At the moment, I think that MC would involve me listening to him blame me for everything that has gone wrong. I have no evidence at all that he's interested or able to listen. I also don't know I have the ability to cope with listening to more of his bile, or that even if I could cope with it, it would be productive or useful in terms of either R or moving towards an amicable divorce.
But that might just be fear. He has made some small changes, and so have I. I've no idea what inner work he's doing, nor what affect the change in his working circumstances will have on his stress levels and his ability to be empathic.
I think I need more time to figure out how much of my reluctance is fear that I can overcome, and how much of it is wisdom based on evidence.
Alison, I really feel for you. You have been through so much and I can tell you are really, really struggling with what to do here. Your concerns are all 100% legitimate. This is a marriage-saving site but not at the sake of ruining your life. It sounds like you do not want to open yourself up to all that pain and suffering again so here's my advice- don't. You've been doing so much better since adjusting to life without him. Stay on that path. I think he still needs to fall quite a ways and hit rock bottom before he might actually bother to change anything about himself. I think that right now if you go to MC then he's going to do just what you think he will- blame you, gripe about you, get angry if you say one disparaging thing about him. So just table it for now and continue your course. In the future who knows what may happen. But for now I think you know what to do.
Hi Alison, I have read quite a bit of your sitch but have been hesitant to reply. I want to be mindful of your feelings during this difficult time. So instead of weighing in I thought I would ask you a few questions if that’s alright. If not, that is fine too.
Have you learned/read much on emotional abuse or psychological abuse? Do you see any parallels in your own M? Is it possible that DB and other good M saving techniques are not affective when there is abuse involved?
I hope I’m not overstepping here. I was in an abusive R for 6 years. Never violent but a terrible sitch. I didn’t see it when I was in it. I couldn’t. Many, many years later, I see it for what it was now. I wish I had gotten out sooner ...
Warmly, Buy
Last edited by BluWave; 05/10/1905:11 PM.
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I'd struggle to come up with a crisp definition of what emotional or psychological abuse is, but I know that H has been sarcastic, belittling, has called me names, has done nasty impressions of me while upset, has used the silent treatment (extensively), stonewalled, blame-shifted, gas-lit - at various points in our relationship and increasingly over the past couple of years. He can be quite manipulative and withdraw love and attention to punish me. I consider some of this stuff abusive and all of it unacceptable in the kind of marriage I want.
He is one of the most passive people I have ever met. He is extremely evasive when asked directly what he wants or what he thinks about something, then tends to blame me when he doesn't get what he wants. I'm more expressive and emotional, and tend to be able to say what I want a bit more readily, which means he's felt totally over-ridden and like he's not had any control or agency in our relationship. I can see how he'd think that, and I think I have used his fear of my emotions to control things sometimes, but I also think he's never taken adult responsibility for saying what he wants, and has blamed first his mother for that, then me.
However, I'm not a victim here. I know H would say that a lot of his abusive behaviours were reactions to or caused by behaviour of mine that he'd find abusive. Continuing conversations and arguments after he wanted them to stop, crying or being very upset in front of the children, shouting, asking for too much attention, talking when he wanted to sleep, following him to carry on a conversation when he wanted to leave the room, threatening to throw him out, threatening to leave, etc. As I'm a human being I am probably guilty of emphasising his misdeeds and minimising my own.
I'd say that our distancer-pursuer dynamic got really strongly entrenched, extreme and resulted in some unacceptable behaviour from each of us. I am trying to go 180 on pursuing but I don't think I've been consistent or perfect in this.
I am extremely ambivalent as to whether I want to continue the marriage or not. I feel better for not living with him. I'm crushed with sadness and grief some days, and full of hope at other times, but my general steady and calm feeling happens when I am not in contact with him. When I think about things rationally I see how much responsibility I am taking and how much attention I am paying to my personal growth. I don't see any of that in him at all. When he's not blaming me for his abusive behaviour he's blaming his external circumstances - his work (which does cause him stress) and I am buying that excuse less and less.
I think you are doing fantastically well. I recognise a lot of what you are saying. For me, grief and acceptance have gone hand in hand.
A couple of weeks ago, I was overcome with an incredible grief and sadness after months of feeling okay. The mistake I made was not accepting it for what it was ie incredible grief and sadness at the death and ending of something. I thought it meant something more and started to attach far too much meaning to it.
For me, ending this R and commencing a formal proceeding is the right thing to do. I had thought if it was the right thing to do, I should be happy about it. Of course, it was nonsense. For me.
I know that the rational thoughts I have are to end this M and that is the right thing to do. I don't like it but it's the right thing to do. I also accept that I am also allowed to feel grief and sadness even though it is the right thing to do.
I was afraid of grieving. Afraid of finally letting go and acknowledging it wasn't coming back. Once I allowed myself to grieve I felt liberated.
The tears and sadness I felt recently were different to the ones felt 10 months ago. Back then they were tears of hurt feelings and shock. Only time showed me the difference between tears of desperation and tears of grief and acceptance.
Give yourself time. You'll know the right thing to do.
Feel really really sad again today. Took Youngest out last night and had a lovely time - I left all my worries at home and just concentrated on her, and she's developing into such a bright, witty, lovely little thing. Really enjoyed myself. Came home to a disturbed night and an early morning.
I feel lonely for intimacy - not sex, though that's part of it - but just one of those conversations where you can say what is on your mind safely, knowing that the other person will respond with kindness and understanding - at least most of the time. And that they'll say what's on their mind without attacking or blaming you. I miss saying and feeling 'we' and having a sense of a shared life and shared goals. I have the therapy, and friends, and this board, and my kids, and the dog - all of that matters. And I earn my own money and have my own career and am capable of sorting out all the financial and housing stuff if it comes to that. I'm not afraid of that side of things. But that private two-way connection is totally gone from our relationship and absent from my life and has been, if I am honest, for a long time.
I have been toying with taking a risk and telling him what is on my mind. Telling him I've been incredibly hurt and I am afraid that the therapy will be more of the same, and I am not sure I can cope with it right now. Saying that I care about him, and I understand why he has acted the way he has, but I don't want any more of it and I think the right thing to do is draw a line under things and move on to a divorce as quickly as possible. See what he says. But he seems to experience any act of self disclosure on my part as a demand for something - and he will generally respond to demands with either withdrawal or attack. I suppose there's nothing really he can do or say, even in the most hopeful of my imaginings, that is going to take these feelings away and they are my responsibility to process. And I can't say, hand on heart, that this isn't just more manipulation - that I don't just want him to convince me that he's different, and convince me that by hanging in here and staying in the marriage and trying to repair it, I will be happier and it will be the best decision for the children. I want him to convince me of that, but he can't, and I am failing utterly to convince myself and I am so sad about it.
I think I am grieving. I miss him and he is gone and therapy isn't going to be the place where I see him again because he's just not there.
The intimacy thing is massive. But only you know whether it is fantastical on your part and whether it had gone some time ago.
Mine had and so I had to ask myself why. I stopped feeling connection and I didn't care enough to work to put it back. When I look back, I knew it had happened when it was happening and I still didn't care enough to put any work into it. That truth is often masked by the shock of DB and the survival instinct that kicks in with us. That instinct disguised the truth of my M.
So you already know that 'laying it on the table' is not a good idea. Because words are cheap. You are very close to detaching. You are starting to appreciate "I am failing to convince myself" The balance of your dynamic is shifting so that what you want is becoming paramount over what you want to convince him of. Eventually you will separate the two and for me that is detachment.
For me this was the most painful bit. It would have been easier to say that I wanted to wait and stand in many ways rather than have to dig very deep and admit what I wanted. It would have been easier to cling onto what I knew and not allow the reality of a future without him to be realised. I didn't want to accept that what we once were was truly gone; that the person I had known for 30 years had gone. I had to accept the evidence. It is hard.
I really don't think you should say these things to him, because it puts you back not forward, it puts you at risk of rejection and changes this emerging dynamic. Then you'll find yourself at the same point over and over again.
You can act them though. Try them on for size. To truly work out what you want you need this time, distance and introspection.
Don't push those feelings of grief and sadness away. Take yourself off where you can allow them to be if that is possible.
You need still more patience Alison. He seems to be making the right noises, but until he has finished this work and recovered I doubt he'll be in a place for change. Probably best to wait till he's recovered until you think about MC. Let yourself feel the sadness for your old MR (because it's gone) and then pull yourself together and keep on GAL. Feelings pass, that's their nature.
“I'd struggle to come up with a crisp definition of what emotional or psychological abuse is, but I know that H has been sarcastic, belittling, has called me names, has done nasty impressions of me while upset, has used the silent treatment (extensively), stonewalled, blame-shifted, gas-lit - at various points in our relationship and increasingly over the past couple of years. He can be quite manipulative and withdraw love and attention to punish me. I consider some of this stuff abusive and all of it unacceptable in the kind of marriage I want.”
Yes, I agree, these are all forms of abuse. I have read most of your posts and his behavior is unacceptable. Your H is cruel, controlling, resentful, and does not have much insight into his own deplorable behavior. I think he will need to take a good, hard look at himself and make many changes before he can be a decent partner to anyone. This kind of work is grueling and takes many years. First step tho, he has to admit he even has a problem. IMO, MC is about two people coming together and willing to look at their own part. I don’t believe that works with an abuser.
You say that you are not a victim because his behaviors are caused by you or reactions to you. My dear, this is the exact reason that you ARE in fact a victim. He justifies his abuse of you, and you allow it. This is how it works and why the cycle is so incredibly difficult to break. It is also why I said that people can’t see it while they are in it . So pleas read this next sentence over and over.
THERE IS NOTHING A PERSON CAN DO TO CAUSE ABUSE.
Here is the thing, you are not perfect. You have made mistakes - we all have! You might provoke, cry/beg, follow him and be needy, etc. I’ve read your rationale. I hear you. But, he of his own free will, decides how to respond. He has the right to ask for space, to tell you he’s not ok with your behavior or to leave the M. He does not, ever, have the right to abuse you or anyone.
You deserve to feel safe and not as if you will be punished for your own mistakes. You sound as if you can breathe better when he is not around. You don’t have to save your M if it’s not safe for you. Your kids deserve a safe environment too. You are in the hardest stages right now. It will get better as you let go and decide you have had enough of this torture. You will find your stronger, confident, healthier self again one day. I promise she is still in there.
Hugs, Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Thank you ladies. I feel much calmer and more settled today and thinking about your words and suggestions as I was outside with the dog was a big part of that. The support here is amazing.
Yorkie - I will need to reflect more on this - I really need to consider it more carefully. You're a profound woman!
"The balance of your dynamic is shifting so that what you want is becoming paramount over what you want to convince him of. Eventually you will separate the two and for me that is detachment."
I think on balance what I need is more time. I can't ever have another experience like my last experience of MC with him. I think I'm in a different place than I was last summer, but i don't know that he is. And I don't even have a tiny bit of evidence that would make having a bit of faith and taking a well informed risk a sane decision.
I also know that the only peace between us at the moment is when I stick to the very superficial and make no demands on him at all - DBing, basically. We can be very cordial and even have a little joke now and again. I am learning to soothe my own anxiety around his moods. When he turns up tired and exhausted and snappy I get a pounding heart and sweaty palms but what helps is being able just to leave the house or the room or knowing he will only be here half an hour. I can't imagine being stuck in a room with him while he unloads.
I think the only thing that keeps our marriage afloat is if I take responsibility for his abusive behaviours and undertake to change my own behaviour so that he won't be provoked into doing the things I find unacceptable. I still live as if that were true but I know in my heart that it isn't. Each of us always had the choice to behave decently, and any departures from that were always our own responsibility. I can own that and feel genuine remorse for the harms I caused him and my part in the scenes my children witnessed. He's still - I think, though we haven't talked about it for months - stuck in that 'well if you didn't cry I wouldn't need to get so angry' mode.
I will not bring this up with him. He mentioned it yesterday when I saw him with the kids and I just said, very simply, I was in two minds about it and needed to think about it more carefully, but I appreciated him making the effort. I said he could trust me to give it some serious thought and I'd let him know when I had. And that was fine - it was a very gentle and brief conversation. I will think about it more, but I think for me to go forward to MC or any type of R with him I need to be better at maintaining my own boundaries and not being so upset by his moods, and I need to see him taking responsibility and showing some remorse for his behaviour. I am not there yet and neither is he.
I don't feel sad today. Very steady and peaceful and determined to enjoy this time. If I am to work on my marriage in the future, it will be really hard and difficult. Being married itself comes with its ups and downs. Being single and not working on the R is lonely sometimes, but it also has plenty of benefits and I plan to take full advantage of them today and get out and enjoy the sunshine.
