U - best to feel the pain and not block it. But don't live in it. Having issues with that today, big time.
Also - very important for W to not see you feeling this way. I got home today in anguish after losing it in IC then again on the way home in traffic. I open the door and W was home. made the pain intensify so I took the dog for a walk to calm down and get my head back on straight.
U - best to feel the pain and not block it. But don't live in it. Having issues with that today, big time.
Also - very important for W to not see you feeling this way. I got home today in anguish after losing it in IC then again on the way home in traffic. I open the door and W was home. made the pain intensify so I took the dog for a walk to calm down and get my head back on straight.
Big time slip today. BIL was visiting the last few days, said goodbye tonight. He started telling me "Hey man both you guys need to be happy" and I was getting choked up and just nodding my head. I was thinking, I may never see this dude again. Probably should have kept my emotions in check and just stopped him and acted all casual. It was a moment of weakness. It was like, this guy sees that we are both unhappy. W was out of the room but clearly within earshot. Now she is acting goofy. I'm aware with her self-diagnosis of me as BPD and an Emotional Abuser that she will think I was splitting. Only thing I said during the trip to BIL was when he asked if we were having more kids, and I just gave him a look. And he remarked a couple times how stressed out my W seemed.
So yeah, that didn't go great. I'm sure she's worried about her family's reaction when the BD happens. It's not like I've ingratiated myself with them in a manipulative way, but I do love them, as flawed as some of the individuals are, moreso than my FOO. I have no master plan to get her family to take sides. I don't really care. I will miss those relationships, but it is what it is.
Obviously BIL doesn't know what has gone on between us behind closed doors. He's not M'd, he has no kids, he doesn't really
At some point soon, I will post here about all the details of our conflict the last 2 years, both what I admit was emotionally abusive, and things I consider not to be abusive, and the in-between stuff that I think is murky. Things just get really weird where I don't think it is clear-cut. But I need to air this out soon, because I am confused. I've read 3 different books about Emotional Abuse in the last 2 months, I've discussed with my IC, with my close friends... and I'm so confused. I think I did a few abusive things, driven by NGS and fear of abandonment. And once that infected our M, a lot of conflict could easily be viewed as Emotional Abuse. I am so afraid of being in denial, or minimizing what I have done, but there are things I've been accused of like financial control which are just flat out not true.
I hear all the time how abusers always claim the issue is communication.... But it's impossible to work through issues with no communication. Affection was a problem - I sought it needily, and agreed to stop. Now... did I punish my W by withholding affection, when we literally had an agreement that I would ask her before I try to hold her hand? And after she says no the first 3 times, and I stop asking, what does that mean? I can tell you... I certainly was not of the mindset of punishing her. I was thinking... I want her to take the lead, she is uncomfortable with me, and maybe we will reach a point where things aren't so weird between us.
Anyways, I guess my position in the M is the same. My W's narrative remains: "I need to BD this Emotional Abuser" as far as I can tell. And I'm smart enough to know that my odds are zero in this case.
Am I understanding correctly what you're saying? You ask your W three times to hold her hand and she says no so you stop. Then because you don't ask anymore because you were rejected 3 times you feel she views that as punishment and a form of emotional abuse?
We had a pursuer-distanced dynamic. I felt neglected. I’d say 2 times I went too far with the pleading when W clearly wanted me to stop. Then some other times I would want to talk about our R, she would distance, and I would get kind of emotionally histrionic. One time I had to go to a separate room because I was crying around my kids. Not proud.
The handholding stuff came in MC afterwards. But yeah as much as I regret the things I did, especially when it spilled over into emotional abuse, I do feel like we had a complete communication barrier that exacerbated things. I dunno - again I know that’s a classic excuse but.... one time I just literally wanted my W to tell me what she wanted. And she said I just want to go to sleep. She never told me. I feel like a little communication would have helped, but also I need to own that my issues and resulting actions were in several instances very hurtful and wrong.
Sorry a bit more... looking back there were warning signs. The handholding awkwardness was clearly one of them. Maybe my W thought every attempt to initiate affection would lead to me wanting s*x. It just wasn’t true. Sometimes she said “you wouldn’t be satisfied with every day” at a time where we would go 2 months between. Then out of the blue she would say “you are so cold and distant it really [censored]” and then storm off. Yeah I was defensive. But I tried to understand. I read about NVC and EAR listening and tried. I got frustrated sometimes at the complete lack of traction.
I don’t know... physical touch is my LL. If that ends up being the root cause of my D so be it. I have wondered if I should just stay happy in all other ways but forego the physical touch aspect of my M. Why break up what is otherwise a good thing? But I don’t want to live without touch. Yeah it’s not a substitute for feeling loved but it is a fundamental need. It’s okay for me to want affection in my M.
Am I understanding correctly what you're saying? You ask your W three times to hold her hand and she says no so you stop. Then because you don't ask anymore because you were rejected 3 times you feel she views that as punishment and a form of emotional abuse?
I concur with LH here. This is something you may want to think about re-reading.
IMO rehashing every "wrong" thing you did repeatedly will only cause you more chaos. I know because preDB I did it. Over. And over. And over. I stopped talking to W abt that at the end of last year but continually beat myself up internally over and over again. I still do it occasionally but it has diminished post DBing.
My W is either WAS or in MLC or both. She isn't thinking the same way. She is in a very negative space right now. She is focusing on only thr negative aspects of our R, not the positive. We had many more pluses than minuses. As I've grown stronger I've realized that.
Internally on my part I will not allow her to rewrite our history into something it wasn't. I cant tell her that or expect her to understand that. I can only focus on myself, fix the problems I KNOW I had (not the ones created by her being in a negative space) and hope that maybe she might possibly see it. Gradually. Over time.
I recommend you do the same.
PS I know I said it before, but there is no way in [censored] i would go to a MC with a W that didn't want to work on the R.
My kids were 7 and 5 when BD happened. Due to moving around a lot and my employment not being as concrete and lucrative as exW, I was able to cushion those moves by taking time off work to be with the kids and avoid daycare costs. So, I've had a pretty involved relationship with the kids since the very beginning. I did the stay-at-home-dad thing for a bit and it gave me all the skills to take full-time care of my kids. Now that they're older, it's easier with some things because they are getting more independent.
But as I mentioned, even though I was 'able' to perform all the tasks etc around childcare, I was still not the greatest parent emotionally and mentally with them. I was short with them often and my parenting could've used a lot of improvement. As I took care of my own emotional issues, it had a compounding effect on m parenting in a positive way. I had also mentioned books by Robert W. Greene and Shefali Tsabary really helped me in understanding my role as a parent and also how to engage with my children. I had to unlearn a lot of subconscious parenting things that I was carrying over from my own crappy childhood. This wasn't easy - I went to task on myself and was brutal with myself about it. I had to because the status of my well-being was directly impacting the well-being of my kids. With exW being all WW and entitled etc, I knew that I had to be the solid parent in the equation to create stability, love, and safety in the home for the kids.
I initially did that by generally suppressing my own emotions, but that was just a stop gap and instinctual response. Even though I was making some gains in other areas of my life, the emotional stopgap was holding me back. Life has a way to put your pain upfront and gnaw at you until you break. That happened over a year ago through a very dumb incident that brought grief to my kids. It happened in a public place and I held my emotions in but it was killing me inside to see them be upset. That night, after putting them to bed, I broke down and released what I was holding back. It took a good few days to get it all out, and then a few weeks to parse through it. That was an important breakthrough and I got on the right path to improve my emotional health. That's exactly when Shefali's book helped me and I was able to cultivate my identity as a parent and what I valued with my kids. But, until you get yourself right, you're going to be terrified of being a single parent. The tasks are easy - you can learn them over time and you'll get that. But creating emotional safety and security for your kids is the more paramount issue, which you can do when you get on the path of developing emotional fitness.
Taking a U-turn in my response, you are trying to create connection with your W through vulnerability, and she is rejecting you. Read Brene Brown's book Daring Greatly. Game changer. What you need to understand right now is that your W is not interested in building a connection with you. you can try whatever you want, it's just not going to work. Also, your vulnerability is making you look weak in her eyes. This is the crazy truth about vulnerability I have learned - women want men to be vulnerable, but when men truly are, women lose respect and are disgusted by it. So, the important thing here is to understand how to dose the vulnerability. And that works with someone who is open and receptive to you. Your W isn't right now.
I would highly suggest that you work on your emotional health out of sight from her. Don't become a stoic stone-cold dude, but be more collected and calm even when it's killing you inside. I know that feeling and it was hard to do, but if you want to command her respect, that is one of the things you need to do. As you improve your emotional health, it'll become easier for sure. The LL's as I see right now are inconsequential because she is not open. And you shouldn't have to sacrifice your LL to stay in the M.
I know you want to save the M right now and it's all your focus, but take some time to think what you want in a partner and if she actually meets what you want? What would she need to do to have your partnership? It's all cloudy right now, but ask the right questions to yourself and start formulating honest answers.
Taking a U-turn in my response, you are trying to create connection with your W through vulnerability, and she is rejecting you. Read Brene Brown's book Daring Greatly. Game changer. What you need to understand right now is that your W is not interested in building a connection with you. you can try whatever you want, it's just not going to work. Also, your vulnerability is making you look weak in her eyes. This is the crazy truth about vulnerability I have learned - women want men to be vulnerable, but when men truly are, women lose respect and are disgusted by it. So, the important thing here is to understand how to dose the vulnerability. And that works with someone who is open and receptive to you. Your W isn't right now.
I would highly suggest that you work on your emotional health out of sight from her. Don't become a stoic stone-cold dude, but be more collected and calm even when it's killing you inside. I know that feeling and it was hard to do, but if you want to command her respect, that is one of the things you need to do. As you improve your emotional health, it'll become easier for sure. The LL's as I see right now are inconsequential because she is not open.
Thinking a lot about all these responses this morning...
We all tell ourselves stories. A true narcissist will spin the most positive story imaginable. Some of us are overly negative and tell ourselves self-defeating stories. All of these stories have their own truth.
My story does not align with my W's story. I don't know her story. Part of my story is that she chooses not to share, and in withdrawing so far, makes it almost impossible to repair the R. Maybe that's just my story, not hers. I am positive that my narrative and my W's narrative are completely misaligned, and also that they both contain a lot of truth.
We come to DB hoping to change our spouse's narrative. We stick with DB because we realize the fight is to change our own internal narrative, so we can move on. And hopefully our spouse will adapt their own story as well - but they have to do that on their own terms and their own time.
***
I think I made a minor mistake last night. W and I ended up talking for awhile... first about kids and school stuff, then about updates with her family and friends. In all, this was maybe a 1 hour conversation, probably too long. Even at that length, I still ended up being the one to cut it off. I validated, remained friendly, everything was just absolutely fine AOK. Virtually no talk about me. I didn't insert myself into the conversation.
Now I'm thinking... this is exactly what we did for the last several months. Lots of generic "safe" talk topics, almost exclusively about her. I wouldn't say I am in the FriendZone, but I am firmly in the "we only talk about safe topics" zone. I'm not overly analyzing why she does this, it could be several things: she just does it without thinking, she is trying to manage me so I don't feel completely detached and "go bonkers," she is testing my emotional state, she is trying to figure out how I am feeling.
And I'm thinking... if this D happens, I am not going to be there to talk about her family's health issues, or her friends. I just won't. That is something my W will lose. It is a boundary, I have already decided it. I would still talk about our kids with her, at least as far as it pertains to effective co-parenting.
So maybe part of DB at this point should be withdrawing, or shortening up the conversation when it gets to those topics? I like the opportunity to feel connected, and show her I care, and change my communication a little bit and not problem-solve or insert my opinion as much. But I've been doing a pretty good job listening to her in this way for years, it's not like suddenly I'm DB'g and so now I listen so much better. This is incremental change. There is no major 180 here, nothing that would stick out.
I dunno... it also feels like maintaining the status quo which is really anti-DB. Maybe it is meaningless either way -- not sure if this is really an area to make a 180 or do much of anything. Time is running out until July, when I think the BD is coming -- maybe it's a mistake to even worry about the BD, that I should seek motivation from within and not some timeline.
Maybe time is not running out. Maybe W really will approach MC as an opportunity. Doubtful but who knows?
I don't know. So many maybes. I'm so exhausted trying to figure it out. I'm staring at a brick wall and trying to see through it. My eyes hurt.
Let's go show of hands here on guys that have gone through breakups before prior to M. Like past GF's. Let's look at this from a social aspect, and a loneliness, and self secure aspect. What did you do when you started rebuilding yourself from a breakup? You probably bought new clothes try new things, made new goals, bought new cars, ate new foods, met new people, starting new activities, hobbies. Made some changes and resolutions, tried new music, visit new places. I want all of you to think about this very carefully here. Our WAS are leaving a M mainly because for a few different reasons, they want to taste of a new experience, and the Wayward case a taste of strange d&ck. They usually wind up revamping their hairstyles and makeup personal preferences their music their Hobbies their goals their desires, etc. We re-invented ourselves.Why? Because we had to reclaim our identity of who we were/are/will be. Because they no longer see a future with you after having our lives emeshed with other people.. Past history does not matter to them. F@$k the marriage. It's gone dead and buried. Bread crumbs mean nothing but plan b meaning "I'm not sure.. I would like to keep you around as a friend." Don't acknowledge it, or accept it. For 7 months ice barely worked on myself and re-establishing my social agenda and maybe have checked 4 out of 20 goals because of all the focus on the M. Its time to try new things, make new friends, get out of comfort zone, and actually do the things I either once did, or always wanted to. Is it any wonder why from the outside looking in our WAS appear to be having an MLC? They are not happy with us because they are not happy with themselves, but are trying to re-invent their lives, and it appears strange to us. Remember what I said about your time? It is valuable to you. Treat it that way. You are no longer important to them. When and if you ever will be again? You will know it. Everyday, I want you to set aside time not to think about M bit your future. Set aside time to think about M and limit it to find answers, set aside time, as hard as it is, to be alone, be lonely, do things alone. You have to get used to it and comfortable and make friends with it again as much as it s$cks. Get your priorities and Affairs in order to deal with this and make time for yourself to take care of yourself, read learn and try new things you have to take the focus off of them. Its called uncoupling. You have to regain your identity
