Help! Confusing Mixed Signals

[JayR1964]

Damn Steve85, this is all really great advice! I feel better just having read it.

On the first point, it feels like if I make things difficult, that obviously pisses her off, but it also complicates my life and that of my kids. It takes a lot of effort to be resistant. I’m trying to find the right balance, but it’s hard. I guess I’m not truly certain about what is “best for me and worthy of respect.”

Also, how do I reconcile my need to establish boundaries with the guidance to listen and validate? I can validate all day, but at some point, especially with my boundaries, I feel like telling her she can f@#k off! That’s also how I feel I can retain some self respect. I’ll continue to avoid R discussions as much as possible nonetheless.

I’m very much looking forward to DBing more consistently, so I can stop/slow the ups and downs. I’m still working on GAL, with some success. I’ve been meeting new people, especially women with whom I I have fun, and that makes me feel so much less focused on the crap. It also reminds me of who I was before the MR.

Welcome your thoughts again, as always.

[SteveLW]

I would avoid meeting women right now. It almost always leads to more problems. First you aren't emotionally ready to be with someone new. You have too much emotional baggage with your WW right now. Second, fighting fire with fire just creates more fire. I know that LBHs often go looking for a self-esteem boost from other women, but it a bandaid on a gaping wound. It is temporary relief. There have been many other posters here that have tried it and have been worse off for it. Learn from the mistakes of others.

Go read the boundaries thread. So many posters get boundaries wrong. They think means ultimatums. And they use them to try to exert control. Both of those things will blow up in your face. Backfire. And then make you look weak when you do not follow through. And most LBSs are not willing to follow through. They are like parents that keep saying "don't do that or else!" And then when the kid goes ahead and does it there is no "or else".

So focus on what you can control...YOU! GAL needs to be ramped up. You need to work on detachment. And you have plenty of 180s to make (stop trying to control, stop watching her like a hawk, I'd even consider stopping the swapping into and out of the guest house, take back the mbr fulltime and tell her she is welcome to sleep where she wants).

JayR, you can do this......patience and self control...................

[JayR1964]

I've been detaching quite a bit and really avoiding all R discussions, except to reiterate that I am not going around spreading lies about my W to anyone, nor am I am claiming that she is crazy or trying to abandon our children, since she is not. I have also said that I would mostly be staying in our house and not using the other house, but she is welcome to stay wherever she wants. I am basically being courteous, but not her "friend".

She is becoming more and more agitated and angry. She is also saying things like the following:

"Well, now I am certain that our M is really over, and I will not change my mind."
"You need to understand that I am done and accept that we will never be together again. You need to stop the manipulation so we can find a solution in our D or S that will care for the kids."
"I can't be married to someone who lies about me and acts like I am mentally unstable while pretending he isn't acting that way."
"By making the break up harder, you are not going to make me stay, so stop."

The thing is, I am not trying to control her at all, and I am certainly not running around telling friend/family about what she has been doing or saying. I am of course taking to the people in my life who are supportive of me, but I am not maligning her reputation as she apparently thinks I am. I am just not engaging in R discussions, and I am not going out of my way to be helpful or acting like everything is wonderful, which is what she wants because that would be easier on her. I am not responding to her lengthy texts about our R or taking her calls, except in case of a real emergency. I'm just trying to ignore and detach.

She is clearly becoming more and more upset and is digging in her heals now more than ever that our M is over, which is frankly making me feel nervous.

Thoughts? I appreciate any guidance from folks who've been here before. Thanks!

[ovrrnbw]

She's saying it's over? Say "I understand" and then go back to whatever you were doing. Leave if she keeps badgering you.

Also, how do I reconcile my need to establish boundaries with the guidance to listen and validate? I can validate all day, but at some point, especially with my boundaries, I feel like telling her she can f@#k off! That’s also how I feel I can retain some self respect. I’ll continue to avoid R discussions as much as possible nonetheless.

You listen, validate to shut down any argument. If she's looking for a fight, telling her to F off will make a fight so you walk if it gets crazy.

[AnotherStander]

I've been detaching quite a bit and really avoiding all R discussions, except to reiterate that I am not going around spreading lies about my W to anyone, nor am I am claiming that she is crazy or trying to abandon our children, since she is not.

Don't reiterate anything to her, just leave her be. If she tells you anything, no matter how crazy only LISTEN and VALIDATE. No explaining, arguing, reasoning, negotiating, etc. "You sound angry, is that how you feel?" "I am sorry you are feeling frustrated, I understand this must be very difficult for you." She will say all kinds of spew, your job is to defuse things before they run wild. She will tell you everything is your fault from the rain to the cat she ran over on her way to work. You have to be a pillar of peace and understanding while she spews nonsense.

"Well, now I am certain that our M is really over, and I will not change my mind."

"That is not what I want but I understand it is what you want and I will not interfere. I will respect your decision on this."

"You need to understand that I am done and accept that we will never be together again. You need to stop the manipulation so we can find a solution in our D or S that will care for the kids."

"I do not want S or D but I understand that is what you want and I will not stand in your way. I will not help you though. If you need something from me I will provide it, but do not ask me to assist in any other way."

"I can't be married to someone who lies about me and acts like I am mentally unstable while pretending he isn't acting that way."

"That sounds very frustrating and difficult."

"By making the break up harder, you are not going to make me stay, so stop."

"I cannot and will not try to make you stay, it is your choice to leave or not."

The thing is, I am not trying to control her at all, and I am certainly not running around telling friend/family about what she has been doing or saying.

It doesn't matter. Those are her feelings, and you can't change someone's feelings. If you try then you are only INVALIDATING their feelings which makes them feel attacked. It doesn't matter how "right" or "wrong" her feelings are, all you can do is let her have them by listening and validating. Eventually she'll see how unreasonable she was being, but SHE has to discover that. You cannot REASON with her.

I am of course taking to the people in my life who are supportive of me, but I am not maligning her reputation as she apparently thinks I am.

Only discuss your sitch here or with people that have ZERO contact with your W. DO NOT talk to friends and family, just tell them "we're going through some difficulties right now" and leave it at that, say no more. Even the smallest things you say will find their way back to her and she will see it as you "rallying the troops" against her, and that is BAD.

I am not responding to her lengthy texts about our R or taking her calls, except in case of a real emergency. I'm just trying to ignore and detach.

Good. Just stick to business, coordinating kids' needs and such. The rest either ignore or listen and validate.

[JayR1964]

Thanks for the help!

AnotherStander - I hear you about not speaking with anyone who is in contact with my W, but we have numerous mutual couple friends. Usually the husband and I are talking, while my W talks to the wife, and I find the husbands' support helpful to me. Are you saying that I should not discuss any of this with these friends of mine?

Also, my wife is going out of her way running around telling her family and friends (some of whom are also my friends - see above) every negative thing she can about me and our MR, including throwing around words like
"abusive," and saying/implying I was a womanizer, an alcoholic, gambling addict, etc., when I was none of these things. In her mind, though, I was all of them if I ever did anything that she didn't approve of or that didn't meet her needs. Of course, I was not perfect over 20 years of marriage, so it is easy for her to point out some facts that support her claims when I'm not around to defend myself. I am not going out of my way to defend myself to these people, but I do need to continue to have relationships with many of them, especially some of her family members who watch our kids frequently. Do I not say anything to even present that there is another side to the stories she is telling?

[SteveLW]

Those that are innocent do not have to refute every false accusation. People that know you know the truth. The way you show them that it isn't true is that you behave in a way around them those shows them it isn't true. One of the things I learned here and through my sitch, ACTIONS speak LOUDER than WORDS! I'd always heard that. But now I have no doubt in the truth of that statement. And I try to use it in all aspects of my life now.

So show those people she is wrong by behaving right and proper always.

[JayR1964]

So, W is extremely angry and despondent now! She sent me, literally, 20 text messages on my way to work today saying I am ruining her life and ruining my kids' lives because I won't "let her leave" or be "kind and cooperative". I'm really not sure what she means, since I have NOT been trying to control much of anything she is doing. What I have demanded is that we divide the kids' time equitably between us, and I have said that since we will only have one "main" house and one small apartment, I want to spend part of the time in the main house where my kids live just like she does. She keeps claiming that if I care about her happiness at all, and for all of my sins during our M, I should be helpful and kind and cooperative.

I have been sticking to listening and validating, but she says that I sound completely uncaring when I do this. I texted her back this morning only to say that I was sorry she is feeling so upset and that I will not - and cannot - make her stay, nor will I interfere. It her choice, and while it is not what I want, I will respect her decision. She is just so angry now! She is also accusing me of trying to keep her prisoner in a loveless marriage, and we will all suffer for this. I have to interact with her later, and I'm concerned about her confronting me further, but I will do my best to just listen and validate and then leave the conversation as quickly as possible.

Any other advice is appreciated. Thanks!

[sandi2]

I hear you about not speaking with anyone who is in contact with my W, but we have numerous mutual couple friends. Usually the husband and I are talking, while my W talks to the wife, and I find the husbands' support helpful to me. Are you saying that I should not discuss any of this with these friends of mine?

Here's how that plays out. Once the other couple returns homes, the W picks her H to learn every word you said to him. Then she tells your W what you revealed. That's what women do........and that is why you should not discuss the sitch with mutual friends.

Also, my wife is going out of her way running around telling her family and friends (some of whom are also my friends - see above) every negative thing she can about me and our MR, including throwing around words like
"abusive," and saying/implying I was a womanizer, an alcoholic, gambling addict, etc., when I was none of these things.

That's what WW's do! She's going to blame you for everything, and if she has to lie in order to make herself appear more justified in her actions......that's what she'll do.

You are not wayward. You don't have to jump around, trying to put out fires she starts. If you live honorably, then that speaks for itself.

I am not going out of my way to defend myself to these people, but I do need to continue to have relationships with many of them, especially some of her family members who watch our kids frequently. Do I not say anything to even present that there is another side to the stories she is telling?

Are they asking you direct questions, or just relating some of the things she has told them? These are "her" family members. IMHO, if they press something, I would just tell them not to believe everything they hear. Don't get defensive and start telling your side of the story. In the end, it's a "he said---she said", which fuels the gossipers.

[AnotherStander]

AnotherStander - I hear you about not speaking with anyone who is in contact with my W, but we have numerous mutual couple friends. Usually the husband and I are talking, while my W talks to the wife, and I find the husbands' support helpful to me. Are you saying that I should not discuss any of this with these friends of mine?

Yes that is absolutely what I'm saying! Like Sandi said EVERYTHING you tell these guys is going to end up whispered into W's ear. She is just going to see it as you trying to "rally the troops" against her, and it will drive her farther away.

Also, my wife is going out of her way running around telling her family and friends (some of whom are also my friends - see above) every negative thing she can about me and our MR, including throwing around words like
"abusive," and saying/implying I was a womanizer, an alcoholic, gambling addict, etc., when I was none of these things.

We call this "rewriting history" and it's a popular WAS pasttime. Like Sandi said, don't try and run around putting those fires out, just conduct yourself with dignity and respect and let those actions defend you.

I am not going out of my way to defend myself to these people, but I do need to continue to have relationships with many of them, especially some of her family members who watch our kids frequently. Do I not say anything to even present that there is another side to the stories she is telling?

If you say anything just say "you know me, ask yourself if any of that sounds accurate to you." And leave it at that.

She sent me, literally, 20 text messages on my way to work today saying I am ruining her life and ruining my kids' lives because I won't "let her leave" or be "kind and cooperative". I'm really not sure what she means, since I have NOT been trying to control much of anything she is doing. What I have demanded is that we divide the kids' time equitably between us, and I have said that since we will only have one "main" house and one small apartment, I want to spend part of the time in the main house where my kids live just like she does. She keeps claiming that if I care about her happiness at all, and for all of my sins during our M, I should be helpful and kind and cooperative.

In other words, you should leave and let her live in the house with the kids while you pay for everything. Do everything she says or you are "uncooperative" and "abusive" or whatever. Look she is testing you, this is what waywards do. The worst thing you can do is cave to her demands because you will set yourself up for even more of this treatment in the future. Stand your ground. State that you are not leaving but if she wishes to then that is her choice and you will not stand in her way. Then when she replies "RANT RANT RANT I HATE YOU BLAH BLAH BLAH ABUSER" then reply "it sounds like you are very frustrated with your situation, that must be difficult. But I will not allow you to address me in this manner, if this continues then the conversation is over." If she continues the rants then quit replying.

I have been sticking to listening and validating, but she says that I sound completely uncaring when I do this.

That's OK, nothing you do is going to appease her right now. But down the road it will help. Just keep doing it.

I texted her back this morning only to say that I was sorry she is feeling so upset and that I will not - and cannot - make her stay, nor will I interfere.

Perfect!

She is also accusing me of trying to keep her prisoner in a loveless marriage, and we will all suffer for this.

Just remind her the door is open and she can leave whenever she wants. She's trying to bully you into leaving, DO NOT FALL FOR IT.

I have to interact with her later, and I'm concerned about her confronting me further, but I will do my best to just listen and validate and then leave the conversation as quickly as possible.

Good! Do not put up with abusive behavior. If she yells/ screams/ accuses or whatever then tell her the conversation is over and leave the room. Do not be afraid to shut her down if she gets abusive.