Boy, LH, your statement "I had a tough time accepting one person could make a decision for 4" really hits home. I keep having similar thoughts. I can't believe my W is willing to destroy this family we have created together. There is so much love in our house that she is going to implode. I pray that my children will be okay through this. It so isn't fair that they have to live with such a unexplainable decision.
Just read your entire sitch and am curious why you think your W is in MLC? Not sure I see the signs. Also, can you add a signature with years together, married and kids ages?
Thank you LH and AS. That is actually discouraging to be honest. I am starting to wonder why what we are doing is called divorce busting instead of something like 'healing after divorce'. If W is noticing our 180s, not angry and even happy to be connected to us but at the same time wants to be divorced there is no busting the divorce, just moving on right?
A lot more divorces would be busted if people got here just a little sooner than they do. 6 months to a year before BD a lot of these situations could be curbed before BD happens. But like LH said, once someone has been BD'd then the chances of saving the M are quite slim. So the focus changes from trying to save THAT marriage to trying to help people become "the spouse only a fool would leave" in the hopes that they can build a new R with that person down the road. So yes in a sense you are right that it's "healing after D" but we're not telling you to give up all hope on recon. We're just saying it's probably not going to happen on the timeline YOU want it to.
I think there's a forward in DR where Michele mentions she regrets not clarifying the timeline for DB'ing, that a lot of people read Divorce Busting and had the impression it was a fast process saving the M when in fact it can take a significant amount of time. Her rough estimate was to expect a month of work for every year of marriage, which would put most people in a year+ timeframe that we often mention. But every situation is unique and the timeline can be shorter or much longer.
The beauty of DB'ing is you start all of this self-improvement with the goal of rebuilding your M, but by the time you heal and become stronger and more confident, we've given you the tools for a far better R no matter who it is with. People sometimes complain there aren't enough "success stories" but nearly everyone on here eventually is a success story even if their M isn't saved.
When I came here I was in horrible shape, as bad or worse than anyone else here. Just absolutely despondent. I could see no path forward other than saving my M, it was either that or count the days until blessed death closed my eyes. Now it all just seems like a bad dream, almost like someone else went through it rather than me. The W that I thought I couldn't live without is just a friend now, a coparent to our kids. I'm physically and mentally stronger, I'm no longer codependent on her or anyone else, my career has thrived, I'm financially independent and stable, I have a fantastic relationship with my kids and I have an awesome young girlfriend that I really enjoy spending time with. DB'ing is what got me there, I mean I did all the "heavy lifting" but before DB'ing I had no idea what to do. DB'ing was my roadmap, my plan of action. It gives you order at a time you feel like you're living in chaos.
Originally Posted by LH19
Then there is the entire timeframe of the process. I truly believe over a 5 year period more then half will get a chance to reconcile but most won’t because it’s too late. Once time goes by you will realize life is too short to want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with you. (Read my tagline)
Exactly right. Many (maybe most) LBS's eventually do get an opportunity to reconcile and turn it down. Some because they "don't want to go through that again" and others because when someone refuses to love you, well eventually you quit loving them too. It's hard for most newer LBS's to believe that they will ever fall out of love with their WAS, but it absolutely does happen.
Boy, LH, your statement "I had a tough time accepting one person could make a decision for 4" really hits home. I keep having similar thoughts. I can't believe my W is willing to destroy this family we have created together. There is so much love in our house that she is going to implode. I pray that my children will be okay through this. It so isn't fair that they have to live with such a unexplainable decision.
Just read your entire sitch and am curious why you think your W is in MLC? Not sure I see the signs.
LH,Thank you for taking the time to read through my entire sitch. That means a lot.
Some more details on my sitch She was emotionally dependent on me for almost everything though 10 years of marriage. Then she started showing signs of trying to pursue happiness away from me. I did not see it earlier but I think I can see her denial stage now. We started doing more things outside the house, she never liked alcohol much but started drinking multiple days a week. She acted happy but I think she needed the alcohol to pretend she was happy with me. We had a big fight a year ago and she said she was not happy being with me. She started rewriting history and blaming me. I got upset and we both mentioned the D word and I consider this to be my official BD. When things cooled down, I apologized but we were in IHS now. I gave her "some" space but was still trying to win her back. She seemed depressed and would shut herself in her room most of the time. I did some 180s but not correctly. Eventually we had another fight 8 months later and she filed. It was only then I realized how badly I wanted to save the MR. I made all the mistakes - begging, pleading. She listened, gave me a talk on rewritten history, ILYBNILWY, the works. Later, I found this forum and started giving her space. Things improved and the tension got down but she did not want to back off from the D. The Ls kept the process going forward at a fast pace but I decided not to fight or resist the D and in 3 months the D was done just like that. Over the past 3 months she has become more friendly. She is now showing me respect and initiating conversations but still moved out.
Why I think she is in MLC Her father was away from home for extended periods of time when she was growing up. Classic set up to be a chaos kid. The progression of events seem to fit the MLC pattern. While the MR was not perfect she was happy to be a SAHM focused on kids and family. I can also see clear signs of her being in denial and anger stages. The replay was mostly focused on her trying to start a new career. I have no idea where she is now or if she is in MLC at all.
Why she may not be in MLC She is not wayward. She has not abandoned the kids. On the contrary she has been more focused on them. She has been selfish but not vindictive or hateful towards me
Exactly right. Many (maybe most) LBS's eventually do get an opportunity to reconcile and turn it down. Some because they "don't want to go through that again" and others because when someone refuses to love you, well eventually you quit loving them too. It's hard for most newer LBS's to believe that they will ever fall out of love with their WAS, but it absolutely does happen.
Thanks AS. At this point I still love my family and I would take her back to keep the wonderful thing we build over 10 years. But you are right that with time things are likely to change. One of the reasons for my "desperation" is that I know I cannot wait forever and I fear losing what I have because I decided to move on The confusing thing is she still shows signs of love and that is preventing me from moving on and driving me crazy. I guess time and space will help me also
Wow your situation is a lot like mine. My w was dependent on me for everything the first 15 years. She didn’t have many close friends and her sister was out of town. That turned into she lost her identity and she was just LH’s husband. The funny thing is now she is dependent on her parents. She does everything with them.
She still respects you so that is good. Women can’t love a man they don’t respect. Sandi is a big advocate of that statement. All my advice on here revolves around respect. Guys that hand over their balls and rollover like a doormat have no chance.
You have to set her free and live your life like she’s never coming back. Isn’t that the true testament of love? Giving her what she asked for with zero resistance.
Wow your situation is a lot like mine. My w was dependent on me for everything the first 15 years. She didn’t have many close friends and her sister was out of town. That turned into she lost her identity and she was just LH’s husband. The funny thing is now she is dependent on her parents. She does everything with them.
Wow, that is crazy. My W also is depending on her parents now emotionally. Sad thing is her parents are enabling her by "being there for her" and trying to get back control over her life by magnifying her history rewriting about how I am to blame for her decision to D and she is blameless in this whole thing.
Originally Posted by LH19
You have to set her free and live your life like she’s never coming back. Isn’t that the true testament of love? Giving her what she asked for with zero resistance.
Would be so much easier to love her that way if I did not have two blameless kids suffering the consequences of this
I'm a little late to the party, so I'll try to catch up with your story. I may make a few comments along the way.
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It took me more than 9 months after the bomb drop to realize my wife was in MLC.
Was this before or after you read Divorce Remedy?
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Originally Posted by IronWill Wow. I just learned a ton in these few posts. My W is at a similar point. 9 months in here. 2-3 months of full understanding on my part. My W is also in crisis, but I'm thinking she is MLC, WAS and/or perimenopause all combined.
I forgot to mention my wife is at perimenopause also. Seems like a very similar situation. I also often wonder if my wife is in crisis due to a combination of the three.
Guys, perimenopause is not a crisis. It is a transition. Like any other transition in life, the individual can turn everyone's life upside down by trying to make their personal transition a crisis.......but the actual perimenopause isn't----or shouldn't be a crisis in a woman's life.
Also, if you try to label your W as having MLC, WAW, WW and a mix of other conditions.........you will be confused when reading advice on the board as to what you should do, and you'll be making up your own rules (so to speak) b/c you see her as exceptional.
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From everything I have read the MLC rewriting the history of the marriage with the spouse as the villiam seems to be very common. Trying to talk logic or explain why they are wrong only makes things worse.
This is common for the MLC, WAW, and WW. They all bear some similar symptoms.
IMHO, most LBH's who first come to the board will diagnose their W as a WAW or having a MLC, b/c those are the two that MWD writes about in her books. If the W seems to be acting extremely out of character, the H comes to the conclusion she must be having a MLC. If you will read my threads (Help for the newcomer LBH who has a WW), I give my opinion in the differences of a WAW and a wayward W (which MWD does not separate the two in her books). On the first page, I list a few of the characteristics of a WW.
The following was posted on another thread:
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Originally Posted by sandi2
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Quote Despite her anger and walls being up I still seem to sense some kind of love, or hesitation of her decisions, or something??? Tough to explain but there is something about her that seems not completely willing to let go of relationship/family. Its really weird.
Sorry to tell you, but this is mostly what you want to see in her. ((hugs)) Apply what I just said above about her benefiting. If she is hesitating, it is b/c she benefits financially, emotionally, or physically.
Sandi, does this apply even if she is not wayward? I see similar signs of love in my exW and desire to play family but difference is her anger has decreased and is rarely angry. She goes out of the way to do nice things but is resolute about the end of the MR.
My answer is yes. As previously stated, whether WAW, WW or MLCW, there are similarities. There's the pursuit--distance, roller coaster ride, depression, uncertainty, anger, etc. (FWIW, I do believe there are slight differences between the female's experience and male's, based on the core differences in the sexes.) The woman looks at how she will benefit the best. Her reasons may not seem right or logical to the H, but this is about her.
IMHO, the three "categories" (if I may use that term) have some distinction. The WW has a hidden agenda when she leaves the MR. She is filled with resentment & disrespect toward her H. It's not someone else from her childhood, nor is it a reaction to some recent tragedy that sent her into a MLC.........it is all about her husband. She is so full of anger for her H. By the time she is "done", she will be acting out in some type of rebellion, such as Girls Gone Wild, or in some type of an affair, or shopping around for one. She compromises the character she once had, and starts showing signs of someone the H does not recognize. She is a deceiver, a betrayer and a liar. Selfishness and a sense of entitlement reign supreme in the WW. The WW doesn't want to do anything to work/save the M!! Cooperation is not found in her. She is what some authors refer to as the hard-hearted wife. No gentle/soft, nice-guy type of actions will draw back a wayward W. Tough love is required by the LBH, b/c of the disrespect his WW holds for him. Disrespect is the root of waywardness......and it's all aimed at how she sees her H being a man. Her negative, judgmental, unforgiving, & self-centered attitude builds the walls between her & the LBH.
The WAW, IMHO, doesn't have a selfish/hidden agenda when she wants out of the M. Depending on the reasons why she left, she is more likely to cooperate in reconciliation. She's not trying to act like a teenager, nor dress like one. And the big difference in the WAW is that her character doesn't change. Her values don't take a dive, just b/c she walks away from the M. Usually, the WAW will not forsake her children .......whereas the WW & MLCW have been known to do (not all do). The WAW usually has a H who has made her (and/or her children) life intolerable, and walking away seems to be the only option if he doesn't change. The WAW is usually more cooperative with the LBH (kids schedule, etc.). She is usually more about fairness, than a WW or MLCW. IMHO, it's b/c her mindset is not comparable to the WW & MLCW.
The MLCW has similar outward characteristics (dressing younger, acting like GGW, etc.) as the WW. She has anger, but it's not just her H. Unlike the WW, her issues are not about him. Something usually triggers fear in the MLC. It could be a recent tragedy, or something else that throws her into this fear, depression, & anger. The MLCW is usually afraid of something she doesn't want to face........such as getting old, death, or...... a hidden/unresolved issue she experienced in the past. That's why we can often connect some childhood trauma or abuse with the MLCW. We've seen cases of child abuse, abandonment, rape victims, etc., where they never received any therapy.......and then years later, something would trigger them into MLC. Generally, we see the MLCW become involved in an affair.
I think the same basic principles of DB are applicable, whichever category fits your W. With the WW, however, tougher love has to be shown....due to the issue being rooted in a lack of respect for her H.
Obviously, I said more about the WW than the others. This is the area I have personally experienced, and observed/studied the most for the past twelve years.
These are my opinions, and I am not trying to distort or override any of MWD's work. If you have studied the topic of MLC sufficiently and believe it describes your W, then it might be beneficial to join the MLC forum. However, I'm not trying to push you over there.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Guys, perimenopause is not a