I was reading another thread. The idea on the thread were that if the WaW is leaving an LBS who truly wasn’t bad to her and she has no interest in making things work, she must be WW and probably involved with OM. Unless she has a strong reason to leave such as abuse or real mistreatment, not the typical WaW complaints (not enough time together, not enough affection, busy with work) then she should have some urge to not break up the family.
This is just an idea that supports my W is wayward. I remember talking to her just 6 months ago about a couple we know getting divorced. Her moral opinion on that was “people should work on the problems in their marriage. I could never just give up like that”. And here we are 6 months later with her preparing to move out in a few weeks.
It just shows that this isn’t the W I knew previously who had strong morals of family and lasting marriage. I have suspected an EA and while she has done well to cover it up, I feel there must be things going on behind the scene that I know nothing about.
I told my best friend who is moving in with me after my W and MIL move out, about the situation. His response was “it almost seems like something is missing.” Like the story and path of events just don’t add up. The W I used to know was very faithful and loyal to me. There was an occasion when we had just started hanging out after our first breakup, where some guy was trying to get with her. We weren’t officially dating at the time so my opinion of it was, you can talk to whoever you want since we aren’t dating. She took the initiative to stop talking to this guy and even told him, “I can’t be talking to you anymore because it may hurt my chances having an R with Hallzy.
So if she is involved in an EA at the moment it is far from her normal moral compass and she must be wayward. My guess is she wants to move out to be able to see how things go with the mystery OM. I’m hoping some light will be shed on this in the future but it is out of my hands. I’m just gonna focus on myself and my son and see where things go.
Got home early and noticed W left her diaper bag on our front entrance key table where I put my keys/wallet everyday without fail. She has NEVER put it there and usually always has it in her car. It’s a small table so it’s kinda ridiculous to put a large bag onto of it.
She left the side pocket open and I snooped a little (shame on me I know but it was right there). In the open pocket I found a divorce attorneys card. She seemed like she had t seen one a week ago so maybe she saw one after I told her I had seen a lawyer. Wondering what the lawyer said but I know divorce attorneys love to push divorce to make their money.
Anyway, she must have left the bag on the table on purpose hoping I would find the card. Am I sounding crazy? Haha oh wel, I’m not going to mention it to her and I’m gonna try not to think about it. Just wanted to journal about the situation. More later, Thanks
Someone said here that 99% of WAW'S are WW's. I know it is advisable that we are looking for behavioral changes rather than red flag signs that can possibly misconstrued. But who can compile a really good conclusive list based on their experiences? There are a lot of subtle behavioral changes that I've noticed over time, but still hard to confirm. I know every sich and person is different. Im looking for common patterns, scripted b.s. etc. Not that Im focused on the WAW. I just want to learn what else to look for in case I ever encounter it in future again. I've had plenty of experience sniffing them out before, but want to get better at learning the behaviors. Im convinced that these "justification" lists for leaving, the turning cold, and all of the "too little too late" stuff maybe legit, but all that resentment it almost seems intentional for not only justifying their behavior, but to intentionally push the LBS away out of guilt. I sometimes wonder, how much is good enough for someone?
Im convinced that these "justification" lists for leaving, the turning cold, and all of the "too little too late" stuff maybe legit, but all that resentment it almost seems intentional for not only justifying their behavior, but to intentionally push the LBS away out of guilt. I sometimes wonder, how much is good enough for someone?
Interesting point IHCLACS, my W had sooo much resentment the few weeks around BD she wouldn’t even talk to me.
So I need some help, some drastic changes but I’ll get into that after my question. The W asked me to go shopping with her later to get stuff for our S. I am inclined to say yes as my Son is my top priority. She also asked me to go to lunch with her and our son at one of our favorite restaurants. I told her I would think about it. Do you guys think I should be doing stuff like this once in a while or no?
Okay so journaling last night which was very interesting. Incoming huge wall of text. If you have been keeping up with my sitch I have spoken about how I have been DBing quite well: no R talks, GAL, PMA, 180s, the works. I believe I have done great at DBing the past few weeks. I haven’t been starting conversations but when W starts one I really give her my attention and validate when I can. She has gone from not saying 4 sentences to me a day around BD to constantly talking to me about everything.
I have been doing a ton of work on the house as part of GAL. This is also a 180 as I was somewhat lazy before and would leave something broken or needing to be done for weeks. Yesterday I spent a ton of time working in the backyard. A couple days ago a tile in our bathroom broke, my W cut her toe on it and was bleeding a lot. I removed, replaced and put new grout around it within the next day. We also had some support planks break on one side of the bed. I replaced those as well.
So yesterday my W got home from work. I was in my MBR with my S. It was almost his bed time so we were just hanging out. She came in an initiated conversation about her day. We joked around a bit and it was a pleasant chat. As I sat on the edge of the bed where the planks had been previously broken W told me not to sit there because the bed was “broken” on that side. I responded that I had fixed it already. This is a big 180 too because usually I wouldn’t take initiative and do stuff without being asked first so I think she was really surprised.
She then said, “Who are you? You are like a whole new man.” I couldn’t help smiling at this with how much effort I have been putting into bettering myself. It felt good hearing that. I followed up with, “I’m not sure what you mean?” She continued saying how I do all this stuff now and everything I do now differently. I played it off cool and said, “speaking of doing stuff, don’t step on that tile, I put the grout around and it’s drying”.
I told her I had a hockey game in a day and if she could watch our S. She responded that she would take our S to my game. (She hates hockey and has been to like 1 of my games in the past year so this was strange.). She asked if I wanted them to go. I didn’t seem overly interested and said, “sure you can go if you want”.
We then talked about how I signed up for swim class with our S (180). She said that she wanted to go with us. She then went on to say that she still wants to do things as a family. She worded it “if we don’t get back together I still want to do stuff with S as a family.” She seemed certain that we wouldn’t have a chance at R a few weeks ago. This seems like an improvement that she could be considering R. I responded that “it would be weird for us to do family stuff if we weren’t together”. She then told a story of a friends parents who even though were divorced they spent time as a family. I sort of ended the talk there because I already made it clear I wasn’t really into that.
Once I put my son to bed, W and I drank some beers and watch some stuff on Netflix. We had a ton of conversation and laughing. It really felt like how things were years ago. She seemed super into me. She was being very flirtatious (kept grabbing my arms feeling my muscles, trying to tickle me, play fighting/hitting. At one point she straddled me on the bed. She then said “you wish”. I responded, “what do you mean you wish, you are the one on top of me”. I reciprocated the flirting but did not initiate or elevate.
Usually I would try to escalate this to s*x but as a 180 I just went to bed. Super weird having her be all over me and so interested when just over a month ago she seemed to hate my guts. This morning she was super pleasant, talking a lot to me and kept interrupting me getting ready for work to talk. This was when she asked me to go shopping with her this afternoon and if I wanted to get lunch with her after I get off work.
I feel like things are going well, but I’m not going to get my hopes up. I’m gonna keep doing my thing until she puts R on the table or we get a D. Any input is appreciated and thanks for reading my sitch. More later
Keep doing what you are doing. Although some might advise you differently on here, it's ultimately up to you. As far as still doing things as a family "seperated" still on IHS. I've attempted to try the "lets do things together as a family still" on W's birthday previously. It was met with great receptivity and she did enjoy the thoughtfulness I put into it. But there's something that I noticed from the pictures. I was so in my head, and not present. Even after doing a few family dinners, and activities out here and there, I am still "friend zoned" (Not a place a man should ever be with his W out of self respect IMO.) This is an area I've really been struggling with internally, not because of her, (well actually yeah because of her.) But because of S1. I have no problem hanging around with my in-laws and her family individually, and I've made myself clear on that to them, but I choose not to get involved with family functions that I am still invited to by W. I choose that for several reasons. I know this sounds punitive of me and I'm the one that's losing out on spending time with my son, and it breaks my heart.
I have decided that I'm not ready to "play family" just because they are at that point ahead of us, and they are past the point of not loving you anymore, but want to keep up the social appearances, still having you as plan b, and for the sake of the children. What she is trying to say is, ( I like you as a friend, I would think you would make a good co-parent, a good father, everyone misses you, and other people can make it work so I can make it work, so why can't we?) So again this all comes down to a matter of personal preference, what you can handle emotionally and what your principles are. For now, where I am at, I say let them feel the loss of you before the S becomes real, even if it is at the expense of spending time with your children. Be there for your children on your own time and in your own capacity 100% though.
Perhaps in time as I detach a little further, I will pick and choose which special occasions to attend, and put differences aside. I'm still debating what to do about Mother's Day coming up.
My W is out for the weekend this weekend at BIL and her nieces Bday party. I miss my S1 terribly and again its breaking my heart.
Even though things have deteriorated to the point where we're both at 95%.where we want the D. W is forcing me to sell the house to move on with her life, and IMO, things have gotten so petty with the division of things, that I actually want to keep things seperate now. I can't nice her back, mean her back, etc. Other than a hug or two here and there, I haven't touched my w in 5 months. I really don't know if by doing this it is helping me or hurting me, but I need to stand on that principle that, if she's going to take things that far, then im going to act as if separated, and not give her the best of both worlds.
I want you to keep in mind that as they go down the process of moving away from you, even though they say they don't, they will be influenced by outside influences on what post S or D looks like, or what they want it to look like. ( friends, family, articles on internet, etc.) She went cold because she doesn't see a future with you, for whatever reason weather it be emotional, physical, behavioral, habitual, etc. So they are gauging things based on their current feelings, and can't make up their minds, but have acted enough to move things forward and BD us. Hence limbo land.
You seem like you have a pretty good handle on things. If she's going to have that attitude towards sex though, and flirting, to me it seems nothing more than an ego validation, that she still "has it" and is manipulating to gauge if you are plan b. Don't give into her BS temp checks or manipulation. But if you do decide to escalate, make sure you make it clear that it didn't mean anything. Hold your position until full R is on the table. When women are emotionally and physically attracted to you, sex is on the table. If they are not fully, they will use it to get what they want or manipulate you, to soften you up for another occasion for something they want, or just for their own validation.
Coming back around to behaviors and justifications. I wish "reading the signs" were as black and white for the reasons WAW'S or WAW'S leave MR. I'm sure most wives look at the marriage, not only for just love, but a total package. They test for things like, is he secure, does he provide, is he a good father, is he responsible, is he social, does he spend enough time with me, and family, are we still compatible? How does he make me feel?etc, etc... I can't help but identify with, that most of these women that are WAW kind of resonate to the Janet Jackson song "What Have You Done For Me Lately". Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong in my assessment and attitude. Some people here will 2x4 me and say I don't have enough empathy for women, their position situation and feelings, and how they got here in the first place. Quite the contrary. I do understand how they got here, and I do empathize with it. It's called having unresolved problems, and I get it. Every day more and more I start to experience what they experience before me, and I can understand their position and mindset. But me? Personally?... It still doesn't justify breaking up a M and family. But if they want to move on because their own independent future looks brighter to them than the M. Then I say have at it. I don't want someone that doesn't want me for life, attributes, faults and all. They want to validate all the feelings and reasons through IC, then I say let them, you can't control how they feel and why. So why worry about it? Just be aware of it. You do you, and make improvements for you. As far as the WW. Well y'all know it's limmerace and they are in Rebellion
There is one thing I am noticing though. With myself and in other people's situations. They will either take the initiative to make changes for themselves, and fail on the commitment end of those changes, or, they expect us to do all the changes while they remain the same, as if they are a God's gift to us. The latter scenario I find to be very selfish and arrogant, whether they want to admit it to themselves, or us, or not. I don't think that they realize, just as much as we don't realize, just how much sacrifice us men make for them, and for some, how much sacrifice they make as women. Just something to be aware of.
Keep doing what you are doing. Although some might advise you differently on here, it's ultimately up to you. As far as still doing things as a family "seperated" still on IHS.
Hey IHCLACS thanks for all the info. I am not all the way caught up with you sitch but am getting there. Yeah I agree with you, when she actually moves out in 2 weeks I do not plan on spending “family time” with her. I see that as cake eating. It was her idea to break up our family and a repercussion of this is no more family time. Obviously I want to do things for my son, but I am not going to be a happy family with a W who doesn’t want to be with me.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I am still "friend zoned" (Not a place a man should ever be with his W out of self respect IMO.)
Yeah that feeling [censored]. In my sitch currently I wouldn’t say I’m exactly friend zoned but it is a weird limbo of some sort. She has expressed she wants me around co parenting. We are having friendly conversations. But there has been a lot of flirting and even some sexual interactions lately. This was all non existent before I started DBing. If things continue toward friend zone, I think I would pull way back as I am not interested in being a friend.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
You seem like you have a pretty good handle on things. If she's going to have that attitude towards sex though, and flirting, to me it seems nothing more than an ego validation, that she still "has it" and is manipulating to gauge if you are plan b. Don't give into her BS temp checks or manipulation. But if you do decide to escalate, make sure you make it clear that it didn't mean anything.
Interesting points. Yeah I assumed most of this was a temp check. I think she may be considering me as a back up plan because her actions toward me have changed alot since I started DBing. Around BD I think I’m her mind, she viewed us as never going to work out, or that we would never have R again. Now that I have implemented all these 180s and PMA she has been making comments such as, “you are like a whole new man now”. I think she is coming around to the idea that I could be her plan B. Although I see it as progress, I definitely do not want to be anyone’s plan B.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
Coming back around to behaviors and justifications. I wish "reading the signs" were as black and white for the reasons WAW'S or WAW'S leave MR. I'm sure most wives look at the marriage, not only for just love, but a total package. They test for things like, is he secure, does he provide, is he a good father, is he responsible, is he social, does he spend enough time with me, and family, are we still compatible?
Yeah you are absolutely right. I think over our M I went from checking off all of her boxes to slowly losing check marks one by one. Eventually she realized how I was not checking these wants and needs of hers off and decided life would be better without me. 180s are great in this regard because it shows through actions that I can meet her expectations. Even if we do not R, I am already feeling like such a better version of myself and I feel this will really help me in the future.
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
There is one thing I am noticing though. With myself and in other people's situations. They will either take the initiative to make changes for themselves, and fail on the commitment end of those changes, or, they expect us to do all the changes while they remain the same, as if they are a God's gift to us. The latter scenario I find to be very selfish and arrogant, whether they want to admit it to themselves, or us, or not. I don't think that they realize, just as much as we don't realize, just how much sacrifice us men make for them, and for some, how much sacrifice they make as women. Just something to be aware of.
I think about this a lot. Although I mainly blame myself for the deterioration of our M, I know she absolutely has things she needs to work on and change too. There was a situation the other night that really shed the light on this for me: W and I were in bed drinking some beers. She had set her beer on the bed. I was actually laying the opposite direction from her and as I moved to lay the same direction as her, the bed was shaken and her beer spilled.
She was furious that I had moved and in doing so her beer spilled on the bed. She crossed a boundary I have made clear and was talking to me angrily and with disrespect. About how it was all my fault. I told her not to talk to me like that and that she shouldn’t have put the beer on the bed in the first place.
This got me thinking, if the roles of this situation were reversed, how would I have reacted? I am positive that I would take the blame for putting an open can on the bed and would have apologized and cleaned it. Her behavior in this situation was unacceptable to me. I haven’t really seen any changes for the better in her yet. I really hope she is able to look inward and improve herself because after this situation I was really thinking that I deserve better than this.
Haley quote : She was furious that I had moved and in doing so her beer spilled on the bed. She crossed a boundary I have made clear and was talking to me angrily and with disrespect. About how it was all my fault. I told her not to talk to me like that and that she shouldn’t have put the beer on the bed in the first place.
This got me thinking, if the roles of this situation were reversed, how would I have reacted? I am positive that I would take the blame for putting an open can on the bed and would have apologized and cleaned it. Her behavior in this situation was unacceptable to me. I haven’t really seen any changes for the better in her yet. I really hope she is able to look inward and improve herself because after this situation I was really thinking that I deserve better than this. End quote
Halzy good for you in enforcing that boundary. Its situations like these I am learning to handle differently as of last week. Here is a actual text from last week. W unintentionally misued her words in a text about a scheduling issue with S1 and her Dr's appointment last week. Granted i could have handled the situation a little bit better, but think I did pretty good.
She said "I watched you put it in your phone unless you were lying." She didn't mean it to sound accusatory, but she was also under the impresion I was screwing with her for not remembering. She didn't clearly give me an exact date, just mention, and she updated the whiteboard one day prior. I agreed on one thing she said about the trade/swap of days.
My response was:
"Either way more importantly I don't like the words lying or being accused of lying."
"What if I said to you? "Well unless you were lying?" How would you feel? How would you receive that?"
W:You're right, I would be offended W:I'm sorry for wording it that way, I can see how you could be offended.
I could put the whole text conversatation here but it would just take too long.
That was probably the first time in a very long time I have gotten an apology from her. Otherwise its been about her, her, her, her unhappiness, her goals, and objectives, her reasons of all the things im to blame for.
The purpose of this dynamic again is two fold. It creates a boundary, nips a reaction in the bud, and it puts the mirror back on them in realizing their treatment torwards you, without you becoming reactive.
I think about this a lot. Although I mainly blame myself for the deterioration of our M, I know she absolutely has things she needs to work on and change too. There was a situation the other night that really shed the light on this for me: W and I were in bed drinking some beers. She had set her beer on the bed. I was actually laying the opposite direction from her and as I moved to lay the same direction as her, the bed was shaken and her beer spilled.
She was furious that I had moved and in doing so her beer spilled on the bed. She crossed a boundary I have made clear and was talking to me angrily and with disrespect. About how it was all my fault. I told her not to talk to me like that and that she shouldn’t have put the beer on the bed in the first place.
This got me thinking, if the roles of this situation were reversed, how would I have reacted? I am positive that I would take the blame for putting an open can on the bed and would have apologized and cleaned it. Her behavior in this situation was unacceptable to me. I haven’t really seen any changes for the better in her yet. I really hope she is able to look inward and improve herself because after this situation I was really thinking that I deserve better than this.
Your situation is still very young. One of the key principles of Divorce Remedy is that if you focus on changing yourself, you can change your relationship, and you've already seen evidence that your interactions are changing as your behavior changes.
Personally, I feel that marriage is rarely 50-50. Sometimes one spouse is pouring more into the relationship than the other, and then in another season of life, it will be the other spouse giving more. It's expected that if a spouse is not sure they want to be in the marriage, they might not be interested in improving as a spouse. Again, it goes back to DR. One spouse can make a difference, even if the other isn't interested in working on things.
For me, there are two questions spouses should ask: 1. Am I committed to this marriage and to my vows? 2. Do have the emotional strength to stay in this marriage without damaging the core of who I am? (Living with a spouse who has a mental illness, or is highly critical, or struggles with addition can sometimes exceed the capacity that the other spouse has to deal with trouble and start to take down the other spouse. Leaving might be necessary in those cases.)
If the answers to those two questions are Yes, then stop worrying about whether your spouse is changing. Focus on improving yourself and your own relationship skills and being the best spouse you can be.
That doesn't mean pursuing when pursuit isn't welcome, or becoming a doormat, or being a Mr. Nice Guy. It means healthy emotional detachment, GAL, 180s, validation, just without an expectation that just because you are ready to work on the marriage now, that your spouse has to have the same timing. Maybe there has been (or will be) a time when she is working on it and you aren't.
Even now, years past our crisis, I find that if I start focusing on this thing my husband said or that thing he did, our marriage gets bumpy, whereas if I turn that energy to working on improving my own behaviors as a spouse, things get better. Stay on your side of the street.
(As for sex, in the absence of an affair, and as long as she is living in the house with you, I wouldn't avoid sex if she seems receptive. Sex and touch (if welcomed!) release hormones that encourage bonding.)
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
