Would your H have contacted the weekend seminar people and had them put a little pressure on you? I posted on my link something about what I have been learning about my anger. Would that be the kind of thing you would be looking for in your H, and if so, how would he prove that he is trying replace the bad behaviors with good behaviors. What more would my W want to convince that true changes are taking place? How would guys like us begin to show our Ws that we really want it to be alot more about them? My W and I used to converse so well. We were always affectionate, not only in private. Right now, I cannot show her any of that. Please feel free to show him if you think it will help. It has really humbled me. Get him a copy of that book. Almost every case I have read is things I have done in anger, and none of those are healthy. Thank you so much DinWa for the book recommendation. I am not better yet, but I am starting to see the light, and also to understand how much W loved me to put up with that. Another idea just occurred to me about your birthday date. How about inviting a lot of friends to go along with you guys? If he balks, tell him that is your requirement for time to be spent together. He will not talk about the R in front of them, would he?
Quote: 2) b/c we have also lost our self-esteem. We wonder how did this person treat me like this? What is wrong w/ me? Or we want to understand "why" you could be so cruel or insensitive.
Wow, this one really turns the lights on for me. The last really honest/open email I got from my W contained the following:
Quote: ... I am sad and weary from all this. I have been neglected and left on my own for so long that it just feels normal by now. I told you last night that you make me feel like I am 100 years old. just weary and worthless. I also told you that I am sad from going so long without ever feeling special anymore. I realized that a lot of the sadness was actually guilt. I wanted to be special to you - on birthdays or anniversaries, or other days like that- and you didn’t make it happen. this of course makes me feel sad. but on top of that I would feel guilty. guilty for having wanted it. since I didn’t get it, I obviously didn’t deserve it, and shame on me for expecting it. while the guilt may be self imposed, it is still there. it is like the multiplier that makes it all worse.
Just posting that here makes me feel like I am biggest loser ever - but seems pretty obvious she feels the same way you do. I don't know how I get past this. I see the error in my ways now, but I honestly never intended to ignore her or make her feel unwanted. It was a kind of benign neglect. I know that doesn't make the sting any less real for her but I know that now that I am aware of the impact my actions (or lack of action) had on her, I can do much better. I am just hoping to get the chance...
No, I don't think he would contact the seminar people, but you never know what a desparate man will do. ANything is possible.
Right now, I would like to hear him talk about finding help via websites like this, reading self-improvement books of any nature, etc. I would like him to STOP the R talk altogether - let me bring it up. Most of the time, I do not want to talk to him b/c I am afraid we will get into the R talk. When I tell him I don't know - he starts pushing saying things like how can you not want to save our M? At this point, I think I would take any kind of effort.
Since you are already doing those things...I would think your W would see changes in how you interact w/ your children and to some degree how you interact w/ her.
He has not told me where he is taking me or what the plans are. H is being very secretive- trying to keep it a surprise - therefore, I don't think I am at liberty to invite others. Although, I would love to!!!
I don't know if he would talk about the R infront of friends or not. He came w/ me to my nephew's wedding a few weeks ago and he would wait until we were out of ear shot or he'd whisper to me something R related. I think the same might happen, but it would definitely be toned down.
Thanks for the suggestion of giving him the book. Too bad he can't make the effort to go purchase a book himself, eh? I already sent him the title/author in an e-mail yesterday.
Quote: Are you suggesting that I cancel the "date" (my birthday celebration) w/ H?
It really bothers me to say so, because any chance to have a "date" with my W would mean so much to me, but, yes, that is what I suggested. Not so much "cancel" the birthday celebration as tell him what a better celebration would be. That's if you believe the retreat ould be worthwhile. In that case, why not tell him you want his active participation in the retreat insetad of dinner and a movie, or flowers and a carriage ride, or whatever the "date" would be?
I admire you for being here and going through this to break the bad cycles in your M and work to build something good. How I wish my WAW would have the desire to work with me! I "don't get it" either, apparently, but I darn sure know I will do whatever I can to "get it" for our sake. Somehow your H has to wake up to something more than feeding the dogs, etc. Any real effort to work with you, through the retreat or something like that, might be a good sign. Hearing you tell him that the "date" either
is off, or
depends on how much he works on the retreat
just might be the shock he seems to need.
I wish you luck, and I'll be praying for both of you tonight.
Thanks,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
Quote: Thanks. Our "date" is supposed to be to celebrate my b-day...which is Saturday. Are you suggesting that I not go? He asked me out for Valentine's and I am using work as an excuse not to go. I think I would rather go out and have dinner w/ friends, but I do not yet have any such plans. It would be less stressful that way.
Do what will make you happy. My W told me she did not want me around on her B-day and I understood. I was disappointed, but it wasn't really about "me". It was her day and she could spend as she wished. I don't think it turned out like she wanted, but she was unwilling/unable to let me in and I understood.
I ask myself and sometimes H that same thing...How many times is enough. I mean really, when is enough, enough? I also had concerns before the marriage, but I was in-love w/ the idea of marriage and a family. I didn't get either, really. Just a piece of paper legally binding us.
I thought I did tell him what I wanted - while I was still living there. I would tell him: we don't write each other notes anymore or maybe you could do some things around the house so I wouldn't have to do it all. At midnight when I would come to bed after cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, etc. and he would be sleeping he'd wake up and want to play. I would tell him, I was too tired to play and I suggested he help me next time so that we would both be done earlier and had time to play before sleep. Again, I got nothing, but a guilt ttrip for not having s w/ him.
I am not currently telling him what I want b/c, to put it bluntly, it's not worth my effort. What I mean is Wednesday, I asked him specifically to work on his anger. I even sent him the name of the book, etc. His response - I don't have an anger problem. I keep asking him to work on himself and stop trying so hard to get me back by smothering me. Let me heal and recover from the past damage and show me this new person. In return, I get R talk and more pressure.
My H wouldn't understand. He stills thinks it's about getting us back together. All day long he has been sending me text messages telling me he loves me and for me to please talk to him. Finally, I called him and asked him what it was he wanted me to talk about. He just started in w/ R talk...trying to get me to commit to working things out. I told him I couldn't b/c I didn't see any real changes in his personality (the way he treats me) or in his behavior (other than the house keeping and care of the dogs). All my call did was serve to frustrate me and upset him.
I ended w/ that I had plans tonight so I had to go. He asked what plans, I just said none of his business. Good night. I hung up and turned my phone off.
What more can I do to get through to him? No R talk...why? B/c while the WAS is still hurting and angry it doesn't serve any purpose; other than upset both parties.
I know he loves me, but I don't think he knows how to give love in a way that I need.
You asked if it could hurt to let him know exactly what it is you need? Yes! It hurts me b/c unlike you and many others he isn't out here seeking help in any form. He confirmed that Wednesday night and again tonight. It only seems to get my hopes up and disappoint me later.
M, I'm another one of your adoring fans. I think it's really cool that you're here and trying to work on your marriage. Obviously you're here because you're searching for answers. I'd like to also give my thanks to you for all the good advice, insight, and time that you're freely giving.
Quote: I know he loves me, but I don't think he knows how to give love in a way that I need.
A suggestion is the book, "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. I found this book in the Christian section of Barnes and Noble. This is a good book and opened my eyes to some things. Like how people show love and perceive that love is being shown. I think we, all the folks on these BB's, are working with this issue.
It sounds like you've got a typical guy on your hands. Pretty dense. So, what to do about it?
The people that come to these boards are the ones that are searching for ways to help their marriage. I'd say, like DinWa's W, and hks's W, and Koshka's W, and my W, and probably Gene's W (sorry Gene, I'm not up on your sitch) trying to get them to read a book, let alone an article, about M or trying to really work on the M is pretty useless, right now.
I think the tack that we've all taken is to work on us. And then, in affect, lead by example. I think it is the case, in most of the broken relationships, that one party will need to do the leading. The other person either can't or won't see things. Sorry, I think it's "tag, you're it!"
I also think, that fixing relationships is a slow process. It's been stated many times on these BB's that the relationship didn't get to the point it's at right now overnight. It also is not going to be fixed overnight.
There are a couple of threads on these BB's from WAW's that have worked on their R's. One is from Tulip and one is from Nicky. Don't know if you've read them yet or not but here are the links:
I apologize if someone has already mentioned these threads. At any rate, I hope they might give you a little inspiration.
I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you to see changes in you H, then, to get back together, and then watch him lapse back into his old patterns again. grrrrr. Hang in there and hopefully the folks on these BB's can give you some information you can use in dealing with your "dumb guy". I think it took all of us "dumb guys" to get whacked with "Hey Honey, Guess what? I'm leaving you." to wake up. Maybe we need an acronym like WAW. Something like DGS for Dumb Guy Syndrome.
Happy Birthday. I hope and pray that today is a good day, and the start to many good days. Peace be with you.
I started reading the links that BetterDaysThanThese posted, and it is eye opening. Just as the conversations here with you have been eye opening. Today has been a nerve racking day. I am so nervous and desperate to call her. She is in Houston right now. I just hope she is alright and having fun (not too much fun ). I will not call. I will see her Monday morning for a few minutes. I will give her her space and work on my issues, and how to be better in an R. Hopefully, she will see the changes and begin to soften with time. I really don't see a way back until at least the end of March or April. That is alot of patience. I wish my W were like you M. I wish she were that dedicated to working on the R, then right now we would be alot closer because I also would be working on the R. That is what really pisses me off about your H sometimes. He has what most of the rest of us want. I have only been out 2 weeks, and this is your 5th time and it has been for 8 months, so I will be patient.
). I will not call. I will see her Monday morning for a few minutes. I will give her her space and work on my issues, and how to be better in an R. Hopefully, she will see the changes and begin to soften with time. I really don't see a way back until at least the end of March or April. That is alot of patience. I wish my W were like you M. I wish she were that dedicated to working on the R, then right now we would be alot closer because I also would be working on the R. That is what really pisses me off about your H sometimes. He has what most of the rest of us want. I have only been out 2 weeks, and this is your 5th time and it has been for 8 months, so I will be patient.