180 Counterproductive?

[SteveLW]

She had valid complaints with me from before all this in that I was stoic, aloof, not affectionate enough, weak, and most of all just a grumpy miserable person. I own that.

YOu should go look at what I wrote to si. After BD you have to be judicious in what you 180 on. Stoic and aloof are not things you need to 180 on, you need to be those things now. Do you really think you should start being affectionate now? Of course not. WAS: "I need space." Doesn't mean, "all of the sudden start hugging and kissing me all the time."

Grumpt and miserable, yeah 180 on that!

[oops13]

Thanks, Steve. You make an excellent point.

My replies had been choppy since I'd been on my phone, so sorry if if I've left information out or done a poor job of responding up until now.

Anyways, going to journal/mind barf to clear my head before work today. Definitely GAL went well over the weekend, we had a little bit of a test that I'd give myself a 50/50 on. She hinted at making plans with me and doing stuff with me over the summer (running and biking and hiking). I hung out with my bros, my family, and did a mountain bike race. She did a LOT around the house yesterday, so I thanked her, offered to cook, cleaned up real quick, asked her to make some stuff for me this week which she happily did. I told her I'd like to take all of the dogs on a family walk, and she seemed to just yield to my manner of saying that we were doing it. Made sure to stand tall and calm in the face of pain and her questioning some things I did this week. Once we got back home from taking the dogs out, she quite obviously texted the other person for a little while. I sat down to watch TV or read, she said she was going to watch TV or read, so I confidently patted the spot on the couch next to me and she came over and sat up against me. Eventually asked for a back rub, I told her I'd do it if she does mine after I lift the next day and she agreed. The back rub/massage was kind of sensual in a way without me trying. I'm much taller than her, so I was kind of enveloping her from behind and working on her back and legs. In a different world it could have led elsewhere. Eventually she'd had enough and we finished watching TV, then got in bed at the same time to read. Of course she slept on the opposite edge of the bed. I suspect a lot of this was to keep me on the hook after I did some things this week she caught wind of that spooked her into thinking I was leaving or starting to separate us some financially. I explained those without weakness/lying. I did tell her good night when we went to bed which was new. Felt weird, probably won't do that anymore. Did upper body work this morning in the gym. I'm about 10lbs away from getting abs if I have to resort to Tinder in long run, I guess.

I'm now seeing the wishy-washiness for what it is. She might have bilked me for a massage, but I also asked her to do some things for me and guided the afternoon for the most part with confidence. Forward progress. No "ILY" this morning from either of us.

In my head in the gym this morning I was thinking about the whole "alpha" and behavioral stuff mentioned here. She has told me twice now that she finds me physically attractive or even hot, but she is not "attracted to me" and this has been revised in her head too. I think this, along with the massive amount of weakness/manchild she dealt with for years plainly supports the idea that I need to change my behavior to be attractive. Physically, I'm tall, muscular, getting lean, attractive in general. In the past she asked things like "Why are you even with me?" and indicated that I'm the more attractive partner...until I let myself go for a while (mentally and physically) that is. I think I'm a good looking person that is definitely because of my now rusty/dormant social skills and attitude.

Her mental health is apparently really really bad right now, but I'm not sure if she's telling me this as cover or not. Her depression/anxiety/traumatic upbringing issues might be gas on the fire for the EA or whatever it is.

The worst thing in my head right now, however, is that it seems like every other post/sig I see this always ends up in divorce. Hard to be optimistic, even if I know I should be doing it for myself.

[sandi2]

Oh also yes I know the guy and see him a few times a week. Theyve definitely gotten too close and shes hiding the depth of her activity with him.

Is this a situation where you and your W are friends with OM and his W? In what capacity do you see him a few times a week?

[oops13]

We all work together, actually. I got a job in this department on a different team from OM. She was unhappy at work, so she started looking over here some in my department and OMs team had an opening. She didn't know him at the time. Their team took a chance on her (taking this job was a huge leap and she's been under incredible stress trying to learn) and he was assigned as her mentor. He did a great job teaching her...she's been in that job about 2 years now. Others around the office have even made jokes that they're a cute couple, etc. Eventually she started exercising with him, and sharing interests that she never got into with me like podcasts, talking about family, book club, he taught her how to play golf, etc. Now they flirt and talk a lot and shes putting energy into him and not me since late 2018. They did a half marathon together this weekend, and she told me she didn't want me to attend to support her. They're getting lunch together/for each other, bringing each other coffee, etc. from what I know but she's hidden all this from me. I'm reasonably sure shes confiding all of this to him (her IC, our frictions) and he's probably telling her to chase her feelings.

In the past, we've had dinner with him and his wife, watched their pets, been to their house to learn how to watch the pets, etc. He's also more "alpha" around here socially because of how our teams function. I'm not close to his wife or particularly close to him, and I think he doesn't like me and has told her I'm weird and probably undermining our relationship now. I used to be invited to happy hours from his team, now I'm not.

While I was miserable to be around, he was nurturing her.

[sandi2]

Her depression/anxiety/traumatic upbringing issues might be gas on the fire for the EA or whatever it is.

Tell us more about her traumatic upbringing.

[SteveLW]

Okay. First what you did wrong.

Do not invite her on the dog walk.

You: "Going to take the dogs for a walk."

IF she says nothing, THEN take the dogs for a walk.
ELSE IF she says "I'd like to go along." THEN say "OK." and let her go.

DO NOT ask her to go, or make it as if she is expected to go. That is pressure and pursuit.

Also, patting the couch next to you IS pressure and pursuit. Do not do that. If she chooses to sit next to you, fine. If she asks for a massage and you WANT to give her one, also fine.

You need to remove all pressure and pursuit. All of that would have been fine prior to BD, but since BD it needs to cease.

[oops13]

Her brother has a mental illness that makes him angry and he'll need care for the rest of his life. He tried to kill her. It broke her parents. They both phoned it in basically - dad and the brother were fighting constantly, mom quit and basically rotted. They quit working. Lived a lower class life with a messy, trashed house - basically stereotypical trailer park life. She withdrew to her room, read books, kept to herself. Shes introverted, socially anxious, etc.

When we got together, she was in REALLY bad shape and I had direction and confidence. I wasn't all that into it at first to be honest but thought she was a great person and worth the investment. I invested, thinking the grass is greener where you water it, and she turned out great. She went through a wave of trauma soon after we got together too. She almost died from alcoholism, was diagnosed with an incurable disease that will eventually ravage her potentially, her father died, our mutual friend and her best friend died. Just before we got together her boyfriend had cheated on her with her best friend too. I took her with me anyways and I was her rock. She's' really blossomed, but I've been struggling the last few years with real life.

The straw that broke the camel's back I think might have been the thing with her brother - she carries it, and we kind of waffled on having children (fear on my part) because odds are we'll have "her brother". She told me she'd kill herself if that happened, so we started looking into the scientific 30,000 dollar methods to prevent that late last year. She was excited. End of the year/early January I told her that I wasn't sure still and I think it crushed her spirit some and all of the resentment just flooded her. She really wanted children but didn't make it extremely clear I guess. I didnt pick up on the signs and was slow to come around to the idea.

[SteveLW]

oops, I would also highly suggest you stop focusing on her so much. I know it is hard. But everything you do, you look for a response. You get back from walking the dogs and you are focused on what she does (texting, etc). You are worried she manipulated you into a massage. You notice that neither of you said "ILY" this morning.

DBing, with one eye over your shoulder will never ever ever work. Yes she is trying to keep you attached. That is her goal. She wants her Plan B squarely in place because Plan A is not solidified. Her worst fear right now is that Plan A goes away and Plan B has moved on too. SO expect more temp checking, and trying to keep you on the hook. That is what future planning by WASs is all about. "If I talk about summer plans, what will he say? How will he respond? Will I see him squarely still waiting for me?"

DB for you. 180 for you (so that you are an awesome person for your next R, whether it is with her or someone else.). GAL, for you. Detach, for you. Whether or not she even acknowledges these changes are not. Do it FOR oops!

[oops13]

Thanks, Steve. 10-4. I've been ramping down, so I guess I need to keep ramping.

I admit I still love her so it is hard. I am getting closer every day, but unfortunately I tend towards anxiety and I have an incredibly active, detail oriented mind (this has served me incredibly well career-wise, but not so great for this situation).

[SteveLW]

Her brother has a mental illness that makes him angry and he'll need care for the rest of his life. He tried to kill her. It broke her parents. They both phoned it in basically - dad and the brother were fighting constantly, mom quit and basically rotted. They quit working. Lived a lower class life with a messy, trashed house - basically stereotypical trailer park life. She withdrew to her room, read books, kept to herself. Shes introverted, socially anxious, etc.

When we got together, she was in REALLY bad shape and I had direction and confidence. I wasn't all that into it at first to be honest but thought she was a great person and worth the investment. I invested, thinking the grass is greener where you water it, and she turned out great. She went through a wave of trauma soon after we got together too. She almost died from alcoholism, was diagnosed with an incurable disease that will eventually ravage her potentially, her father died, our mutual friend and her best friend died. Just before we got together her boyfriend had cheated on her with her best friend too. I took her with me anyways and I was her rock. She's' really blossomed, but I've been struggling the last few years with real life.

The straw that broke the camel's back I think might have been the thing with her brother - she carries it, and we kind of waffled on having children (fear on my part) because odds are we'll have "her brother". She told me she'd kill herself if that happened, so we started looking into the scientific 30,000 dollar methods to prevent that late last year. She was excited. End of the year/early January I told her that I wasn't sure still and I think it crushed her spirit some and all of the resentment just flooded her. She really wanted children but didn't make it extremely clear I guess. I didnt pick up on the signs and was slow to come around to the idea.

So adopt. There are no guarantees in life. I don't care if you spend $3 million. Do you both try to control everything so tightly?