Thanks again, folks! We had a nice meal last night at a South Indian Restaurant and then returned home for cake and presents. Nice night. Tonight was another nice night. It started this afternoon when we sat down as a family to discuss finances. Going over our spending and how we could cut back and start a savings program. W actually asked if we could sit down and do this, so I said OK. So, she is now following up on it and that is positive. So, after dinner we all sat down and looked at family pictures. W had been telling us about her parents hard life, comparing their huge struggles to our seeming minor ones. The girls wanted to see pictures of them with their grandfather and it went from there, album after album of our family photos. Later W brought out an album of pictures she's stashed away (another little secret) with different pictures from when she was a child till now. Got some nice snaps of OW in there too. That was somewhat difficult, it's a good thing she's so damn ugly...that made me feel better! I couldn't help but wonder which of these pictures where from when they were just friends and which were the present sitch. I just walked away and she continued showing the girls. She's now gone out to visit her ugliness and I jsut finished tucking in the kids. Damn, I hope looking at those family pictures gives her the guilts big time. How she can keep doing what she's doing is just so beyond me. I wasn't getting much in the way of met needs for years either yet why did I NOT look elsewhere? I don't say this to be patronizing or smug, I just don't understand. I hung in as I promised I would in my vows, she didn't. I just don't understand how we could be so different in that. I guess, whatis is.
Well,I was somewhat emotional this morning, no big deal. I had a little cry on the way to church in the car. I guess just the wonderful family moments we shared the last two days brought up alot of feeling for me. In so many ways we are a wonderful couple with an amazing family, so WHAT THE F#CK HAPPENED! My therapist said that we were a pretty normal couple with pretty normal issues until OW showed up and that's when it all went to Hell. It's hard to recognize what was indeed ME and what was outside of my control. Yes, there was more I could have done to be a better H, but I did do more than most, believe it or not. How much was my W's internal struggles that I couldn't do a damn thing about. The therapist also said that my W had an extremely emotionally deprived childhood (which is true) and therefore had a great many issues to work out and until she was ready to do so it would be hard to see any change in my sitch. This was my previous therapist, not the SF therapist I saw recently. So once more I ponder, how much do I put up with. W seems completely untouched by yesterday yet I'm crying in the friggin car. She is the master at stuffing feelings away and not dealing with them. This is how she got through a her childhood, stuffing away her feelings and needs in order to be mother to her Mother and take care of her brothers and sisters. Which is also why she resents having to take care of me in any way, shape or form (not that I ever really got much of that). Now, I do not know how yesterday effected her, I am only assuming using my faulty emotional screens here but it seems anger is often the only emotion she shows, and at least that one hasn't made an appearance yet. Again, in my head I was going through how I was going to tell her that this farce is over. A strange response to a nice few days, isn't it. So as usual I will do sweet piss all and carry on. Hooray hooray!
I just thought I'd share some thoughts I have been pondering. I am wondering how much I do (or don't do) in re to my sitch is based in fear. Do I stay and not leave because of: *fear of being alone *fear of losing my family *fear of less time with my children *fear of damaging my children *fear of being financially strapped *fear of never finding another R *fear of having to deal with an angry, hurtful S who wants this R to continue as is
fear is not a good thing to be immersed in. It is a good indicator that something is wrong but a lousy thing to base decisions on. I read somewhere that we need to look at every event in our lives as the best thing that could possibly happen to us at that point in time. How often have we dread and put off certain things only to find out that something wonderful came from it when it actually happened. Have you ever lost a job and then found a better more fulfilling one? If anybody ever asked whether you wanted to lose the first job, you'd say NO! But... I have pictures in my head of a lonely, impoverished man sitting in a dreary basement apartment just waiting for his kids to drop by. Not good pictures but I must ask "are they realistic"? I can't know what will come from any decision I make but it makes as much sense to believe that whatever happens is the best thing that could possibly happen. It's just something that is in my head today. I hope it is of some value to others as well.
How often have we dread and put off certain things only to find out that something wonderful came from it when it actually happened.
This right here is why PMA is everything. As long as you dread your PMA needs work. Dread is created in your mind, of your mind. What you fear isn't what is, it's what you expect. If you expect something to be terrible, horrible, awful, etc, that's when you dread. How often is the actual event in life this extreme? Not often. Things are usually unfortunate, unless we decide to view them as awful. That's when we fight against reality, saying things should not be this way. They can't be this way.
Fear on the other hand is a very functional emotion. It signals you to the fact that there's risk and danger involved. Tells you to be cautious. Basing decisions in the risks that your fear is signalling you to is not bad - they are considerations - however basing them on the fear itself, that's a different story. I think we, especially as men, are conditioned to see fear as weakness, so we have a lot of complex emotions built up around the fear that doesn't allow us to take it for what it really is. Acknowledging and respecting your fear in the moment is healthy, and nothing to be ashamed of. It can even be an act of love (break the love/fear dichotomy - they are not necessarily mutually exclusive). The functional part of this is that in so doing you eliminate the shame from the equation. You can understand what the fear is signalling you to and respond rather than paralizing yourself without truly understanding what it is you're afraid of.
I want to challenge and dispute some of the beliefs these fears are based on. By no means am I implying that your feelings are wrong or bad. I think disputing these beliefs will allow you the opportunity to reevaulate your position in a different light.
Originally Posted By: whatisis
*fear of being alone
We are always alone. Born alone and die alone. However, if we choose to love, choose to intimate and share, we will never be. People are social creatures and WANT to connect. As long as you choose to connect, to seek opportunities and be available, you will NEVER be alone. Look to improve your ability to connect. Make a concerted effort in this department.
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*fear of losing my family
Do you really "have" your family? Is it something you possess? How do you define this? What are the underlying beliefs here? I think it's a more complex issue than it looks like on the surface. Once you've defined "family", think about what you can do to bring this about in your life with your children with or without your W.
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*fear of less time with my children
This may or may not result from whatever agreement you come to. However, you will likely improve on the quality of the time you do spend. Put down on paper a schedule that you think is reasonable and really quantify how different the time spent will be. Maybe plan a way to increase the quality of time spent with the children and implement it now so it is a routine that continues despite the transition.
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*fear of damaging my children
What is it exactly that will damage them? I know there's a very broad, all encompassing bit of knowledge that divorce is damaging. But have you done any real research into this? Have you educated yourself for the possibility of this occuring in order to do your best to be there for the children? Getting educated on this might help you understand what you might be up against and not leave you fearing what you don't know.
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*fear of being financially strapped
Again, the unknown at work. You have seen a lawyer, so are you aware of what the financial situation would likely be? You are a resourceful person and would likely find creative ways to make ends meet, so don't worry about this. Maybe make some plans now, just in case. This will set you at ease.
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*fear of never finding another R
See fear of being alone.
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*fear of having to deal with an angry, hurtful S who wants this R to continue as is
Address your anger and hurt and your desire to continue the relationship as it is. I believe this is a strong sign about how you feel about yourself in the current situation. What you would most like from your W is what you need to address in yourself.
I see all of your fears as signals for you to take action. If you look at it this way you don't get immersed in it. You find the positive, healthy information and leave the shame behind. You are not a slave to fear if you accept and address it. It's when you ignore it or try and fight it that you become a slave to it. When you can see the positive in your fear (it's self preservation, self care, self respect) you can actually have a positive experience in your fear. Does this make sense?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, I cannot argue with anything you have said here! Fear is what results when we fantasize about the future, not based on what is actually happening. We often forsee bad things because that is what we desire least versus what we desire most. Funny, how it is that we do that? It's just as easy to picture good outcomes, yet it often takes much effort to choose imagining positive outcomes. But reality is that neither good nor bad outcomes can be forecast with any accuracy. The fears that I have mentioned entail outcomes that could just as likely end up being positive. As you said, time with my family could be of better quality because of the more limited time allowed for it. My R with W could actually improve without the constant stress of having to live with each other, who knows. My life could actually improve with more targeted and conscious spending choices and result in a better use of time e.g. meditating or something else! But I do truly worry about how a separation would affect the kids. This is because we are their security in this world, the base that they depend on and to suddenly pull that out from under them is truly a horrible thought. Yet, again that fear is filled with negative outcome thinking. So, I think that fear should be an indicator that points us to action, that is its purpose. If I am staying where I am only because I fear what would come next, that is not a well made choice because I am basing my life choices on a negative fantasy. It's kind of like W tearing her family apart for her positive "fantasy" R. I think we would all agree that is poor decision making but at least she is actually experiencing something versus just fearing something that may or may not be. Making good choices means putting aside fear and asking "what is it I want" and "how do I go about getting it". Does this situation provide the resources to make that happen or not. To choose either to stay or go is not wrong, as long as it is a choice that is made in a well thought out manner. Fear should be respected as an indicator but it should never determine what that final choice will be. My two rules for staying were always 1) as long as there is hope and 2) as long as no harm is being done and a healthy environment still exists for me, my W and the kids. This is why I always have tried to keep things on an even keel, be flexible and open as possible. I often walk away to keep that so, right or wrong. All these choices need to be examined as to whether they are creating the life I want to live and what I want to be. Well, enough rambling, some of which seems a bit incoherent (!) and thanks again Muddle for your input.
But reality is that neither good nor bad outcomes can be forecast with any accuracy.
Here's an interesting thought: outcomes are facts, neither good nor bad. We choose our meaning based on our expectations and desires. Nothing in this world has intrinsic meaning. We add that to the event. Often we see the meaning rather than the fact or event. We use facts to support the meaning, but the facts are discarded when they cease to be of value. Using this logic in reverse can be a huge help here. The fact will be what it will be - and you will add the positive meaning when the time comes! Have faith in yourself. I have faith in you to do this. Who'd've thunk we all would be having the time of our lives while our spouses are doing things that hurt us so! We've turned a potentially "horrible" experience into a positive one. This skill is yours for life, applicable in all situations. So basically, you can forecast events, consequences, but to say they are bad or good is beyond human ability. They may look bad now because of what they are relative to, but in the future, when the fact comes to fruition, they may not be relative to the situation then. Sure, consequences are advantageous or not, so planning actions based on expections of getting the most advantageous consequences is the norm. But because they are advantageous doesn't make them good, just changes the pitch of the platform you stand on.
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The fears that I have mentioned entail outcomes that could just as likely end up being positive.
Which is why I expect you'll add the positive to any outcome, which negates the need to look to outcomes to justify appropriate action.
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But I do truly worry about how a separation would affect the kids. This is because we are their security in this world, the base that they depend on and to suddenly pull that out from under them is truly a horrible thought. Yet, again that fear is filled with negative outcome thinking.
Hey, WI, I'm trapped in this too. You are responsible for the lives of others, so you're responsible for how the consequences of your actions impact them. Not easy to bear the weight of this decision. Kids really change the equation. There's no room for whimsy.
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Making good choices means putting aside fear and asking "what is it I want" and "how do I go about getting it". Does this situation provide the resources to make that happen or not. To choose either to stay or go is not wrong, as long as it is a choice that is made in a well thought out manner.
Having it come down to that choice is difficult for me. I often question my motives when I go there in my mind. I respect that you ponder this, but I'm not at a point where it's an option to me. I think you need to have a goal that you work towards - love is a creative force, and to move towards realizing a life you want in a planned way that doesn't discount the option of resolving what you currently have may be what you need. Once you are where you need to be and you have clarity about what you want, make a plan and move towards it. Communicate your intentions. Make your W your partner in this, not your enemy, and see where that takes your relationship.
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My two rules for staying were always 1) as long as there is hope
As long as you decide to maintain it
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and 2) as long as no harm is being done and a healthy environment still exists for me, my W and the kids.
Even in the best of situations, kids get hurt. I think you have done well to be healthy in the situation. I think you are thriving, despite your dissatisfactions.
[quote]All these choices need to be examined as to whether they are creating the life I want to live and what I want to be. /quote]
Yes - creating a life that you want is difficult because the speculation exists outside of reality. What you think you could and should have is outside the realm of the knowable.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Stubborn, I have worked hard not to let those fears control my actions but I sometimes wonder whether they have in a way that I have just not noticed. We attach outcomes to things before they happen, good and bad. Either way can be harmful. If I believe as some do that no matter what my kids will be fine, that would be irresponsible. Will they be OK just because that thought makes me feel better about what I want to do? On the otherhand, I can sit and fret endlessly about the terrible fate that awaits them if I end my M and forget about their abilities to withstand worse things than this. I don't think imagining outcomes either way is really the answer. The answer lies in being aware of what is happening today and evaluating what is as best you can. Can I continue to be the person I want to be living in the situation I am living in? Can I be the loving father I want to be? Am I able to live in a manner that doesn't let anger, hurt and revenge rule my mood and behaviour? Can I deal with being furniture? It's best to forget about attaching outcomes that are pure imagination, good or bad and stick to dealing with the reality of what is. Those are my thoughts tonight, I'm sure they'll change tomorrow!!!
Your girls will be fine...either way...because you are a great dad and take care of them so well. It shows how well-adjusted they are, from previous stories you have mentioned.
1210, Whatis will be fine! The most horrible thought for me is not being able to tuck my girls in at night. That's the one that just tears the old heart out. But, you know, the bottom line is that ultimately you can deal with anything. That's what a good friend told me a few years after losing his father and young brother, both in the same week (his brother to suicide as he couldn't deal with the loss of his dad). I asked my friend how he could have possibly lived through this and stayed sane, he said "you live through it because you have to" Words to remember.
