My suggestion would be to put out of your mind any speculation you have as to his motivations for inviting you. You'll never know. He might not know himself. And ignore anything you might have told yourself about what will happen while you're there. The wives might not ask you anything at all. In that situation, I wouldn't dream of asking. There's a lot of mind-reading and future-predicting going on in those posts. It is a kind of control - wanting to choose what you do in order to get the best possible reaction from your H.
Instead, have a think about yourself and your daughter. Do you want to go? Would it be fun, just on its own terms? If not fun, would it be of benefit to your daughter to have you there? Those seem like the only factors to take into account when you make your decision.
Thanks Alison-- I totally agree. I've tried thinking about it as a separate entity, ie would I enjoy myself and would it benefit my daughter for me to go. I'm honestly unsure about both. Would I have a good time? Potentially it could just be a fun time, and I always enjoy seeing my daughter have fun. i have also missed sociializing with this group, they had become my friends and I was sad to lose them. But, I remember in a recent post of mine FlySolo mentioned that the British tend to be too polite to bring up such a thing in a social setting. Well, I won't generalize Californians, but I will say that I'm certain that these women would ask me, with pure intentions, what is going on between H and I. There would definitely be a certain amount of awkwardness/nervousness/discomfort for me, at least in the beginning. And it may stir up some difficult emotions for me, for better or for worse. I also have a hard time answering in terms of my daughter. On the one hand, she loves it when we are all together, of course. But, if we are in fact getting a divorce, sometimes I wonder if it's a disservice to her to not allow for these opportunities for her to get used to doing things separately on most occasions. Of course there will be special events we will all spend together, but they will become much fewer and farther between if H and I divorce. I agree that I am trying to have a bit of control to soothe myself yet again, but in this case I'm not so much trying to decide what would get the best reaction from H. It is more that I am trying to decide whether the potential benefits of my going outweigh the potential drawbacks, and I am trying to do some (fruitless)mind reading to make that decision.
I guess this is the real issue-- all things pertaining to H aside, I can't even tell if I want to go/think it's best for D3 or for me.
Ah yes - there may be cultural differences at play here! I'd be pretty shocked and horrified to be asked a question like that at a children's party - even by a quite close friend - but you know your social setting best.
I think if you're certain you're going to be asked questions like that, then you could opt not to go, or think of some answers in advance. "We're doing what works for us,' or something like that?
I know what you mean about not wanting to give your daughter the wrong idea. But she's very young, right? So she probably won't remember? Even in marriages that are intact and working well, sometimes both parents go, sometimes just one parent, sometimes a grandparent, depending on working and childcare arrangements, right?
Haven't been here in some time, as I've been super busy and a bit overwhelmed with life's logistics. I'm finally in a place where I can see my future for what it likely is (single motherhood) and while I'm feeling extremely overwhelmed by what that means for me and my daughter, I'm finally facing it head on and trying to prepare myself. I wish I had taken the advice my best friend gave me and done so months ago just in case, but I just wasn't ready at the time. My financial situation is frightening and I am facing the fact that I have to go back to work for the first time in almost 4 years. I don't take issue with that per se; I am certainly not above being a working parent and feel lucky that I got to be at home with my daughter as long as I have been. It's just all very daunting in regards to job searching, dealing with child care and financial pressure. I know I can do it, I'm just honest about the fact that I really don't want to have to. I find myself having my first real thoughts of just wanting to be done with my marriage situation. In the past few weeks my H has been increasingly friendly and seeking my attention/seeking conversation with me and has also shown a BIG uptick in making small gestures of physical contact with me. I have started tracking it a bit just to observe and it is a very new and noticeable part of this. It certainly means SOMETHING, but I don't pretend to have any idea what it might mean, and I spend less time than expected trying to figure that out, because I know how pointless that would be. While a small part of me is encouraged by these "positive" changes, a bigger part of me is a bit annoyed, even angered by it.
Where I land with it is that if it means anything other than some part of him having romantic feelings toward me then honestly that pisses me the [censored] off. It makes me feel like I'm being messed with,or at least not considered at all, and that makes me feel angry towards him. He was very careful not to be physically affectionate with me for a long time, and if his feelings about our marriage haven't changed at least a tiny bit, then I guess I feel he should still be just as careful.
Sorry for the long post! H and I had another painful, confusing R talk. I am feeling really sad and frustrated, mainly because of the timing and way it came about. I think I really blew all the ground I had gained and I'm feeling really low about it. My H and I had been at a limbo plateau for awhile, and he had been increasingly chatty, seeking my attention and even touching me a lot. As I expressed, I was hesitantly hopeful about it, but also frustrated because it felt a lot like cake eating on his part. On Tuesday when he came to see our daughter, he said he was going to take her to his house rahter than making dinner for her here. It was the first time in a long time he'd done that (for weeks now he'd been making or bringing dinner, texting me to ask what I might want to eat, etc) so that triggered me, I was hurt and I lost my cool a little bit, and ended up saying I felt like he was up to something and playing games. i wince when I think of it now, I was in a relatively good position and I blew it because i could no longer control my pent up feelings. Of course that went over poorly, he was upset because he felt wrongly accused. We talked about it afterward and smoothed it out, but we were both still defensive.
on Thursday he didn't text before he came and he planned to take our daughter out again. He was acting colder and more formal toward me again. We got into a silly argument over a parenting disagreement. At one point he said 'you and I just don't go together well" and that REALLY hurt and triggered me, and I said "if you really feel that way then you should hurry up and divorce me already." Again, completely cringing and sick to my stomach that I said that.
After we put our daughter to bed, he said that he felt that by his inaction around making the divorce happen that he thins he has been giving me the wrong idea. That he still wants a divorce and that it is happening soon. He said he thinks that I probably feel like he's been having his cake and eating it too (!!!) and asked if I feel like he "wants me to want him". I somewhat confirmed what he was saying, but also wanted to maintain some ground and told him that I hadn't gotten the wrong idea and hadn't thought it all meant anything had changed, but that I did feel like we needed some boundaries around our relationship. I told him that the way I see it, we have rediscovered a lot of the good parts of our relationship and have gotten along well and that it felt a bit like a half marriage. I said that it has been nice, but that it isn't enough for me, and that it looks to me like all the good stuff is still there between us after all, and that it makes me sad that he doesn't see it that way, but that I accept it. He semi acknowledged that what I've been seeing between us has been happening, but also said that he thought that everything was just going smoothly and that we were friends and really good coparents. I told him that is not what is happening, because we are married but not participating in the marriage, so we can't be just friends and coparents. He understood. At one point I lost my train of thought for a moment and he said "were you about to tell me that you are seeing someone?" I didnt confirm nor deny and just kind of shrugged it off. Then he started asking me the same things he has always asked during R talks: he asked me how,after having been so "cold and distant and acting like I hated him" could I still have these complex emotions about our marriage. I replied that I have explained before (that I was in a lot of pain at the time and said a lot of things I did not mean out of fear for our marriage) and that I will gladly explain again if he wanted/needed me to. He said he remembered my response but that he just doesn't believe my words. I validated a bunch. Then he asked why I couldn't have said all of this sooner, as if to say that if only I had tried to fix this sooner it could have been fixed. I gently reminded him (as I have every time hes asked this) that I had tried a few months after he moved out--- he stopped me and said "oh yeah, I remember I told you that I wasn't there yet" and that I had tried again a few months ago, in our last R talk. He responded that he remembered our last talk in which I had asked him to give our marriage another try. He said that he remembered that I hadn't cried very much during that conversation and that stood out to him because I am a big crier and that he has seen me cry about much smaller things. I gently explained that I know that sometimes my crying is distracting to him and that i had been nervous to discuss our marriage with him at that time, and that I had tried really hard not to cry during it so as to not dilute my words. We talked about our daughter and he cried a little, and we talked about setting more boundaries for our relationship, and that it would be better if hep spends less time here/around me and just takes our daughter elsewhere. I feel simultaneously that it needed to happen, and also really sad and scared about these new boundaries and what they will mean. I'm really focused on letting go of all my expectations and just taking what comes. I'm scared and really sad.I had wanted to have the conversation about boundaries on my terms, and when he was in a positive headspace, and I'm disappointed because I feel I blew that. My best friend, who is the only one who knows about my DBing and is very much onboard, said that she feels like it was all actually good progress with him in terms of our marriage. I don't know what to make of it all, as it was a confusing conversation. Any insight would be appreciated
It's very hard Hope, isn't it? Especially as it seems that from day to day you and your H have been getting on well and enjoying the small time you spend together as a family. He probably is cake-eating a bit - but then perhaps you've been enjoying those little dips into married life too? I've had a similar situation going on and I know how difficult it is not to demand more, and to know you probably should refuse to accept the crumbs on offer in fear of it hastening the divorce.
I think you can forgive yourself for not handling this conversation perfectly. It sounds like he's not cutting you much slack - he doesn't like it when you cry, but he interprets you not crying in negative ways? He likes what you're saying, but doesn't believe it, yet wishes you had said it earlier, yet didn't listen to you or want to hear it when you did say it earlier? The one thing I have learned so far is that you can't 'win' with a person who is not committed to the marriage and not fundamentally disposed to giving you the benefit of the doubt and interpreting your words and actions in a loving lens. And you can't do anything to get him into that position.
It might be now your daughter is a little older it would benefit him to do more of her care on his own in his own place, and benefit you to have that space. And certainly benefit your H and his parenting skills - whether you R or not, he needs to have the confidence and experience in tending to her needs and finding his way as a parent alone.
I think that comment where he asked you if you felt like he wanted you to want him was pure, 100% temp checking, as was his enquiry about him wanting to know if you were seeing someone else. I might have been pretty angry about that in your position. Perhaps some distance and privacy - and a boundary where he can't turn up at your home without giving you some notice or making a prior arrangement - would help him to have a bit more respect. He knows, I think, that you're waiting for him and that you do still want him, and there's probably a part of him quite comfortable with that because it gives him a very nice safety net of security.
I think the only thing you can do is validate your feelings, share your own if he is in a respectful place and willing to listen to them, and agree to what he wants if it is reasonable. I think it is reasonable that he wants to care for his daughter on his own in his own home now and again. It stinks, but unless you have reason to consider him unfit or abusive, that is better for both of them and for you too, in the long run. It might also be a way to get him to think of yours and his relationship as man and wife, aside from your interactions as parents. He's interacting with you as a mother, and not as a wife. That's no bad thing. But perhaps once there's more space, he will start to miss his wife. It's also reasonable for you to want some notice before he comes to your home, no turning up for friendly family meals on spec - and reasonable for you to want a regular arrangement.
Thank you Alison. You’re right; the things he said confuse me and feel like a no win. And it does make me angry. It’s like he’s saying that I haven’t been vulnerable enough in discussing my feelings about all if this, except that I definitely was for a while, and when I have been vulnerable about it he has completely rejected me. It feels like I’m watching him try not to want our marriage. It’s gut wrenching and so frustrating.
And it is very hard feeling like we were getting along so well and having such a nice time together, and that it got blown up in such a negative way. I’d hoped to set boundaries around it on a positive note, not after an argument.
I should clarify one thing: we do have a regular arrangement for his visits with our daughter, and he never comes over outside of that. It’s just that for a while he was texting me before his arrival to make dinner plans, and when he stopped doing that his week and just shows up at his arranged time it felt like a shift back into coldness.
I was just telling my best friend all about the conversation I had with my H. She said it sounds like he is trying to blame his confusion on me. I think she is completely right. He is trying to make it out that I have been inconsistent, inauthentic and dishonest, and none of that is true. He says I’m too emotional, but then I wasn’t emotional enough during our precious marriage talk. He wishes I’d told him my feelings sooner, but when I do he says he doesn’t believe my words. As you said Alison, he is only allowing himself to see me through a negative lens, in which I’m not being loving or authentic or vulnerable, because if he admits that I AM being all of those things then he is out of excuses for what he is doing. I have done everything I could do, including being extremely patient for a long time. He wants there to be something that I’M doing or not doing that is causing his inability to make a move. He wants his confusion and inner conflict to my fault. But I have not been confusing or dishonest or inauthentic or cold. I’ve been consistent and clear and honest and vulnerable on multiple occasions. I keep thinking that he wants a reason to turn back toward me and our marriage, but now I’m wondering if it’s just the opposite. Perhaps he wants a reason to continue not to. It’s a heart breaking possibility, and one I will never understand. I feel like I need to do LRT at this point. I’m a little confused by it though, because when i read what it consists of, I feel like I’ve already been doing it...?
There's work for both of you to do before there can be a R. And you are doing your work, and he isn't doing his and wondering why an R still doesn't feel possible for him. I think my H is in the same position and I want to shake him sometimes. I have exhausted every single possible technique - most of them crazy unhealthy - to make him realise this. But it isn't possible. I think there's a laws of physics to this. And LRT is where I am at - except I am considering it not a technique but as a way of ending the relationship. I don't want to be with someone, or wait for someone, as unhealthy as H. It hurts and it stinks. As far as I understand it, LRT involves acting as if you are single and getting on with your life. It means becoming single in your mind and heart. It's a process. Are there small practical steps you can take over the next few days to get you there?
I think a good start would be going dark to whatever extent that’s possible with a young child involved.
I will continue to leave when he gets here, unless he plans to take our daughter elsewhere.
I already avoid texting him unless he texts me about our daughter.
Maybe I need to do better at truly limiting small talk when he tries to engage me? I don’t want to be rude or cold because than I come across as sulking and I don’t want that. I just want to disengage as far as I can. I’ve never been good at being distant while not appearing sulky so I need to figure that out.
