I had a conversation with W y'day that I'm not happy about, and I'm struggling to understand how I let it happen.
She was sitting on the couch after I had dropped D6 off at gymnastics and I asked for her availability to meet with mediator, who I had called earlier in the afternoon. The mediator's first opening was this Thursday and I told her that would be the best time for me, and that I wanted to get the ball rolling.
She came up with all kinds of excuses about how she had other stuff to do, didn't want to drive all the way to the mediator's office, was too tired to talk about it, etc. This is where I let my emotions get the best of me - I didn't flip out or anything, but I became exasperated and it showed. I asked her what could be more important that dealing with this, told her the kids deserved to know and we hadn't made any progress in moving forward, pointed out that she had time to go out and drink all day Saturday so why didn't she have time to address other life stuff over the weekend, etc. She wants to keep the house so I asked her to provide me with a proposal to do that, and she hadn't. Where was her game plan? I was ready to move forward and instead things were stuck, and I wasn't going to accept that. In short I was pressuring and not emotionally detached from the conversation.
Later my FIL came over and I addressed it w him directly, bc any game plan that leads to her staying in the house needs his involvement. We are mostly aligned about W's behavior being out of control and he empathized with me coming to a final decision to end the MR. After that conversation I had a more measured talk with W about the sitch and moving forward. She explained that she feels overwhelmed and doesn't know how to handle things and we discussed the potential plan in a more measured way. She did tell me I need to get out more and let off some steam, which was a direct jab at the fact that I am not drinking at the moment. I am still actively GAL, just not partying. At one point she asked why I was so eager to get this going, and I told her I was tired of living like roommates and was not going to accept this life for myself any longer. She asked "so what, do you want to date?" and I said yes, I'm ready to move forward with my life in many ways. She said "go ahead and date", to which I responded "I am not going to date while still tied up in a marriage". And that was it.
Posting here because after weeks of staying grounded and centered, I came off it y'day. even after months of learning to accept the D, I still have days in which I am in disbelief, so I am sure W is dealing with that times ten still.
One more item to mention, and it's important. During the first conversation I told W that she decided to "blow up our family" when she had the affair and that I wasn't overly sympathetic to her needing more time, or taking it slowly. She grabbed on to that and said "I can see you're still not over it and still angry about it". She's not wrong.
This back and forth speaks to the fact that W refused to engage in any form of reconciliation-type discussion at all, and swept all of this under the rug as fast as possible. My "moving forward" has been done alone in therapy and confiding to close friends/family. It's my view that this process will pick up speed once we no longer live together, hence my desire to move forward.
I think the problem here is that you don't want a divorce but feel like you have no choice but to divorce. That is why you are still not detached. I think a small part of you thought that forcing her hand might wake her up. The truth of the matter is when a woman loses attraction for a man it rarely returns. If it does it is usually when a man is killing it in life and would have zero desire to take her back. That's the catch-22 of this entire process.
Realize right now that it is going to take a really long time to uncouple yourself with her and a really long time before you are ready to date and a really long time before you find someone that fits into your new world. There are no shortcuts. Use your time wisely. Are you in your best shape physically? Have you learned what women want in a man? Have you figured out your purpose?
I promise you if you master these things you will find what you are looking for in life. If not, you may be still here ten years later complaining about what your wife is still doing to you and your family.
Good luck man, I'm at the exact same point as you, excuses for meeting with mediator and confronting/dealing with issues. Even if you don't plan on dating anyone it feels great to get out and socialize and helps build up your own confidence. Women are good at picking up visual cues of how you are feeling and how you present yourself so if she sees your mentally moving on and distancing she will think twice about her disposition and behaviour. I would suggest also getting a lawyer on retainer to go along with mediation, lawyers can send simple letters to her to encourage moving forward with mediation and they'll also give you good legal counsel on what your options are. Have you considered putting the house up for sale as an extra option. Mine right now is suggesting she buy me out but I have a signed listing agreement to push the issue. I have also asked her for a concrete buyout proposal but I sense in your case and mine is a ploy to delay the process because she can make excuses and delay this way. A listing agreement has a set date and creates deadlines.
I think the problem here is that you don't want a divorce but feel like you have no choice but to divorce.
The truth of the matter is when a woman loses attraction for a man it rarely returns.
Correct. My view is that I had two options in my sitch: rip off the band aid now and get divorced, or continue living in a dead marriage while working on myself and getting ready to leave. After ~2 years of working on myself while subsidizing a WW, I decided I am no longer willing to live this way. I'm ready-ish, and that's good enough. I've had enough time to realize W is permanently checked out and remaining married is the wrong thing to do. It's the decision I made and I am at peace with it. Most days all it takes is a reminder of the litany of ways W had disrespected me in order to feel confident in my decision, but yesterday I slipped up.
Originally Posted by Boat14
Realize right now that it is going to take a really long time to uncouple yourself with her and a really long time before you are ready to date and a really long time before you find someone that fits into your new world.
Yet another reason why I am eager to get going.
Originally Posted by Boat14
Are you in your best shape physically? Have you learned what women want in a man? Have you figured out your purpose?
Yes to being in shape, and signed up for a spartan race and triathlon this summer. Yes to understanding attraction, and still studying it daily. Happy in my career and a high earner, but looking for a deeper purpose that truly drives me to the point where it has my whole focus aside from the kids.
Originally Posted by Boat14
I promise you if you master these things you will find what you are looking for in life. If not, you may be still here ten years later complaining about what your wife is still doing to you and your family.
I refuse to be Angry Divorced Guy, which is why I still post here despite no longer trying to bust a D. Thanks Boat.
Everyone slips or struggles at times. It’s ok. Get up, dust off, and get back on the path.
Originally Posted by Maturin
One more item to mention, and it's important. During the first conversation I told W that she decided to "blow up our family" when she had the affair and that I wasn't overly sympathetic to her needing more time, or taking it slowly. She grabbed on to that and said "I can see you're still not over it and still angry about it". She's not wrong.
Yes, that is very important. You have work to do!
Mat, no matter how this situation goes, no matter what happens, do you want peace with past? The affair?
Finding and obtaining acceptance (and forgiveness) of such a betrayal is difficult. However, it is for you. And within your control and abilities to achieve.
So yes. Very important!
Regarding dating. Totally agree, not while married. And, I agree with Boat, long time before you’ll be ready to. Or even should. Most folks jump into dating or their next relationship with far too much baggage from their previous one.
Originally Posted by Maturin
The mediator's first opening was this Thursday and I told her that would be the best time for me, and that I wanted to get the ball rolling.
Simply give her your schedule.
It’s hard living in limbo when one is trying to control things. Lots of uncertainty in limbo. Leaving the heavy lifting to W and just responding, is your best course to embrace such times.
Originally Posted by Maturin
I was ready to move forward and instead things were stuck, and I wasn't going to accept that.
And not accepting leads to loss of your calm grounded balance.
You cannot control W. She’s dragging things out, pushing your buttons, and so on. Let her go. Let her be.
You gave her your schedule. The ball is in her court. Leave it there. Let her do her part.
Don’t fret over yesterday’s conversation. Keep moving forward.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Finding and obtaining acceptance (and forgiveness) of such a betrayal is difficult. However, it is for you. And within your control and abilities to achieve.
Acceptance is proving difficult. Many times I thought I had accepted what happened and moved forward only to be pulled back into anger, sadness, and frustration. Watching W continue to party like nothing happened is part of this: I want to get to a place where I no longer care what she is doing. I'm much closer now than I was 6 months ago, but still not "there" yet.
Originally Posted by DnJ
And not accepting leads to loss of your calm grounded balance.
Hey M. Wow that is a lot to deal with. I find the "quote" functionality exhausting here so I'm going old school and manually quote things you say above that I'd like to offer feedback about.
First, it sounds like you're trying to do this without a L. I thought about the same thing. It also sounds that you, like me, are doing fairly well from a career perspective. I thought "I'm smart enough to figure this out. Why pay $X per hour for a L?" Ultimately a mentor and close friend told me that, especially when you have children, this is not a place to "do it yourself". In this situation, we have lots of feelings tugging at us, in addition to our day jobs, parenthood, and other roles we play. Playing a part-time lawyer can do more harm than good and that is a risk I was unwilling to take with my D13 at stake. I agree with another poster who recommends securing a lawyer, even if only an adequate one who can keep the D train running on time and on the rails.
In my state and county, our judge expects us to have either reached a settlment or to have met with a mediator by X date. The court is so clogged up with activity, they don't want "routine" Ds taking longer than one year so there is a hard date by which most Ds should be done at worst. I wonder if, even if you choose to continue going it alone, you might leverage similar expecations from your state and county court. W will have little wiggle room on those dates and a good L with advise her accordingly. Now, you said the following in your post:
"She came up with all kinds of excuses about how she had other stuff to do, didn't want to drive all the way to the mediator's office, was too tired to talk about it, etc. This is where I let my emotions get the best of me - I didn't flip out or anything, but I became exasperated and it showed. I asked her what could be more important that dealing with this, told her the kids deserved to know and we hadn't made any progress in moving forward, pointed out that she had time to go out and drink all day Saturday so why didn't she have time to address other life stuff over the weekend, etc. She wants to keep the house so I asked her to provide me with a proposal to do that, and she hadn't. Where was her game plan? I was ready to move forward and instead things were stuck, and I wasn't going to accept that. In short I was pressuring and not emotionally detached from the conversation."
It sounds like you already recognize where this went awry. Based on something I read in DB or DR...or perhaps my DB coach told me the first time I went through this, before you say or do some of the things you did, ask yourself if it is likely to help or hurt the goal you're trying to achieve. To me, this likely drove your W to feel bad, ramp up to fight or defend herself, and not do anything to show you that you may be right. As Boat suggests, I sense you're still fondling the "rope" a bit here.
At this point, I'd recommend treating this more like a professional, business interaction if you don't want to leverage a L or your state/county legal process. What bargaining power do you have to incentivze W to cooperate otherwise?
Regarding your FIL, respectfully, he has no standing in this discussion (beyond what you choose to give him of course). I suppose if he can truly be "helpful" by all means leverage him. However, she will always be his daughter as you know. Again, I strongly believe a L is worth their hourly rate at this point. The path you're following, to me, seems to continue to enable your W to shirk accountability and responsibility. You and her father are managing around her, for here. I hope that makes sense. It also helps you avoid or minimize her opportunity to redirect things by saying things like you "need to get out more and let off some steam".
And, better yet, avoid or minimize her chance to say things like "so what, do you want to date?" For me, the response to that issue has been "Discussions about dating are immaterial for the foreseeable future; my priority is my children and completing the D process." Exit the conversation.
Remember, our goal is to be cordial and brief. Say the least that needs to be said to facilitate a productive conversation. Facts, not feelings. Easy, right? Absolutely not! You recognize that and where you're falling off the wagon so to speak. I fight the urge to run up to my moral high ground and lecture my W about how she's contributed to how we got here. I also know it won't help my cause in terms of trying to negotiation a reasonable settlement with the mother of my child (to whom I'll have some level of interaction with as long as both of us and D13 are alive). As the ever-wise DNJ suggests, forgiveness is for yourself.
Nobody has power over you unless you give it away. And, respectfully, you are giving W power (from my perspective) over you that I don't want to see you give away. The 180 to pull here is to shift to managing this relationship in a more clinical, business-like, and minimal way IMHO. Again, I say this with the best of intent to try and offer you a neutral opinion that I hope will be helpful to hear, whatever you choose to do. All my best in support of you, P.
I find the "quote" functionality exhausting here so I'm going old school and manually quote things you say above that I'd like to offer feedback about.
Quoting can be a bit cumbersome, especially multiple quotes utilizing the quote button (shudder). I suspect you’ve seen this guide.
