2020-2023: H would say he was sad but didn't know why. Some reasons I suspect contributed to his sadness: H's mom passed unexpectedly April 2018; S23 moved out to college dorms 9/2019; D21 moved out to college dorms 9/2021
Feb 2023: H came home from work in deep anxiety attack and tears. H doesn't cry (Ever!) so I immediately consoled him to learn that he was confused and afraid to tell me that he had been eating daily brownies with pot for the last two years. Two days later, I asked him to move out because I can't live with an addict. While I regret this now, at the time, it felt right. H didn't move out. We talked and connected deeply over the next 6 months, including several vacations/getaways. H 'proved' he wasn't addicted by not having any edibles for 2 months but celebrated with one on 4/20/23. From then on, he kept craving and needing the fix (I assume to medicate the sadness that he still carried)
July 2023: H suggested he see a therapist - never did. H's friend passes of heart attack
Aug 2023: H going out with friends until late hours and drinking. H's childhood friend passes of cancer
Sept 2023: Bomb drop requesting space because it's not going to work - H shouts out reasons: H will never take something out for dinner; H will never remember to take out the dog; H will never come up with his own todo list; H will never plan a vacation; I shouldn't tell him what music to listen to; H doesn't like how I manage money tightly. We didn't talk for 3 days until he called me from work to tell me that he's sick of being controlled and is filing for divorce due to irreconcilable differences. H goes out every night and reports back that he drives around for hours on end listening to music. H cringes at me saying "I love you". H can't be hugged or kissed. Started sleeping in son's bedroom. Asked me to not refer to him with pet names. H be called by his name only.
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted. H can't look at me; can't be touched; doesn't want to talk; H behaves as a teenager, coming home from bars and beginning to vape. H never drank other than socially; didn't vape or smoke since he was 20. H contacts mediator and we hold an intro session where H is very engaged in how fast can D happen. H still drives around for hours, can't be hugged or kissed. Still sleeping in son's bedroom. H is visibly depressed and cries 8 to 10 times a day in front of me. Pretends to be happy with others. H gets a tattoo because that's his therapy - when I asked him what it meant to him, he couldn't provide any clarity. I think he realized that as he tried to put words together.
Nov 2023: I learn I have cancer and he softens. Wants to take me to all doctor appts, oncologists, etc. Not sure why the interest in my well being. H agrees that it's not wise to come home at 3 or 4 in the morning and agrees that he'll sleep on friends couch if coming home before 11 isn't going to happen. He slept out a couple nights at most. H still drives around for hours, but can now be hugged with prior permission. Still no "I love you's". Still sleeping in son's bedroom. But, for 6 weeks, at my request, he'd come into our bed to hold me as I was having panic attacks. H embrace was calming. Sometimes he was very uncomfortable but did it anyway. Until one night we had an intimate moment that was repeated often for 6 weeks...until he moved out. Thanksgiving was very hard - it also happens to be the anniversary of his grandpa passing when he was just 8. H struggled (as did I).
Dec 2023: H moved out and goes pretty silent for most of Dec. H comes around to wrap kids gifts, grab wrapping paper and a couple items he's forgotten to pack. H came over xmas morning and it was very hard. H held me, kissed me and committed to talking really soon. I thought this was it - he's come to his senses. WRONG! No texts; No calls; no Happy New Year.
Jan 2024: H wants to talk every day. Called me a couple days and then that ended. Only time we'd talk is to align on time for the next day's doc appt that were 2 hours away. I looked forward to my cancer appts so that we could spend the day together - it took an hour to warm up to each other but the rest of the day was comfortable like we didn't miss a day in each other's lives. Sometimes holding hands and embracing (mostly for support). H is visibly depressed and confused. Although I rarely call him, if I do, it's during work and he picks up and carries on for about an hour - mostly about work. H is excited to talk (not sure if its excited to talk with me or to just simply talk to someone). H gets 2 tattoos and reminds me that it's his therapy. H sends occasional texts to kids that don't ask questions and kids aren't sure how to respond. Text will say something like, Today is going to be a better day.
Feb 2024: I had surgery and he came by daily to care for me for about an hour. H and I agree to try dinners twice a week. H suggested Wed which I reminded him was Valentine's Day. H said, how about Thursday then bc he's not comfortable with 2/14. We had a few dinners but it was too difficult with late nights at work. That stopped. Cancer appts continued and provided 1 or 2 days a week of connection. Things were great when we were together....just like old-times. One day, as we enjoyed dinner after an appt, we stared into each others eyes with warm tender love while holding hands. I told him "I love you" and tears started rolling down his face. WHY? Later that week, on 2/14/23, I learn about MLC reactions (not the red car definition) and unresolved grief impacts on the psyche. It was eye-opening. H is still depressed and is quite forgetful but now I'm beginning to understand why...I think. H is not as anxious nor stressed to come by. Leaves our home one afternoon "to do laundry" and instead goes to get a nose ring and pierce his ears.
Mar 2024: We talked for an hour about grief and impacts grief can have on someone. I told him that I'm not suggesting our relationship was perfect but that it's understandable what he's going through - it was presumptuous of me but it seemed to resonate and he didn't combat my thoughts.. I ran through the above timeline and traumatic events. H was very attentive and it felt like he was surprised that I get it. I told him that I will stick it out or give him the D he wants. I just want him to be happy and let him know that for this reason, I didn't shed a single tear through the conversation. H cried a couple times. H left and appeared to be in deep thought - not much talking from his end. He managed to 1. express fear that I'm just faking my positive changes and that if he returns, it'll be bad again because anyone can be fake for a couple of hours. 2. note that he has many bad days (depressed?) but they're not all attributable to me. 3. share that he doesn't want to rush into D but in Jan he had second thoughts which is why H suggested daily talks. He's trying to figure it out. 4. Remind me that he's still leaning towards D but isn't sure. (My response was to schedule time with mediator for this week. He suggested we wait until after Easter 3/31). There's been no mention of D since. H also happened to mention that he's not sure God can help him. H is sure he needs to do this alone. At end of talk, he said he'd need a couple days to recover and connect. Still hasn't brought any of this back up.
Apr 2024: Early in April, for the first time, I shared how this is impacting me. I let him know that he abandoned me, the kids and the house. It's hard to maintain everything with 2 dogs while going through medical issues. H initial response was to walk out but he caught himself and talked it out. I thanked him and acknowledged that he had made a positive change. H was happy to see that I noticed. H agrees that I haven't been pressuring him nor do I give him anxiety like I did. He's gotten more comfortable with holding hands and spending time together, but still doesn't suggest dates. We only get together for cancer. I asked if he'd reach out when he's ready to talk again and he said he would. I asked him if he was scared to talk to me - H said no. I think he's begun to awaken and feel ashamed...and scared to admit it/apologize. I could be wrong....and hopeful. I sent him a text after spending happy hours together - no response. Why is he a picture perfect husband through cancer appts days and then a stranger?
Our anniversary is in 2 days. We haven't made any reference to it yet. He's taking me to a cancer appt that day. What do I do?
All this time (Dec 2023 through now): H pulls into the garage like he still lives here. H wears his wedding band daily. H comes into the master bedroom and chooses to use the M bath. H provides hugs willingly if requested and approved. H ghosts me between appts - and if I reach out with a rare text, he doesn't respond. H has no interest in repairing nor maintaining our home. "I have my own to take care of". H will suggest we play cards (like we would) or binge watch Netflix for an afternoon (like we would). H refuses therapy. H knows I love him and will never give up trying...but will give him D if that's what he wants. I (and kids) have been in therapy since Sept 2023 I have learned about codependency and tried to go dark in Feb/Mar/Apr but it's hard with cancer and I'm not convinced that I really want to drop the rope. I still wonder (without evidence) if there is an affair that I'm not seeing. I continue to offer a listening ear and to help him at anytime. I have GAL to a larger degree than I thought I could but find myself addicted to learning about where he is in the MLC phases (and if it's MLC that he's going through). I think of his wellbeing before mine and some days, still cry OUT LOUD for hours like this happened yesterday. I turn to God often and try to honor "Thy will be done." but don't always know how to implement this in practice. I've read many many many articles, including HB and some DB. Still, I struggle to apply what I read. I can't always connect the reading to my situation and timeline.
Is this MLC? Do I need to drop the rope or continue with enjoying as much time as he'll offer? Is he turning a corner and beginning to 'accept'? or is he still in replay? Do I continue to embrace him coming into the house as he does (comfortably)? What boundaries do I establish? Am I doing this right? wrong? What can I change to move us along as I feel like he continues to escape/avoid when there isn't an appt? Do I acknowledge our 26th anniversary in 2 days? If so, how?
A couple other key points: - H jumped off a cliff while on vacation in Aug 2021; fractured his hip and nearly didn't make it. H recovery was for 6 long months of doing very little and not getting off the couch much. This traumatized him. - H and I have had a beautiful and happy marriage (or at least we thought). We built a home to our liking in an elite neighborhood, two beautiful children who are well mannered and behaved, two dogs and a desired life filled with laughter and joy. We were looked to for advice and admired for the love we demonstrated with strength and faith.
I am sorry you find yourself in this situation. However, you have landed in a really good place here, IMHO. This site is full of kind compassionate folks with much hard earned wisdom.
Do you have a copy of Divorce Remedy by MWD? If not, do get one, and read it cover to cover. There is lots of really good information in there.
Do keep Divorce Remedy, Divorce Busting techniques and strategies, this site, and such, close to your chest. This information is for you, not H. H would very likely see this info and efforts as manipulation and trying to just get him back. (Here’s a quote from a wise poster, which I agree with:)
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Below, is a copy of Cadet’s welcome thread for your reference. It has a bunch of links to a trove of useful information as well.
I look forward to conversing with you.
DnJ
- - - -
Welcome to the board.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Thank you! I've read through most of this. Starting to read the 1st chapter of the book now. Any direction on how to live day to day? Do I ask him why he avoids me and my texts? Do I stop pursuing him? H seems to be coming out of fog and showing interest. I'm I mis-reading the situation?
Very good summary. You sound quite balanced and grounded. Well done! Good for you. You’ve definitely been getting a life and detaching to get where you presently are.
A question:
Originally Posted by MamaG
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted.
Did H buy a house? Or a rental? Did he move his stuff out?
I’ll see if I can shed any light or share some insight on your particular questions.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is this MLC?
Short answer, in my opinion, yes.
You touch on MLC not being that Hollywood “get a new red sports car comedic version”.
Real MLC is a consuming decent in to the abyss. A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority. These traumas are significant and of such magnitude to be quite unable to be understood or accepted by such an emotionally/mentally immature child/teenager. As such, the trauma is buried, along with the young person’s self blame, guilt, shame, and so on; as they will, and do, blame themselves. This emotionally stunts them, not allowing the person to mature and grow as they should have.
As life progresses, various triggers occur, stirring up this long ago torment. And usually, the crisis person buries it again. Until mid life.
At mid life, pressures mount. Family and employment responsibilities, mortality, kids growing up and leaving the nest, aging parents, friends passing away, etc, all start to build. A triggering event occurs like has occurred before, yet at mid life the feelings cannot be ignored.
Long ago pains grow and pressure upon them. The person is entering their crisis, and is quite unaware of it. Literally, they have no conscious awareness of their past traumas, and they have no lexicon for how or why they feel as they do. And those feelings grow and grow.
MLC is emotionally driven. Some triggering event occurs, a wedding, birth of a child, a car accident, falling off a cliff, something that underscores their own mortality. They own aging and life’s sand slipping through the hour glass.
We all experience life transitions. And mid life transition is a difficult one to find peace and acceptance with. Likely the most difficulty of life’s transitions. Perfectly normal and healthy. Enter a person with past traumas and that transition goes right off the rails. That is a crisis.
That which is buried alive, will come back to haunt.
The MLCers is under constant and ceaseless torment. Unrecognized torment. They cannot figure it out. They cannot rationalize it. Yet, they feel and suffer it. Those long ago demons, which until midlife could be re-buried, no longer remain silent.
MLC is horrible! Absolutely horrible!
The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.
They run from their ceaseless pain and torment. Lots spend money, do drugs, drink, have affairs, partake in illegal and illicit behaviours and activities, and so on. They are trying to recapture their youth, which they feel they’ve been rob of. Any and all activities to both mute what they are feeling, and to try to feel something. A person in crisis is very lost.
Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. A teenager. Much more brash and rebellious. And with a fat wallet. The most rebellious teenage kids is say a 10/10 on the scale, a MLCer is a 15.
A crisis is not rational. The MLCer makes emotional decisions. They are driven to. Their emotions are cranked to eleven, and they have no bandwidth for their spouse, kids, friends, or anyone.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I need to drop the rope or continue with enjoying as much time as he'll offer?
Both!
Drop the rope. Or be dragged. That’s your choice.
Let go the rope and give him to God. Let the big guy work on H for a while.
You didn’t break H, therefore you cannot fix him.
As for time with H, invite him to some family events and such. Not all, some. And have no expectations.
H may, or may not attend. Doesn’t matter, keep your expectations dialled to zero. Unmet expectations lead to resentment. And resentment is like acid to love and relationship.
A MLCer has the attention span of a gnat. They will flake or forget appointment, or simply cannot handle some interaction and will run. Like New Years for example. (Hence, the replay stage, running behaviours.) Do not take it personally. This is H’s journey, and it will be at his speed. You go about your activities regardless of his attendance or not.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is he turning a corner and beginning to 'accept'? or is he still in replay?
Still in replay.
Tattoos, driving around for hours, moving out, and such. H is looking for time and space. He needs it. And he will take it.
Give him lots of time and space. Focus on you! Live and love your life! Let H figure himself out, and run to catch up to you. You don’t sit around waiting.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I continue to embrace him coming into the house as he does (comfortably)?
Read the lighthouse story in the welcome thread. (Link here as well: Lighthouse Story)
As long as interactions are not disrespectful, and you want to see H, having him come and go can be helpful.
This is H’s journey. Nothing you do can speed it up. At best your efforts will be neutral, at worst it will stall him completely. Focusing on you and the kids is your best course.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What boundaries do I establish?
Boundaries are premeditated actions you will take for disrespectful behaviour. Boundaries are for you. They are not some tool to entice behaviour modification, nor are boundaries punishment or a form retribution. Boundaries are for your emotion and mental health. Are actions you enact.
Let’s say H swears at you on the phone. Calls you disrecptpful and derogatory names. You state your boundary, and enforce it when he displays the unwanted behaviour.
“H, when you swear at me, and call me a b!tch, it really hurts me and is very disrespectful. When you do that, I am going to hang up the phone and not speak with you.”
And you enforce said boundary, rock solid!
Rebellious teenagers, especially 15 on a scale of 10, will test your boundaries. It’s normal when our teenagers do it, and so aggravating. One’s MLCer spouse is super aggravating. And they will smash against your boundary looking for weakness.
It’s part of growing up. They, teen or MLCer, needs to know, needs to believe, in your rock solid strength.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Am I doing this right? wrong? What can I change to move us along as I feel like he continues to escape/avoid when there isn't an appt?
Do more of what works, and less of what doesn’t.
Not being glib here. Every situation is different, and yet similar. However, you are living it. There is no magic answers or bullets, though we can tailor advice to your individual situation the more we know about it.
In my opinion, with what you’ve shared, H is in crisis. And a crisis is a long journey.
The basic path is to give time and space. Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to.
A person in crisis has so much feelings of torment, and they incorrectly blame their loving spouse. Realize, the MLCer cannot blame themselves. They truly cannot! Their psyche cannot handle it.
So, they look around their life and see their spouse. In their mixed up addled mind it must be the LBS’s fault. So, they dig and dredge up every corroborating deed and word and action of the past that you did to justify their position. They’ll also twist, fabricate, make up, outright lie, to further their narrative and justifications. They have to!
Like I said, MLC is horrible! The MLCer lies to themselves so very much.
So, with time and space. Other feelings will/can rise in the MLCer. Other feelings like guilt, shame, regret. Other feelings that are useful to your goal.
In time, and with some good fortune H may consider something like:
“Hmmm. MamaG has been bothering me for a long time. And I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps it’s not her fault. Perhaps it’s me.”
Most MLCers run from such. The MLCer will bait and goad their LBS into arguments and such to resupply their justifications and narrative. Do not take the bait. Let go the rope.
With time, and fate, and karma, lots of intervention that have absolutely nothing to do with you, H might see it differently. And might look inward.
It’s possible. And I hope he does. And it’s well out of your hands.
Focus on you and your kids. Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What can I change to move us along
You cannot move “us” along.
You only control three things in life. Your thoughts, your actions, and your reactions.
You can move forward. You cannot move, nor force H to do so. In fact, he will fight against such.
Originally Posted by Mama2
Do I acknowledge our 26th anniversary in 2 days? If so, how?
Follow H’s lead in these type of things.
MLCers cannot handle pressure. Any pressure and they bolt. Pressure, trying to change them, forcing them, pushing the, right out the door.
Me suggestion. Get a card. A generic card. Not a lovey-dovey card for sure.
If H gives you a card, you’ll have one for him. If he lets the day go unrecognized, do the same.
It’s like relationship talks advice. Initiate no R-talks. Not for quite some time. H cannot handle the pressure. If H initiates an R-talk, proceed very very carefully. Let him do the talking.
That’s a lot of stuff to sift through and process. I do hope some resonates with you.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
First, how do I thank you for the detailed response? This forum is nothing short of amazing. Sincerely grateful.
H bought a house and moved out minimal items - his closet and bureaus are still mostly full. H didn't take much summer clothes but has stopped in for a handful of summer clothes in the last week. It hurts every time I see him grab more - it's like he's moving out more and more and a reminder that he's not ready to move back home. Other than clothes, most of his belongings are still at home - he didn't take much more than necessities, our framed wedding picture, pictures of the family/kids.
When you say, "A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority.", could this be a very controlling and particular parent who dictated his decisions instead of considering his opinion? Or would it be more of an absent parent who didn't play ball with him because they were working? Recently, he mentioned that he attempted to commit suicide at 16 (I met him at 17) but I don't know what drove the attempt. Thankfully, he didn't. Should I try to probe to learn the reason? H's story to his family (back in Oct) was that he's D because he won't be controlled anymore. H won't be a 'yes man' any more.
When you say, "The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.", I am being logical and can't make sense of the running. We've held each other's hands and gotten through all struggles together. What is the reason for not letting me help? Not trusting in me to help? I'm not taking it personally, although I did at one point. Rather, I'm trying to understand how to let someone (even if its not me) help him. H is so depressed and alone.
I've read comments like the one you share: Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. I just can't apply this thinking because since Nov, he is sooo depressed. Doesn't go anywhere. Man of few words. Keeps to himself. But has started to drink (not excessively but he never drank so he's drinking which is a change) and continues to smoke pot and started to use nicotine pouches to relieve stress. If he went back to 16 (attempt to end life), it would make sense that he's drinking, using pot (yes, I know it's legal in many states), behaving like a teenager. I remember him having a 11:00 curfew until he was 21 and HATED it. Often got angry at parents, but obliged. H wanted to stay in dorm with me but was required to go home every night. H was 17, 18, 19 then but still coming home for 11 resentfully. Could he be trying to relive those years without the curfew? And, that's why H would come home at 3 or 4 am in Oct? H LOVES his mom who passed 6 years ago next week. I would be surprised if any trauma is related to mom based on how he loves and misses her. Thoughts?
H doesn't call me names. H doesn't mistreat me unless I include abandonment. H is loving, soft spoken, caring...just doesn't say much. Oddly, since Jan, he's begun to reach out to the kids - sometimes with odd things. H didn't wish them a HNY either. But, he got a tattoo and sent a pic of it to them today - kids didn't know he was getting one. On the other hand, I knew he was getting one to honor his mom but didn't reach out to me today at all, and that includes no pic.
Love the lighthouse story - really resonates! Like I say, I don't always know how to apply knowledge learned. For instance, is me asking H to take a vacation with me smart? Is me 'letting' him take me to cancer appts smart? And, why is he the perfect husband on cancer days? Why does he NEED to take me to appts? "Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to." This makes me think that having a family member take me to cancer appts would be wiser. Not letting him in the house would be wiser. Yet, none of that feels right...
In my situation, what are some examples that I can use to 'stir the pot' as I've read about?
Lastly, I've initiated R talks with lots of caution and he doesn't seem opposed, but doesn't embrace a scheduled conversation. Just yesterday on our way to cancer appt, I mentioned that he asked for space in Sept and that most people need 3 to 4 weeks; not 3 to 4 years of space ((I know that to not always be the case but go with it). He chuckled at the 3 to 4 years part and agreed not that long. Then I played along and counted how many months it's been since Sept as if I wasn't keenly aware that it's been 7 months. Cautiously, I then said, at what point do we talk again and determine if we should go in opposite directions or commit to our relationship? He nodded with no words. After waiting a bit, I said, "I feel like if I wait for you, you'll never approach me." H corrected me with a soft voice and said he will. I asked him if he was scared to talk or scared of me. H said no. I thanked him and asked if this conversation was making him uncomfortable. H said: "no, conversation is fine. " I then asked if he felt like I have been pressuring him. Again, he said, no. Based on yesterday, I was led to think that he's grateful that I put into words what he may be thinking and that he's looking for assurance that he can turn to me. How do you read this?
First, how do I thank you for the detailed response?
You are most welcome.
Originally Posted by MamaG
When you say, "A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority.", could this be a very controlling and particular parent who dictated his decisions instead of considering his opinion? Or would it be more of an absent parent who didn't play ball with him because they were working?
Or both. It could be person or persons in a position of authority. Parent(s) are usually the most likely. Uncles, Aunts, Grandparents, as well as teachers, coaches, priests/ministers, and such. Someone trusted and charged with the youngster’s care. A trust they abuse and twist.
The trauma(s) can be a singular or few events, or a long time (think years) of neglect, ignoring, abandonment, etc. Or both. And even more. My XW’s trauma(s), as much as I’ve been able to deduce, is horrible and twisted. An uncle’s actions when she was 7 and 13, known and covered up by aunt, grandparents, and parents. Coupled with a childhood of not being allowed to have anyone over to the house, or to go hardly ever go out. Basically no friends. So incredible different than how I was raised.
Children are very ego-centric; the world revolves around them. As such, they internalize these trauma(s), and they blame themselves. For to their immature minds, it must be their fault. Any questions they have would be to the very authority figure who inflicted it. So, no clarity or answers for the youngster, just their self-crafted story of “why”. Their young minds unable to grasp such troubling concepts, push it all down, bury it, deny it, elsewise their psyche would shatter.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Recently, he mentioned that he attempted to commit suicide at 16 (I met him at 17) but I don't know what drove the attempt. Thankfully, he didn't. Should I try to probe to learn the reason?
My advice would be to allow H to discuss as he feels. When he feels safe to explore. Do not push for any answers. When/if he brings stuff up, just validate his feelings is all. No other probing. Validating, will let H realize someone hears him, and he might say more as he uncovers more.
However, the LBS usually gets painted as the bad guy in the MLCer’s narrative. The crisis person projects upon and blames their spouse, unable to realize the true cause of their feelings.
Interestingly, affairs play a part in the horrible path. The MLCer crafts justifications to stray from their spouse. Remember, this is an emotional train wreck the crisis person is embroiled in. The affair partner is usually an affair down, a much lesser person than the spouse they are tossing aside. The AP is cast into role of parent or long ago authority figure, all quite unknowingly to the MLCer by the way. They use the affair partner. The AP is a band-aid, a symptom, of their deep trauma(s). The MLCer uses their AP as parent to rebel against and grow up from.
Of course, such a path is not the ideal healthy way to heal. Far from it. However, these crisis folks are stunted and not emotionally healthy, so they grasp whatever straws they can. This course brings about a myriad of other problems. As well as shame, regret, and so on. Which is even more stuff to run from. The abyss pulls them in, engulfs them, pretty quickly. It takes a long while to crawl out of such. And some simply never do.
Originally Posted by MamaG
When you say, "The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.", I am being logical and can't make sense of the running. We've held each other's hands and gotten through all struggles together. What is the reason for not letting me help? Not trusting in me to help?
Because it’s not about you.
You cannot help him, for you didn’t break him.
MLCers are dragged back to their trauma(s). To that time. To that age. They behave like it. They see the world like it.
My XW lives like she was when she was around 18. When pressured, she reverts to a girl of 13. And with more pressure, she becomes a child of age 7. The very ages of her traumas. By the way, she was thrown out of her house and her parents’ lives when she turned 18. (Such a messed up family.)
I’ve seen her (witnessed by friend and son) alter, time travel, to the different persons / personalities. And it is the most spookiest thing I’ve ever seen.
MLCers are their teenage self. Your H, feels likely like his 16 year old self. Intellectually he knows you. Yet, emotionally, he is 16. A time when he was not married, had no kids, no job, none of the responsibilities, etc. This is how and why a MLCer can seem/be so uncaring and lack empathy. They simply do not feel it.
Speaking of feelings. Depression is ever present in a crisis. The MLCer desperately tries to run from their ceaseless depression, torment, and pain. A 16 year old H, remember not feeling or empathizing with you and his present married life, looks for some relief. Spending money is a pretty common running behaviour. Imagine a depressed teen with a huge bank account. Not likely to look inward as much as they would just spend and have good times to drowned the demons.
Things is, no matter how far one goes, how fast one runs, there they are. One cannot outrun themselves.
In the dark stillness of night, when lying in bed, his demons will come out to play.
Depression and lack of sleep shows and takes its toll. MLCer’s age, suffer aliments, and become less healthy. The very opposite of what they are trying to achieve with their futile attempts in reliving their youth.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I'm not taking it personally, although I did at one point. Rather, I'm trying to understand how to let someone (even if it’s not me) help him. H is so depressed and alone.
Good. Do not take it personally.
Unfortunately, MLCer’s do not see themselves as needing help. To them, they are finally living their authentic life.
Of course, they are running from everything and everyone, even themselves.
Suggesting counselling or therapy or such usually is met with anger. You can’t even lead this horse to water, never mind getting it to drink. Giving H to God. Time and space. I know, that’s a hard pill to swallow, to feel so powerless to help.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I've read comments like the one you share: Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. I just can't apply this thinking because since Nov, he is sooo depressed. Doesn't go anywhere. Man of few words. Keeps to himself. But has started to drink (not excessively but he never drank so he's drinking which is a change) and continues to smoke pot and started to use nicotine pouches to relieve stress. If he went back to 16 (attempt to end life), it would make sense that he's drinking, using pot (yes, I know it's legal in many states), behaving like a teenager. I remember him having a 11:00 curfew until he was 21 and HATED it. Often got angry at parents, but obliged. H wanted to stay in dorm with me but was required to go home every night. H was 17, 18, 19 then but still coming home for 11 resentfully. Could he be trying to relive those years without the curfew? And, that's why H would come home at 3 or 4 am in Oct? H LOVES his mom who passed 6 years ago next week. I would be surprised if any trauma is related to mom based on how he loves and misses her. Thoughts?
I think you have seen/see things well and with clarity. Hopefully, I’ve filled in some more blanks for you.
The big thing, you my dear are not crazy. The wild behaviours, the weird time travel, H’s moods, his ping ponging about, flipping personalities on a dime, all true!
Most folks have no clue about this stuff. Society thinks midlife crisis as a comedy - that Hollywood version. You know different. You’ve seen behind the curtain. Most people don’t and will not believe you. Even vehemently denying the existence of MLC.
Shrug, oh well. Until I experienced bomb drop and the horrific after math, I had absolutely no idea of this world. I was blissfully unaware.
The human mind is both incredibly strong and incredibly fragile.
My foray into this was BD. Then W, married 26 years, together 31, stood up after Thanksgiving diner and our full bellies, in front of my parents, our four kids, and son’s GF, and tossed this grenade upon the table:
“DnJ, I can’t live with you anymore. You get the house, the cars, and the kids. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.”
She threw her own children away like they were old clothes!
Complete bedlam erupted! May Dad and one son got super angry. One son couldn’t breathe. My daughter was crying. I was just stunned.
W and I talked in the living room for a bit. She revealed her boyfriend. Told me I was old and she was not (I was 49 at the time, she was 46.) Her reasoning for her life change: the furnace blows cold air on her; my work truck burns too much gas while she was trying to save the planet (my/our personal car was/is a Prius); she needs sunlight, rainy days feel like death to her; etc.
Dumbfounded is understatement of my and the family members’ reaction. No one saw this coming. Heck, her and I sat side by side that very afternoon while we played cards. All nine of us squished around the table. Her and I together, pressed thigh to thigh. The Thanksgiving Day outdoor games and activities likewise enjoyed together. Then, kaboom!
She left that night. 10:00pm, three hours after bomb drop, she walked down the dark 1400 foot driveway to the awaiting OM. Over the next few days she moved out.
OM is my neighbour. He and her live 3/4 mile south of me.
W pushed for a divorce. We were legally separated in two months and divorce ten months later.
She’s still with him. She still treats her now grown up kids as used clothes. She’s a very lost soul.
I understand and empathize with you. I’ve found peace and contentment, forgiven XW, forgiven myself, and lead/raised my children as a single Dad for the last seven years. My kids are doing awesome by the way. Lots of open honest discussions over the years. I offer what I can, and walk with folks through their sorrow and pain.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Love the lighthouse story - really resonates! Like I say, I don't always know how to apply knowledge learned. For instance, is me asking H to take a vacation with me smart? Is me 'letting' him take me to cancer appts smart? And, why is he the perfect husband on cancer days? Why does he NEED to take me to appts? "Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to." This makes me think that having a family member take me to cancer appts would be wiser. Not letting him in the house would be wiser. Yet, none of that feels right...
DB, at first, is highly counterintuitive. It will feel wrong.
Divorce busting is about taking rational well thought out actions and less emotional reactions.
The idea of smart or not, best or not, good or bad, is difficult. No one can see all ends. You do the best you can. Listen to the various suggestions of posters, therapists, family, friends, whomever, and do the best you can. And modify as you learn more. Grow and evolve.
That being said, my opinion, it’s too soon for vacation togetherness. After all, H is living in a separate house. He is actively and purposefully making space. Give it to him. No pressure.
When I first read your story, my thought was you should have a friend or other family member help you with travel to and from your cancer appointments. H is/has fired you as wife (or mostly fired). Let him feel the loss and consequences of his choices. Not in a mean or vindictive way, just let him lay in the bed he made. Besides, MLCers have the attention span of a gnat. Anything important, ensure you have a plan that doesn’t require H, as he is likely to flake out.
Take measures based upon your intellect, your reason. Yes, it will often go against your feelings. For a while anyhow. To me, it appears you are on the “right” path. Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by MamaG
In my situation, what are some examples that I can use to 'stir the pot' as I've read about?
I’d not purposefully stir the pot. Leave that to fate, karma, the universe, whatever/whomever. No need to paint a target upon yourself.
To be clear, don’t walk around on eggshells, or be a doormat! No way! You live and love your life. Enforce necessary boundaries. If H chooses to not be with you, fine. If H chooses to be with you, fine. Either way, you will be, and are, fine.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Lastly, I've initiated R talks with lots of caution and he doesn't seem opposed, but doesn't embrace a scheduled conversation. Just yesterday on our way to cancer appt, I mentioned that he asked for space in Sept and that most people need 3 to 4 weeks; not 3 to 4 years of space ((I know that to not always be the case but go with it). He chuckled at the 3 to 4 years part and agreed not that long. Then I played along and counted how many months it's been since Sept as if I wasn't keenly aware that it's been 7 months. Cautiously, I then said, at what point do we talk again and determine if we should go in opposite directions or commit to our relationship? He nodded with no words. After waiting a bit, I said, "I feel like if I wait for you, you'll never approach me." H corrected me with a soft voice and said he will. I asked him if he was scared to talk or scared of me. H said no. I thanked him and asked if this conversation was making him uncomfortable. H said: "no, conversation is fine. " I then asked if he felt like I have been pressuring him. Again, he said, no. Based on yesterday, I was led to think that he's grateful that I put into words what he may be thinking and that he's looking for assurance that he can turn to me. How do you read this?
Something to remember:
Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.
H is emotionally driven. His in the moment words and most actions will come from his emotional state. Look to long term constant demonstrated behaviours. For a while, likely a good while, H is going to be a mess. Going to be all over the place. Questions of why he said something, or why he did something, is basically - because he felt like it.
Sometimes things are positive, sometimes things are negative with H, his words, and his behaviours/actions. Don’t read into it too much. Just a few data points so far.
MLCers move slow. Glacially slow. And they really don’t experience time the same anymore. Months, years, will pass with hardly a notice from them. Like Rip Van Winkle they miss out on so much. Kids grow up and are no longer the small children they left behind. MLCers are lost and trapped in their past.
H is on his journey. A journey you, thankfully, were not invited to.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You said: A MLCer has the attention span of a gnat. They will flake or forget appointment, or simply cannot handle some interaction and will run. Like New Years for example. (Hence, the replay stage, running behaviours.)
My Q: with all the detail I've provided, can you call out other replay indicators/running behaviors that I'm just not connecting the dots to? BTW, he is no longer going for long rides and is trying to not ghost me in between appointments. I've made him aware of it by showing texting history - he didn't know he was doing it but is now catching and adjusting it when he notices.
Also, H agreed to a R-talk for this weekend. Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
MamaG,
I'm not sure what you can ask about the R, but let me offer a few thoughts on the communication parts since I’m a man of few words myself. It is NOT that I have nothing to say or that I have no emotion to express. I usually think. Me personally I don’t always think in words, but in concepts. And then it take effort to put concepts, thoughts or feelings into words. Like most men, I don’t process by talking about it. I retreat to think about it. Or retreat to examine how I feel about it. Then I have to translate it into words. Don’t misinterpret silences. They generally won’t mean the same thing as if another woman gave you silence. For me that would often just mean I’m working through it.
I found in my reading this year that this was described reasonably well by a couple of John Gray books. They offer handy practical guides to translating behavior and speech patterns of the sexes.
- Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - What you Mother couldn’t tell you and your Father didn’t know
And coincidentally my reading of TSquared2’s threads tonight included this post about men, talking, and feelings. Perhaps you will find it of value.
Also, H agreed to a R-talk for this weekend. Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
Most people arriving here think that talking will help solve this. I do not recall anyone here ever being successful at that. That is why one of the IMPORTANT DBing rules is to avoid INITIATING RELATIONSHIP TALKS.
The successful ones STFU and listen and observe and change the way they interact and the way they behave when they are around the wayward spouse.
He blames you for his unhappiness. The only way for him to stop blaming you for this unhappiness is you giving him enough time and space away from you to realize he is unhappy without you and start missing you. He needs to feel like he lost you.
Friday, text him "Something important came up and I will not be able to get together with you this weekend. TTYL"
This is intentionally vague. Do you think this statement will peak his interest??? If you do not engage with him all weekend, who do you think he will be thinking about?
You are focused on the wrong person. Focus all of your energy on YOU and making positive changes to your behavior. How hard is it to change just one of your habits? I bet pretty hard. Attempting to change another persons (husbands) behaviors is almost impossible.
PS:
I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. It was the best worse thing that ever happened to me.
I wish you well and will be praying for you.
HUGS
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
