It felt like progress, but I took it too far...this morning. I sent him the following email.
Quote:
I have been reading a few things on the web. I found the following insightful and exactly how I feel. I have included the parenthesis and the underlining as the site I was on uses a LOT of abbreviations. The underlining is so that you will understand why I am floundering and untrusting of going through this yet again. I hope it helps explains, better than I have been able to, where I am emotionally. . .
”I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade...I do admire each and every one of you who are working so hard to turn your marriages around... but I get tired of hearing the WAS's (WAS = Walk Away Spouse) get villianized as if they just overnight lost their minds and decided to hurt everyone in sight. Maybe a few of them did... but I'd bet the majority were hurting for so long, they finally just decided to cut off the appendage rather than keep dealing with the pain. So when you question why they can't immediately get it that you've changed for the better, why you're having to deal with their confusion for eight months or a year-- it's because they have at least that much time's worth of pain surrounding their heart... and yeah, they had their share in causing the pain, but just like you get frustrated when you feel that you're doing all you can do and it's not enough... that's how they felt. Maybe they didn't have the tools, so they didn't communicate in the right way... but somehow, they were trying and felt just as pushed away as you all are feeling now while you're trying to reach them again.
So I have one piece of advice... please, please, please make sure the changes you are making are for real changes. Don't just do it to please the WAS, because that type of change tends to be temporary... and nothing will hurt your case with the WAS more than for them to discover that they opened up to you again in any way only to have you repeat the previous hurtful behavior (for me it has been 5 times now). Make the changes because you truly believe that you will be a better person for it... and then be patient and understand that your S (S= spouse) is confused and angry and hurting... and they aren't really trying to make your life a living H (H= usually means husband, but in this case it means HELL), they're just trying to figure out a way to stop the pain they are feeling... and right now, they truly believe (right or wrong) that YOU are the cause of that pain. (I no longer believe YOU are the cause of my pain, but more of how we interact w/ one another and how we treat each other is painful to me).
Believe me, I'm really not trying to come down on any of you or trying to make you feel guilty or anything. Really, I'm just venting-- but I also hope that my venting might help ya'll understand why your S's (Spouse’s) actions might seem a little bonkers to you. “
I bought a book that should help us have a better relationship. I am also buying myself a book on Healing and/or getting Miracles.
I do find it ironic that you surf the net looking at MAC for me and here I am surfing the web trying to find ways to improve us. What does that tell me about the effort you are putting forth? I know that leaving me alone is very hard and takes a lot of effort. I appreciate your efforts to continue to give me the space I need. I feel this time is allowing me to heal and focus on what it is I want from a relationship. Thank you.
M
P.S. I think you are right, (friend) was there that night. I had forgotten, but in thinking about it this morning I remembered I rode w/ her there. FYI - She didn’t say anything to me about your anger. That is something I have mentioned to you before, like at darts when you would slam the table, or playing cards, etc. I hope that maybe if we both read the following recommended anger book - The Anger Trap by Les Carter - we will stop the “talking louder” thing that we get into. Trust me, I plan to read it, too. I could use a little more self-control myself.
What do you think? Maybe I should have left out the comment about him surfing for my make-up and not marital sites?
Quote: Ok, you yes I see what it says, but the truth of the matter is that in the process of you trying to heal and perhaps fix us, you hurt me and yes it is very frustrating for me because I know the changes are for real, but I feel like you do not care or will not accept that. I also think that there is a lot of truth in the point where they say you were probably trying before but that you did not have the right tools to communicate the problem to me, and so now to me as it also says that I am doing everything your like I dont know, I really do not know if you realize how hard it is on me, I feel like everyday is great for you, you have your own little world, that you get to play in that you keep me out of, and see for me the world is the same but I have changed and your not really in my world, its very hard for me because I love you so much and I want to take care of you totally, all of your needs, and I know that I can and that I want to, but again feel as if you will not let me. Sorry this is a bit long.
to which I replied....
Quote: What you are forgetting is that you have said this to me before...and it didn't happen. You didn't take care of me. As far as me having my little world, yes, I suppose that is true. I have always made friends easily and I continue to work on me, but it's not the fabulous world you make it out to be. You also have your little world. You do things w/ friends and family. You have been spending more time w/ your mom and you talk about dancing w/ Lana (sp?) so you too have a separate world doing things w/ others to make this time more bearable. You are also forgetting that it is b/c of your selfishness and the lack of commitment from you previously that I left, amoung other things. So technically you are the enemy - meaning - the one that hurt me. I am sorry that in the process of healing my heart and trying to gain back who I am, hurts you.
.
I hate this...I feel like he keeps telling me that I am hurting him to elicit the sympathy I normally give him. However, through my reading, conversations, etc. I have learned that it's really more manipulation and I am not going to allow him to continue to manipulate me.
Any advice or suggestions on how to get out of this? M
Just to catch you up to speed. here is the rest of it....
H replied:
Quote: I do understand that I have said things before that did not occur, but that truely is not the case this time, but yes I know you cant see that, I wish that you could, as to my own world, not really the same from my point of view, I see Lana once a week, and we dance maybe once a month, you go home to your own cozy world, so to me they are nowhere close to the same but that is my opinion. I guess I am the enemy for you and you can choose to fix that or not, and I no longer lack commitment, and I guess to some extent the fact that you say you have to gain back you, its always you, where I see gain us back. If you want me to be perfect, I cant and I'm not, but then neither is anyone else, except God. I do believe you are trying but I still feel like you refuse to even give an inch, you make me feel like you enjoy being a prick as you always say, but I guess I will just have to deal with that, and yes you can say that by me saying that that I do not know you. I am not saying that you enjoy it, but that you make me feel as if you do, just my feelings. I know I always see it as easy and you generally do not. And you know I would think that even the fact that I was looking for MAC stuff for you online should say something to you, at least I do think about you, and I want us to be in a better place. yes I know we have bills and I am working very hard to fix that, but I did not say I was buying it today, but that it was something I thought you would like, like when you finish product A you could try that, but I feel like that does not even matter to you. I see so many people that do not even think of their spouse whether it be for make-up, dinner or whatever. I do think about you and want to make things better, as I said last night I want to know you, and really understand what in your mind makes you happy, so that I can give you those things, but all that comes down to you allowing me to do so.
Sometimes you make me feel like I want to fight with you, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth, I do not want to fight with you.
I responded:
Quote: I didn't mean for my e-mail to cause all of this....I only wanted you to understand why I can't just come back overnight.
Remeber that H is very good at "saying" what I want to hear, like "I want to know you, and really understand what in your mind makes you happy, so that I can give you those things", but he has yet to deliver on any such promise.
H said:
Quote: I understand, and I truely appreciate all your help I want to understand and help, and I want there to be an us.
Quote: I didn't mean for my e-mail to cause all of this....I only wanted you to understand why I can't just come back overnight.
I did not say that I couldn't see any changes, what I have said is the changes that you have made are the same ones that you have made before - taking care of the dogs, the house, etc. I need to know they are permanent (but I won't know this until if/when we get back together), which is why I stopped bring them up.
We both have separate worlds b/c we are separated. I don't know what makes mine "cozy" and yours is not.
You are not the enemy. I was using that word for lack of a better word, I apologize - it was a bad choice. I was only trying to get the point across that you are the one who hurt me. I think that gives me the right to keep you at a safe distance. I don't want to get hurt again. Therefore, until I feel my heart is safe - you will remain at a distance. It's the way it has to be. I know, I won't get hurt again - I can hear you loudly saying this. Sorry, if I am unable to just believe the words....and I want actions.
Sure, I could come back, tonight even, and we could live together, but I will not be happy and nothing you can do would make me happy if my heart has not healed.
Yes, right now it is about me. Is there a problem with me wanting to heal and let go of the past in order to have a brighter future?
I have NEVER asked you to be perfect; nor have I expected it. I am a pretty forgiving person, but when one person repeatedly takes me for granted, abuses my good-heart and kindness, and is controlling and emotionally abusive, well, I tend to not want to be around that person. Sorry. It's called self preservation. There is only so much mental abuse a single person can take before they cave. I have caved and no longer want any part of it.
I don't give an inch? Then why I am bothering to go on a "date" w/ you Saturday night?
I am sorry that my standing my ground makes you think I am being a prick and enjoying it. I am not....you have no idea how much I hurt, too.
Yes, you do see us getting back together as easy. It's not easy - there are a lot of issues that need to get resolved. You seem to be under the impression that we cannot resolve anything w/o being in the same house. I am scared to death to live with you and have to go through this YET AGAIN.
You looking at MAC on the Internet does say something…it says you like to shop. Period. Remember in counseling, when my therapist said that you can shop for you or me – you get the same satisfaction. I am very proud of you for not actually purchasing anything. That says more to me than you shopping for me. You are right, most men would not be shopping for their wives make-up, or anything for that matter, but most guys are not metrosexuals, either. You enjoy shopping; most men don’t.
I have to make myself happy before you can make me happier. Please allow me that b/c right now I am not happy.
However, I knew this would only make us really get into it. So why am I the one biting my tongue?
You have had a busy day. I have been very busy here at work. I will post my thoughts tonight after the gym. I am sorry I could not get here sooner. I have to think, because I don't even know what to say.
I know what you mean; even I am at a loss for words. . There is more....
H asks me if I want to go out for Valentines Day. I said you should see what I wanted to say to you instead of just " I didn't mean for my e-mail to cause all of this....I only wanted you to understand why I can't just come back overnight." - you may not feel that way. But I bit my tongue to avoid more fighting.
H responds - I just want us to be back together, and I want us to be happy with one another. We are going to disagree some. You push, I push. I know that we can be happy together, you havn't decided wether to agree or not, so we appear at odds, I want our marriage to work, I just wish you did also the way I do. But I do appreciate you biting your tounge to avoid further confict.
I replied - you want...., you want...., you want..... - that's pretty much all i hear.
H - When you say thats all you hear, I hear from you that it is wrong for me to want us to work. I guess to it seems that when we talk about an us it always seems like you are saying that is bad, and I just dont see that.
Me - I have never said it was wrong or bad for you to want us to be together. Now have I? That is your perception.
H - yes I was not saying that you said it was wrong or bad but that when you make that statement what it says to me is that you think its wrong for me to want that. Look I know you want to be happy, and all I am saying is that you can be happy with us as a couple, but yes I know you weren't as you told me yesterday, again, as you say its all I hear, so you know you could also change your tune, and maybe believe that you can be happy with me.
Me - You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am only pointing out that everything you have said all day is all about YOU. I hurt YOUR feelings, YOUR opinion, YOU want....etc. No matter how much I try to make it about me - it never really is. You talk of me being happy w/ u, but if nothing really changes except that we do household chores together - well, then it's still the same for me. No emotional connection.
H - You know it really is all about you, I want to understand you, know you better, do more for you, but that kind of ties in to us being together to me. I want all of those connections with you, I do want to truely connect with you, more than anything really. I just wish you would believe. I know to you I always ask too much, but please just help me fix our marriage, and us so that we do not ever get here again.
Me - What else has changed? I mean really changed? You have learned to control your spending. I am proud of you, but that doesn't meet my emotional needs. So what else has changed? I WANT SPECIFICS.
H - Everyday I think about you, I want to call you and say hey, I'm on my way home where are you at? Can I do anything to help you or can I start dinner? Or should I lay out some shorts and a tee shirt so we can go walk or go to the gym, I think about what can I do to make your day easier is that fix you a lunch for tomorrow, or maybe just rub your feet when you get home, or at luch one day I just want to get a card for you just to let you know that I was thinking about you, I want to just hug you so that you can not only see but feel that I care about you and your well being. I want to be there when you have some need arise, whatever that is.
Honey, I know you have doubts, I wish you didnt, please believe in me, and know that I will not let you down, I do not want to fight or argue, just want us to have a great loving relationship where we depend and take care of one another. I love you so much and I wish this was not happening to us. I am sorry if I have upset you today, as I only wish to bring you joy.
Me - I am just saddened by the whole situation. Let's not talk about it Saturday night. Ok?
H - We won't I just want us to have fun on your special day. Please just trust me, I know its a lot to ask but give us a whirl, you will not be sorry, I dont want you to be saddened by us I want you to be happy about us. I wish you could just tell me what to do to fix everything, because I would in a heartbeat.
Me - I wish you could have woken up and been this person sooner...before I gave up and fell out of love.
H - I know me too, but please I am here now, don't give up on me.
Me - too late.
You want me to know that you will not let me down - how do you want me to know this? If I go by history I should never believe or trust you again. Even recent history. So, please stop pushing...and let me slowly accept the changes you talk about.
H - ok
Me - Oh, btw, when I asked for specifics, I wasn't asking what you will be doing if I returned. You said those weren't the only changes. I was asking what other changes (presently) have you made that I am unaware of?
I don't know what to tell you about the things that I want b/c I don't want them from you. At least not at this point. I don't know if I can recover. I have forgiven you, yes, but I have not forgotten nor have I healed.
H - Well I am sorry you dont want them from me, I wish you did, I wish you could just love me, the way you talk you moved out and it stopped, and now its this big ordeal to get it back, yes I hurt you, but can you not even see a future with us, for you you always say too late, I hate that all it does is cause me more hurt and pain, but you talk about me not caring, It is not too late or ok maybe in your mind but you know what you set that up or you let somebody else tell you it was too late, I have never seen it that way, You need time but you dont know, its been 8 months, but I know I just want miracles, no I just want to have a happy marriage with my wife, you. You just make this so hard on me I want a buch of stuff just not from you cause your a [censored] head, well thank you. I still love you and want to be with you and I can only hope that you can stop this hurt and start working on us. I have to go so I can let the dogs out, goodnight, and I love you.
That was it. The end. he signed off. Is it just me looking at this negatively? But all I see is a lot of words - he wants to do this and that, but what is he doing to get there? He tells me he gets it; that he understands what I need, but he doesn't really get it. Does he?
M - What you're seeing here is a H in full pursuit mode, with predictable results. He is alienating you even more with the pressure and his continued desire to continue talking about the R.
We have all been there, probably every guy on this BB spent the first weeks, months pursuing his W full speed. Then they found DR and this BB and figured out that they were doing the wrong things.
Your H hasn't gotten this message yet and maybe doesn't have the tools he needs to so he can figure it out. The amazing thing is how predictable human nature is, on both sides.Did you give him DR? Might be useful for him.
I guess you can take some solace in the fact that this is pretty common dynamic. He is just human after all.
I do admire you for your committment to working on this. I keep learning from reading your posts - feel almost guilty like I am looking into my W's head!
I know what I posted was a lot. So thank you and whomeer else reads and offers advice/suggestions to help me out. I thought it would be good to see how we communicate. H is very good at being vague. He was a Political Science major when I met him afterall. He is great at saying what I need to hear, but not so good at "doing" anything.
Here are the 6 statements of Forgiveness I promised - 1) I forgive ________(person's name) for __________ (name the offense).
2) I admit that _________ (name the offense) was wrong.
3) I do not expect __________ (person's name) to make up for what he or she has done.
4) I will not use ___________ (name the offense) to define who __________ (person's name) is.
5) I will not manipulate ________ (person's name) with this offense.
6) I will not allow __________ (name the offense) to stop my personal growth.
The book says -"We get hurt by individual acts done by others... We must identify these acts and characteristics specifically if we are to get out from under their influence. ...we will define an adversary as the person who ruined my life. As you do this, you give that person (power). When it comes to forgiving yourself (step 4) is vital."
What I did was write up a list of things I needed to forgive. Then I started with the easier ones. It took me several monthss to complete for each item. Basically I wrote what the specific action was and then each of the 6 statements. After I was all done, I burned the list and all my writing freeing myself and others of those hurtful acts. It felt great...the burning ink & paper smelled bad, but it was good to finally let it go!
I've been reading your thread for a while. I congratulate you for having the strength of your commitment to work on your M instead of tossing it and H aside.
Does he understand? Maybe. From what I've read, though, it seems like understanding and knowing the right words are not his problems. His problem seems to be complacency. In his mind when things seem to be better, the need to work at making them good is gone. So, maybe he does understand what you need to get back together, but he doesn't understand the needs you have to meet for each other if you will be able to stay together.
DinWa's perfectly correct about how we pursue a WAW, too. Of course, sometimes even ending the pursuit is not enough. For guys who were distant (in my W's words I was "not engaged"), dropping pursuit while showing 180s is a very fine line to walk.
Did you ever decide if you would give H DB or DR to read or not? I know when I read the story in DR about the guy who used Hallmark and FTD to drive his uncertain wife away, I quit the heavy pursuit immediately.
Like the other guys said, thanks for showing us things from the WAW POV. I hope that you will be able to be the WBW. (I hope my W will walk back some day, too!)
Thanks,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
He is great at saying what I need to hear, but not so good at "doing" anything.