Hi Michele and all-- Just wondering. How does one go about setting goals when one is separated and dark? My h and I have been separated since January, dark since May, gray in June and July, and deep ebony since then. Yet he continues to pay rent on my apartment, hasn't changed his mailing address or filed for D (or even brought up the subject), and asked me for a long warm hug when we saw each other for the first time in months two weeks ago. (There's also an OW whom he works with in the picture.) I still believe in the possibility of saving my M, but I'm not sure what kinds of goals to set in these circumstances. I've been holding it together ok I guess--doing well at work, going out with friends, and being pleasant yet detached with h. But I feel sort of aimless in terms of setting feasible goals. What kinds of goals might be productive goals in my sitch? I'm still ready to fight the good fight in the name of DB, but I could really use some guidance. Thanks for being there all, and thanks for this BB Michele! Edna
Michele, Thanks so much for your comments and advice to us. It really means a lot.
It's hard to understand how someone could love you so much, and then turn into a person you can hardly recognize. I sure hope that my W is still there underneath it all.
Hi Michelle, I have to start by saying, THANKYOU so much for being there for all of us on this board. It is really a comfort to know you are there. I have such a hard time setting the goals, and following through. I had a phone consult, (which was excellent). The coach and I figured out to start with me. So... that is my first goal, but now am lost to the others. I am currently trying the LRT, of course started AGAIN, this week. I have not had any contact with my H besides e-mails,and over the phone since Sunday. There is OW,I get so tense just thinking about all this, and I think that makes me cut my goals short. I am just truly lost on where, when, and how to start. Thankyou Michelle, loneheart
Thanks, Michele. I've been really thinking about your advice and I think that lack of patience on my part is my biggest problem. An example of a baby step (the ONLY baby step in 6 months that I am 100% sure of) is he sent an e-card on the anniversary of our son's (only child) death. This was a step because he didn't acknowledge our son's birthday, the holidays, our anniversary, etc for the past year. I freaked out for a few weeks after that, got my hopes up - "He cares, he thought about me enough to take the time to send an e-card, he was nice in what he wrote, etc, etc". Took me a while to calm down, after all, it was the first step in 6 months. So my PMA skyrocketed and then plummeted when I responded to the e-card (followed DB rules with what I wrote - "Thanks for the e-card, I miss our son today too and I was thinking about you also. Hope you're doing well, etc" short and sweet, no pressure). And then he didn't respond to that so my PMA took a nosedive. If I can keep my PMA steady, next time there is communication hopefully I can be more detached, think of it more as friendly contact rather than the getting all excited and impatient and obsessively hoping that this is the beggining of him coming home. I don't know why he sent the e-card, maybe because he cares, maybe only because it was the "nice thing to do" - I have to stop trying to read into things too much. So I guess my goal is to have more control over my emotions and therefore have more control over how I respond and how I appear to him.
Question for you - how do we achieve these goals by being dark? I've been dark for 5 months now, extremely dark. A question many of us have discussed on the board is - how dark is too dark? If we are too dark does it give our WAS the impression that we have moved on and have no interest in saving the marriage? Being dark has helped me tremendously, to give me time and distance to pull myself together and get my new life together. But it sure isn't helping on the communication between H and I, especially since communication was our biggest problem. My H is so laid back and introverted I worry that even if he wanted to talk, fear and his pride wouldn't let him and me being dark for so long is reinforcing his belief that him being a WAH was the right decision. Hope all that made sense. Would be great if you could give advice on goals and being dark with little/no communication, so many of us here are dealing with that and aren't sure what to do so we do nothing and none of us are sure if it's making our situations better or worse. Thank you, Michele.
For me going dark is detaching, review Detaching in Advise from Wise D'Bers forum, and keeping a PMA. On the other hand I do understand your question and I struggle with that too, how do we communicate without much interaction, and without communicating like we used to? PATIENCE? They'll come around when they're good and ready? I really want to launch into my drama here, but analyzing or venting about my sitch has not helped one iota in the last 2 yrs. Our job here is to list our dos and don'ts, list the baby steps we'll see has we are approaching our gaols. We can always break down our baby steps into tinier steps. Maybe all we can do now is work on ourselves, make ourselves happy for a change. That way if and when they do come back we are better prepared, we'll have developed new patterns of interaction, so our R doesn't instantly return to its former (probably dismal) state, so our old behavior patterns don't rise to the surface again. I also think I know what you feel when one of your baby steps are met (you got an e-card) but there was no follow-up. Maybe that's when you add another baby step similar to the last one, because H has his own schedule to get to the next step. I went out on a limb too; it was still in line with my list of Do's, I showed myself by sharing some email I had with a girlfriend who we've known for years. I received a dismal response from H. So, here, I guess I have to remember not to have any expectations, and not to read into his response and let it affect me one way or another. Remember to do things for ourselves and then their response won't be so loaded. Go back to your goals, and measure how we're doing there. We made a pact that this would be our measuring stick, so let's focus there. I know how much devastation we feel with each passing second, but we have to keep our heads above the water. Sarah
Thanks Michele, That is definitely the hope, that somthing will change in a moment's notice. I don't know if giving my H time and space is the key here, I don't think sharing my inner thoughts is the key, so I guess I've been doing the "if it doesn't work do something -anything - different". Find the things that do work and keep doing them. Maybe now the only things that work are the things that make me happier. I do know of 3 situations where the H's came back when their Ws had given up or let go - detached?. Maybe that's when they had found themselves again and returned to being the real people they were, not dependent on their H and his responses. Sarah
Thanks for providing advice Michele. I realized that i need to take things a bit slower, and deal in reality, not wishful thinking. Here are some updated, hopefully more "i will" oriented and specific goals. My over-riding goal right now is to re-establish a friendship with my S, and permit her to start trusting me again on little things, hopefully working up toward larger things like trusting me with her heart.
I will be legally separated tomorrow, and moving out of our apartment by the end of October, so I would like to use the next few weeks to set up for future DB'ing efforts, using this time to my advantage.
My goals are:
1. I will act completely at-ease with the settlement agreement/divorce/me moving out, communicating to her that I am both a) perfectly secure about my own future, and b) will not fight her about anything, but will support her and see her side of things.
2) I will be friendly, yet detached, when I see her. I will not start any conversations beyond those about the weather, current events or other small-talk topics.
3. I will find things to give her sincere compliments about.
4. I will listen to her side of all discussions, showing a genuine interest in her life (while not prying), and talking minimally about my own life.
5. I will not ask any questions about her plans for the future. I will live in the here and now.
6. I will offer my friendship and support, without expectation.
7. When/if I feel myself getting emotional about things, or unable to do 1-6, I will remove myself from her presence to get myself in balance again.
8. I will continue to offer help and assistance to her around the house, including fixing things, cleaning things, purchasing shared groceries (milk, etc.) as long as I am living with her, while respecting the fact that she may want to start taking care of more of these household items herself.
9. If she rejects any friendly overture to her, or is hostile to me, I will not get upset, but ignore it and do my own thing.
10. I will focus on who I am at my core, and continue working toward who I intend to become, and who I can be.
Michele, I just wanted to tell you that I think my W has hit some of the goals that I set concerning phone calls. I mentioned it in my thread - but didn't know if you would catch it.
She called me today to tell me that she went by the house to check her mail, then proceeded to tell me how funny it was when she was at the counter reading her mail, that one of the cats had jumped up from behind her onto her shoulder and then to the counter - forcing her to give him attention. She asked me if I had ever seen him do that before, and I told her that I hadn't - that he must have really missed her.
She then talked to me for a while, telling me about the couple she was living with, some of the things she had been doing.
The point is - She was sharing things with me. So, that is one of the goals I had on my list. Plus, she didn't even have to call me to tell me she had gone by the house - she had left a note too. She could have just let me read the note - but she called anyway.
Michele, right now I could go for a huge Chinese dish... dim sum sounds great.
I really appreciate your participation in our discussions here.
What causes someone to be deceptive? I'd like to attempt to rebuild some trust, but on my part after having discovered all that I have, I'm not sure if I can trust again. That's a big part of my problem--as if I can't trust my own insticts again. Does this make any sense?
Edna, I certainly can understand why you feel unclear about goals. With such little contact, it's hard to know what to do. However, I have a few thoughts.
The first thing you should recognize is that sometimes, the best thing you can do when you're DBing is to stop yourself from making things worse, from burning bridges behing you. If you keep youself on an even keel, if your uncertain spouse is ready to come back to Planet Earth, you will have kept the door open. This is an enormous feat for most people because going through this process is like living in hell. And when you live in hell, you feel like doing hellish things from time to time. but if you surrender to those bad feelings, you will undoubtedly push your spouse away. So, the good news is that you haven't done this. You should be proud of yourself.
Now to the hug, the mysterious hug. Who knows what's going on there? I would wonder if your spouse is starting to miss you a bit. You might consider coming out of the dark in a very small way and test the waters. Not knowing your relationship, it's hard to know what would seem natural. Would a casual email fit? Or a phonecall just to say hi? The important thing here is to do things casually and keep your eyes open for his response. If he balks in any way, time to go back to the dark. Test the waters, see what happens.
But this doesn't answer your question about goals. Ask yourself, "What could happen in the next week or two that would be extremely usual given the way things have been going recently?" That would be a good way to start.
whetnc, You say it's hard to understand how someone could love you so much and then turn into a person you can hard recognize. I completely understand why you feel that way and there are many, many people here who would agree. However, know that if people can change rather dramatically for the worse, they can also change in the other direction. Don't forget that.
Loneheart, I know how difficult this process is for you. It's hard for everyone going through it. I'm glad the telephone coaching was helpful to you. Since you now have a plan, I would suggest that when you wake up each morning make a list of things you're going to do to stay on track. Then do them. Review your list at the end of the day to see your progress. This will help you feel better and take your mind off of the OW- something you definitely need to do, as hard as it might seem. Okay?
savedwoman, Now I understand what you mean when you say that you "over-react" when something positive happens. I completely understand your feelings and you're right when you say that you need to slow down. If he thinks you're becoming too optimistic about his approaching you, you will scare him away. Let me give you a suggestion.
If he sends you another email...or something like that... you can write back about your appreciation, but be low key about it and add YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RESPOND. I am not expecting anything from you, I just wanted to say thanks, have a nice day," or something like that. that will make him feel less nervous, okay?
About being too dark. Read what I wrote to Edna. That should apply to you and anyone else wondering about testing the waters. If things have been at a standstill for a long time, there's nothing wrong with doing something small to see what happens. Just be prepared to stop without drama if it doesn't work. Okay? It's a really good question, thanks for asking.
Sarah, Your wisdom in both your posts shines through. Make yourself happy and detach. You couldn't have said it any better. Thanks for sharing what you've been learning.
MJ, Your goals are clearly stated and right on target. they're great. Now just put them somewhere where you can see them and remind yourself to do them. You will be a pro DBer when you do! Believe me, you will.
jwhetnc, How great to get good news! You must feel pretty darn good about this. Just keep your eyes focused on the prize and keep us posted on more progress towards your goals!
bluekeys, After you've been betrayed, trust is slow in returning. In fact, for now, you shouldn't even been thinking that trust is a reasonable goal. It's reasonable to be cautious. Once a relationship gets back on track and its loving again, trust can slowly return. So don't expect things that are unreasonable, okay? As to why people are deceptive, there are many, many reasons. Without knowing your spouse it's hard to say.
But don't sit around analyzing this for too long because you'll lose the strength you need to DB all the way. Someday, if things go the way you want, you'll have answers. And even if you don't, at that point, it won't matter to you. So focus yourself on staying on track. Once your marriage is on the road again, you will feel that your instincts are trustworthy. You really will.
