Too right, pity parties are just awful. You're right to want someone to be there for you, but feeling like a victim is a powerless place to be. I hope the long walk helps, exercise often does. I'm off out for a quick run myself before I leave.
He can be happy and enjoying himself with the kids, then the slightest little thing can trigger a rant about how awful I am and how terrible our marriage was, or sneering nasty sarcasm, or just utter coldness and withdrawal. This still happens fairly regularly. Me telling him Eldest was going to be helping out more with the morning chores triggered nastiness and sarcasm about him. Me asking him if he'd arranged for the kids to see his parents on Easter Sunday triggered a 20 minute tirade about how I was too ashamed of myself and my own terrible behaviour to be in contact with his parents, then two days of me being upset and him sulking about it... he reads a lot into fairly innocent things and reacts to that, and I have no way of predicting what innocent thing will set him off. So I find myself on guard against all of that, trying to manage my behaviour and his so as not to trigger it, or just withdrawing from him and doing something in another room entirely so as to get some relief from my anxiety.
it is often said here that they go through the same playbook. No matter what I did it was wrong. He would find fault no matter what. Went for a bike ride with them I was being clingy, didn't go for a bike ride I was being sulky. But if you flip it around and everything you do is wrong, then you might as well what makes you happy (or in any case, do what feels right and true to who you want to be).
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I think the problem is my expectations and desires, and my fear of his moods. And while I can't really control those emotions right now - though I hope to get there - I do get a huge amount of relief from them when I am not around him.
Time and distance. You have said yourself you are less anxious when you are not around him. Your moods are at the mercy of his moods. You both start of wanting an interaction to go well, something happens (trust, broken expectations, a small slight), then he goes back to being shouty and you go back to feeling rejected and wanting reassurance. Leave him be until you are strong enough to not let the rejection sting you. He will not like it, but he will respect you for it. You cannot have a relationship without respect - believe me I know.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
H got in touch last night - he's been texting most evenings after work. He said he felt depressed and low and just wanted this work project to be over. I usually text back but because it was unusual for him to disclose himself like that I called him back last night and he sounded awful. When he's low he is totally withdrawn and remote (or in attack mode) and it does frighten me.
This is him offering you a crumb and you biting his hand. I think I would have text back something like "That sounds awful. Let me know if you want to talk about it". Then if he calls, listen and validate. If he doesn't, oh well.
I personally find if our interactions go on for too extended a period, some of that anxiety/fear/silence comes back so I tend to limit the interactions. Time and space.
The advice often given here is to not make yourself as available. There was a part of me that thought that was a little 'game playing' but it isn't. It is self preservation. Give yourself the space to heal.
I think you're right, FS. The phone call went all right, in the end, but it was because we kept it very short. I don't doubt that if we'd have been in each other's company for longer I'd have done something to irritate or upset him - even if that was only my obvious anxiety about irritating or upsetting him. I choose to try to see him more kindly - as someone who is going through a hard time attempting to seek support from someone who he also resents and does not trust, rather than someone out and out manipulative, but whatever his motivations or plans, what is best for me is still the same, I think.
I feel better after getting out a bit. Less self pitying. I do need time and space. I think I wobble a bit when I think about how close it is until he finishes his big bit of work and how I need to manage my expectations as to what will happen after that. I am trying to do that - I really am - but I suspect I have a nasty shock coming and some more grieving to do when he doesn't just dust himself off from his stress and start acting the way I want him to act. Booking the time away for myself was part of that - to take my out of the way, to focus on myself, to get entirely away from him (and the kids, to be honest) and have some focussed solitude and self care.
I am afraid. I don't mind admitting that. I'm less afraid of him these days and more afraid of what little I will accept should he ask to come back in a few weeks' time.
We all have a lot of fear, Alison. In your case you have a lot of power to work out what you will accept and what you won't accept if he asks to come back. For starters you don't have to accept him coming back at all. And if you do accept him coming back you can have certain boundaries. But it sounds like you need to move super slowly if he does come back. Like months and months and months. Is he in IC? That could be a condition. You could have certain milestones, like dating once a week for a couple of months, and if that goes well then move forward to the next stage. It's not all or nothing, it's both of you working hard on yourselves and on your relationship to make yourselves and your marriage the best it can be. I've been thinking a lot about what me moving forward with my dh would look like (which sometimes I think is me being delusional given his signals, though they are mixed! 'Let's spend the weekend together! No you can't see my flat!'), and I've come to the conclusion that if we R things will have to CREEP forwards in tiny stages...Because it took decades for things to go wrong in our marriage, so expecting things to turn around in a short time will not end well. Behaviours take time and effort to change, to wear new healthy grooves in your brain instead of the old destructive ruts.
I try not to think about it - about what my red lines would be, and what I need, and how I'd want it to go - because it feels like counting eggs and perhaps trying to control an outcome I am not in control of.
Having said that, I don't want to be entirely passive either. I don't want to give him an ultimatum, but I do want to clearly understand what he is and isn't offering so I can decide whether I want it or not.
Perhaps when I am away at the end of this month that is one of the things I can reflect on. I need to balance accepting who he is - an imperfect person as I am - and working on my own shortcomings and processing the blame and resentment and lack of forgiveness I feel - all that is my job - with having some basic standards and boundaries for ways I will and won't be treated. He has said he wants to go to MC and when he does talk about our situation or the future, the sense of blame he had - the resentment about being asked to leave, the blaming Eldest for all our problems - seems to have in the main, faded away a bit.
I had a rough day yesterday. Couldn't really get my head in the game and spent a lot of time moping and weeping. I was spinning, I suppose, and convinced myself that the EA woman was still on the scene and that he'd BD me he was with her once he'd done his work and didn't need me to be so co-operative when it came to doing all the childcare. There's no actual evidence for that at all - he works and sleeps and that's it - but it was a horrible place for my head to be in. Still, I didn't contact H or let the kids see I was upset and a sad day now and again is okay.
We had a cordial chat at drop off. He's lost weight since I last saw him (which was only five or six days, I think, and I remember thinking that he'd lost weight when I saw him then) and he really did look awful. He talked to me a bit about how stressed and anxious he was. I validated. He was a bit snappy and impatient with Youngest, who was a bit annoyed at not seeing him for longer and I tried to strike the balance between staying out of it, not criticising him and supporting him as a co-parent. It's all attached to this one big work task and I said I knew he could do it - that's true - he is more able to compartmentalise and work hard than anyone else I know, and his perfectionism is bad for him but really good for his work. I am worried about him, but other than do most of the childcare and not gripe about it - which I am, and we will have to come up with a more equitable arrangement once this work is over, next month - there's not much else I can do for him.
Had an unusual conversation with H yesterday at drop off for Youngest. Enlightening.
He was taking the dog out with Youngest for a couple of hours while I did some errands. When I got back I asked where they went and if they'd had a good time. He said he didn't want to walk close to home as he felt ashamed about being here, being seen by the neighbours. He'd had a conversation while I was out with our next door neighbour, who'd commented on him not being around much. He'd told the neighbour he'd moved out at the start of the year, and apparently they'd had a bit of a conversation about that - he didn't go into detail. I think he felt a bit embarrassed at the thought of neighbours knowing our business. He was telling me about that - communicating, I think, his feelings. It wasn't done in a blaming or critical way. I didn't respond well at all. He said something about moving house, or us thinking about moving house, and I said 'is that a condition you're making of us sorting this out' and he was immediately exasperated with me and started saying things like 'I'm not standing here for the next half hour while you have a go at me,' (I was doing nothing of the sort) and he went on in this vein for a while until I said 'shall we just leave it? Give me a hug before you go,' and he did and it was okay.
I've been reflecting on that a lot. One of the things that he says is that in the future he wants us to be better at supporting each other. I know that one of the things I want to be different for our future - if there is one - is that I want us both to be more honest. And I can see from this interaction my part in the lack of honesty in our interactions. He was being honest with me about his feelings, and because I didn't like it and it made me feel a bit insecure, I asked a question which was pretty much designed to extract some reassurance from him. I wasn't offering him any kind of support and instead his expression of something hard triggered a need for support in me - not only a need, a demand, even. And he reacted angrily - assuming that he'd be put through the wringer for half an hour and forced into an interaction he didn't want.
I think for honesty to take place - real honesty, which I want in our future and will be essential to repair - then I have to be able to validate his feelings even when I don't like them and I have to take care of myself when he's sharing something difficult and not expect him to put his feelings to one side to take care of me. And there's work for him to do too - in actually disclosing himself to me (which he was doing - I can see that now) in ways that are non blaming, not critical, and don't involve verbal and emotional abuse. I can see that he's been working on that recently even though it isn't perfect. Obviously I'm far from perfect too.
I don't think the issue is moving house or the problem with the neighbours knowing or not. Or at least, that isn't anything I can do anything about. I think the problem is me not being able to stand steady on my own feet when he's wobbling, him not trusting me to do that (not trusting it is safe to wobble, or be honest about his fears) and how I can get myself to that place.
Lots of food for thought. We left it on good terms. He called in the evening and I told him a little bit of this - just my understanding of what was needed (from me - I didn't comment on his side of things). I'd had some trouble with Eldest and updated him on that, and he made some suggestions for changes in a really positive and uncritical and non blaming way - it was night and day from the way he usually communicates, and I thanked him for it. He sent affectionate goodnight text message and I replied saying that I was glad that he'd remembered - that being able to count on that small thing went a way to healing what was hurt.
I am not sure if we've made a leap forwards or I have made a leap backwards. I feel okay. I have GAL plans for today. I sent encouraging text this morning but kept it light. I want to focus more on getting myself steady and being able to hold onto myself and not descend into pity parties and panic and demands for reassurance that overwhelm him when he's struggling. I want to learn how to do that. Of course in part for the relationship - but if this doesn't work out I will need to learn to do it anyway. I think it's called growing up. I want to focus on that.
Growing up is hard to do! I'm sorry you had a bad day, but I can sense you getting stronger. We all have bad days occasionally and they are really horrible, but most of the time the bad days get slightly less bad don't they? We are getting stronger all the time. Maybe you're right not to think of the future too much, just live in the moment the best you can because the future is not under our control at all.
Thank you Dilly. I think I am getting stronger. I can't say I've had a great couple of days, but I have had some fresh insight into my own behaviour and something that I want to change about myself and my way of interacting with people - not just H, but generally.
I also need to get a handle on the pity parties. I was out with the kids yesterday and I saw, very plainly, that when they are a bit whingey and negative they are using my playbook. I know I've used sadness and negative feeling to extract care from H in the past, and they've spent their childhoods watching me do that. But I can be as happy as I make up my mind to be and teach them to manage their feelings differently too. We had a bit of a chat about it in the car and came up with a silly code word to use with each other when we spotted moaning and negative behaviour.
I saw H last night. He finished a big chunk of the project he's been working on and submitted it yesterday. The kids were really excited and wanted to bake him a cake (it was Eldest's suggestion, actually) so I bought them the ingredients for that and let them do it. When H came to see them in the evening, he was obviously utterly exhausted and wasn't as enthusiastic as Eldest wanted - so Eldest got in a bit of a mood. I could see it escalating so I took the kids out with the dog. Asked H to come with us (Eldest really wants this) and he got very reactive and sullen about it - saying he was too tired, didn't feel like being told off, etc etc. So we just went on our own. Spent the walk validating Eldest and settling myself down.
I think he knows full well how deficient he is being as a father - he sees them a couple of hours twice a week at the moment. He barely makes conversation with them. I believe he'd like to - but he just can't. I don't feel angry with him about it, but I also don't feel like enabling it either. Eldest is craving his approval and attention and he is too wrapped up in his own suffering to give it - and that is causing damage to their relationship I can do nothing about. It's actually really sad.
He was still here when we got back. He talked to me a bit - said things would be different in the summer, he'd be a better friend to me, more present, have more fun with the children. I think he sees how much time the kids and I have been spending getting out and about together and what an effect it has had on the household mood and our relationships. I think this was also him acknowledging he'd been a bit of a downer and disappointed the kids. I wish he'd had the humility to acknowledge it to them - I don't care whether he made a fuss of the cake or not but they certainly did - but it is what it is.
I was feeling thoughtful last night. Wondering if I have the balance right between compassion and boundaries. I want to be kind to this man who is clearly suffering. I don't want to leave myself open to the kind of treatment he sometimes dishes out when he is feeling bad. I think I had the balance right last night - I was friendly and neutral - but I do feel a bit troubled sometimes by how hard it is to feel loving towards him right now. I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the damage he is doing to the relationships he has with his children. I find it difficult to respect him when he's so self-pitying and self-righteous. He wasn't critical of me but when we were chatting as I cleaned up after dinner, he got animated in having a good moaning session about some mutual friends of ours - and yes, they are a bit irritating, but who isn't - and it was the most animated I'd seen him in weeks, tearing strips off other people. We've bonded like that in the past, me joining in on it, but I didn't feel like it this time and I just made listening noises and let him run out of steam with it. I don't want to bond with him over ridiculing other people. I don't like that side of myself and I want to change it. I don't like that side of him either. The constant critical negativity and finding fault with everything. But there you go. I don't have to like him. I am okay with how I behaved last night.
Today is an admin day. Ugh. But I will concentrate on the accomplished feeling I will have when it is all done!
I know what you mean about not wanting to bond via bitchiness. It's so easy to do and actually very unhealthy for everyone, I've been guilty of it in the past too and is something I've actively changed. My H was also only really animated over the weekend when he was complaining about work politics. I listened, validated and thought how sad it was that it consumes his life and makes him bitter. It takes a lot of effort to focus on the positives in life but it is so worth it. Good luck with your ugly day
