One of things we always say is that if you catch a cheater they will rarely stop cheating, but just take their cheating even deeper underground.
I'd believe him as far as I could throw him. You believe him because you want to believe him.
100%..... you have to let it run it's course, or it will be worse.
Never confront. Ignore. If it comes into the house you're living in (not the guest house) then it's boundary time, and if it's broken..... leave or make her leave (her leave is better).
-SoloFlex
Never confronting is not solid advice. And how does one spouse simply ignore an affair? Many here have endured an affair, but none have ignored.
Most here confront and then try to ignore while they spin in emotion and pain and weakness.
I'd recommend reading some older threads on different DB techniques. MWD is not a fan of confrontation bc most LBS are not strong enough yet to act after confroning.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I confronted and now am trying to be as detached as possible with mixed success. I’ve slipped up a few times with some angry words. I’m pretty p*ssed off, and it shows at times.
This is actually a question I’m struggling with. How do I show my disapproval and be generally unavailable / unhelpful to discourage cake eating while also being “cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times”?
Ovr, I think the point on Jay confronting was that he now believes there was nothing to confront. So in Jay's sitch he now is bearing the brunt of confronting but there is no benefit, since supposedly there was nothing going on.
Jay, detachment isn't so much something you do, it is something too become. You need to be emotionally level around her. And do not emotionally react. She could come to you and confess a gang bang with 50 guys and you'd not even blink.
And showing your disapproval is the opposite of that.
Also can you tell me what you think cake eating is?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve85 - I hear what you’re saying about not emotionally reacting.
What I mean by cake eating is having me as the solid provider, helpful partner, etc., while she’s carrying on a fantasy IA about someone else. I don’t want to be available to her like that, want to express my unwillingness to accept the disrespect, etc., but also see in Sandi2’s rules the need to be cheerful, outgoing and attractive at all times. I’m not very cheerful about being her fallback/reality check getting in the way of her IA.
Another issue we’re having is with housing. We need to move out of our house in a month due to the landlord moving in. We can’t afford two houses large enough for our kids, so W has proposed we get a large enough main house where the kids will stay, and a small apartment that we share. We’d each alternately stay away in the apartment part of the week while the other stays with kids in the main house. I’ve heard everyone saying I should refuse to ever live away from my kids, since I don’t want this separation, but she threatens D and going to court or will get a loan from her brother for a large enough house for her and the kids if we can’t cooperate on this. Thoughts?
This is actually a question I’m struggling with. How do I show my disapproval and be generally unavailable / unhelpful to discourage cake eating while also being “cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times”?
Rule #13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
Rule #13 is meant to show how you go about living your life, whether at home or going out. The 37 rules are to give the newcomer a general sense of direction when he comes here. Some newcomers say they are lost and don't know how to act day-to-day. Some newcomers think they should reflect how hurt and upset they feel, or else their spouse may think they are not taking the sitch seriously. They seem to believe they should look and act pathetic in order to make their spouse feel sorry, guilty, or whatever. However, that doesn't work. So, this rule is basically telling the newcomer to do the opposite. Instead of going for days without shaving, not combing your hair, not bathing, looking like a slob, crying, having a pity party, not going out, and/or showing your spouse/family actions that you are obviously devastated............you take the opposite approach. You take care of your appearance when you are home, and you hold up your head and present your best side. You keep moving and showing that you are a strong, attractive man and the sitch will not take that away from you. You are in control of yourself. You continue going out, even if you don't want to do anything but mope in your sadness. See what I mean?
If you walk in on your W in bed with another man, does it mean you jump in the air, click your heels, and making sure she'll see a cheerful reaction in you? No! Don't swallow a camel and strain at a gnat when reading/applying these rules. Don't let those two words, "be cheerful", confuse you. This particular rule is about the LBS being an attractive individual, in spite of the sitch.
You ask how to show your disapproval. Are you thinking if you don't show her certain body language, facial expressions, moods, or words......she'll assume that you've accepted things? You've been dealt a big blow, and your feelings are normal, IMHO. It has little effect on her for you to go around with a sour disposition and having an angry expression on your face......in order to show her you disapprove. What you need to do is decide what you won't tolerate in your life, relationships, etc. You can't control her life and what she does........only your life. You protect your feelings and maintain your self respect by setting boundaries. If someone dishonors your boundary, then you have to decide what you will do to protect yourself from experiencing that situation again. You see, if she dishonors your boundary and there are no consequences for her, then she's not going to honor it the next time. Since you are already separated and she has an affair......about all you can do is either get a divorce, or else remove yourself from interaction with her (as much as possible).
This leads to the part of your question about not being helpful and discouraging cake eating. That would be a consequence, IMHO. If she has dishonored your boundary, then you don't share an apartment with her. You don't provide the usual duties that are commonly associated with the H (such as her house repairs, upkeep of her lawn, her automobile upkeep, giving her tech assistance, running errands for her, etc.) Again, be smart here. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. For example, if your name is on her automobile, then you need to make sure it has insurance coverage, or sell it......just get your name off, b/c it could cost you major money if you don't protect yourself. Make sense?
If you are separated, and you've discovered she wants an affair with someone, or is engaged in some type of inappropriate behavior you find offensive, then stop playing house with her. If she has told you she doesn't want to work on the MR at this time or she's giving vague answers........then playing as if one big happy family. She has fired you, so stop playing like you are still her H. It's in name only. There is a holiday coming up this weekend (if you live in the USA), so if you have the kids and want to plan something special to do......that's great, but don't invite mommy. If she asks, just say no. If the kids ask, just say no. She should not expect or assume you would welcome her. She will use the excuse that she's still a part of this family, whenever it suits her........but, you can stop her from coming to your place and engaging in your activities. If it's your day with the kids, then take them to a park or somewhere....as a surprise for them. Plus, if you have extended family living nearby, you don't invite her to their usual family traditions of celebrating, or whatever event. You can tell your family you & W are separated, and ask them to support you by not inviting her to extended family activities during this period of separation.
If she doesn't want to work on the MR, then cut out the cake eating. That means you don't ride together to attend the school functions/sports/whatever. You aren't a couple, so you don't act as her escort. You aren't required to sit with her if you show up at the same local events (school, work, community, etc.). If she comes in and sets next to you, act nonchalant, but don't get are warm & fuzzy.....b/c she's just keeping up appearances or doesn't want to sit alone. Again, stay balanced with what I am saying, okay? Newcomers seem to have trouble staying balanced with the advice they read.
Don't initiate texting, unless it is a real emergency. Don't respond to her texts, unless it is about business that affects you, or it's about your kids. Don't get wordy. Learn to answer her questions in as few words as possible. You are not her counselor, BFF, errand boy, event planner, rescuer, accountant, or sex buddy. All that type of "help" ceases immediately. Explanations shouldn't be necessary, but she'll probably push for it. She'll buck, huff & puff.......cause she doesn't like not getting served her usual cake to eat. Don't borrow things from the board, like she's fired you. IMHO, that's not a good response you would use with her. That's just a term we are explaining to you! See what I mean?
If she reacts to these type of consequences, you remain stoic to her huffing & puffing about not getting her cake. These actions are not meant to be punitive, although she'll probably accuse you of it. You see, you are giving her plenty of space and freedom for her to find herself and whatever other b.s. she gave at the time of the bomb drop. You are just giving her much more than she expected or wanted. She doesn't get to tear up the family, and still play the role of one big happy family with the kids.
These are just my suggestions, as per my knowledge of WW's. You may not want to go that strong, IDK. I'm simply telling you how to cut out a lot of her cake eating. Btw, if you have not consulted with a lawyer, you need to ASAP. Know your rights as a father, child support, etc. You don't share with her. Get your finances & back accounts secured/protected, b/c you cannot trust her right now. As soon as you stop serving cake, you will see the ugly surface. However, that's another subject for another post.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Another issue we’re having is with housing. We need to move out of our house in a month due to the landlord moving in. We can’t afford two houses large enough for our kids, so W has proposed we get a large enough main house where the kids will stay, and a small apartment that we share. We’d each alternately stay away in the apartment part of the week while the other stays with kids in the main house. I’ve heard everyone saying I should refuse to ever live away from my kids, since I don’t want this separation, but she threatens D and going to court or will get a loan from her brother for a large enough house for her and the kids if we can’t cooperate on this. Thoughts?
Worst idea ever. Many here have tried this and it is almost always a terrible idea. I would not do this.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hi Sandi2, thanks for reaching out. Tough couple of days to be honest.
An ongoing theme from my W is that she can't stay with me because I don't respect her needs. She feels I am generally very dismissive of her needs and often refused to hear, let alone, accept or meet those needs over the course of our marriage. As a result, she says that if I would only accept her need now for a one-year separation and be cooperative and not an obstacle, that actually makes her feel some hope for us because it demonstrates that I have heard her and care about her.
Unfortunately, her definition of this separation involves potentially dating/sex with others, not working on the MR, yet remaining on friendly terms, cooperating/helping each other, etc. for the year. All of that is very difficult for me to accept, let alone support, facilitate, or collaborate on. Of course, she has also been sending mixed signals since she has said both that she will agree not to date, but then today says that she doesn't want me to have control over her life so thinks she needs to be able to date, even if she has no intention of doing so. She has also said that she doesn't want us to work on the MR because she considers the M over, but she has also said that she will go to MC with me every other week. She also throws out the D threat if I push her too hard by being difficult. I have spoken with a lawyer, and I will be pretty devastated financially if we get a D because she basically hasn't worked much in the last 10 years while we lived abroad due to my career. She has conflicting emotions, which is where a lot of these mixed signals are coming from. Even our MC therapist said that she seems highly conflicted internally about this decision.
Where I keep messing up in my DBing is that when she says the most threatening things to me, usually involving her wanting to be able to date, I have such a hard time being detached or disengaging. I would like to drop the rope, and I have tried to express the "no dating" rule as a boundary of mine that, if crossed, will result in the types of reactions you mention above (only logistical kids stuff and anything else legally required but nothing more at all). That’s when she says that in that case, we should just D, which she knows I don't want. I know not to believe anything she says, so I’m trying to remember that, but I find it hard in the moment to merely validate without engaging in a fuller discussion.
She also has said a few times, including this morning, that she is very upset I confronted her and her ‘friend’ (the guy she has had IA/fantasies about) last week since he now thinks she is crazy. In her mind, she had told me we were separated, so I had no right to confront them, and also I ‘convinced’ him that she’s crazy and was going to leave her kids for him, so I should now contact him to undo this damage and explain that she’s not crazy and that she is not abandoning her kids. Of course, I didn’t convince him of anything. I simply sent him her emails, and he concluded that she’s in a fantasy world, and he thinks she needs help. He wants nothing to do with her now. It’s all so bizarre, since I’m still the one who has been wronged here, and her fantasies as expressed in multiple writings are very irrational. She was kind to me about it the day after it all happened, but now she’s becoming more and more angry, presumably because she’s feeling the loss. Obviously, I won’t contact the guy again.
I’m basically trying to avoid her at the moment since I’m living in the other house for a couple of days as we agreed. I feel better, even though I miss my kids these two days, just because it’s easier to not engage when she’s not physically present. I also feel pretty discouraged that we can ever find our way back to each other. It makes me feel like giving up. I realize time is on my side, and the situation will remain fluid for awhile, so I’m sure I’ll feel more encouraged soon. Ugh! What a terrible experience!
Hi Sandi2, thanks for reaching out. Tough couple of days to be honest.
An ongoing theme from my W is that she can't stay with me because I don't respect her needs. She feels I am generally very dismissive of her needs and often refused to hear, let alone, accept or meet those needs over the course of our marriage. As a result, she says that if I would only accept her need now for a one-year separation and be cooperative and not an obstacle, that actually makes her feel some hope for us because it demonstrates that I have heard her and care about her.
PURE manipulation. She is manipulating you into "getting on board and going with her plan". It is a test. You can play nice and not be worthy of respect, or do what is best for you and earn her respect. Tread lightly here, because every shovel full out of the lack of respect hole is another shovel of respect you'll have to earn back later. Stop digging that hole.
Originally Posted by JayR1964
Unfortunately, her definition of this separation involves potentially dating/sex with others, not working on the MR, yet remaining on friendly terms, cooperating/helping each other, etc. for the year. All of that is very difficult for me to accept, let alone support, facilitate, or collaborate on. Of course, she has also been sending mixed signals since she has said both that she will agree not to date, but then today says that she doesn't want me to have control over her life so thinks she needs to be able to date, even if she has no intention of doing so. She has also said that she doesn't want us to work on the MR because she considers the M over, but she has also said that she will go to MC with me every other week. She also throws out the D threat if I push her too hard by being difficult. I have spoken with a lawyer, and I will be pretty devastated financially if we get a D because she basically hasn't worked much in the last 10 years while we lived abroad due to my career. She has conflicting emotions, which is where a lot of these mixed signals are coming from. Even our MC therapist said that she seems highly conflicted internally about this decision.
Your W is a WW and has no repect for you. That is what all this means. She continues to soften you up for what she wants. WWs don't need to live alone or "separate" to work on themselves or the MR, or to find themselves. They need to live alone so they can sleep with other people. I say that so you know what you are up against. Want to start earning respect back? Go to her today and say this: "Thanks for your offer of MC every other week, however I see no reason to that since the M is over. I have a lot to work on myself and will be starting/continuing (I can't remember if you already are in IC) IC for myself instead."
Originally Posted by JayR1964
Where I keep messing up in my DBing is that when she says the most threatening things to me, usually involving her wanting to be able to date, I have such a hard time being detached or disengaging. I would like to drop the rope, and I have tried to express the "no dating" rule as a boundary of mine that, if crossed, will result in the types of reactions you mention above (only logistical kids stuff and anything else legally required but nothing more at all). That’s when she says that in that case, we should just D, which she knows I don't want. I know not to believe anything she says, so I’m trying to remember that, but I find it hard in the moment to merely validate without engaging in a fuller discussion.
Yes this is huge messing up. JayR, where is the listening and validating?? Stop fighting things that are out of your control. Your W could start dating today and there isn't a thing in the world you could do with it. You have to let her go to get her back. Listen. Validate. Avoid these discussions like the plague. Listen and validate. (I repeat to pound it home.) Then make an excuse to get out of there. If she asks you something during these "discussions" remember this: "I am not sure how to answer. I have a lot to process and need time to consider everything."
Originally Posted by JayR1964
She also has said a few times, including this morning, that she is very upset I confronted her and her ‘friend’ (the guy she has had IA/fantasies about) last week since he now thinks she is crazy. In her mind, she had told me we were separated, so I had no right to confront them, and also I ‘convinced’ him that she’s crazy and was going to leave her kids for him, so I should now contact him to undo this damage and explain that she’s not crazy and that she is not abandoning her kids. Of course, I didn’t convince him of anything. I simply sent him her emails, and he concluded that she’s in a fantasy world, and he thinks she needs help. He wants nothing to do with her now. It’s all so bizarre, since I’m still the one who has been wronged here, and her fantasies as expressed in multiple writings are very irrational. She was kind to me about it the day after it all happened, but now she’s becoming more and more angry, presumably because she’s feeling the loss. Obviously, I won’t contact the guy again.
This is why we do not recommend confronting. It hardly ever results in anything positive for the LBS, and usually backfires like this. Remember, she blames you for everything right now. And now she has this to blame you for. Further you can't trust anything she or him says. This could all be a ruse to cover up future rendezvouses. So your confrontation, for all you really know, netted you nothing. And, even if it ruined their blossoming romance, guess what? She will just move on to OM#2. WWs are like that. And this time she will be very secretive about it.
Originally Posted by JayR1964
I’m basically trying to avoid her at the moment since I’m living in the other house for a couple of days as we agreed. I feel better, even though I miss my kids these two days, just because it’s easier to not engage when she’s not physically present. I also feel pretty discouraged that we can ever find our way back to each other. It makes me feel like giving up. I realize time is on my side, and the situation will remain fluid for awhile, so I’m sure I’ll feel more encouraged soon. Ugh! What a terrible experience!
Ups and downs are part of the process. However, having been through it, I can tell you that you will feel like crap until you start DBing consistently and well. Doing what is intuitive (confronting OM, trying to control her, etc) will almost always result in the lowest of lows. When you get better at GAL (how is that going, btw?), detachment (remember you need to get to an emtionally stable state), and working on yourself (see the quote you should give her above about MC vs IC) and 180ing on bad behavior then you'll start feeling much better.
Not DBing means more discouragement and lows. DBing will lead to feeling better and highs.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
