I do see where you can be very frustrated that the changes are small, and the same as before, and they usually go away after some time back in the M. He is going to have to make the changes bigger and permanent. He will slip sometimes, but as long as he gets back up on the horse, progress is being made. But it does not sound like he is making the big changes yet. He may not seem to know the extent that he needs to. After your read DR, give him the copy and see what he does from there. If he does not start making the real changes, then there may not be much hope, unless you can just deal with what has gone on for years, and that is not fair to you.
Thanks for the reply on the conversation with my W from yesterday. I almost got the impression that it just came out before she thought about it. If she was testing me, I hope I passed.
Thanks. You are saying exactly what I am thinking....changes have to be bigger and permanent for me to stay in the M. If not, I can't stay. Life is too short for me to be this unhappy and I am not willing to take anti-depressants or other meds to make it where I don't care.
Trust me, I have already tried that option. The year before I moved out, I was going to C alone. She suggested a mild anti-depressant to take the edge off; mainly b/c I cried everyday and felt this overwhelming sadness. I truly believe the sadness was me grieving for the loss of the R.
I did take the anti-depressants and I didn't cry anymore, but I didn't care anymore either. I was just content. I think H liked me this way - I wasn't nagging or crying or complaining or anything . After about a month, I took myself off them. I said I didn't want to go through life "content" and not happy.
Thanks very much for your input. It validates how I am feeling.
Today is a good day for me. I feel good about myself and what I am doing. I worked out last night, I read some of DB and I relaxed a little before bed.
I re-read through your goals and started thinking about additional goals I want to set for myself. I already have some goals for myself, like get in shape (ie workout), financial, etc. But I really need to sit down and come up with some relationship goals. I need to clearly define the changes I am looking for and what actions I want to see from H. Not to mention changes in attitude and behaviors I want to make myself.
Here's a question - should I share these goals w/ H? Should I tell him the changes I want to see from him? Or let him read the DR book and see what changes he makes himself? The reason that I am asking is b/c I believe he will make the changes I ask for in order to win me back, but I am afraid they will not be permanent changes and 2 years from now I will be going through this all over again. Your thoughts?
I have to say that I am a beginner in all of this, and so I am hoping some others will chime in here as well. I don't think you should share your goals with your H, at least not in the near term. Alot of what the book is saying, and you may not like this, but you have to make changes to see changes, at least from my understanding, It takes one to tango. Your goals are things that you wish for you to do that will affect changes in him. 1 of goals was to be nice and humorous with my W, leading to the goal of getting her to want to call me 3 times per week. She has already called me 7 times in the last 2 days, and I just got 2 emails from her, 1 asking me to call her later. It is a start, but OMG this is hard. Hardest job I have ever attempted. Read the book(s) and do your part, then let him read the books and watch to see what happens. I pray it goes your way, and he wakes up.
I agree with you on no meds. I talked with my counselor about me not wanting any meds, and he agreed. I really was in better spirits last night than the first 2 meetings. I have a Dr appt in a couple of weeks where I am going to ask for tests about a chemical imbalance in my system, and if so, how to treat through diet and exercise. My sister had some of the same symptoms I did and it turned out to by thyroid problems.
I am glad I can help you at least a little. You have been immearureably good for my psyche. You have helped me in ways I don't even know, and I thank you. It is good to bounce ideas off of a WAW who is in a similar sitch as my WAW. I wish there was a way I could pay you back or smack your H upside the head so that he could be smarter and give your M a chance.
I am glad you are feeling better today. The sun is going to rise, so should we. I am starting the gym on Fri. I think I am going to try sky diving in 2 weeks. I am going to see if the enemy's soon to be ex wants to do a guys trip to Mexico or something soon. That will get back to my W. Do you think that will make a difference to her at all? I have a ski trip for next month planned.
Michele - I was reading your thread y'day and thinking - boy, this H seems like such an immature jerk who needs a mom more than a W. She's worked with him and he is unwilling to change - why doesn't she give up.
Then I related to my own sitch as the LBS. I know my W thinks she has tried to get me to change. She tells me she's been working on this for years and is just "worn out". Funny thing is, I can't remember more than a couple of occasions where she did anything specific to get through to me, and I remember several times where I tried to engage her and she brushed me off. My point is, that in most of our situations both parties feel like the communications on how the WAS felt just were not effective. I suspect there must be some of that dynamic in your sitch, as somehow you are not getting through to your H. Either that, or he is just a big dunce! .
Anyway, it pains me a bit to see someone like you here wanting to work on your M and having your H be oblivious to the need to change. I figure there must be more there.
Yes, that is true...I may not have communicated in a way that he could hear (I mean really hear) what I was saying. I believe that may be the case in the beginning the first few times I left, but I am positive that I was very clear this last time.
I wrote a list of the things I was unhappy about. Some were things I personally wanted to work on, the rest were R things. The list itself may have been vague, but when it came to the actions I wanted him to take - they were specific and clear.
For example, in December 2003, I told him that he had to go to a C for his money issues. I told him that this person had to have experience in money addictions and obsessive/compulsive behavior. I said he had to find a C and attend 1 session before the end of January. H is a bit of a procrastinator - so deadlines were necessary. I asked for proof of this visit in either a receipt or the duplicate check copy. Btw, he never gave me proof, but I knew he was going b/c I saw the checks clearing our account.
I documented the things I asked for in writing so he could have it to refer to, when/if in doubt. I even told him that he could get a list of C's that his insurance would accept by calling the number on his insurance card and start from there.
I think this might tell you more about my H. On our 8th anniversary we were getting ready to start our day, when he doubled over in pain. He wouldn't move. I asked if he was alright and he said no. After much debate and encouragement, I finally got him to go to the hospital. Turns out he had kidney stones. They said there were 3, but only 1 was moving, which was causing the pain. They gave him something for the pain and refered him to a urologist. I called made the appointment and took him to see the urologist. He was given a container to urinate in so they could run some tests to determine the cause of the kidney stones. 1 1/2 years later that container is still in our house! I can do a lot of things for him, but I can't urinate for him.
I kept on him about it every time I would see the container. He finally put it in a cabinet, so I wouldn't see it regularly and I would stop asking about it.
I have a suggestion. Might as well forget about the urine container. He should just throw it out.
I think DinWa is right about him seeming to need a mother. Do a 180 and don't pressure him to do the things it's in his own best interest to do. Don't remind him of anything. He might just be behaving stubbornly because you ask/tell/remind him to do something. Try a 180 and don't bother to tell/ask/or inquire about things that he needs to do. That or find another hole with cheese in it (from the book...don't know if you have it).
Wes
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
Michelle - some of that hits home. At some point when I was in full pursuit mode (post-bomb) my W said to me "I feel like I have 3 children to take care of (e.g. my 2 D's + Me). I was pretty dependent on her for things. She made my hair appointments, Dr. appointments, planned vacations, any dates we would have. In my defense I worked really really hard - but probably to the extent I ignored my family.
So it was something about me, but also something about her enabling my actions (or is it inactions). I know that post bomb I have had to get my act together and have really gotten back in touch with myself. However - that took a whole lot of new self-awareness and personal insight. Through counseling, I have figured some stuff out (like the fact that I never slept and didn't care about anything probably were symptoms of depression) Even at that I am not sure it is enough to convince my W to come back to me.
Seems to me that your H still has not gotten it. I mean he hears you but doesn't have the self-awareness he nees to change. For most of us the 2x4 of the "bomb" was enough to get us motivated - that's why we bought DR and found this site. I don't know exactly what to tell you to get through to him. Maybe you can give him DR and he will read and get it, maybe counseling will work. Maybe you have to just keep pushing him away until he figures it out. Work on yourself and see if he comes around. That is kind of what most of us are doing
I haven't been asking/telling/reminding him of anything for the past 10 - 12 months. Mainly b/c it doesn't do any good and only frustrates me. Still no changes in his behavior.
I have the DB book, but haven't gotten that far, but I have watched the Marriage Breakthrough tapes and Michele talks about it in there so I get the reference - just not sure how I should apply it here. I have tried the you need to _______ (whatever the task that needs to be done). I have tried the 180 of not saying or doing anything. I have stayed and I was miserable b/c my emotional needs were not being met. I have left and found peace, a lot less stress, and some happiness, but also loneliness and confusion. I miss the security of having him there.
I don't know any other paths to try. Find another hole w/ cheese? I read that now and think that might mean another path in life - time to move on??? I am ready to end the emotional roller coaster; one way or another. I don't care. I am tired of trying with no results. Severing the R may be the only way to end my frustration and hurting.
I think that Phoenixduex was referring to cheeseless tunnels. It can apply to you finding a new path, with or without H. I think he meant that your H (the rat, not really calling him a rat, but that is what is up with this analogy) is always searching down a certain tunnel for the prize (cheese). He will keep going down that tunnel. Somehow you need to move the cheese and then teach him to use the other tunnel. Otherwise, he will go down that bad tunnel forever even if there is never cheese there again.
Severing the R may be the only answer you have left, but you came here asking advice. That says you are not ready for that choice yet. Finish DB. I have not read that one, but really like DR. Follow the steps patiently. Give the book to your H and see if he begins to get it. If he doesn't, THEN maybe it is time to move on. But for now, you have only been posting for a few days, get your goals and plan of action together, and then execute it patiently. I think it is too early to give up. Try the program first, and then see.
Patience is not a good word for me today. I am posting today's interactions in just a minute. Please tell me your thoughts.
I don't mean to steal your post but I was wondering if Michelle21 would please read mine and tell me what her opinion is? My thread is in sepearted forum under 2nd time husband has left...Ashmo17. Thank you!!!! Amy
. After about a month, I took myself off them. I said I didn't want to go through life "content" and not happy. 
. 