I've read a TON of posts on here and having lots of ambivalent thoughts. I recognize deeply that I have NGS - passive-aggressiveness, covert contracts, validation from others, lack of conflict resolution, everything. It hasn't affected my professional life much and I don't think it's hindered my progress there, but it's very clearly led my WAW to a place of great frustration and a loss of respect. That breakdown of the trust between us I believe is what it's driving our upcoming S.
We haven't talked in too much depth about the mechanics of the actual S, other than her reciting things that I'm reading on here are very scripted - she's confused about what she wants, she needs space, and so on. I absolutely believe that she needs space but I get the sense that many veterans here would push back on the first point: if she were confused about what she wanted, she'd stay and dig in her heels as opposed to separating. Instead she is walking away and likely getting her ducks in a row, swimming into the deep end of the pool to see what the water is like. She may not be 100% sure if she wants to D, but she wants to S: now I'm left to wonder if the S is more about adjustment, or a sincere lack of clarity on her part. I don't want limbo, I don't want to be a Plan B - it is not productive, nor fair. But I also know I likely cannot confront her on this topic.
It's painful for me to absorb that (and I have to admit, there's a bit of misogyny/assume the worst from women in the subtext that I find troublesome) but the healthiest thing for me is likely to assume that it's over, learn to emotionally detach, and work on myself. These are no-risk things that I am doing to put myself in a better position regardless of her next move because I cannot control her or base my life around her.
GAL won't be much of a problem for me, but I'm having some trouble with 180s. A lot of her complaints historically have been that I've been self-centered, unwilling to truly hear her or understanding her positions, which led to her feeling like an unequal partner in the relationship. This played itself out a number of ways: in our finances, in our sex life, and in our domestic day-to-day. Doing a 180 here feels somewhat against principles though: how can I simultaneously lovingly detach, while also showing her that I value her partnership?
I am a little worried about cake eating on her part as well. She has stated that she prefers the general way we handle our finances to not change: still use joint accounts, and for me to help her with rent on her new place. I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with both, but more so on the latter. She is leaving me: why should I make that easy for her? She's talked to a lawyer about D, in her words to understand the economics of it. This certainly is a strike against her statement of what knowing what she wants, and a strike for this just being an intermediate step. But again, is this worth a confrontation? NGS tells me that it's not worth the conflict, DB tells me to be Alpha and stand my ground, but also not to pressure her or detach. Maybe I'm misunderstanding things.
What's frustrating for me about this is that she clearly sees me as someone who is emotionally fragile. This is certainly very painful for me right now, but I don't believe that to be true. I survived an abusive childhood to be an imperfect but well-liked, successful man. I guess the only thing I can do now is that show that, for myself, and let things happen as they come.
It made me think of a time where we had a relatively large fight - I was in the wrong, she caught me in a very dumb lie the details of which are not worth getting into - but when she said something along the lines of "I can't ever trust you, it's over", I literally did a 180 in the street and started walking in the other direction. This called her bluff and she ran to me, saying she was sorry she said that.
Given that and above maxim, wouldn't the logical continuation of that line of thinking be to serve *her* D papers as a consequence of her asking for a separation? It sounds risky as hell, but it's same principle, right?
It's not uncommon for LBS's to come up with similar thoughts, but the factor that you're not including is that in your earlier example, she was your loving wife and you were having an argument. In the later example she is a WAS and no longer wants to have ANYTHING to do with you. So if the two of you were walking along NOW arguing and you turned and walked the other direction, she would keep on walking and never look back. Her way of thinking has changed that much.
Unchien is right, don't do anything just to get a reaction out of your W. That is exactly what a covert contract is, which as you already pointed out is a NGS trait that you need to work to get rid of.
It made me think of a time where we had a relatively large fight - I was in the wrong, she caught me in a very dumb lie the details of which are not worth getting into - but when she said something along the lines of "I can't ever trust you, it's over", I literally did a 180 in the street and started walking in the other direction. This called her bluff and she ran to me, saying she was sorry she said that.
Given that and above maxim, wouldn't the logical continuation of that line of thinking be to serve *her* D papers as a consequence of her asking for a separation? It sounds risky as hell, but it's same principle, right?
It's not uncommon for LBS's to come up with similar thoughts, but the factor that you're not including is that in your earlier example, she was your loving wife and you were having an argument. In the later example she is a WAS and no longer wants to have ANYTHING to do with you. So if the two of you were walking along NOW arguing and you turned and walked the other direction, she would keep on walking and never look back. Her way of thinking has changed that much.
Unchien is right, don't do anything just to get a reaction out of your W. That is exactly what a covert contract is, which as you already pointed out is a NGS trait that you need to work to get rid of.
Fair enough. Thank you.
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
To be clear, I don't disagree at all that the #1 thing I should be doing (and am doing) is getting a life, working on myself, and letting her go. That is true agnostic of the situation. But I also feel like in the seven years we've spent together, I know her like the back of my hand, and if she was truly 100% done, she'd be done.
Yes we talk in absolutes here because to do other is to mind-read, and mind-reading will get you no where. After BD it is safest to assume that your spouse is 100% done and then to act accordingly. To not do that means you will sabotage you DBing efforts in the name of not realizing the seriousness of her desire to leave.
A few months back I wrote a long post about the thoughts, attitudes, and timing that leads up to BD. The problem for most LBSs is that things were going along pretty well until BD. Then BD hits and they think every thing changed. This is a misconception. The truth is that while you thought everything was going along well, behind the scenes she was unhappy and looking for an escape route LONG before BD. The only thing that changed on BD was your knowledge of how truly unhappy she was, and your knowledge of the fact that she has been looking for an exit. Usually that takes about a year before a WAW will verbalize that desire. It takes them a long time because they are not sure, and they don't want to hurt their LBH. But rest assured, she is more done than not, and to treat her as anything other than 100% done risks applying pressure and pursuit that will push her to 100% in no time.
If you need to believe she is less than 100% done to have hope, then believe it. As long as you are realistic that she is likely well over 90% done, like 98% or higher. WAWs typically do not initiate BD until they are that sure they are done.
In my sitch, I realized something had changed and I initiated BD. But even my case she was probably at 95% minimum of being sure she was done.
Don't delude yourself, the chances are you will be getting a D. DBing gives you the best chance at turning it around, but there are no guarantees.
Last edited by Steve85; 06/17/1902:54 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
I know this will surprise you if not shock you, but no, there aren't any situations "in the middle". People who come here have already been BD'd. Once a WAS reaches the point of BD, they are well and truly done with their spouse. They have been suffering in silence for months or years and planning their escape, and once they get up the nerve to BD they have basically transformed into someone else. Someone who doesn't like their spouse and may even hate or despise them. Someone who is more interested in themselves than in the thoughts, feelings and needs of others.
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But I also feel like in the seven years we've spent together, I know her like the back of my hand, and if she was truly 100% done, she'd be done.
You knew who she WAS, you don't know who she IS. A lot of LBS's struggle with this concept, they think they know their spouse better and that the advice given here is subject to personal modification to better fit their particular sitch. But the truth is WE know your wife better than YOU do. We know who she is NOW. And the person she is now is more than likely a stranger to you. A lot of LBS's say it's like "invasion of the bodysnatchers" has happened and a different personality has been transplanted into their old spouse's body. That's not far off the mark. Trust DB'ing, don't assume you know a better way or you may find yourself in even deeper.
One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
I know this will surprise you if not shock you, but no, there aren't any situations "in the middle". People who come here have already been BD'd. Once a WAS reaches the point of BD, they are well and truly done with their spouse. They have been suffering in silence for months or years and planning their escape, and once they get up the nerve to BD they have basically transformed into someone else. Someone who doesn't like their spouse and may even hate or despise them. Someone who is more interested in themselves than in the thoughts, feelings and needs of others.
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But I also feel like in the seven years we've spent together, I know her like the back of my hand, and if she was truly 100% done, she'd be done.
You knew who she WAS, you don't know who she IS. A lot of LBS's struggle with this concept, they think they know their spouse better and that the advice given here is subject to personal modification to better fit their particular sitch. But the truth is WE know your wife better than YOU do. We know who she is NOW. And the person she is now is more than likely a stranger to you. A lot of LBS's say it's like "invasion of the bodysnatchers" has happened and a different personality has been transplanted into their old spouse's body. That's not far off the mark. Trust DB'ing, don't assume you know a better way or you may find yourself in even deeper.
OK. I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'm just reading too much into things. She texts me first, pretty much every day. She went on a trip, she brings me back a small gift. I come home, she's made me fresh squeezed juice. I see her going about her day, she's obviously troubled and looking upset.
But I get your point. I can't mind read. I can't assume anything other than what is in front of me, which is that by this time next week, she will be moved in to her new place and we will be separated. The truth hurts.
OK. I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'm just reading too much into things. She texts me first, pretty much every day. She went on a trip, she brings me back a small gift. I come home, she's made me fresh squeezed juice. I see her going about her day, she's obviously troubled and looking upset.
But I get your point. I can't mind read. I can't assume anything other than what is in front of me, which is that by this time next week, she will be moved in to her new place and we will be separated. The truth hurts.
All done out of guilt for what she is doing to you. We see this a lot, where a WAW/WW will become nicer to the LBH has their departure is closer. It is called "not burning bridges", and "making sure plan B is firmly in place". This is why DBing is so effective. When she sees you moving on she more than likely will panic. You are her safety net, DBing will show her she is about to jump onto a trapeze without her safety net to catch her.
GAL like madman. Detach (make sure you know what this really means.) Then show her your 180s at every chance you get (just don't go out of your way to make opportunities). NO EXPECTATIONS!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
OK. I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'm just reading too much into things. She texts me first, pretty much every day. She went on a trip, she brings me back a small gift. I come home, she's made me fresh squeezed juice. I see her going about her day, she's obviously troubled and looking upset.
But I get your point. I can't mind read. I can't assume anything other than what is in front of me, which is that by this time next week, she will be moved in to her new place and we will be separated. The truth hurts.
All done out of guilt for what she is doing to you. We see this a lot, where a WAW/WW will become nicer to the LBH has their departure is closer. It is called "not burning bridges", and "making sure plan B is firmly in place". This is why DBing is so effective. When she sees you moving on she more than likely will panic. You are her safety net, DBing will show her she is about to jump onto a trapeze without her safety net to catch her.
GAL like madman. Detach (make sure you know what this really means.) Then show her your 180s at every chance you get (just don't go out of your way to make opportunities). NO EXPECTATIONS!
Fair enough. Denial is a powerful thing.
I know in my head that everything I'm learning here is true. I need to use this time to improve myself, GAL, and become a better man regardless of what happens. This will not defeat me. It will make me stronger, and a better partner.
I will study as much as I can about detachment as a to-do. One thing I distinctly recall is that back in my college days, when the girl I thought was the one at the time (amazing how things change!) and I broke up, I went completely radio silent and licked my wounds. Over time, she reached out multiple times over to check-in, see how I was doing, and even invite me to hang out. By that time I was over it and moved on, but the power of that detachment made her curious and turned the power dynamic to the other side.
Any specific tips on detachment are greatly appreciated. Separation is in a few days, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I will study as much as I can about detachment as a to-do. One thing I distinctly recall is that back in my college days, when the girl I thought was the one at the time (amazing how things change!) and I broke up, I went completely radio silent and licked my wounds. Over time, she reached out multiple times over to check-in, see how I was doing, and even invite me to hang out. By that time I was over it and moved on, but the power of that detachment made her curious and turned the power dynamic to the other side.
This is seriously true, and statistically the best way. There's a website out there that goes super in depth about it called exgfrecovery. I found it very interesting.
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One thing that troubles me: a lot of the conversation on here seems to be very black and white, as if it's either "she's in love and everything is great" or "she no longer wants to have anything to do with you". Surely there exists a lot of situations in the middle, no?
I don't understand what Steve85 and AS were saying as far as things being black and white. When my W, Steve's W, or Blu's H came back and decided to patch things up wtih us it wasn't like we jumped back into this wonderful world where we were in love and everything is great like you said. So again I'm not sure what they meant. In my opinion, most relationships are somewhere in between. The 5LL's author stated that the average in love experience lasts less than 2 years.
Is your W conflicted? Clearly. Is she still doing nice things for you? Yes. Maybe out of habit, love, or wanting to keep you as plan B like they mentioned. Hard to say. You are there, you've seen her, and if she looksshaky emotionally than you probably are right. We just don't know what her biggest concerns are.
A lot of people here say the walkaway spouse has to hit "rock bottom", but Sandi said it wasn't rock bottom for her, rather it was "just enough" pain to make her change. Everyone has a different tolerance, so to speak.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I don't understand what Steve85 and AS were saying as far as things being black and white. When my W, Steve's W, or Blu's H came back and decided to patch things up wtih us it wasn't like we jumped back into this wonderful world where we were in love and everything is great like you said. So again I'm not sure what they meant.
Well I don't think I said anything was black and white, but what I was referring to is that once a WAS goes rogue, she's all-out of the M. She's not half in and half out which I think is what Steve was asking. BEFORE BD is when they are half in and half out, they may be like that for months or even years. They are hanging on, hoping that something will change, silently suffering. When they finally decide enough is enough and they drop the bomb, then they are all out. That's what DB'ing is specifically about- dealing with a spouse that is completely checked out of the M.
And that's one thing everyone that comes here has in common, their spouse is over, done, kaput. But as I also like to point out, that is how they feel right now. That can and will change in months or years. But initially after BD there is zero chance that pursuit or begging/ pleading/ negotiating/ gift-buying/ etc. will bring them back. Once they are done, then you're dealing with a consistent recipe of giving them time and space while working on yourself, there's just no other way that works.
^^^That's what I was talking about. A lot of LBS's think they can mix a cocktail of DB'ing and other techniques and their own brand of pursuing because they think they know their wives better than anyone else and that their version is what will work for her. I can relate to that, I thought the same thing. But any of us that have been down this road can tell you, we were wrong! I was wrong! The woman I knew 25 years was no longer who I was dealing with, and the people here who were counseling me were SPOT ON in their suggestions whereas the stuff I tried early on just backfired big time. A lot of us vets are on here because we are hoping others can hear what we did right and what we did wrong, and hopefully they will learn from us and just do the right stuff
