Her drinking defenately affects her ability to parent. (If you stay together or seperate). Figuring out how to address this should trump if you stay together or seperate. I am not an expert in this area, but you can do lots of research into this. Strong boundaries are needed.
From My Notes (not sure the source):
Quote
Big Relationship change “I have been thinking about my future and what I want long-term, the kind of man I want to be with for life and to start a family with. Here is what he will look like: He will be loving, smart, fun, and someone I connect well with, and he'll have my same values. Also, he will be responsible, will think about the future, will be going somewhere, and will be a good provider. He will take care of the basic things, like being financially responsible and normal things that adults do. That is what I am looking for and that is the kind of person I will be with. Right now, that is not you. I love you, and I want that person to be you, but right now, it is not. So I can't see a future together as things are now. But I am going to give you a choice: you get to decide whether or nor you want to be that person. If you do, and you become that kind of person and prove it to me long enough that I really can believe it, I would love to be with you. But it is up to you whether or not that is who you want to be and whether or not you want to be with me. It is your decision."
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thanks R2C, that is good framework for a conversation. I'll give it some thought. My initial reaction is that she would take that offer as a way to buy more time and just continue living her current WW lifestyle. I can already see her rolling her eyes at "That is what I am looking for and that is the kind of person I will be with." She does not see me as the prize and the threat of me walking doesn't hold much weight. It's the main reason I feel that filing D is the next logical step here. I am ok with ending the MR at this point, and if she can turn things around during the entirety of my state's 6 month waiting period I would consider not finalizing things.
I've done a lot of work on myself the last two years. Much of the advice here and elsewhere for those in my sitch is to build yourself back into the person you were when you met your W (or better) and be prepared to leave if things don't improve. When you turn back at the door what you'll see is no longer someone you're afraid to lose, but someone who isn't providing you with the value you expect for yourself in relationship. Obviously we're not talking "you don't make my favorite dish often enough", we're talking "I don't trust you to care for our kids because you have a drinking problem". I'm not "that guy" yet but I feel I'm close.
MY IC and parents have both said to me constantly that "the kids know something is wrong". We don't have a high conflict marriage (no fighting in general and none in front of the kids) so I've pushed back on that idea. But last night D6 came to me before bed and said "Daddy, one day can we take a trip as a whole family where mommy comes too? We never do that." To which S5 responded, "We did that one time when we went to <vacation>". That trip was one year ago.
M I just want to say that you are on the right track and heading towards a better future. You are starting to understand your value as a person and are coming to realize that this marriage doesn’t work for you. You don’t make excuses for your W MLC, Aliens believe nothing they say etc. Currently you are correct she doesn’t see value in you. Some day that may change. You cross that bridge when you come to it. Keep moving forward.
Big Relationship change “I have been thinking about my future and what I want long-term, the kind of man I want to be with for life and to start a family with. Here is what he will look like: He will be loving, smart, fun, and someone I connect well with, and he'll have my same values. Also, he will be responsible, will think about the future, will be going somewhere, and will be a good provider. He will take care of the basic things, like being financially responsible and normal things that adults do. That is what I am looking for and that is the kind of person I will be with. Right now, that is not you. I love you, and I want that person to be you, but right now, it is not. So I can't see a future together as things are now. But I am going to give you a choice: you get to decide whether or nor you want to be that person. If you do, and you become that kind of person and prove it to me long enough that I really can believe it, I would love to be with you. But it is up to you whether or not that is who you want to be and whether or not you want to be with me. It is your decision."
If you were to say those words to her... they would currently fall on deaf ears. She is not able to have emotionally mature conversations. Even if she agrees - change is unlikely to follow.
M - All three of my serious partners have had addiction issues. Today - all 3 of them of sober. And as much as I wish it was something I said or did - ultimately they all hit their form of rock bottom. They had to get so tired of being that way - THEY decided to choose something different. All i had to do...was get out of their way. Stop the enabling and let them fall... fast and hard. Easier said than done for sure (it actually took me a few times to learn this lesson...lol) but it is the most loving thing you can do for your wife. And it's the only way there is a possibility for change.
The hard truth M is that you enable your w. Whether that's for your kids, or for your sanity.. there is a part you play in the story.
Please know it comes with no judgement. Living with an alcoholic is miserable. Up until now - you have been doing the best you can with the tools you have... but M - it's time to learn new tools.
If you want a big relationship change - you can't say anything to her... but you can show her the change.
For example: Step back for a minute... detach from the fact this woman is your wife and the mother of your kids.
Would you let an alcoholic go places with your kids in the car knowing that there is a possibility she could drive home drunk with them?? My guess is not
Would you let you children be around an alcoholic who acts like a complete idiot when drunk. Calling you names and belittling you and just exposing them to that chaos? My guess is not.
Would you give money to alcoholic who makes excuses to why they can't show up and adult properly? My guess is not
M - none of these things require a sit down conversation with your w. They require some d@mn firm boundaries. And I won't lie - if things are gonna get better... they will get a h3ll of alot worse first.
Enough conversations. Enough words. It's time for actions. You got this.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
The hard truth M is that you enable your w. Whether that's for your kids, or for your sanity.. there is a part you play in the story.
Yes, you're right. For years I played fixer: drove her to get her car the next day, soothed her when she recounted embarrassing stories from the night before, and of course the big one: drank late into the night with her many times. I would go home early to relieve the babysitter so she could stay out and drink, believing the excuse "I've been with the kids all week, I need to get away." This is where garden-variety alcoholic enabling and DB'ing intersect: the more I enabled and was a pushover, the more she began to lose respect for me. I spent too many years playing peacekeeper.
For a while now I've stopped that behavior. I don't go out with my wife, ever. Haven't for at least 6 months. But I still allow her to take advantage. When I schedule time with the kids, she schedules time to drink.
Her family is the same: all either drinkers or enablers. I chastised her mom about this three months ago. A month after DDay I scheduled time on a Saturday to plan a hunt at a friend's house. W took our kids to her brother's for a birthday party and then scheduled a babysitter to watch the kids after the party so she could watch football (and drink). She texted me to ask when I would be home so she could tell the sitter. I simply replied I was not relieving the babysitter that night and that she needed to be home for the sitter.
Well, W threw a fit so her mom took our kids for a sleepover. This enabled my W to stay out and drink until 2am. I ripped into her mom for this.
All this points back to the D conversation. Truth be told, she would exist in this current world indefinitely. I am responsible and she gets to mess around.
That's where the action part comes in. I've removed my time and attention, but if a W doesn't value those it feels more like a relief than a loss. So you're left with D. And each day that I plan for it, I feel less afraid. I would go so far as to say at this point that any fear I have left is for my kids, not myself.
***MrP's pre-post disclaimer - I'm not a therapist; just a guy who spent some QT in therapy, reads a lot, and experienced a relationship troubles a time or two who is offering some peer-to-peer feedback. Consult with your IC for professional guidance.***
I agree with Boat that something brief and tight like "W, for some time now we've been disconnected and it doesn't work for me. I no longer want to live this way and I 'm going to file D. Let's talk about what that would look like" is best. I try to give myself no more than 3-5 complete sentences when having a difficult conversation like this that needs to be focused. Maybe:
1. I continue to feel unhappy with this marriage right now. 2. I want to be in a relationship that (briefly describe 2-3 things that are crucial to you and without referencing W or using the word "you" about her) OR something like.... 3. I want a partner who fully loves me and my children, and will actively work to maintain put a relationship with me first. 4. At this point, divorce is the best option for me. 5. I need to talk about what that would look like, especially for (insert kids' names).
Note that my suggestions are all focused on YOU and solely on your needs/wants. Nothing like "OUR" kids, "OUR marriage" or "your drinking doesn't work for me". You're articulating what the standards are for any partner who will be qualified to be in a relationship with you going forward. In theory, it reduces the likelihood of an "attack" response because you aren't directly criticizing or provoking her (quick shoutout to the chapter in The Solo Partner that discusses blame; I DID retain some of what I read).
Now, certainly she can say "OH AND CLEARLY THAT'S NOT ME" or "WELL I GUESS I DON'T MEET YOUR LOFTY STANDARDS MATURIN", "OH AND YOU'RE SO PERFECT' or something similar. People who want to fight, deflect, deny what's happening, feel like they've lost control/power over you, etc. will find a way to try to bait you into the conflict. You job again is to not tak the bait in the trap and calmly stick to your guns:
1. Everything I stated is about my needs and standards in a relationship going foward. 2. Divorce seems the best option for getting my needs met. 3. I recognize this decision can be a shock. 4. If not is not a good time to talk, I hope (later today, tomorrow, or some other option in the next day) will work when a conversation might be more productive.
And then exit the conversation...which means you'll likely want to plan the conversation for a point in time that best enables a clean exit and/or reduces the opportunity for W to follow you while trying to continue to ignite conflict. After a similar conversation, my W followed me to my office and, when I shut the door and locked it, tracked down the spare key (so, also, hide spare keys).
My recollection from reading MANY posts in this forum is that, at this point, you've got to be ready to D. It doesn't mean it will happen or that you may never R in the future if by some miracle W has an epiphany. You do have to be at a point where if those standards above aren't met or if the life you'd be living conflicts with your values, you will walk (and keep walking). Otherwise your words are hollow.
I know you've got an IC so I'd recommend working with them to confirm the feedback you're receiving from us armchair quarterbacks is right for your sitch. I always worry that something I suggest might not truly be best because we're only getting half the story in this forum.
Thanks P, your post is well timed. Thinking through how I plan to approach this I made a note in my phone last night. Rather than write a script, I put down the following:
*** Reasons the D works for me:
1. W betrayed my trust and recruited others to lie, I won't be with someone who does that. 2. W is a 37 year old mother of 3 who stays out at bars until 2am, not who I will be with. 3. W prioritizes drinking over kids and has become neglectful as a mother, not fair to kids.
When having the conversation:
1. Be congruent at all times 2. Do not let your emotions control you, especially when she tries to draw them out. 3. Key replies: "It's not that simple" and "I'll think about that and let you know." ***
These are high level ideas I plan to keep in my head at all times. Obviously this is a complicated sitch and the part I played in the MR breakdown is not covered here but I've worked hard to understand and own that. If she brings any of that up I will validate those feelings but keep the conversation focused on what must be done now.
Originally Posted by MrP
And then exit the conversation...which means you'll likely want to plan the conversation for a point in time that best enables a clean exit and/or reduces the opportunity for W to follow you while trying to continue to ignite conflict.
It's a work in progress at the moment, but my tentative plan is to have the kids spend the night at my parents on the day we have the convo. Afterwards I will leave the house for the night to create space.
Originally Posted by MrP
I know you've got an IC so I'd recommend working with them to confirm the feedback you're receiving from us armchair quarterbacks is right for your sitch
I had an appt y'day and discussed w him in detail. I would say the theme of that conversation was "What are you waiting for?" and we hashed that out. I aired my fears and doubts and dug into why I have them, and a difficult conversation produced a simple answer. Do nothing and remain miserable or take action and take your power back.
In other news, I turn 40 today and plan to eat a steak the size of my face for dinner. Onward!
