I have not given him DR, yet. I am still reading the only copy I could find (which was DB). I hope to have it finished by Saturday and give it to him then.
Unfortunately, I am not finding much solace in knowing we are predictable. That's why I am asking for change. The bad thing is that I was trying to direct him w/o specifically telling him about this site. Last night, I asked if he had searched for marriage saving websites or anything on divorce. He said no. He said he only read the R articles that scrolled across his home page. Where's the effort?
LOL!! Don't feel guilty. I like helping others; even if it is at my own misery!
It's cold and rainy here tonight. Which is why I am being lazy. Darts was cancelled b/c the other team dropped out. So I am ordering pizza, watching the tube and reading DB. No work out tonight. Bad girl!
I still don't know what to say. It sounds like he still does not get it. It sounds like he is blaming you for you leaving. This is going to be a tough nut to crack. Sounds like Dbing to the max. Only thing I can think of is try turning the tables a little. Treat him like he treated you. Or maybe just give a few situations, and tell him a friend treated her H like he treats you (leaving that part out). It is all hypothetical. Go on for a few examples. Hell, use one of us here, and how we treated our W. Hopefully he will see that what we have done in the past has really hurt our W, and that is why our M is on the rocks so badly. If that gets through to him, point out that is the kind of hurt that you have experienced, and it hurts even more that he either refuses to acknowledge it, or if he does not see it, he refuses to find out what he has done to hurt you. Get him a copy of The Anger Trap, and tell him not to call until he has finished the book (just a thought). If all that does not work, then I would say to go dark for a little while.
Thanks for everything. I agree with you - he still doesn't "get it" as much as he tells me he does. Maybe I will copy your sitch and e-mail to him. See what kind of response I get. What do you think?
M - BTW - On your "should I go dark" question. I was thinking about that last night. I don't know that I would go dark, but I think you should hold off on the dates w/H. If he is not getting the clue, your agreeing to spend time with him is probably reinforcing the wrong behavior. It gives him hope that things are tracking the right way when it does not sound like they are in your mind. I suggest holding off until he starts working at it.
Thanks. Our "date" is supposed to be to celebrate my b-day...which is Saturday. Are you suggesting that I not go? He asked me out for Valentine's and I am using work as an excuse not to go. I think I would rather go out and have dinner w/ friends, but I do not yet have any such plans. It would be less stressful that way.
Gene,
I am taking your advice. I copied 2 people's sitch (people that I have been talking to) and I put them in a word doc. I have deleted any links (so that he will not be able to follow that to DB site - I still am not sure I want to have him reading all of my threads) and I am going through them to take out all the abbreviations (so he will inderstand them all).
I have also deleted the 'M' I sign the bottom of my comments w/. I have tried to clean it up (so to speak) so that it will not necessarily sound like me talking.
ALL, Our couples counselor just e-mailed both of us about going to a weekend retreat - Here is what the e-mail said:
Quote: Attached it a brochure telling about a couples retreat that we have set up. The speakers will be Jack and Carole Mayhall. They have traveled all over the world speaking to different groups on couples relationships and on what the Bible says and how it works out in a practical way. We would like for you both to join us and a few other couples for a week-end. It will be worth your time. Please consider it.
Any thoughts about this? We have not talked to them since December. Thanks, M
Do you know anything about the program the retreat uses? W and I attended an ImagoTherapy Weekend in Mar. 2003 and it was helpful to us, at least until things got bad last year. I have heard good things about Retrouvaille, but I know that my W will not consider doing anything to work on OR now.
It seems to me that if you have any reason to believe the retreat would be good for you, H, and your M, then it's a better way to spend your time than a date would be. As DinWa said, you give the impression of rewarding the wrong behavior with the date. I think you would send the message, "Listen, buster, there's a lot of work remaining" by suggesting the retreat vs a date.
Good luck,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
This is my first post to you. However, I have been following threads from DinWa and Koshka.
I read the dialouge you had with your H. You are are saying exactly the same things my W has said to me for the last 8 months. You have almost quoted my W verbatim. Your H is saying many of the same things I have said in the past. I am trying to get some insight into my W's perspective on this because it is very confusing to me.
You and my W share a common phrase "You just don't get it." Like your H, I think I do get it, but also like your H, I am probably wrong. Could you point to something specific your H could do or say that would indicate to you that he does, indeed, "get it"?
Like your H, I validate my W and her feeling that we did not have the emotional connection she feels she needs in a M. I also accept responsibility for my lack of emotional availability that drove my W and into the arms of OM. It seems to me that the one thing that my W wants me to agree with her about and which I just cannot, is that it is just "too late." She has often said that if I could have shown her I understood her before she lost hope things may have been different, but now she just can't see herself returning to the M, although she does not want a divorce and all of the consequences that will flow from it.
I am sure this is part of me not "getting it", but when your H says that he wants to do things for you, why do your interpret that to mean that it is still "all about him"? Isn't that about you? Or is it that he only wants to do these things to "get you back", which is all about him?
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I think you could provide some incredibly valuable insight to me and others who are in very similar situations to you and your H.
Along with others, I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to participate on this board.
Quote: I am sure this is part of me not "getting it", but when your H says that he wants to do things for you, why do your interpret that to mean that it is still "all about him"? Isn't that about you? Or is it that he only wants to do these things to "get you back", which is all about him?
I will try to explain myself better - He says that he wants to do things for me, which "sounds" great. However, when I ask him what specifically he is "doing" for me; he says "keeping the house clean or taking care of the dogs" (which means feeding the dogs and opening the back door occassionally so they can go out).
How is that for me? I don't live in the house anymore, so he is keeping the house clean for him, really, right? Or he is trying to use the fact that he can maintain a clean house as a way to woo me back? I am happy for him. I never knew he could do them b/c he never did any of those things before when I lived there (except let the dogs out if he got home first). A little sarcasm. But how does those things meet my (or anyone's) emotional needs?
To meet my emotional needs, I want things like, a non-sexual touch (like a hug, holding my hand, a soft kiss of the cheek, forhead, nose, etc.); a nice card or note to say I love you, you're beautiful, etc.; fresh flowers - just b/c; communicating w/ me (a conversation where we share our lives, thoughts and plans). OCCASSIONALLY, I am not asking for him to smother me w/ these.
However, since I am still hurt and/or angery w/ H - I don't really want him doing any of the above (except MAYBE the communication bit).
H hates it when I use this example, but bear w/ me. If my H had been a wife beater and had abused me over and over through the years; sometimes where I went to the hospital. After each beating he was remorseful and apologized, promising it would NEVER happen ever again. And then it did. Would you expect me to want to go back to him? How am I supposed to believe that he is really sorry this time verses all the other times I have heard the same words?
I wasn't physically abused. Instead, I was mentally and emotionally abused. I was expected to continue to meet his needs, while mine were neglected. What reason do I have to want to be in the M? Therefore, I am looking to see a lot of self-improvement on his part. I want to look at him and see a different person, a kind, loving person. When I look at him and he is spouting the same things - I'm sorry, I want to take care of you, blah, blah, blah...but I am not seeing any actions where he is "IMPROVING" himself - well, it feels like just another empty promise.
Does that help? M
P.S. When I say it's too late - it's b/c I have left 5 times before w/ little to no permanent change from H or in the M. Emotionally, I can't keep doing this. It is killing the person that I am and I don't like who I have become.
FYI - The abused spouse lingers in this I don't want to be in the M, but I don't want a D, either mode b/c 1) we still have a shread of HOPE that the promise is real and 2) b/c we have also lost our self-esteem. We wonder how did this person treat me like this? What is wrong w/ me? Or we want to understand "why" you could be so cruel or insensitive.
Are you suggesting that I cancel the "date" (my birthday celebration) w/ H?
I know this sounds horrible, but the only reason I am going is b/c I agreed to go about a month ago. I keep my word (even if H doesn't).
I don't know enough about the retreat to answer your questions. I think the main reason I mentioned it is b/c right now, with our recent conversation, and the fact that I am not getting any "action-oriented" results from H; I was thinking - what's the point? I am moving closer to the "throw in the towel" point of view.
Thank you very much for your reply. it hit very close to home. However, I appreciate your honesty. It is obvious that you, like my W, have been damaged to the core. Although it is little consolation to you, your response provided me with some great insight into the pain my W has felt and currently feels.
My W frequently uses the analogy of an alcoholic or an abuser when we talk about our relationship. Her question is how many time do you have to let that person back in the M until it is okay to file for divorce. In our situation, my W had concerns about my emotional availability before we got married. I went to counseling and we both thought I worked through those issues. After 7 years of M and 2 kids, I apparently was still having problems. Unlike your situation, my W never left before. She internalized her pain and when she felt like she could not talk to me about it, she lost hope and gave up.
On my end, I have been going to counseling since the bomb was dropped. I have gone back to church and joined a men's group there to hold me accountable. I have read a lot about communication in a marriage and realize now how I was unable to be there emotionally for my wife. I was dismissive and felt she was too emotional. When she came to me with problems I either marginalized them by telling her they weren't that important and I loved her, "isn't that enough", or I attempted to fix things, "Well, why don't you just see it my way ..." or "this is what you need to do." A lot of times I knew she was troubled and asked her if everything was okay. She responded by saying, "Oh, these are my issues. I need to get through them myself." Instead of creating an atmosphere in which she could feel comfortable and secure enough with me to open up, I was relieved that we didn't have to have another one of "those conversations."
I know you think that if your H really understood you, it wouldn't be necessary for you to tell him what you want. My W tells me the same thing. She feels if I were the person she wanted to be in a R with, I would know what she felt was important in a R. In fact, she usually references the OM and tells me how he gives her exactly what she needs without her ever having to ask.
I'll ask you a question I can't ask my wife. What could it hurt by telling your husband what you want? Be specific and let him know that you want him to listen without judgment, that cleaning the house is important, but is not substitute for letting you know that he truly values your opinions and feelings. That he needs to defend and honor you. That it is not his spending that is an issue, but his failure to understand how his spending affects you and he goes ahead and does it anyway.
If you are direct with him and give him a chance to love you in the way you want to be loved, what do you have to lose. If he knows what you want and fails to follow through, you will know for sure that he is incapable of meeting your needs. If he starts to meet your needs and after time you can trust it and reinforce his behaviors, you may end up with the M you want.
I think he does love you. However, like my W tells me, that may not be enough. He needs to be sensitive enough to you to convey that love in a manner you can appreciate. Again, could it hurt to let him know exactly what it is you need. I can tell you that it has been 8 months and only now am I really starting to understand what my W needs. It may have saved us both some heartache if she had been able to let go of the expectation that I should know, without being told, what she wanted. I am not trying to lay blame here. It is a very complex issue and requires a process that you may not be able to short circuit. From the viewpoint of the stay behind spouse, a little inofmation might go along way toward opening the lines of communication that may ultimately lead to the intimacy you desire.
Once again, I am giving advice, which I am probably not qualified to do. I hope you take my comments in the spirit of all of us being in this mess together. I hope and pray for you and your husband. You are admired on this board for being so honest. I hope we don't overwhelm you and scare you away.
