Michele, Thanks so much for your input. It means so much to me. I slipped a bit yesterday - got it in my head to pick up some self help books, and a journal, to give to my W. I don't know where my head was. She really doesn't read much - and has no interest at all in self-help books, or in writing in a journal. It was like a train wreck.
But, upon reflection she wasn't too unkind about the whole matter. I politely said that I had made a mistake, apoligized, took the books and left. I figure she'll back off a little, but I'm not too discouraged. I think it just gave me the strength I needed to just go ahead and detach. I've decided to go into super dark LRT for a while - and really do a lot of hard work on myself - all around work physically, mentally, emotionally. If all goes well, I figure by the time she decides to poke her head out to see where I disappeared to, I should be a whole new person.
Thanks again Michele. I think it's wonderful that you show so much interest in helping us through this.
Thanks Michele! I'm doing pretty good on not freaking out or over-reacting to my WAH (kinda hard to do with no communication), my response to his one and only e-mail lately was a polite "thanks for the e-card, hope you're doing well". I left it at that, short and sweet and no emotional or personal talk, and no other contact so I wouldn't scare him off, but it's been a month since then so I don't know what's up. It's not so much me over-reacting to him, it's all me driving myself crazy. He doesn't see or know how I overreact, the gang here on the board gets to put up with that - the overanalyzing, over stressing, getting my hopes up, and then getting my head out of the clouds. So I am doing good as far as using my DB skills with my H, just not with myself.
Thanks for your reply on the being dark question too. Since after 5 months being dark is "more of the same" now, I'm going to stick my head out and test the waters. My goal is to be friendly and get a friendly response, though no pressure, no emotional stuff, and if he doesn't respond then I'll have to figure out a new game plan. And as part of this, my other goal is to not go off the deep end and drive myself and everyone else nuts during the wait! Thanks!
I've been at this board for three months now. It's about time I put some serious effort into clarifying my own goals.
My immediate goals are: I would like W to show an interest in me as a person. Examples of this would include 1)Giving me information about the children,(such as their welfare, what they have been up to, etc) without me having to ask all the time. 2) Ask me how I am, or give some sign that she thinks I matter as a person.
She would stop being totally defensive and relax when she is talking to me.Examples of this could include 1) She would laugh at my jokes, or better yet, tell me one of her own. 2)She would stop trying to limit our communication and not act like she must be the first to hang up when we talk. 3)She would ask me about how the childrens weekends with me went.
As I begin to achieve some of my initial goals I will turn my attention to some goals that may take longer to reach.
These would include: W will question the merits of her relationship with OM.(She may have done this in her head, but I want to hear that she has done this out loud.
W will show more interest in me. Examples of this would include 1) Asking me to join in a family activity, or even asking if she could enjoy an activity with me and the children if I should have them. She would perhaps call me just for a social chat, with no hidden agenda.
W would want to spend time with me. Examples of this would be to want to go shopping, or the movies, etc with me, just like she would a freind.
My next lot of goals may take even longer to occur.
W would end her relationship with OM. W would actively encourage me to spend as much time with our children as the children and I want. W would want to engage in OR talks, and say that she would like it if I would consider marraige councelling with the aim to restart our marriage anew.
If any of you have any thoughts or comments about these goals, please let me know.
Thanks Michele-- Your words of wisdom and encouragement are just what I needed to hear right now. So many people (not on the bb of course) keep telling me to call it quits out of pride or self-protectiveness, but my instinct is not to do so right now. It helps to hear again about the hope in possibility that comes with leaving the door a bit ajar.
I did test the waters a bit this week by emailing him to ask him for help in taking care of our dog one night a week. He didn't balk at all--said he probably could and said he'd email me again next week to let me know for sure. What I didn't tell him is that I need the dog-sitting to allow me to go to a support group led by a therapist who has read your books, went to one of your seminars this spring, and talked to you there. So I feel like it's a baby-step forward on two fronts--first that he didn't flinch at agreeing to help me out, and second that I'll be doing something good for myself each week with someone who knows where I'm coming from regarding the DB perspective. About my goals, it's hard to say what to shoot for in the next couple of weeks since lately we've gone for so many weeks at a time without contact. I guess I'll start small and just aim to have our dog-sitting arrangement go smoothly with only pleasant, low-pressure contact. Thanks again for your support. If I can keep hanging on, at least I'll know in the end, no matter which way it ends up, that I did everything I could to give my M a chance at survival. Your positive energy is a great gift to all of us here on the bb. Edna
Thanks Michele, I really like the part where you talk about testing the waters. A little baby toe in there, and if the temperature's too hot, wait until it cools. Also, and this is what I have to remember, once one toe is in the water, still the next toe might need some more cooling down. In light of this goals for moi, what's been happening. 1 - Career - Concentrating on the task at hand. 2 - Kids - Being together with them. 3 - Hobbies - Started (and completed some sewing projects). 4 - Me - I'm smiling and I actually like myself again! Accept others as who they are, they are doing the best they can. Read some books. Presently, all the novels make me too emotional, so stick with some factual books.
My do's. Stay on track. 1 - No discussion about ow. Doing good here. It helps. 2 - No spying. Keeps my own self esteem up. I have no competition. There have always been and will always be others around. I do not need to succomb to those horrible pulls of jealousy. Spend the time improving myself. Spy on myself. What makes me happy? Old habits die hard. I was at the bookstore with my younger son and I was looking at some poetry books and some novels and I find myself saying " Oh , H would love this, maybe I'll get it for him. Oh, wouldn't H learn a lot from this book". I wasn't even scanning the shelves to see what books I'm interested in. Time will come when it's his turn again... 3 - Speaking: clearly, calmly, no anger. Well. Had a little blow up here. He didn't treat me with respect. I asked him a question about something he was working on and he responded curtly. (He said I was never interested in what he was working on. Then he says I'm only asking him because he thinks I'm following his formula.) My side of the story. Whenever I would ask him something, I would feel inadequate, like there's something I should know (since I'm educated -low self esteeem here) but I don't know (because I forgot or because I didn't learn that). So I flipped a coin, should I call him or not to tell him how I feel? Pursuing if I call, testing the waters? Heads - I call. Led to more discussion the next day. I say, "I want to try again". He says "sometimes I feel really comfortable around you and other times I don't" I said, "Well, when are the times you feel comfortable around me ? What do you do to allow it to happen" Anyway, I lectured some. Too much. I didn't back off. But it was ok. There's communication and interaction, and he didn't "pchewy". So, I wrote and wrote and wrote. Believe it or not, you get the shortened version. So, returning to the goals. After step 1 (no condescending remarks) and before step 2 (kiss me), you're so right - need some smaller steps.
H's 1- No pshewy's. No more condescending remarks. I have to know when they are coming, and how I promote them. See above. This is working. Next step (new, improved version). 1.a. He'll call me to tell me things. About the kids, typically. But sometimes just about stuff. We're here right now. I can call him too. This is where we're at right now. I can call anytime for a legitimate reason. But keep it at that. No reading into answers, no expectations, no sighs, keep to the business. If he calls to tell me something funny, laugh along. If he calls to tell me he's upset about something, sympathisize and show compassion. Read the tone. Then hang up. This is all along the lines of lovingly distant. And when I'm brave, if I am ready to handle the put off - call to tell him something funny or sad. THEN hang up. NO lingering on my part. 1. b. He will show me some affection. He will put his arm around me. My response will be to say something along the lines of "you're so sweet " or "that feels nice" , MY natural sincere response and then let it go. See, we've kinda tried a bit before, but we (he) does the overboard thing. PATIENCE. Then back off, nicely though. Let's stop here for now. These are the goals for the next week or so. He may travel anyway. If he does he may kiss me. Respond but gently, very gently.
So, I think I'm getting this baby step idea here. Baby steps in every way. First each action is tiny, but in addition, my response has to be itsy bitsy. Then the next step is a little further away, but first keep my response itsy bitsy. The next step may be for H to continue with the same actions, but for my reaction to be a little bigger. I want you to know that what helps me is to always go to the Advise from Wise DB'ers forum. The one part I haven's gotten under my skin yet is "Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse" . I guess part of that is not responding emotionally to what they say. But there's more to it that I haven't gotten yet. Learning, patience. I swear I get there. Sarah
Boy, is setting goals hard! I want my marriage back!!! That is first and foremost! I have started by looking at things that I felt were not there. This lead to what do I need to do. I have reordered them so that they make sense (I think). I re-examined how to answer these questions and found that I had to go into a third person mode to get going, but once I got started it got a bit easier. I am getting the feeling that I will be adding to this list of things throughout the rest of my life. I have tried to follow each item up with signs and what to dos.
So here is the start,
Things for me to do!!!
How do you get there?
1) Do those things today that need to be done today. a. Stop putting things off because they are not fun or are hard to do. b. Make lists of things to do and stick to them.
2) Show her the same courtesies that you would want and seem to demand. a. Do not filter the information give it complete, she really wants to know the whole story. b. Tell her about phone calls, who was on the phone etc. (use the memo pad! always) c. Make a list of things of note that happened today and share it.
3) Show the devotion that you feel. At all times not just when it seems convenient. a. Do not ask what is going on only when she seems tense or out of sorts. b. Continue to be a good communicator. Just keep telling her what I am thinking and feeling and ask questions. (This is tough in conjunction with the Last Resort Technique; I have to stay away from the too emotional stuff.) c. Continue my therapy and self-improvement. i. Continue to journal. ii. Get a good personal counselor to help with the deep-rooted problems. (Childhood issues) d. Reconnect with the kids. Help them with their homework, play games. NOT TV! e. Fix the house. Is there ever something that does not need to be done? f. DO NOT FLIRT! This has got to hurt! Even if she does not say so! g. Ask her once a week what can I do better? Listen/hear and put it into your next action plans. (This will have to wait until she makes overtures of reconciliation)
Things that I would like from her.
1) Time for me/us, without it seeming like a chore or an interruption in her schedule. a. Initiate the evening out; get a baby sitter etc. b. Turn off the TV after the kids go to bed and say hello with a smile and a wink. c. Ask me if I am happy with the way things are going. And mean it, do not let me shrug it off.
2) Tell me that she understands why I am working and doing even when I really do not want to. a. She could insist that I take time off for no other reason than to hang out! b. Just tell me that I am doing a good job and that even though it does not seem like they appreciate it they do. (She and the kids)
3) Ask for help and be specific. a. I know that the house needs to be cleaned, but what would she like me to do? b. Go ahead and stop what she is doing and show me how she needs it done. (I know this seems odd for adults, but we see complete, as two different things.)
I think you've hit something on the head... I'm an overly analytical person at times and I think I expect too much at times. A friendly email I'll interpret as my H thinking that he's going to end the A. I read too much into it, I guess.
So... I've got to focus on those babysteps, right? I guess I'm too focused on what I want the outcome to be, rather than working on myself.
jwhetnc, It doesn't sound as if you slipped too much and I like the way you got right back on track. that's great. Don't lose any sleep over your mini-slip. It's no big deal. I like your going dark plan. And, by the way, you're welcome.
saved woman, You plan sounds great. I like it. Let us know what happens.
Aussiedave, Your goals are clear and concise. The only suggestion I would have is about your telephone conversations. "2)She would stop trying to limit our communication and not act like she must be the first to hang up when we talk" So what will be happening instead? Will you try to get off the phone first? Besides this, you're doing great.
edna, I love your dog idea. It will give you a way to interact with him. You're very creative. I like your plan a lot. Thanks for the kind words as well. I appreciate it.
Sarah, I love what you have written and how much thought you've put into it all. You are a Dber Xtreme. Keep up the good work.
Flj, Another really great, specific set of goals. Terrific. even though you said it was hard to do, you did a good job. Now do what you need to do to make them happen!!!
Bluekeys, you're very welcome. yes, focus on the babysteps. It's the only way to get there. I'm rooting for you! Michele
Michele, I stuck to my plan since Saturday and made no contact with her other than a few informational emails concerning household things - or family matters. I had agreed to bring her mail in to her when I come in to work (since we live so far out of town). I just go by her work and put it in her truck - no contact with her. But, yesterday when I dropped off the mail I also put a couple of jackets in her truck for her - since its turned cold here - and I didn't know if she had taken any with her (because she only took some essential items when she moved out). I wasn't sure how she would perceive my dropping off the jackets, but felt it was the right thing to do.
Well, she called my cell phone last night around 7:00. I didn't answer (part of my LRT). She left a very touching voice mail message, thanking me for bringing the stuff to her. She really sounded surprised by my actions, and sincerely touched. She seemed to be kindof at a loss for words, stuttering a bit, and even had a little nervous chuckle in there - as if she didn't know what to say.
I could definitely hear something different in her voice. I stuck to my LRT though, and did not call her back. I want to be patient and let her come to me. But, my PMA is on a very good level right now.
So I am doing good as far as using my DB skills with my H, just not with myself.