I'm not sure it is time to have the R talk, but I agree that you're at a cross roads. You sound like you'd be open to reconciliation, but also ok with D.
What would you have to lose if you asked your H out on a date? I can't remember yet if this is something you've done before, but it seems like it's been so long since you separated and so much has happened that you need to get to know each other again. Worst case scenario: he says no, says he's moved on and says he wants D (worst case as in you would be rejected, not that D is something you seem desperate to avoid now). Best case: you both take it slow, see if you actually like each other now, and perhaps have something to build on, even if it's just a better R to parent your kids together and D like mature adults.
FS, the plaster comparison is so descriptive. I think I've seen what you are referring to in your writings. You have each taken steps back and put up walls throughout this process to protect yourselves after the dust started to settle post BD. Simultaneously, at times you have each been kinder to one another in a nod to the difficulties you're experiencing. But to take a step forward it seems (from the outside) that neither of you are ready, or wanting that at this time.
If I had to guess purely as an outsider I would guess this is because you have each been hurt and you are not sure if you can move past the hurt without the other making the first move towards apologies. Right now I'm not sure I see either of you doing that. In your mind and where you are at - would this fall to him? Without him making this move/apology do you see yourself walking away?
I ask with no ulterior motive of course, and I don't know that I can say what is best. Just trying to feel you out to see where you are.
Sometimes I wonder if the "complete break" (D, moving, or whatever) is needed for a couple so that the WAS can feel they are making a fresh start with the LBS - not an apology. To potentially come back together after being definitively DONE is a different conversation and experience than to come back with a more 'active" guilt in a murky situation. I'm not sure I am explaining my thoughts clearly, but it is something I'm ruminating on. You and H see each other too much to step out of the murky, though I agree it is out of necessity for the girls.
Once again, I must say how beautifully I feel you two are coparenting.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I spoke to a friend about this the other day. He feels that there is still hope for us. But that there are great big trust issues on both sides, and a shed load of guilt on his. He also thinks that I am at a cross roads. Looking at two paths and trying to decide which is best for me. By not being transparent with him about the dating, I am hoping to keep both paths alive until I know what is going on. By keeping things from me my H is doing the same (I suspect this is another way of saying cake eating). But it is interesting that it was framed in such a way that I came across as cake eating too.
He feels it is time to have the R talk. There are too many things unsaid, too many assumptions and too much distrust. Neither of us can make a decision because we do not know what the facts are. He things my H assumes I have moved on. I assume my H has moved on.
I do not know. I will need to think about it some more.
I don't disagree with your friend necessarily, but I agree with you that you need more time to consider this.
that analogy with the plaster is spot on. And it is painful, too, to watch something slowly die - or to supervise the slow killing of an unhealthy relationship. Sometimes I wonder if ripping the plaster off is best. That isn't the road I am taking and I know just what you mean about those slow and tiny steps, the gradual unknitting of a life together. It would be so difficult to take a step forward and see if he wants to come together with you again, when the unpeeling has been so painstaking and has hurt so much.
Would it be possible for you to ask him for a not-date date? When H and I tried dating, early on in our separation, it was a total disaster. I got needy and upset and expected to be romanced and wooed, and he, I think, dreaded a gaunt, dark-eyed, tearful woman sitting across from him who he had to entertain and make happy. Not suggesting it's like that with you - you're much more even and calm than I was when we tried dating - put the pressure of the trappings of 'romance' can make people feel upset about not feeling things they think they are supposed to. What has been nice, very rarely, is when H and I have had a cup of coffee together sitting in our garden, and more recently, had a small walk with the dog. It was very low-key. Is there something like that you could ask for?
I would keep on with the dating. You have no obligation to tell your H about it unless you want to. If you do have an R talk and it seems you're going to date or explore what might come next, then you can have a conversation about being exclusive then - when the time is right.
FS, so much of what you say rings so true to me, and I see many parallels in our situations. So much limbo for so long. I have noticed a real numbness to my feelings as well, and have thought often about what you described as the slow, peeling off of the bandaid (I like the term plaster much better , ha!) Sometimes I find myself looking to your situation almost as a window into my own; I can see through yours so much more clearly than my own. I'm thinking more and more that my H may literally just be purely cake eating, plain and simple. It makes me pretty angry when I think of it that way... I am really impressed that you are entering (however gingerly) the dating world. I will really look forward to hearing how that goes. I've finally moved into the place of feeling that if someone interesting were to ask me out in an organic way (HA) that I would do it, but I can't face the world of online dating at this point. I'm looking forward to your reports!
Dilly/Alison - I cannot ask my H on a date. I think I am afraid that it would lead to an R conversation and every R conversation we have had (and granted they are few and far between) has ended up forcing us into corners. He comes out more determined to remain apart and I come out hurt and angry. Whilst he is unsure, I think the best thing I can do is just give him the space to work it out. I have to balance that with the plaster/bandaid analogy where things are moving at a microscopic pace, but still moving. Sometimes it feels like it is moving towards R and sometime it doesn't. I just have to let it be and see where that path takes me.
Yail - Yes, it would fall to him. I cannot do it. If I do and he is not ready, it will just push him further away. I know there are whispers of doubts playing around in his head. They have always been there. I just don't know if they are fading or getting louder. Time will tell.
Hope - It is always easier to see things objectively from the outside. If reading my sitch helps you to see yours more clearly, then for that reason alone, I am glad that, despite the fact that my entries seem to be very 'samish' (that's limbo for you, not a lot happening but there is plenty of sub-texts), that I journal.
I went on my first Hinge date, possibly even my first ever 'date'. I have never actually dated before - BF's were always friends who somehow became BFs. It was good. We went bouldering. I have the upper body strength and core control but lack the reach. I enjoyed it though. It was good physical activity and it gave the date some focus. He was really nice. We exchanged texts before hand and I said I was a little nervous as it was my first hinge date and he said that I should reframe it to be "we are just two people going climbing and I am teaching you". He is in his mid 20's (not that its a competition DV) but I found him to be intelligent, funny and, this might be the mid 20's thing, really attractive.
We did end up spending the night together. Unplanned and very unexpected. In the morning he said that he was confused and needed to think. He had not expected we would get on so well, and "everything about you is perfect but then there is the age thing". Apparently it would have all been fine if he wasn't so in to me. I told him it was a first date and not to overthink things. He is going to Thailand with friends on Friday so I told him if he wanted to contact me when he got back then that would be great. If he thought it might get a little too complicated (and was scared of that) then that was fine too.
I took my rings off before the date and then put them back on when I got back today. Which kind of makes it feel affair like. I know it's not. But it still feels that way.
I have engaged in conversations with a couple of other people. No-one that has really struck me as someone I'd like to meet. I still find it strange doing the small talk thing.
On the H front, we are back to "getting along". It is half term this week so the kids are home. My H has them every day during the week and a couple of overnights. I have enough friends going through the same thing to know that I am lucky to have a H that cares about his kids so much and told him that I am glad we don't argue like other parents. He thinks it is because "we don't have money problems". I think it is because we are reasonable people willing to put our children above our own disputes.
I forgot to mention that last weekend my H took the kids glamping (or glamorous camping). I had known for some time but found out on the actual day that his mum, stepdad, brother and niece were also going. This to me kind of showed the separation of our families. There is my H, our kids and his family all going camping together, and then there is me and the girls. I know that my didn't mean it to feel like that and he was doing it for the girls, but it felt like that to me. I sucked it up and wished them all a really nice camping weekend. Then I went upstairs to my room and cried a little.
When they got back, my H said that BIL's exGF was upset that BIL took their daughter camping. Apparently she stormed upstairs and threw a suitcase down the stairs at him. H was appalled saying "it's because she doesn't want them to have a nice time without her". I tried to make him understand that it wasn't because of that. It was because she was feeling excluded and it [censored] feeling that way. I don't agree with her having a tantrum in front of their daughter, but I do know that it was coming from a place of hurt. He looked at me strangely and then turned away.
He was cooking dinner at the time (unheard of before MO) and he even put out a plate for me. He then washed up after whilst I dried. It was very "family" like. Crumbs maybe. But I think it was good for the children to see and it is better than fraught and toxic. He also caught himself referring to me as his wife. He went to introduce me to someone, "This is my ... FS". Not reading anything into it - just thought it was funny.
Gosh FS - that date and what came afterwards feels like a big deal. Perhaps not for you and the man himself - but for you and your attachment, or not, to your H. How are you feeling today?
Yeah, maybe. This isn't a good girl gone wild scenario. My views about sex are the same as my views on most things. If it brings you happiness (no matter how momentary) then as long as you are not hurting someone else, then you should do it. Which I guess is my way of saying I don't get hung up on it but I do believe in monogamy. There was chemistry, he wasn't a meat head, and it felt right.
The thing that doesn't sit right is putting my rings back on when I got home. I still want to R and I want to try and live my life. Cake eating.
I am feeling OK today. Sore - the climbing thing took its toll on my upper body and I still can't get my arms over my head without saying "ouch" in my head.
Mentally, I think I am good. I saw my H on Thursday and Friday (I worked from home and he took the week off so he could help out with the kids). We were friendlier then normal. We talked about the climbing and he laughed at how sore I was. I agreed to take the girls earlier than normal so he could do an overtime flight in the evening and even commented yesterday that the shirt he had on was a nice color on him. He made a big deal of calling the scheduling office and saying he could do the flight (he normally walks out of the room to make/take any phone call). There was no tension at all.
I am taking the kids to see Phantom of the Opera tonight. My H was not happy about it as the football finals are on and he had wanted to watch it with D12. I reminded him that he had put the childcare schedule together and I was only going by that and the tickets were non refundable and expensive (this was about two weeks ago). There has been, over the week, some slight passive aggressiveness about this (even from D12) but I have stuck to my guns. He sets the schedules. I will be flexible where I have not made plans but if I have, then I will not change them. I think that is fair - even where D12 would rather do something else with her dad.
On the dating front, I am convinced that there are very few normal people out there. 80% of the people who try and contact me are in their 20's. They start normal, but then after a few chat exchanges, the weird comes out: I have had one man (who seemed normal) ask me if I would be interested in having a sex slave, another man offer to massage me whilst naked, and then a whole host who cannot carry a conversation beyond "You are really hot. Do you want to meet?". There is one normal guy, single dad who talks about his son a lot. I think he might be worth meeting. There has been some contact from the guy from the other night. Some flirty (but not rude) and some just normal chat you'd have with a friend.
In any case, I am giving it another two weeks then deactivating. I think the effort of filtering through the rubbish is too high.
I don't know if it is cake eating. You're allowed to want a couple of different things at the same time - or perhaps want one thing - an intimate committed relationship - and see a couple of different paths to get there. It would be different if you were in a sexual relationship with more than one person and they didn't know about each other, or even if you were in MC and actively working on things with your H - but it looks like in your situation you have a good amicable co-parenting relationship and there are no immediate plans to reconcile. So you can be open to a conversation about that in the future without living as a married woman in the meantime, right?
I think you're right to set boundaries about your time. Laying aside not being a doormat to your H, it is important for your daughters to know that plans made are important, and you can't ditch someone when you get a better offer, and it isn't okay to play one parent off against each other, and that passive aggressive communication isn't acceptable. You can't teach your H these things, but you are allowed to teach your daughter.
Ooh I must have missed your big date! I can just imagine you sighing and rolling your eyes at yet another man saying he's confused about his feelings about you, that's not really what you need is it?!
You're not cake eating, you're staying open to the idea of R but also exploring other possibilities. It wasn't you who chose to leave after all. It's weird that so many men in their 20s are into you, what's that all about?! I can see the attraction from your point of view though, I don't think I'd turn down a nice looking 20 or 30 something right about now...
