Book Club 2

[PennyRose]

Hi Everyone
I need some help - I can't seem to find anything in either The Divorce Remedy or in Divorce Busting about rekindling love/passion.
I got the old "I don't love you to the same depth that you love me" speech.
I need some concrete ideas as to what to do. I feel like I'm hitting a stone wall here.
Thanks
Penny

[doer42]

posted October 04, 2001 08:00 PM               
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Michele,
Couple weeks since last posting here. Saw wife on monday, mainly to spend time with SD. She acted somewhat distant. Topic came up about when I asked her to move out. She makes is sound like she didnt want to move but didnt want the R to work either. I just said I made a lot of mistakes and wish I had done somethings differently and left it at that. A day or so later I sent an email thanking her for letting me spend time with her daughter and a few small compliments, ie her place looked nice. However 2 days after she read it she hasn't responded, which is unlike her. So I think after reading Ch 5, I might have to use LRT. I have stopped saying the L word, but do compliments have to be cut out as well. I know she thrives on these and are part of her love language (did I just answer my own question?). Or is just being more unavailible good enough? We still have joint bank accounts which she still has access too, but doest use much, yet! Do I need to close these and let her start working w/o a net as it were? Is this also part of the LRT technique, becoming distant in many areas that where once available?

Thanks. D

[Harmony]

I've read DB and just got DR and immediately read the chapter on Infidelity. I am still totally confused!

H claims the A is over and that he wants to work on the marriage, yet:

--He still works with OW and refuses to look for a different job. (BTW this is a second job and not his main source of income, plus I have started working part-time to replace that income and have offered to work full-time to replace the insurance benefits that his second job provides.) He also spends recreational time once a week at this place.

--He has stood me up at two counseling appointments with two different therapists. His excuse for the first one was that it was a Christian therapist (we met through a Christian singles group and our shared faith was the foundation of our marriage), though he knew this when I made the appointment. He refused to go to the second (HMO) therapist because "the insurance doesn't cover marriage counseling", even though the intake person said that even though only one of us could be the official patient, we could both attend the sessions and essentially have marriage counseling anyway.

--H gave me Chlamydia as a result of his unprotected sex w/OW, and he refuses to allow me to contact her (because he promised no contact w/her) to notify her that she needs to see a doctor. He threatened to leave again if I pursued contact with her. Claims he "wants the past to stay in the past".

--He never talks about OW, such as whether she tried to talk to him at work or anything like that, and if I refer to the A and its sequelae on me (STD), he gets angry and defensive and punishes me with the cold shoulder for two or three days.

My suspicion is that the A is not over as he claims and that I should cease referring to the A and OW, so my recovery is completely on hold, but I cannot confirm nor disprove my suspicions because of a lack of resources. Going by his behavior, though, he appears to fall into the category of an ongoing A.

How will I know when the A is truly over so that I can do what the earlier part of the Infidelity chapter talks about (ask questions about the A, ask for reassurance, etc.)? Right now, it seems that the only test is to risk mentioning it and getting rejected again.

The chapter basically gives two opposite courses of action for the betrayed spouse, and I'm having a difficult time knowing which approach to take and when. Before reading that chapter, I had just decided to stop bringing it up and do everything his way, but at some point, don't I have to process all the information about the A so I can get beyond it? I have triggers constantly and have been doing my best to deal with them away from H and not let on to him my unbearable suffering. But I just don't think I'll be able to maintain this facade for very long.

Anyway, any insight on when we can actually get into the wound and clean it out would be most welcome. How will he be acting when the A is truly over, and is there any way to test the waters without risking his wrath again?

Harmony

[Michele]

Harmony,
I'm not surprised you're confused because you're in a very difficult situation. The chapter on infidelity begins with a step-by-step map for healing from the betrayal when both spouses are eager to get their marriage back on track. The next section refers to people whose spouses won't give up their affairs. It's clear from what you wrote that your h doesn't fit the first category; that he isn't willing to be supportive or reassuring in order to win back your love. He just wants you to drop it.

Without knowing more about what you've tried in regards to getting him to be more responsive to you, it seems that his commitment to the marriage is questionable. Is that right?

If he isn't fully committed to the marriage, pushing him about being forthcoming and more responsible might just push him out the door. On the other hand, if you set limits in a firm but loving way, he might come through for you. The point is, it's impossible for me to predict which will happen. You should only set firm limits if you're prepared to have him bail out if it doesn't work. That's a decision only you can make. I certainly can understand how you'd want him to shape up- given his irresponsible behavior. But in order for him to take your feelings to heart, he has to want to stay married. So, you're the expert here- you must be the one to decide what happens next.
Michele

[Michele]

Doer,
Yes, LRT means becoming unavailable. Your ideas are good. I know they're hard to do, especially when you want to be loving, but it's important for you to follow your plan. Good luck!
Michele

[Michele]

Yazzie and Wintergirl-
You both have questions about 180's and the Last Resort Technique- Can they go too far?

Look, the important part of doing a 180 is introducing the unexpected into your interactions. This doesn't mean that you should completely withdraw. Nor does the LRT mean that either. Doing the LRT means stopping the begging, pleading, pursuing, getting a grip on your own life and being more upbeat. But if your spouse starts to take an interest, that's a good sign and you should be available. Not clingy, mind you, but interested.

I think it might be tempting to back off completely and stop having contact because it might feel safer not to interact at all.But neither technique suggest your doing that. Re-read page 130. I wrote that if your spouse starts to show interest, readers should "Be loving in return, but do not become overly excited or enthusiastic."

But the bottom line is this, the proof is in the pudding. If your spouse is responding lovingly, you're on the right track. If not, you have to finetune what you're doing. Hope this helps. Do re-read the section on the last resort technique. Okay?
Michele

[Jamesjohn]

Hi Michele! Don't really have a question here, just a comment on using 180's when dealing with a depressed spouse.

I've found that your suggestion about "acting-as-if" my W wasn't depressed works great! To take that idea one step farther........

Just recently, I was involved in a kind of sticky situation where I work. It was during a time when my W was rather "blue", and I usually would have dealt with it inside of myself, even IF W was 100% ok. Instead, I shared my problem with her, and used her as a sounding board.

Some of the problem was in an area she is quite familiar with, and quite good at. After talking with her, she suddenly became "energized", and began putting together materials to help me out. She became enthused, and came to life focusing on MY problem instead of hers.

The next day, I found some cards and notes in the material, words of encouragement, of praise, and of love. Seems like letting her help me with my problems this time created a change from our normal interactions, helped her feel a sense of worth, and added another tool in the "more-of-what-works" treasure chest.

Hope this helps someone else out there. Thanks for all of YOUR help, Michele!!

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Jamesjohn ]

[Harmony]

Michele,

H states that he is committed to rebuilding the marriage, and he is generally affectionate and loving and makes occasional gestures such as calling me from work, but when it comes to the biggies like counseling and talking about the A, he digs in his heels, and his latest statement was, "I'm going to do it my way, and I'm not going to follow anybody's script, including yours."

It is especially disappointing to me because before I agreed to take him back, I laid out for him everything I had learned about recovery and the extraordinary efforts that would be necessary to rebuild after such a blow. He agreed to do "anything", read books, go to counseling, etc., so I allowed him to move back in based on that. "Anything" soon was revised to "anything but that" whenever I tried to pursue any plan for recovery.

For the time being, I have decided to set a six-month limit on myself that he doesn't know about. I have challenged myself to act as if everything is okay (do it his way), be what he wants me to be, and see if he decides to get serious about the work that needs to be done. This way I have a light at the end of the tunnel and know I don't have to suffer in silence forever.

I have been writing down all my hurts, triggers, questions, outrage, everything that comes to mind about the A, in a notebook. This serves two purposes: 1) Anchors it so I can get it out of my head, and 2) Keeps a record of my journey and a ready-made place to start when and if H ever decides to help me recover from his A.

If he does not take a more active role in the rebuilding of the marriage by the end of the six-month period, then I will be more than ready to set and enforce the necessary limits. I will be getting repeat STD testing at the 3-month mark, and should this elicit any positive findings, THAT will advance the schedule immediately.

D-day, when he moved back in, was 1 month ago, and except for the few times I tried to discuss the A, our general interaction has been mostly like a honeymoon couple, so everything else I'm doing is working.

Because of that, I had a hard time trying to figure out what need the OP may be meeting as you suggest in that section of the chapter, and then it hit me that maybe it is admiration! He probably feels a lot of shame around me and knows he fell off his white horse. That is going to be a hard one for me to fulfill under the circumstances. I have no problem complimenting him on his looks, athletic ability, sexual skills, but when it comes to character qualities, all I can think of is that he works hard to provide for the family. At least it's a start.

Thanks for the expansion on what I read in DR, and now I'm going to go back and read the rest of the book!

Harmony

[yazzie girl]

Hi Michele -
Thank you for responding to our questions regarding the 180 and LRT. I'm still not sure what is the appropriate way to handle my situation. H is in serious MLC - mostly in the anger phase. He moved out end of August. At first I was pleading, begging, all the things I should not have been doing. I stopped doing that, which did result in some changes. However, what happened was he behaved as though it was quite alright to be my "buddy" when he wanted to talk about his new life or problems he was having. Otherwise, any contact initiated by me, even if it was to bring mail by his office, was met with an angry, disrespectful outburst.

When I pulled away completely - not answering his calls, etc. The outbursts have stopped (obviously). On the MLC boards, experienced posters are recommending complete detachment and no contact initiated by me. That is what I'm trying to do until he is able to work through his anger and unresolved issues. He seems to blaming me for eveything wrong in his life (even things that aren't wrong but just different from what he wants now). So, my laying low to avoid the fallout of his MLC crisis seems to be counter to what you are recommending. When it comes to MLC spouses, how do we DB lovingly AND give them their space to work through issus, especially when there is so much anger directed at us?

Thanks, Michele, I'm really confused about this.

Yazzie Girl

[SueAnn7]

Michele-

Thank you for DR. I'm not blind to the fact that not all marriages work out, but this book has given me a hope & outlook I absolutely did not have before.

I wish I would have bought this book when this whole situation started. I guess I was one of those people who thought this was just a phase & I kind of feel like this (excuse my language) hell I'm living through crept up on us so quickly.

I've always been a soft spoken person whose not complained about H going with his buddies and my H does a lot of what he wants to do. I've often stayed home and been where he knows I'm going to be and doing what he knows what I'm going to be doing. I use to have more control over our finances, but since our situation started, my H has been spending more money & spending more time with OW. I have tried getting mad, but that just makes him push away even further and makes him cold when I bring up the OW or the questions of "what, where, when, with who...etc."

I've always been a pretty affectionate person, but I'm trying to get out of that REALLY desperate, needy, clingy mode I've been in since this whole situation started. I guess I'm trying not to let him feed off of any anger I may have about this situation. I'm trying to do more for me and be a happier person again. Even though he is still insistent about going out of town to where I know he is seeing OW, he seems to be showing more of an interest in me and how and what I'm doing.

Does it sound like I'm on the right path? I hope so.

I'm in your area, so I'd love to see you or Arnold some time.

Thanks again. You've given me hope again.

[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: SueAnn7 ]