Your H asking for a boyfriend girlfriend thing doesn't sound very strange at all. I can't speak for personal experience since I didn't make it to piecing, and am still trying to find some of my missing parts. But let me share ideas.
The MLCer doesn't feel right in their own skin. They have to get away from it and the binds it places on them. I see some posts by folks that have been sep due to an A, and the WAS hopes to come back home and live as if nothing ever happened.
How can a MLCer do that? How can we expect them to jump right back into a skin that rejected them from life once already. To try to pretend nothing happened seems fatalistic in a way. I can understand him thinking how nice it might be to have honest open heartfelt talks about each others feelings, likes, dislikes, the whole dating thing. After MLC, he is a different person than you knew before. He is finding his way into his next adulthood and needs to come to know it and understand it completely. He wants to embrace it, and you.
BarbieDoll was wise to point out to you that things can go wrong. I don't think she did anything wrong in asking questions, if he was ready. He wasn't and she could not have known that. Her MLC sounds like he decided he could not come back if he was going to be quizzed about things instead of being forgiven. It could be hard to forgive someone while wondering the whole time "WTF were you thinking the whole time?" Inquiring minds want to know.
Do not ask. Let him lead those talks. Let him tell you what he wants when he wants, regarding the past. Remember the biggest problem for the MLCer was in fact, their past ... all the way back to childhood. Now they have completely misbehaved, and dwelling on that makes it hard for them to develop that positive self esteem that was absent as they were drawn toward MLC.
Your future is not in the past.
Your kids future is not in the past.
Your H's future is not in the past. Don't ask about things that will cause him great pain right now. When you do talk, talk about future. Talk about why you think he is worth waiting and fighting for. Not about his genius, muscles, or dimples .... although he will like to hear that too. Think about telling him that he has been learning so much about himself and how to listen to his heart, like only a wonderful complete and whole person can. Discuss how this kind of feeling and discussion is going to never end. This is the life you want with him. Open talk from the heart. No blame and no excuses. What is in life, just is. The two of you will honestly grow together in what is and become in awe of what will be .... together.
If talk goes to his childhood or yours, it should be non judgemental. It should be intended to help him see that things just happen in life and people get preprogrammed unwittingly to experience natural reactions to stimulus.
Things that may have little effect on one person leave another feeling worthless. Things that are said without such intention can still be very destructive. He needs to feel safe talking about his feelings so you can learn what hits his nerves ... like two people starting dating.
You need to let him know your own thoughts and concerns in non threatening ways. I hope by now you have read Mars-Venus a few times on communications, and 5LL at least once. He probably hasn't in his transition. You could comment on some commonly misunderstood signals or statements between men and women and how "isn't it odd that we can reach this age in life without actually understanding some things that are quite simply different? It should be taught in school!"
If a little something catches his interest or curiosity, maybe he would try reading a chapter or two. I think he would get hooked and the clarity it will provide him.
I spoke with a neighbor's son who was sep from his wife and small daughter. I gave him MarsVenus a week before he started IC. He was then told by IC to read it, and impressed the IC by stating he already had it and was half through it. They are back together and in MC together. They spend thirty minutes a night after the girl is asleep just talking about the current chapter they are reading or about each others feelings. They communicate. They make time to communicate.
I have shared a witty thought that this should be done naked in the dark. No barriers. Create a sense of total vulnerability for discussion. But of course, only when the two of you have begun to communicate effectively and regularly. It seems like a good way to take it to the next level. And then of course, to the bedroom.
BTW ... MarsVenus has a book about the bedroom also. More things that are often misunderstood between the species.
Baby steps. Patience. The same things that got you this far will keep you on track. You are going to be anxious. It is natural. Breath deep. Relax. His clock has been ticking at a different rate than yours. His clock may still be eratic. He may zoom forward one day but spin backward the next. Expect eratic. Don't be set back by it. Breath deep. Also know how totally jealous I am of your opportunity, and the wonderful life you two are putting together ... not just "back together". This next stage in your lives will be deeper, richer, and more rewarding than anything you would have expected in the past. It is the prize you worked for. Enjoy slowly, like an expensive meal.
glad I read the post tonight. Good timing. As BND and you know, I am having some trouble piecing it all with H wanting back in the M, but under his terms I guess. I feel differently about him than I did before, mostly not as good. I've said love is a choice, and yet I fear making it.
I sooooo get what BND meant about being the strong one, all the time, every day, forever and ever. 24/7 parenting, house, yard, cars, bills, college applications, oh--wait, I HAVE A JOB/CAREER too.......When do we get a break? Jesus, if anyone had a right to bolt out the door, it wouldn't be the H's..... okay, I have a cold, and feel like crap. Maybe that's it. Patience.
BND, you are probably right about how I should be avoiding the OM, but I gotta tell you, I feel very little guilt so far. Of course, have not done anything major. But I like him, and he is kind to me... and oh, btw, guess what else?? HE IS HERE!!!!... H is NOT!!!! by his choice he lives in .....the one place I asked not to live.....first the fellowship/for his 197th credential, 300 miles, and now 3000 miles away for the world's "best job", which he sought NO WHERE else... Been gone going on 18 months now....what the hell am I supposed to do if this goes on forever?
No matter what I do, I have to hurt someone in my family, thanks to H's unilateral choices....my daughter's will be split up, and I'll have no boundaries enforced, if I go up there with d9... and if I don't go, then what? I guess the M ends, or what's left of it.....and d9 has no dad around....it stinks.
OKAY, I am venting...I understand everything you, BND, have said times ten. I only hope I can be as forgiving as you when I am with my H. He will be here for the holidays, as you know. Maybe when he's here I'll feel better. He rarely brings up R talk, unless it's about me coming up there.
Just curious, I should NOT tell H about OM correct? I mean, until IF and when I think I love OM, what's the point? I'm not sleeping with OM....yet... Why don't I feel a big guilt trip? Why?? Probably anger. Maybe that's what this is all about. I thought I had gotten better about that. But H really hurt our M, me, and our d's... and especially d17. ...This is her father who left us/her just before her junior year of HS and is still gone for her senior year....her grades dropped last year and although they are high again, the GPA suffered enough to keep her out of the IVy Leagues, where her brother is...and where she could have been....maybe I should be glad she's going to save us so much money in tuition. The damage is real, and the effects on others b/c of his choices, OMG, they're huge......Do I even get to mention it to H? What's the point?
Forgiving for what they did to us is one thing; I've got my faults too. But dang, BND how do you deal with your kids' pain? How can I help D17 to reconcile with H and how can I help him to do whatever it is he needs to do to get that with her? HOW did your d start getting better with your H? What did it take? Who did what?
My b-day last week, I got 2 dozen roses from H and a message(s) that included how "much better our future will be, this will be the last birthday of [mine} we'll be apart..." etc......I was happy with that, and grateful. Better than last year for sure.... But then fear comes in and I find myself wondering.... I wonder, HOW will it be better? Then anger pops up AGAIN.....Oh You mean, if I move up there, NEVER feeling that our M and family are as important as his flippin' job? .....dang, way toooo negative right now.
I must get this worked out soon. I cannot go up there with THIS attitude or failure will be a certainty....
If only I believed that H wanted US more than anything else.......BND, I know you get it.... Oh the irony of it all....if H volunteered to give his stupid job up, I'd move there for a trial at least...ANYHOW, another hijack. SORRY guys!! Wth?? Why don't I just post this elsewhere? How do I do that? Copy and paste? (No pc skills here...thought the little people would do that for me when I went to school...big mistake.)
BND, I am still wanting to do the "DB a thon" for your H at Christmas. Let US know where to send the checks!! FOLKS, catch my earlier post about sending bucks into BND's sitch so her H can come home this Christmas....seriously, I am throwing in 100$ and another guy is too, so that's 200$ so, BND, what does it cost? You have helped a lot of people and inspired so many and wth? At least you're a good cause that I actually "know"...DBers, pitch in please!!
And BND, as for your H's comments re: dating, I agree with W2, that your H is being "normal", (for MLC and whatever "normal" means with it). Although you may have feared it meant some sort of "open" R, I didn't get that.... Plus, you are "exploring in the bedroom", and all I can say to that is you Go Girl!!
What were you saying you feared? An "Open" R?? ***Btw, reminds me of a crazy woman I knew who told me her H and she had an "open" M, and she "always" told her H whenever she slept with OM, b/c "IF you don't have honesty in a M, how are you gonna have trust?"*** (I loved that line the moment I heard it....they are divorced...seriously....big surprise...)
Well, keep on keepin' on and tell us what to do with our checks! j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I am reading along here, and I want to share with you part of a post from the SSM board, written in response to a man who is sufffering from self esteem issues:
"Pick up David Dieda’s “Way of the Superior Man.” I found it very helpful because he puts a different twist on things, stating that a man’s primary purpose is not his woman, but his personal objective, whatever that might be. His commitment to his woman is in sharing his success and happiness with her, giving her the gift of his accomplishments, his confidence, security, compassion."
I understand how hurt you are by your H's actions, but maybe he was in such a bad space that he went "beserko" trying to define his essential purpose. He has to get some bearing of himself as a man before he can embrace you. In his state of mind, he has done a lot of damage in the process..only you can determine if it's worth salvaging. I'd be leary of getting drawn in by OM until you make this decision.
( now returning the thread back to BND and her stuff)!
((((J))) First of all thank you for your very kind and sweet gesture to help me get my Husband home for Christmas.
But I also know that most people are totally strapped financially at this time of year and are trying to provide for their own families.
The airfare is expensive right now, more then double the usual costs. I did check online at Orbitz and it is about $900, which is outrageous.
I will continue to pray for a miracle but it is nothing that I am counting on. The very fact that I have friends here on this board who would even consider this just floors me, thank you!!
As for your sitch. Oh J, I do know the inner struggle from which you speak.
Trying to forgive the atrocities of our WAS and trying to love them while the thoughts of the damage they have done comes to the forefront of our minds and sometimes negates all of the good they are trying to do.
Allowing yourself to be vulnerable and let down your guard with absolutely no guarantees.
Protecting your children's emotions like a Mother bear because there is nobody else who can be their advocate, because your other half went AWOL and never looked back to see the damage he did.
And now you have found this OM who makes you feel all of the things you NEED to feel not only as a person but also as a woman.
Neither your H or the OM is a sure thing. And NO do not tell your H about the OM.
I am trying to be realistic in the fact that my life will never be the same as it was before MLC. I have never stopped loving him but I have stopped trusting him. Trust will have to be earned over time.
I also think for you it means giving up control and allowing your Husband to resume his place as head of the household. A place that technically he doesn't deserve because this would mean that he had been there and put his family first, no matter what.
Allowing him to be the man and giving up your voice is a huge decision to make and I think it can be done IF there is a full commitment from him.
As for my H and the boyfriend/girlfriend thing, I do understand what he was saying. We talked a little about it yesterday.
I think a huge part of my problem during the marriage was making the children a priority, not him.
At this stage of the game he wants us to enjoy each other and make our relationship a priority outside of the Mommy/Daddy role.
When we go out I don't dress like MOM, but rather his sexy wife that he can show off. Gee, I've never been a trophy wife before!
Our relationship in the bedroom has changed also, neither of us in as inhibited as before and that has also helped. We are both able to talk about what we want and that makes a big difference.
I can see that he really put up with alot of crap from me, after going through so many pregnancies, and the hormones and the nursing and haveing no outside support from family.
I had a hard time losing the last 30 pounds after the last baby was born and I was also very tired and worn out. I saw some photos of myself recently from that time period and I looked like hell.
He compliments me daily on my appearance, the way I dress now, the makeup, my size 2 body. He told me that I am the first person he thinks of when he wakes up each morning and the last when he goes to bed at night.
These are things I needed to hear for a long time, and so as shallow as I might seem, I like being told that my Husband finds me beautiful and sexy.
I will no longer allow myself to be 2nd best. I need to be first and have told him this.
J, you do not have to make a decision right now, the fact that you are still wavering means that you are undecided. See how things go at Christmas and play it by ear.
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
Quote: I am trying to be realistic in the fact that my life will never be the same as it was before MLC.
That trust issue was something I thot a great deal about until one day something new occurred to me. My friends don't trust my H at all - we all know of his past. My best friend said to me one day - I don't trust "h" but I do trust you! She knew that I was getting my leadings from what God would have me do and so knew to stay out of it with what she thinks. As I thot about that I said "hey, that's the way H feels". He does not trust me either. He's not ready to commit to coming back because he is afraid it will go right back to what it was. And of course I don't trust him totally either. BUT........and this is a huge BUT...........I trust my God implicitly. I have seen what He has done over the last 10 months of my life. It is beyond anything I could have imagined.
And isn't this where my hope and trust have to be? Not in my husband........but rather, in my God who is the One doing the healing. As soon as I start getting antsy about things I refocus on what I KNOW God has shown me and take my eyes off H. Then the peace comes back in.
As human beings we can not be totally trustworthy - none of us - we all fail at many things. But with God as our conduit, our healer, our everything........we can move on with confidence even tho we do not know what our future holds.
Now that I cling to God's hand - I find it so much easier to be vulnerable to H which is not a place I was able to be before. I was filled with too much fear of being hurt. But you know? That fear is what hurt the marriage so much. I was unable to love the way he needed me to- I held back.
Thank God for the last 10 months.
As for you..........you have muddled thru 4 years and suddenly it seems to be coming to an end. Can it really be? Can you trust this? If you hold on to the hand of your God, who has brot you this far........you can trust it completely. You have a great life in store for you two as a couple. Keep your love growing with each other and you will be able to handle the other stumbling blocks that come your way.
I wish I could give you $900 for a ticket. That is a ridiculous price. Alas, I don't have it - it's tough to buy presents for my kids - which is not likely to happen this year. I know you're not asking for money - just wanted you to know - if I could I would cuz you are very special.
Was2!!!!!! Wow...........what a post........thank you......I think that was for me!
brue
I'm alive, I'm happy - why shouldn't I tell the world I've got my head screwed back on just fine. Life is good for the Brue!
W2S and Brue, Thank you, thank you. I know I am gonna get there and maybe it might be good to have doubts at times rather then to take things for granted and think that nothing will go wrong.
So for now, I will try really hard to dwell on the positive and stop allowing my mind to wander.
I do hope that one day this really will all be just a bad memory.....for all of us
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
I cooked for 100 people at church, we had an Agape Feast. So at the end of the day I finally got to check my voice mail and there were 3 lovely messages from my Beloved.
All encouraging wonderful messages. I really needed to hear those words. It is amazing how a little affirmation and words of encouragement can go a long long way
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
Quote: It is amazing how a little affirmation and words of encouragement can go a long long way
You know BND you just hit the nail on the head for me over my dilemma about the weekend I just had (see my thread for details). The weekend started with just one person telling me I looked lovely. A person I had never met in my life. It is so long that I heard any compliments that it really threw me but yes it was so wonderful. This same person later on in the weekend went on to tell me that instead of referring to 'when h left me' I should say 'when we separated'. I told him my mind wasn't ready for that just yet but I can see now how saying things his way is more positive. He knows he's been there got the t-shirt and after a lot of hard work come out the other side although sadly not with an intact M.
Me 43 XH 45 M 2.7.88 Divorce 7.10.09 Kids D20,S17 & D15
I am so happy your H is stepping in and supporting and loving you in all the ways he can while he is far away. You are such a wonderful human being, putting energy and love into your spiritual community with so much on your plate as it is. You are amazing. I hope you will be taking some time for you soon too! But meanwhile, it is just the best thing that your H is tuning in to what you need.
I have just gotten my first round of H's negative feelings. I made a really long post on my thread I guess this is a good thing? I hold a candle out for the day when I can be where you are in my sitch. Cheers to you, BND! May the blessings of this special season fall upon your family and home in abundance. Hugs to you, and gratitude for who you are.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
I guess this is a good thing? I hold a candle out for the day when I can be where you are in my sitch. Cheers to you, BND! May the blessings of this special season fall upon your family and home in abundance. Hugs to you, and gratitude for who you are.