180 Counterproductive?

[ovrrnbw]

I'd focus on slowing down, thinking for a second, and then giving her a brief but short reply. You are too wordy and it gives her the feeling that you are still desperate AKA not attractive.

"for example you sleep as far as possible from me and don't wear your engagement ring anymore."

When you say stuff like this it shows how desperate you are.... AKA unattractive. How can you turn this around?

[oops13]

You are right. I need to STFU more. I've gotten better, a lot better, but still not good enough obviously.

I guess I was offering evidence that I knew I didn't see trying in the flesh beyond the words. She asked "what does trying look like" more or less, so I told her why I felt that way.

I never want to talk about any of that with her again! I'm cringing now.

[SteveLW]

I can't help but wonder why she wants to go together when I've been fine with her going alone.

From looking at your thread, Steve, it seemed at first you kind of tried to buck the idea that yours was anything but cookie cutter WW. I think I'm in a similar boat, I don't want to think of it as cookie cutter because there is plausible deniability w.r.t the EA, and it's also plausible that she actually is trying through going to IC and given that she's insisted that she wants the marriage and wants to fix it. The IC saying (supposedly) that she's not ready for couples counseling yet because of her mental state is also a confounding factor. Her insistence that she does not want to separate or move out is a confounding factor.

I guess I keep coming back to this: what if this is honest and above board for the most part, and the vacation is an earnest attempt to connect away from the stresses of work and home? I've not resisted a bit each time separate vacation comes up, but she refuses to take it.

I'm also hesitant to be so wishy-washy about the vacation. A few weeks ago, we both wanted it. She talked to her IC about it. IC green-lighted so long as it's not stressful. I hate to keep changing my message. If I'm honest with myself, I do want to go with her as long as there's not some "just friends" label. I just can't be assured that she's being honest with me because all I have is words, and I'm trying to be aware of the fact that I'm looking for hope, that maybe she's trying to break out of the fog. Maybe shes wrestling with it because there is no way the OM is viable from what I can tell. I think its just a flirt/fantasy thing so far even at 6 months.

Shes had the opportunity to spring for separation, for moving out, never brought up divorce, and has never said shes considering those things unless it's under the IC-mentioning-it umbrella. So either it's more illusion and she's using IC as an excuse, or she really wants to try. it all comes back to two things for me though: ILYBINILWY, and "attractive but not attracted to you" which I guess goes back to respect as a man. Which makes me think maybe the rest of this just doesn't matter.

How do you know when they really are being honest that they want to try, anyways? Do they want to try before they are back "ILWY" ? 'is it tepid at first?

You will know when they are being honest and wanting to try when their actions are consistent along those lines for a LONG time. The next question most people ask is "how long is a long time?" 6 months+.

Yes I struggled with the idea that my WW was the typical one. Turns out she was. Yes there were some big differences in my W and most WWs. She still had told no one about wanting out except me. She was worried about how her family and my family would react. She has relationships with mutual friends and people in my family that she was worried about harming. We both are very active in our congregation so she was worried about the reactions there and the damage to relationships there. There was our D that she was afraid to have to tell. I was the initiator of BD, most LBSs get blindsided by BD. It was a LONG distance EA, not someone she worked with or saw regularly.

Despite all of that, typical DBing efforts were what worked in my sitch. I did a good job of GAL. I got better at detachment over time. And I was meticulous in not only instituting 180s but makings ure they were lifestyle changes and not temporary, "I just want to get her back" ploys. On the detachment, I saw in my sitch the pursuit-distance dynamic first hand. If I chased, she ran. If I backed off she came toward me.

We did do a a trip to a Marriage Retreat in the thick of our sitch. I was advised by coaches NOT to go. I did it anyway. And it did not go well. It was religious based and she was already trying to rebel against what she knew to be right. It was a Thursday-Sunday retreat, culminating in worship service on Sunday before heading home. At lunch on Saturday she blew things up by telling me I was free to pursue other women.......remember, we were on a MARRIAGE retreat. Not what I was wanting to hear.

At MC the next week she said the marriage retreat made her sad because it made her realize she was stuck. Yeah, not the result I was hoping for. Especially after the lunch blow up she actually started changing for the rest of the trip. She was more affectionate during the last part of the Saturday retrest sessions. We had a great dinner out that night. We realized our car had been burglarized and some pretty valuable things stolen while we were at dinner, but not until we were on our way home. I jumped in and helped her with getting it reported, commiserating, and I have to say we were an awesome team through the crisis. I also saw an instance of her starting embrace my 180s, when we had a light moment and she asked me "who are you?"

But I really think you need to temper expectations. IF you go on this vacation with her, assume she is going AS a friend, not as a spouse that is working on the MR. The reason I say that is because you can't believe anything she says. In my case with the marriage retreat, I think my W agreed because a couple at church asked us to go, and because later she could say "we even attended a marriage retreat!" Your W could very well used this vacation as the "last straw" argument. "We even went on a vacation together and things didn't get better." WASs/WSs do this type of thing all the time.

My fear is, like other posters here, you will get home from this vacation and she will BD#2 you. So if you go on this joint vacation, temper your expectations. Do not assume that, even if she is awesome on the vacation, that you are out of the woods upon return.

[oops13]

I could see that. I suppose the same could be said for her going alone and "finding herself" in her alone time too.

I really wish I could just detach! I have good and bad days, but the bad ones are all-consuming. I think "the odds" are creeping into my thoughts too...meaning I feel like I need to just admit that it's over. I feel like success (defined as her being in love again) in this situation is what, like 5-10% ? The desperation is not respecting myself.

[oops13]

She did look into a relationship fixing book recommended by her IC (didn't tell me, but I happened to see while she was showing me something on the computer). She's cuddling with me, ring is still on, and she's saying ILY, but she's also a liar. I worked in a question about something kinda casual that I knew as a test and she didn't skip a beat to deceive me. She's got IC today. I'm sure when she gets home there will be more garbage to sift through.

Right now I'm starting to think putting up with this at all is just a lack of self respect and maybe I should just want her gone. I can do better than this. I took vows, but she's at the line of breaking hers if it hasn't been crossed already.

[SteveLW]

She did look into a relationship fixing book recommended by her IC (didn't tell me, but I happened to see while she was showing me something on the computer). She's cuddling with me, ring is still on, and she's saying ILY, but she's also a liar. I worked in a question about something kinda casual that I knew as a test and she didn't skip a beat to deceive me. She's got IC today. I'm sure when she gets home there will be more garbage to sift through.

Right now I'm starting to think putting up with this at all is just a lack of self respect and maybe I should just want her gone. I can do better than this. I took vows, but she's at the line of breaking hers if it hasn't been crossed already.

oops, always within your power to decide to cut bait and run. However, I personally feel you should give it some time to work itself. General guidance is at LEAST a year. But it shouldn't be a year of sitting and waiting. GAL. 180s. Detachment. They all have a goal: self improvement, discovery, and awareness. So that your next relationship, whether that is with your W or someone else, has a chance of being more successful.

Do the work. Earn your way out of your marriage. Otherwise you will carry baggage and the same problems into your next R.

[ovrrnbw]

Don't let your fears guide you, fortune favors the bold. Right now you feel low, but at your core you are strong.

Before you pull the plug, face your fears with your sword in hand. Fight, don't run.

If she runs from the truth (her A) and chooses to divorce, you have slayed the dragon. If you divorce without looking your fears in the eye, you have run.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave,' his father told him.”

I won't judge you either way, but I do want to offer you hope.

[Ready2Change]

I worked in a question about something kinda casual that I knew as a test and she didn't skip a beat to deceive me. ...putting up with this at all is just a lack of self respect

It all depends on how big the deception is.


Cheating, OM etc, I would call her on the BS.

"We both know that is not true. When you are ready to tell me the truth I will listen" then walk away.

or "The Deceptions has got to stop."

Other things might require different response. When In doubt, do not respond.

[oops13]

Thanks, everyone.

Perhaps this is misguided and a mistake, but I'm trying to see what happens if I take the lead a little bit. This is a huge 180 for me in a way - I was always aimless, not fun, and indifferent. It seems a 180 on this will fit with some of the philosophy of being attractive to your wife, so I may try to attract her. When I am doing this, things are better.

So I've flirted with her last night and today and basically said "were going to do xxx" tomorrow and she seemed really excited about that. It's almost like she's wanting me to start leading. I think that's about the most important 180 I can do when I look back at our relationship - be the man and lead.

It might blow up in my face, but it's what I want to do for me honestly, just to challenge myself.

[LH19]

Oopsy,

What’s the deception? What is she lying about?