. It ended up changing the whole tenor of the conversation. I went over to his house that night and we cuddled and watched TV together. The next morning, he sent me a text that said, "Last nice was nice. Thank you." I gave him space for a few days, and we are going on a date tonight. I feel like we are in a good rhythm. Other than the conversation above (abt 30 min), we've not had any R talk/conflict in almost 2 weeks.
Something I'm curious about:
At BD, I asked H to go to IC and he said he would. But, he never did. I worry a little bit about him finding an IC who encourages him to D, but I do think he would benefit from IC (and hey, so might our M).
Our current MC didn't have us do individual appts in the beginning like most MC. A few sessions ago, he explained that this was because we came to him in a crisis, and he prioritized stability over personal history. He then said that he felt like we were stable enough to start exploring those other issues, so we both made individual appts. I went in for mine and it was completely normal. H went in for his, and they didn't finish, so he had to make another appt. His 2nd appt was a few days ago and we go back together next week.
I'm thinking of suggesting to H that he see our MC for IC. Clearly, he has a lot to talk abt! Our MC is very pro-marriage and seems very fair. I'm not worried that it would slant him to my H's side at all. What do you think?
I think it's a sensible suggestion! Our MC works with us individually, and he has two other docs besides her.
I keep thinking of my H saying he just wanted to be away from the stress that was our relationship. So I am careful to not let anything get heavier than if has to right now.
Like you, I am giving and giving and getting little chunks back. It's easier to deal with when I realize this is a strategy. And I'm still thinking things over and if at the end of the day my needs aren't being met when I decide done...well, it's some peace not to push or rush.
Hugs! Happy weekend, hope all continues to go well!
Mid 30's Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH D 9/15; NC forever on
Things have continued to go very, very well over the past few weeks. We spent Valentine's Day together, and we went out for dinner another night this week to celebrate the anniversary of our first date (which I suppose means that I need to update my signature, since we've now been "together" for 14 years). I have been STFU for the most part, and I've definitely noticed a postive impact on the R. We've had a couple of little bumps over the past few weeks but instead of the conversations taking hours they've been over in 20 minutes, with lots of good listening and responsiveness and appreciation on both our parts.
As an example--
Yesterday, I had to call H to talk abt our schedules. I asked if he was free on Friday and he said he had plans, but he would like us to get together on Saturday or Sunday instead. After we hung up, I realized that I was bothered by the fact that he didn't tell me what his plans were. So, I called back and said, "I'm going to be silly for a moment, but I hope you'll indulge me. It made me nervous when you said you had plans on Friday but didn't tell me what they were."
He said, "I'm sorry, I didn't know it would upset you. I wasn't try to withhold anything from you. I'm going out for drinks with So and So from work."
I asked him a couple of questions about it, and he answered them. Then he said, "I feel controlled when you ask me those questions, like you are judging what I'm doing or implying that I shouldn't go. I should be able to go out with my friends sometimes and not feel bad about it."
I said, "I'm sorry you feel controlled. I definitely agree that you should be able to go out with your friends, and I hope you have a good time tomorrow night. I have a vision for us, which is that we share our plans with each other, and we are not threatened by each other's plans." I then brought up some examples from the past where I felt like we did this well.
("I have a vision" is language from the MC. H uses it a lot when he wants to get my attention, so I thought I'd try it too and I think it worked.)
He said, "I have that vision too. Can I say one more thing, though? I feel like there's a little bit of a double standard. Back in the summer and early fall, there were a few times when you had plans and you didn't tell me what they were."
I said, "I can see why that would feel like a double standard. I definitely remember what you are talking about and I am happy to tell you now what I was doing then. At the time, I thought I was following your lead and keep some things to myself, but I think we're in a different place now, and I want to foster a sense of openness between us."
He said, "Ok, I understand."
I said, "Thank you for this conversation. I can tell you are really trying to listen and consider my perspective, and I appreciate that."
He said, "I feel the same way. The lack of conflict recently has really helped."
I ended the call and we both said I love you at exactly the same time.
Later in the day he called back. I picked up the phone and said, without thinking, "What's wrong?" I don't get many phone calls from H in the middle of the day. H said, "Nothing is wrong. I just wanted to let you know that I was sorry about making you nervous this morning and to let you know that it is okay that you brought it up. I didn't want you to spend the whole day worrying about it." I said something like, "That's so nice, you didn't have to do that,"and he said, "You told me once that you liked to be reassured after the conversation was over that you hadn't upset the balance, so I'm letting you know." I thanked him for listening and for calling.
Later in the evening he dropped off D7. He looked at me and said, "Are you ok?" and held up his hand for me to clasp. I said yes and asked if he was ok too and he said yes.
Am really appreciating his thoughtfulness/attention to my needs of late . . .
Went to lunch with H and D7 today. I sort of dislike doing things as a family because I don't think H is as attentive to me when D7 is around. Today he seemed unusually quiet. When we got to the restaurant I asked, "Are you ok?" He said yes, and then we got called to the hostess stand. While we were waiting to be seated, he turned to me and said, "Why did you ask if I was ok?" I smiled and said that was a dangerous question. He asked why. I said, "Because then I will have to say what you was doing to make me think you were not ok, and then you will feel judged. If you're really ok, then I was wrong and we can just leave it at that." H gave me a puzzle look and said something like, "You can answer the question." So I said, "You just seemed distant, like you didn't particularly want to be here with me." He nodded and then we were called to our table.
So we're sitting there with D7 doing MadLibs and making small talk and I just want to go sit in the bathroom and cry. This is one of those moments where I know that it's me and my perception of things, but I also get very upset that H is not willing to step up and offer reassurance. I mean, if really NOT ok and he doesn't want to say so or offer reassurance otherwise, then fine. But if it really IS ok and he knows that I think otherwise it just seems cruel to leave me hanging, wondering if I'm misjudging the situation or not.
Just when I was abt to excuse myself to go look around the gift shop (and let's be honest, have a little cry), he said, "Hey Elsa, everything is fine." I said thank you. He said, "I'm offering you some reassurance." I said, "I know, thank you." And that was that.
I was prepared to take care of myself in that moment (by excusing myself from the table) but H did what I needed, without prompting. It ended up being a nice little moment.
This is something I can see getting better with time. I'm not despondent or feeling like it's futile. We're trying to find our balance, and I really feel like it's happening.
We finally seemed to be finding our path, and then all heck broke loose. We went to MC and the first thing H brought up was the conversation I mentioned two posts ago. He said that he was really upset that I violated a boundary (by calling him back after we'd hung up) and that was not acceptable to him. I lost it. For me, the most significant bright spot in the past month had been that conversation (and the follow-ups later in the day). It was a shining example of listening, compromise, and growth in our R -- and here was H tearing it all down.
The entire session ended up being about H's boundaries and whether or not it is reasonable to expect me to meet them 100% of the time. For clarity, his boundaries are (1) not calling him on the way to work, (2) not calling him back after we've hung up the phone, and (3) not "ambushing" him with R talk. I told him that I respect his boundaries but I am human, and sometimes my needs are going to conflict. I asked for grace in those moments, just like I try to give him grace when he is imperfect. I admit, I was defensive. I am so tired of hearing my H say that I have to be perfect when he won't even try to give me 10% of what I need.
We ended up settling on the idea that what boundaries are for him, security is for me, and we agreed to discuss it later.
A few nights after MC, we went on a date. We had already decided to have our talk the following day, but we hadn't worked out any of the particulars. At the end of the date (which was completely mediocre -- H put forth no effort whatsoever to meet my need for physical affection), H asked me if we could have our talk on the phone. I said that I would prefer to talk in person. H dug in his heels and it got awkward. I told him it was fine, we could talk on the phone. When we left the restaurant, H was acting funny. I asked if he was ok, and he said yes, he was just afraid that I would call him after he left. Well, that sentiment is starting to become quite the self-fulfilling prophecy, H! Glad to know you're there for me. [/sarcasm]
I think we know where this is going. I panicked. I called him. And when he didn't answer, I called again. I think in all I called 7 times and left 4 messages. (I am really embarrassed to admit that. I have NEVER done anything like that before.) H finally called me back and spewed at me like he has never spewed before. H said he would call me back in the morning. When he called the next morning, we agreed that we just needed to forget that the previous night happened and move forward without discussing it.
I'm out of time, but I have more to update (and I DESPERATELY need advice, as I had a little breakdown today and I am wondering know if I know what "done" feels like . . .). I'll come back and post more in a little while!
We ended up having our planned conversation by phone later in the day. We agreed in the abstract to work on boundaries and security in parallel, but to give each other some time to think abt exactly what that would look like before coming back to together and sharing our ideas.
So I let him be for a few days and then we had lunch. We had good conversation but I felt that he was not himself. I asked him if he had really let go of what had happened the other night after dinner. He said that he had and asked me why I thought he hadn't. I told him that I thought I noticed a change in how he interacted with me. H denied holding a grudge but gave me the old, "Everything WAS okay until you said something!" bit, which I have to say I don't believe for one second. We had a little argument at the table and then he just got up and left in the middle of the conversation. The whole thing went from pleasant lunch to walking out in less than 5 minutes. I followed him out in to the parking lot and he just kept walking. He shouted back to me that we would talk later. I sent him a very short email asking if we could schedule a time to talk. He never replied.
I saw him a few hours later at kid exchange, and he was still upset. He told me that he nothing to give but said that he would call me in the morning on his way to work. (His suggestion -- and he wonders why I have trouble understanding his boundaries???) He called as promised and we had a decent conversation -- mutual apologies, a recommitment to working on boundaries/security and an agreement to clarify expectations in a later conversation. I asked H if he could offer any reassurance and he said he needed time to process. Later in the day, he called me back to let me know that he loved me, and we when we met for kid exchange he got out of the car and gave me a hug. I told him thank you and that he was doing all the right things.
And then I let him be again for a few days. We planned the follow-up conversation for Sunday night. On Sunday he texted me and asked if we could meet for coffee in the morning instead because he was really tired. I said that would be fine.
Aaaaand I'm out of time again -- be back to wrap up soon!
