Story and Symptoms of WAW/MLC Part 3

[IHCLACS]

LH19 What gives you the impression from my post that I am bitter and vengeful and "blocking" every move my W makes? Ok yeah you have a point. I will be benefiting from sale of home. As far as what most aren't seeing here from what I haven't been posting is the subtle manipulation. Last weekend W invited me out to BIL and her nieces rec event on her weekend with S1. Now I see why. She probably wanted to see if BIL could speak with me in arranging cooperation and persuasion into us doing the projects together, and having me watching S1 on her time last weekend. Otherwise it probably would have been crickets hearing anything from her. It's gotten to the point where the only time I hear from her through text message or phone call is when she wants or needs something. And only for that reason so I had to put a stop to it.

Steve Im actually looking forward to spending time with S1 this weekend since its Father's Day. I just have to plan out events to keep us both out of the house and active until BIL's leave. Don't get me wrong, me and BIL's get along just fine. I just don't want to be present and get roped into doing something W wants me to do for her own benefit and gain. I don't want to sell the house I don't want to get divorce I don't want my marriage to fail. I don't want to split the family. But if she is going to keep pushing her narrative and agenda. Then I sure as hell am not going to help it along. She can figure it out on her own. So yes I am done. Im staying more mentally and emotionally sane that way, and I'm just fine with my decision. Not being punitive. Just looking for advice to spend time out of the house until I can return to it. Maybe I'll take him to a car show or two? He likes the hot rods.

I'm just looking for advice on how to handle time with S1 out of the house since I can only do so much with him, and have so many places to go. As far as the road paved home and "the million potholes" If W considers me not finishing some of the small stuff around the house, as a big intentional FU to her, well I consider her selling the house an even bigger one to me. We have had this discussion time and time again that it was never intentional of me. It was just due to work, travelling, and placating to all of her social affairs on a whim when we were on good terms, instead of getting stuff done as I intended to. Admittingly I do have my share of excuses as well, valid, but still excuses.

Now I know I should have finished these things, the split custody and work has added more burden to it. (Yeah I know excuses excuses.) But really? If your SO was selling your home without your approval because of THEIR PERSONAL DEBT THAT THEY INCURRED IN THE MARRIAGE, that they wanted out of the M, and you couldn't afford to keep the M home on your own income and refinance, and you're credit was poor because of W pulling multiple loans to keep things afloat BECAUSE OF THEIR DEBTS, and still jointly being able to swing the mortgage. Would you have any incentive other than sale profit to help them get closer to their goal of leaving and selling?

Not being vengeful at all, but yeah im a little bitter. Who wouldn't be in any of our circumstances? Im not blocking any moves she makes whatsoever. I'm just not going to help her along with it.That's all. What I can't seem to figure out is everyone around here advocates the whole " You fired me as your H." mantra. They want to leave, Let them figure it out ideology. But then when I do, I'm the one who gets backlash for it.

I could use a bit of an attitude adjustment throughout the whole situation. I'm not being punitive or vengeful about it let's make that clear. I am glad however you pointed out another way of looking at it as far as BIL's helping W with projects and sale so both can benefit. I know what can feel like my brother-in-law's are pissing in my own territory, and I need to put those personal feelings aside. I know their true intentions on that cuz they're good guys just helping their sister. I guess I'm just angry at myself for not finishing these things in the first place, and now someone else is coming in to help with it. It's difficult not to be a little resentful about it.

I know the sale if the M home is inevitable, and most likely D is inevitable, and I've accepted that, and am preparing for such. I just have no desire to help it along.

Steve85. Its fairly easy to get defensive in these situations, I'm trying to work on it, getting much better externally presenting myself while handling it, but internally yeah the hurt is still there. Not over W but over circumstanses if that makes any sense. I honestly don't feel much of anything for W anymore. I've been too hurt to care anymore. Its just neutral, carry on with my day, business as usual. The less that is said the better. I just want to get through this splitting process and into a new life as scary and as unknown as it is. I have no desire to save my marriage anymore. It's not that I feel as if someone has wronged me they're doing what they need to do what's best for them. Well then I need to do what's best for me. If that means taking my son out for the entire day, or avoiding her and BIL's then that's what I'm going to do anyways.

[LH19]

IH,

You better get used to it because your son is 1. My ex texted me last night and guess why? Because she wanted something. Me to buy my son shorts. If she could get the kids Sunday for awhile to see papa and if I had any questions for her to ask my son’s teacher she is meeting with tomorrow. 90% of your communication will be because someone want something from the other. The other 10% is going to be FYI communications. You’re unlikely to get any “what can I do for you texts”.

I giving you my opinion that’s all I can give. Not only are you bitter about your W you’re bitter against pretty much all women in general. When two people are happily married they don’t get divorced. Those are the facts. Accept that this is how she feels now and that she feels what she’s doing is best for her.

Learn and grow from your mistakes. That’s the only way we get better.

[SteveLW]

IH, you did say you are in IC, right?

I am seeing a lot of wandering thoughts, some seem contradictory, and it makes me wonder if you've taken the time to organize your thoughts. For instance: "I don't want to get divorce I don't want my marriage to fail. I don't want to split the family." then later: "I have no desire to save my marriage anymore."

Those are not congruent. Either you don't want to get a D, for the marriage to fail or you no longer want to save it. It as if when you typed the paragraph about not wanting to be there this weekend, your feelings had you type that you didn't want a D. Then later in your post your were talking about how you are trying to deal with your W's behavior and felt that you DID want a D. Wanting to save your marriage is congruent with not wanting a D. Not wanting to save your marriage is congruent with wanting a D. Those two cannot be mixed up. And if they are mixed up in your head you have to deal with that in IC.

However, if you pressed me for what I think? I think you do not WANT a D, but you are essentially saying you don't want to put in the work to save your marriage. That is a different thing, and it means that you are sitting down and letting the world bring to you whatever it brings whether you want it or not. And the risk you run here is 10-15-20 years from now looking back and thinking: "If I had only done this....maybe...." or "If I had behaved this way....maybe..." Take from my experience: that is not a pleasant to be in your own head! Further, your son is 1. In 12-19 years you will be answering similar questions from him. You want to be able to look him in the eye, and tell him "I did everything in my power to not get a D, but it wasn't possible." (Notice, you don't need to point the finger at your W, but let him know that it wasn't in your power to prevent.)

IH, do yourself. Your son. Your future W (whether that is your current W or a new one). Do everyone involved a huge favor and deal with this properly. And that is through finding a good IC, and dealing with all of your emotions and feelings around this. My guess is that you are a bit of a control freak. And this whole thing being so out of your control has you spinning, and it is an unnatural feeling not to be able to find a way to control it. For instance, your W wants to sell the house (the reasons do not matter). You could have made it be known that you weren't in agreement with that, but you could have finished the projects in the name of doing what was best for you. It is your house too. You stand to profit from its sale as well. I moved last year. We bought a new house. Then we prepared the old house for the market. It was a weird dynamic as I got things done around the old house it hit me that if had done many of those things before, neither one of us would probably have wanted to move! Who knows what effect finishing the projects may have had on your WAW. Maybe none. Or maybe she would have started questioning. Now you will never know.

IH, we don't beat you up here because we don't care. I don't type out a response like this because I want to see you hurting, and angry and upset. I do it because having been a guy in your shoes I know how hard all this is. It is difficult to cut through the pain, the hurt, the bitterness, the lack of control, and make decisions that are right and for the best. And so many of here, who can objectively comment on other's sitches, try to help the LBS see the forest through the trees.

Please work this out in IC. I've never heard anyone that got into therapy look back and go "wow, I really regret doing IC". However, I have many people lament that they should have done IC a long time ago. Or they should have tried it when they have not. One of the things i've learned through experience is that NOT attempting something always leaves you with regrets, it turns out to be a negative learning experience. At least attempting something, even if it fails, is always a positive learning experience.

[MLCxH]

IH, I have to agree with Steve and LH. I understand why you are bitter and angry and agree it totally [censored]. But you need to understand this bitterness is only making the situation more toxic with her. Your wife has made up her mind that she wants a D. She is in control of this and you feel powerless. I suspect you are attempting to get back some degree of control with your actions. But you need to drop the rope and you need to do that for your own good.

I know it is hard and it hurts but GAL and live your own life. When you make a decision only because you don't want to do something to help her you are letting her influence your life. You need to do what you think is right and not because you don't want to do something that will end up helping her or not.

[AnotherStander]

I just have to plan out events to keep us both out of the house and active until BIL's leave. Don't get me wrong, me and BIL's get along just fine. I just don't want to be present and get roped into doing something W wants me to do for her own benefit and gain. I don't want to sell the house I don't want to get divorce I don't want my marriage to fail. I don't want to split the family.

IH, so your BIL's are coming over to do some home repairs that you said you would do and bought the materials for but never did? If so, then why do you think that's W "roping you into" anything? Sounds like she's given up on depending on you to do it, so she's making it happen on her own. It sounds like you're saying if they make the repairs then it allows her to sell the home for more, thus benefiting her. But that benefits you as well, and in the same amount/ percentage it benefits her, right? As for not wanting the marriage to fail, it already did. And not wanting to split the family, it already is. Accept those things and move on. Maybe you can build a new R with her later, but for now you have to let her go and focus on you.

But if she is going to keep pushing her narrative and agenda. Then I sure as hell am not going to help it along. She can figure it out on her own.

It sounds like she's doing exactly that, and it's giving your heartburn. I don't see it as her pushing an agenda, she's just trying to get things done that you're not following through on.

Just looking for advice to spend time out of the house until I can return to it. Maybe I'll take him to a car show or two? He likes the hot rods.

He's 1? I wouldn't spend too much time at a car show, I doubt it'll hold his interest for long. Plus car owners tend to get real nervous when a toddler is around their price-and-joy. I would suggest something more age-appropriate like a zoo, water park, swimming, science museum, even a local park to hang out. He can touch and enjoy things without constantly hearing "don't touch that!" like he would at a car show.

If W considers me not finishing some of the small stuff around the house, as a big intentional FU to her, well I consider her selling the house an even bigger one to me.

I agree with LH, your posts just in general have this very angry, bitter tone and this "I'm going to get even with her" attitude. Do you think that is helping you grow as a person?

Now I know I should have finished these things, the split custody and work has added more burden to it. (Yeah I know excuses excuses.) But really? If your SO was selling your home without your approval because of THEIR PERSONAL DEBT THAT THEY INCURRED IN THE MARRIAGE, that they wanted out of the M, and you couldn't afford to keep the M home on your own income and refinance, and you're credit was poor because of W pulling multiple loans to keep things afloat BECAUSE OF THEIR DEBTS, and still jointly being able to swing the mortgage. Would you have any incentive other than sale profit to help them get closer to their goal of leaving and selling?

You can't afford to live in the house, so it's going to have to be sold sooner or later regardless. So yes, your incentive is to maximize the value of the home so you can get the most out of it possible when it sells. You're thinking emotionally and not rationally, and I get that, but you've got to work on that detachment.

I know their true intentions on that cuz they're good guys just helping their sister. I guess I'm just angry at myself for not finishing these things in the first place, and now someone else is coming in to help with it.

Aha, now that sounds like you're getting to the root of things!

I know the sale if the M home is inevitable, and most likely D is inevitable, and I've accepted that, and am preparing for such. I just have no desire to help it along.

I don't see how repairing the home or helping your BIL's repair it are helping the D along. I think you're drawing causalities that aren't really there.

I just want to get through this splitting process and into a new life as scary and as unknown as it is. I have no desire to save my marriage anymore.

Really. Then why all the backlash against some home repairs.

[IHCLACS]

AS and LH19 thanks for helping me look at it from a different perspective. Maybe I do need to put my hurt and pride aside and help facilitate cooperation with W and BIL in the projects and sale. If for anything as an example to my S1 and myself. Finish what you start. Same goes for myself. Still not looking forward to the awkwardness of BIL coming in to "bail me out" in a sense. Don't want to talk to them about their sister. I could have wrapped this stuff up months ago. Im just not motivated with all that is going on, and I do need to own that. Its really hard not to be defensive in my own mind about all this. I'm trying not to outwardly show it. These are the reasons why I've set my personal boundaries not to get into any emotionally charged conversations with W any longer. She is going to do what she wants to do to achieve her end goal. So why do I need to partake in it? I'm sure it's coming off me as the silent treatment and arrogance though. I just don't want to engage and anything emotional right now. That's why I had her only send request through email, but also because of constant communication issues. I need to get a hold of it internally a little more, deal with it, and choose the logical path forward in getting things done.

[IHCLACS]

I feel weird today. I feel like im 16 again. Mentally and physically. Must be the weight im dropping. I've had 5 people this week comment on it, funny thing is I'm eating crap and not even exercising. Must be the frequencies. Been listening to some metal from my youth. Angst, fire, passion, and melody. Sometimes i feel that my music is all I have that keeps me sane. My boy enjoyed the park and the car show today. He lasted about an hour before he lost interest though.

[IHCLACS]

Think its time i finally learn how to play that guitar. Im done with everyday life in general. Time to return to the music. The only thing that will ever speak to my soul more than any woman, or any possession or hobby on this earth.
.

[AnotherStander]

AS and LH19 thanks for helping me look at it from a different perspective. Maybe I do need to put my hurt and pride aside and help facilitate cooperation with W and BIL in the projects and sale. If for anything as an example to my S1 and myself. Finish what you start. Same goes for myself. Still not looking forward to the awkwardness of BIL coming in to "bail me out" in a sense. Don't want to talk to them about their sister. I could have wrapped this stuff up months ago. Im just not motivated with all that is going on, and I do need to own that. Its really hard not to be defensive in my own mind about all this. I'm trying not to outwardly show it. These are the reasons why I've set my personal boundaries not to get into any emotionally charged conversations with W any longer. She is going to do what she wants to do to achieve her end goal. So why do I need to partake in it? I'm sure it's coming off me as the silent treatment and arrogance though. I just don't want to engage and anything emotional right now. That's why I had her only send request through email, but also because of constant communication issues. I need to get a hold of it internally a little more, deal with it, and choose the logical path forward in getting things done.

YEEEEESSSSS! That is an excellent post right there! Good introspection!

Think its time i finally learn how to play that guitar. Im done with everyday life in general. Time to return to the music. The only thing that will ever speak to my soul more than any woman, or any possession or hobby on this earth.

Great. It helps to find something you're passionate about and can really bury yourself in.

[IHCLACS]

W has stated before that maybe the completion of these things maybe would have made a difference, but her actions say otherwise. Either way she is selling partly for her own financial reasons, and partly because of us. My W is not initiating divorce, but seperation. I am initiating divorce, but like everything else am lacking the follow through on it, even though I am resigned to her and my situation. My experience is the latter Steve85. I am resigned. It is a place of resignation. Am I making things more toxic by being avoidant? Yeah in a way. Silently...But yeah, but its better than making things more toxic by having R talks, rehashing misunderstandings over and over etc. Getting emotionally frustrated. I just decided to avoid all situations and talks with W all together now other than logistics, house, and son, and I need it all in writing by email because of our different perceptions and communication issues. I think that most of us here in our situations have vicariously tried for months to be friendly, positive, and upbeat in our interactions with WAS. I just don't go out of my way for it now. I'm not the one who created this silent distant tension. I'm not the one who's going to solve it anymore. Everyone here said to pull back, so that's what I am doing. I'm not going to go out of my way to be friendly to make wife feel better and less guilty about what she's doing, just to maintain amicable status with no chance of R. I'm still positive friendly, but again, I just won't go out of my way for it with the interactions. We don't even say good morning anymore. Whether I created that dynamic of distance, or whether she created it? I'm fine with that at this time. At least I know where I stand. I'm not helping or hurting the situation. Yeah I am a little bit bitter for a lot of different reasons. My S1 will never get to know our awesome yard, swim in our pool again, run around at our backyard family barbecues. Bake a pizza with his dad. Sit by a relaxing fire with us. All the things that I previously worked hard for to build up to this moment that was all for nothing. But he will have other wonderful experiences with his mom dad, cousins and family. Just seperated that's all.

The reason why I am upset with women in general is because I don't think most of them really understand how divorce affects a man and his ego. I would like to think most men feel their failures in a different way and on different fronts. I honestly believe that they don't really care what men really go through in all of this. ( Well alright maybe they care but they won't take the initiative actually figure it out, express, or explore it in great lengths.) They're just concerned with themselves, their children, their friends and family, and coping with everyday life the best they can, and achieving happiness. I think men feel their failures at the marital romantical level, at the family level, the sexual level, at the financial level (Can you say alimony and child support?) 
and to some extent at the fatherly level.
(I sure as hell am not going to make that mistake.) Men have been trying to figure out what women want for years and Freud died pursuing it. The honest truth is they don't even know what they want. But the point that I'm trying to illustrate is that men are always trying to attempt the effort to figure it out, and figure them out, whether it be marriage, dating, or pickup. We always seem to be behind the curve of the current times of what their wants needs and demands are from relationships. I find it ironic that some women say that they want a traditional guy who opens doors, pulls out chairs, displays chivilary, is a provisionist, handsome, entertaining, has drive and purpose, etc, but in the same hand, they don't need a man, they are strong and independent, and make every attempt to demasculate and $hit test a man within a relationship and marriage. Men of today have become promiscuous dogs, or lacking intestinal fortitude, with no respect for women in general, treating them as disposable. Women are getting married later well past their fertile years, because of the pursuit of their careers, due to the current economic model, they get married later and have children in their mid 30's, finally land a man, have a few kids to satisfy their maternal needs and desires, then 50% of them divorce good men because they are unhappy and they don't know why. In turn they treat good men as disposable as well The vicious cycle continues. Men disrespect women because of their societal behaviors of today, and women disrespect men because of their behaviors as well. Personally I think it's a bunch of unintended narcissism in society propagated by the culture and the media. Using man's and woman's nature against them. Men are hardwired for logic, aggression, competitiveness, Excellency,  Sexual Pursuit, reproduction, etc. Women are hardwired for feelings, intuitions, nurturing, care taking, and self-preservation. Hence the abundance of vanity. I'm not saying that men can't be vain I'm just saying that it's more prevalent with women because of their nature. Just like it's more prevalent for men to be idealistic and sexually aggressive. I know this is more of a western societal problem of value and culture then it is between the sexes. But I wanted to distinguish the differences. We are being pitted off against one another and most don't even realize it.

My POV of every woman going through this D/S/WAW/MLC or whatever  they are unhappy, and they aren't even truly sure why. But the H is always the majority of the cause of it. You vets are familiar with the stats everyday. 70% of D are initiated by women due to their unhappiness. I seriously have a problem with the ideological values that western women have today. They want too much, they want to have it all, what you do for them and your family sacrificially will never satisfy them. They are never satisfied with their careers, their pursuits in life, their marriages, their husbands, their places in life. who they are, where they want to be,. All the things they were told to chase by society that they would think would make them happy. The degrees, the career, the social status, the self worth and achievement. Not that there's anything wrong with any of these things. But they wonder why they're confused, mixed up, burnt out, deprived exhausted, tired, all while having to be a Mom and a W. I think women are much better equipped to multitask than men. But emotionally they cannot handle all the stresses and pressures of current everyday life in its current form. It goes against their nature. But they definitely get much better at it and being emotionally stronger as a result of experience, but at the cost of their happiness and family all while trying to pursue such.  Economics is also plays a role in the traditional gender role reversals. Then they read books while going through D on self help to help them rebuild their sense of self, all the while these well intentioned but misinformed authors ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE DIVORCE GOING FROM SURVIVING TO THRIVING.  People wonder why I am so upset at feminism. It sells hopes and dreams, but never mentions or weighs the actual cost and long term costs or consequences. I sometimes feel like nothing more than a sperm donor. She's got the kid, her career, and she's going to profit from selling our home and breaking up our family. (I know there's a lot more to it than just that I know that she's hurting too.) I'm trying to just accept things for what they are rather than being angry at the way they are. Let me ask all of you something? Since I have gone through great lengths to explain and research all this, not only bevause I want to be more aware, informed, and solve a societal problem, and apply it torwards a personal problem. If all these things didn't have some truth to them? Then why would MWD form a "script" or theoretical and clinical principles as a result of seeing and learning what she has seen through thousands of counseling sessions? She knows what's up in society and marriage. If she didn't see all the things I'm describing then there wouldn't be any acronyms, scripts, or theories for this board to follow. Im glad her bias is pro marriage. Im glad I've found her works and you guys. I'm glad I'm aware of all these societal issues with the institution of marriage. But sadly I believe it's an uphill battle to change it, whether it be on a societal or personal level. Our culture has been deceived into becoming self empowering narcissists that follow whimsical desires in the moment, rather than thinking about the long-term effects of current human behavior from cradle to grave on our current model.

Maybe I should just put my focus into my own life, instead of constantly focusing on society's issues? It's just that I'm a reader and an intellect. I get Tunnel Vision on subject to interest me for months, and since this has been my current problem I want to learn more about it and why. I know I'm probably driving myself crazy as a result of it, but nonetheless I'm still a little wiser for it. I've been trying to study relationship since I was 16 and now 38. Now that I've encountered yet another failure I want to learn from it.

I can't change my past mistakes, I can only learn from them. Taking action in learning from them is going to take me a lot of time and space to process these emotions and thoughts in order to take appropriate actions . I stopped beating myself over the head with the what if's months ago, as I cannot change the past, but improve from it. I've let go of any control. Control is an illusion.

Here's something silly that just happened at me right before I wrote this yesterday. It was another emotional rollercoaster moment with no logical reason. I put my son down for his afternoon nap. I was listening to you tube and fell asleep myself. I ended a 15 min. dream where I was in my parents kitchen and my mother and father were there in their 40s. I was 25 in dream. (Father actually deceased 7 years and mother 75) I asked them if I can drink the Mountain Dew at the back of the refrigerator. I went to go look at the expiration date and it said it was from 1991. For some reason I found it so comical I fell on the floor laughing, and parents were laughing too.
Then I woke up. I was good for a few moments, then started crying because I realized I was back in reality. My dreams are very vivid and emotional. I've had a lot of dreams of ex's and people that were out of my life for many years, as well as family members over the years, that leaves me very emotional until I snap back into reality after 20 minutes of being awake. I have a handful full of dreams a year about my father every time I wake up crying. I miss him, and I know I can never fill his shoes in some sense, but in others I can. Myself or my brothers never had a very close relationship with my father. He was a pain in the a$$ to live with as he got older, grumpier and more ressigned after he was gone. The funny thing is my brothers and I realized after he was gone that we could never fill his shoes no matter how hard we tried. When we were little he was like a god to us. We got older we want to be nothing like him. As I got older, a lot of his characteristics came out in me as I got married, and eventually had a child of my own, some of those traditional characteristics led to the downfall of my M in my wife's perception. I wasn't treating her as an "equal" I always agreed that a marriage should be an equal partnership, but men and women are not equals. Just dfifferent. What's interesting about all these dissolutions of M and experiences, as Freudian as it sounds, we revert back to a childlike state, frombour R with family members, and our coping mechanisms that we learned from them. My wife is also dealing with childhood like issues with the relations of her father who has dementia now, that he was a very mild alcoholic to deal with his anxiety from Vietnam, and was emotionally unavailable to his children. But still funny and upbeat none the less. Ironically my FIL treatment from his own father, who was according to my W, was slightly disapproving. My FIL was more scared of coming home to his father than he was being in Vietnam .Now I know why when my father-in-law was in his right mind was always seeking approval and so was my wife. She was a people pleaser. I think she learned it from him. I guess you could say some parts of me are oppositional defiance being raised in the environment I was raised in. My family and I are very resistant to change in a societal sense in anything past the 1980's. That was our peak as a family and we like to retain those Traditional Values despite what is going on in the world today. My wife was also raised in a traditional sense. But I also think modern ideologies and feminism has had an influence on her as well. She wants the traditional benefits of yesteryear and wants to stay home with our son, but also believes and thinks the way some millennials think today on certain things, topics, etc, but not all. This is why we could never be a united front in raising our son. I don't think she respects men, despite having good brothers and a good father. It's hard for me to respect most women, because they are so susceptible to any kind of change that is being pushed out there by any source of media. She wanted me to measure up to her degrees with her pursuits and higher education to support a family. I'm a Tradesman and I make decent money.  she makes more than I do because she is a teacher and a specialist. But I have significantly less debt than her. Like $85,000 less. So who is right? Who resents who for not meeting their expectations of someone else?

Hi Steve85. Those are some great examples of friendships, from an adult perspective, and a teen perspective of how we can neglect friendships and non romantic relationships that we actually treasure, because of our own personal issues, desires for what we think we want and need. It actually made me see a timeline of my life in relation to what you are saying. I remember in HS I only had a handful of friends at 14. My brother who was 10 years older said to me. Most but not all will disappear after H.S. and he was right. I developed having more friends as I moved up the ranks in HS. But they all fell off the face of the earth shortly after I graduated. I still retain one good friend since kindergarten, who I have just a few things in common with. He is a good thoughtful friend, who always goes out of his way, and I need to be a little more reciprocal with that, as my own relationships, personal agendas, life, etc  throughout the years, have somewhat interfered with that.

I think friendships old and new do change over time as we change and grow. That they are always fluid. Because we are always growing, as some friendships stop serving us, and some still do, and some develop into new ones. Just like a marriage in a sense. It could go either way. We are socially complex humans.

Coming back around to the men vs. women thing Steve. Again I don't think either is superior. We are supposed to compliment one another. I'm just saying. Things like different lines of thinking as individuals, preferences, differencrs between the sexes, there are so many variables to make a successful romantical relationship, its a wonder to me how men and women get together, get married, reproduce, and sustain longevity in the first place?

I'm simply exploring the differences in psychology between men and women, and I find women to be significantly more complex in today's society in the West.

What do most men want in general? A good supportive loving companion to have fun and grow old with. A hot meal, regular sex, a little adventure, and a peaceful life of not constantly being nagged, or living up to unreasonable expectations, some forgiveness, equal effort, and patience for a H &W mistakes. A woman is entirely more complex. They want to be emotionally satisfied, entertained, prosperous in their career by their own volition, merit and effort, balanced time for family, self and relaxation, a H that is more successful provisionally than herself, stability, 6 pack, 6 figures, and 6 feet tall, I could go on and on. You could meet all those requirements, and according to statistics 50% of those marriages are happy, and the other are still unhappy, whether it be with their marriages, or just with themselves and their lives. I'm sure men do this too, to be fair, hence the MLC sports car, motorcycle, fast women, etc.... I just think women are more prone to it and its independant suggestive model for several reasons in our current model of society and social dynamics that they can "have it all." That they are strong, capable. That they don't need a man. That they can be happy by finding their inner voice, inner intuition, and inner purpose. Again there are nothing wrong with these things in a healthy balance of self improvement, and understanding how the world actually works. If you look at the mindset of women from 50 60 70 years ago from the greatest generation to the baby boomers. They better understood themselves and real life situations. Life was so much simpler. They were more patient and forgiving, more practical, and more realistic. I think feminism although useful in professional development, but on a personal level, has sold women a good line of BS of what they want and need for their "happiness" from all different levels of media. They are constantly told and taught the fantasy of ronanticism through reality tv shows like the bachelor, Disney characters, movies, and magazines. How how to thrive after divorce. How to be happy, how to empower themselves.

I'm really trying to be fair here. There is a serious problem in our culture with maturity, development, coping skills, relationships, and marriage. Everything is very egalitarian, but nature tells us otherwise.

Men just as much as women in general have become equally promiscuous, self entitled, delusional, selfish, pre occupied with too many options, too much confusion, gender roles, household roles, provisional roles, united front child rearing roles, etc.

Sorry if I'm all over the place with my thoughts. All the time I spend thinking about these things I probably could be living a more fruitful life. But maybe I need to figure them out in order to do so?