Dealing with a complex MLC and/or Wayward Wife #2

[P_Jam]

Boundaries:
I will not be in an open relationship. I will not consider us 'working' on this while she is with OP. As we know she will want to cake eat <-- I know this intuitively as well. She'll want the stability of H/family as well as fantasy of OP. So it's about reminding her that I'm not an option right now. <-- and I know I have to show it through actions. Granted it was a short time, but before this interaction I was doing better at this.

Hopefully, there are multiple losses. But PA starts to go sideways? Kids/family impact? Realizes that we are equally responsible (or close) to the failure of relationship? could be any of these. The fact is: I DONT KNOW. I only hope and if it turns out that there is really no return on her side in that time, then I won't have the conversation. And hopefully I'm doing better at detachment and I don't feel as strongly about the need to have it.

[LH19]

Well PJ this is where I think a lot of your confusion and trouble is coming into play and I am going to be brutally honest with you. Number one we encourage you never state a boundary more then once. Number two there has to be consequences if the boundary is broken and number three the boundary has to be realistic. You are not an option right now. She is not working on the relationship. You asked her to move out to get a reaction out of her and it backed fired. Now she can tell everyone you asked her to move out. So you can allow her not to cake eat but it is not a boundary.

If PA goes south she will find another om. Realizing she is half of the blame is most likely years away. After living with someone for 13 years who admits he is a control freak, pouts when he doesn’t get his own way and made her feel like she was walking around on eggshells and spent his free time golfing with his buddies is going to miss that after 3 months? When now she has her place to herself half the time and can do whatever she wants and answers to nobody.
In the beginning she will enjoy her time away from the kids.

Oh yeah and btw she knows she can have you back with the snap of her fingers because you feel the need to vomit your feelings all over her because you need to talk. Do you think she gives a flying fuch about your feelings right now?

Sorry buddy that was harsh but I needed to paint the picture for you. I am trying to help.

[IHCLACS]

Sandi2: Did she smack her forehead and say, "Oh my gosh, I forgot! Thank you for reminding me".

Almost choked on my lunch laughing. Clearly Sandi understands their mindset and arrogance as WW and woman that is rebellious and has no respect for a LBH man, and understands how STRONG HIGHLY ATTRACTIVE MEN SHOULD ACT. Loved the sarcasm. Sounds like one of the alpha guys on constructiom job. Nice to see both perspectives, one of a woman who's been there, and one who clearly understands men.

[sandi2]

Continued from my previous post...................

I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her). My extended family is not in the area hers is, so my family birthday would have just been ME.

I know this has to be very difficult with your family members living long distance. My suggestion about birthday celebrations is to change how you view it. In other words, don't call it a "family birthday party". Instead, have a birthday with his friends, or go to a special place and plan great fun with the two of you. I have experienced loss in my life, and whenever you lose someone close to you.....you have to plan how to celebrate without them. The first year is hard, I won't lie to you. Finding new ways of celebrating does help, I think.

I did not want it to further deteriorate our relationship as it relates to the kids. That text (which was horrible) was going to cause this entire sitch to go in a bad direction as it relates to the kids and how/when we are together with them. It felt necessary to correct that.

I think I understand what you mean. Here's the thing, you are at her mercy with this mindset. Trying to be "together" with the kids when you are separated is not doing them a favor, IMHO. It only gets their hopes up that mom & dad are getting back together. Every time they see that mom & dad aren't getting back together, it causes fresh pain. So, why do that to your kids? She wanted to separate, so stop trying to feed a relationship you don't have. Next holiday or event, you need to have plans to celebrate without her. It doesn't prevent her from doing something with the kids on her time with them. She has to see the reality of living separately from her H. I don't mean that in a punitive way. I'm just saying that a WW has to see the result of her wayward decisions.

I just spent 3hrs with her today at the hospital going over the MRI results for S5 (tumor is back) - but it is benign and they do not want to do another surgery yet.

My heart goes out to all of you. It's never easy when you have a sick child. As for things not being black or white, let me try to help you clear up any confusion about this part. When it comes to your child health, both of you need to be united. But you have to keep your wits about it and not see it as meaning you've untied the MR. Also, understand that this three hour period was not a celebration. I'm sure she was glad you were there with her. Not every WW would feel the same, but in this case, I think your W was probably glad. When it comes to serious illnesses, tragedies, hospital emergencies, etc., I believe personal feelings and the sitch has to come in second place. In some WW situations, the H can't give an inch, but as long as both parents can act civilized. Every situation is a little different. There was actually a case where I did not give the same advice. The WW had left the H for another man. They had no children and she manipulated and played him like you couldn't believe. She would temp check, he'd fall for it, and then she would hurt him all over again. When one of his parents died, she tried to take full advantage of that situation, and I advised him not to invite her to be with his family. So, if I sound as if I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth.....I'm really addressing the individual case.

In today's interactions I was able to be 'happy', without pursuing. I was not distant either. I left there with more anxiety than I have had in 2-3 weeks, because it was so hard. It's difficult to explain how Love, Anger, disappointment, disrespect can all be so overwhelming at the same time. I also wanted to grab and hug her based on the news about S5 <-- I MISS THAT! And, I hate how I'm being rejected for such a low, selfish, irresponsible way of life. I felt toooo much empathy and felt the need to 'talk' - I DIDN'T but this is what happens when I'm not 'distant' when she is around. but I am working on it and I will get better!

I get it. I am a talker, too. When I was younger, I wanted to talk about every thing to my H, but it wasn't received by him, b/c he was not wired the same way. I would get my feelings hurt b/c he would not validate or even act as if he was listening. So, I learned to curtail a lot of my talks. Is it hard? Yes! But I adjusted. I still have my moments (lol). I'm just trying to tell you that a lot of your trouble right now is that you are missing the relationship you had, and wanted/needed. Trying to cling to that won't be effective in having a future MR with her. The couples I've seen reconcile after a separation, had a period where they detached as a couple (which means to live separated) and take that time and space from each other. Then later they could heal and work through their issues. I really believe you have to back away from the WW and stop trying to keep some relationship that she's torn asunder.

I have a hard time believing that she ONLY wants me as plan b - because she doesn't really have a plan A.

Listen, whenever a woman leaves her H b/c she doesn't have the same feelings any longer, he automatically becomes plan B. Whenever she chooses another lifestyle over being his wife........he automatically becomes plan B. How much plainer does she have to paint the picture to show you are not plan A? I'm sorry if my words are harsh, but you need to wake up and accept the fact you are nowhere close to priority in her heart or her life. That means you aren't her plan A. You've got to let go. The first step in getting her back is to let her go and stop making her your plan A.

I 100% get that I can't talk my way back into this relationship - but I also believe that there are ways to rebuild attraction other than JUST dropping the rope <-- although I do understand how important this piece is.

And yet......you continue to try to have R talks. This is not how you attract a WW! How do you see re-bu;ding attraction with a wayward wife? I don't know what other books you are reading or where you are getting this idea, but I am willing to bet it is not from someone who understands how a wayward operates. I have a library full of those type of books, and they are okay except in cases where the W left b/c of waywardness. I'm concerned that you are the one in fantasy land. Truth is, you still want to pursue her. You've done that since day one. Just b/c that's the way you feel.......doesn't mean that's the way it works.

One more thing and I'll stop. I suggest you post more on a regular basis for a while. There comes a point that most people back off, but I don't think the time has arrived for you just yet. It's just my two cents.

[AnotherStander]

P_J- count yourself lucky, you are getting gold-plated advice from the heavy hitters. LISTEN TO THEM.

I will not be in an open relationship.

This is a laughable "boundary" to your W. In her eyes she isn't in an R with you, open or otherwise. So she fully intends to breach this boundary at every opportunity with her GGW behavior. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Because a boundary is worthless without consequences. So you establish a boundary, your W tramples it and you do nothing. How do you think that makes you look to her? She already had no respect for you. Don't make it worse.

I will not consider us 'working' on this while she is with OP.

YOU work on YOU. You're still trying to work on an M that one of you sees as dead.

She'll want the stability of H/family as well as fantasy of OP. So it's about reminding her that I'm not an option right now. <-- and I know I have to show it through actions.

Yes, exactly right. I know it's difficult to implement but you've really got to let go of your constant desire to "straighten her out" through words and instead focus on your actions. She doesn't believe your words, and won't believe your actions until she sees them consistently for months and months.

Hopefully, there are multiple losses. But PA starts to go sideways?

Not on your radar. YOU and your KIDS are your concern. Let her sow her wild oats, you can't control her.

Realizes that we are equally responsible (or close) to the failure of relationship?

No, probably not for many months or (more likely) a year or even years.

I only hope and if it turns out that there is really no return on her side in that time, then I won't have the conversation.

The others have said this to you several times, but the ONLY convos you should have with her are kid-related unless and until the day in the distant future she comes to you with repentance and a humble heart asking forgiveness and wanting to work on things. But you have got to do a whole lot of detaching first.

[P_Jam]

I'm back - Update:
Had S5 (now 6) Birthday party at my house last night. Her parents, brother, cousins, her, myself and 2 sons.

I did just as I did previously at the hospital. Was happy (not distant) engaged her in simple/small talk but focused on the being the host of the party (food, cake,etc). Took a while for the cousins to get there so S9 was sad and disappointed as he wanted to play. So he asked me to play catch in the back yard while we wait, so I did. She again got to see a 180 in real action. I have been so much more present with my kids, I love it and I love for her to see it. My present for my son was his favorite of the night (which made me feel good) W immediately went on amazon and purchased same thing for her house (lol).

Party went well, all happy and comfortable. As everyone left I helped load the bags/presents into her car (it's her night with the kids). Kids were kicking the ball in the street. After helping her I just walked to the sidewalk by myself (while she was still loading) and watched the kids. <-- point, I made no 'special' connection in regards to loading the car or being close to her 1:1. Just being a gentleman and walked away.

She then joined me on the sidewalk where we had small talk. She thanked me for hosting and I said; "my pleasure" glad we could work this out.

She then came to me and grabbed me for a hug. I assumed it was a simple friendly hug and gave her a quick one back and started to pull away. She held on and pulled me in for a long hard hug and whispered "I miss you". I just simply said "Yep, I miss you too" and then ended the hug.

I will see her again on both Saturday and Sunday. Saturday for Son's football games then on Sunday for S6 "friends" birthday part at bouncy house. Sunday will probably be a little odd as all her close friends with kids will be there and it will be the first time I have seen them all since S. I'm sure I will get lots of hugs and "how are you doing". I know that some of them know a bit of the details (PA). I plan to be upbeat confident and say: "I'm good, still surprised this is how she wants to end it, but I refuse to let this define me, so I will be fine".

although I have made some mistakes with the last relationship conversation I still have been very diligent in not texting or calling her (aside from the one call regarding birthday). I let her come to me for ALL communication. She texts me at least twice a day. It is still just about the kids - but I do not initiate anything to her unless it's NECESSARY. I'm getting better. Even with the hug and the "I miss you" I was not as shaken up last night after she left. I know I felt good because she said it, but logically I continued to tell myself "it doesn't matter - you're still plan B" Just need to get through this weekend and we don't have a lot scheduled to be together anymore (other than Saturday morning football). So will continue with NC.

Couple of question for the experts:
1. Next week will be tough on me as well. Our anniversary is 5/5. She will have the kids. Do I do/say ANYTHING on this day?
2. Is me being plan b in her head - overt? Meaning, is she really overtly manipulating me to feel more comfortable while searching for Mr. Right or is possible she is still trying to take this time/space to reflect and figure things out? Is my empathy for her just more NGS? Sooo hard to be happy but also be somewhat distant when she is coming to me. I get it, probably just a temp check - but so hard to balance. Did I respond appropriately?

[sandi2]

1. Next week will be tough on me as well. Our anniversary is 5/5. She will have the kids. Do I do/say ANYTHING on this day?

You are going to do whatever falls in line with your nice guy image anyway, so I don't know why I bother to answer. Don't send/give her a card. Don't go out to "celebrate". Don't go out as family. Don't have dinner together. Don't buy her anything. If she initiates a text and says something about it, then respond in a non-mushy way. That's all. This is another opportunity for her to have a tiny glimpse of reality, if you would let it happen.

2. Is me being plan b in her head - overt?

Absolutely!

Meaning, is she really overtly manipulating me to feel more comfortable while searching for Mr. Right or is possible she is still trying to take this time/space to reflect and figure things out?

Is she still joining her friends and acting like a GGW, staying out in bars till the wee hours of the morning? She is not trying to take time/space to reflect and figure things out. She knows how to work you, and she's going to continue as long as you allow it........just in case she has no other options left and has to return to you. I'm talking about finances, physical help, or most anything but feeling in love. WW's return home when it suits them, and not before, unless they get their eyes opened and feel remorse.

Is my empathy for her just more NGS?

Do you really feel empathy for her? This type of sitch is hard for a H to even believe that his W could change this drastically. I mean, you love the girl you M and don't want to see her go. That's understandable. Where your NGS comes into play is like the birthday party, for example. You were the perfect host, the perfect gentleman, etc. None of that behavior was hard for you, b/c you are a nice guy. What would be hard is to tell her there will be no more joint celebrations.......or harder still.....is to just not do it. I'm not telling you to call her up and say it, I'm just using this as an example. Men with NGS believe they can nice the WW back into an intimate MR, and they can't bring themselves to toughen up. They are afraid it will push her further away. BTW, there was nothing wrong in how you conducted yourself at the party. I want you to understand what I'm saying. It was the fact you allowed her to manipulate you into having the party there in the first place. Only, she really didn't have to manipulate, did she? She just let you know that's what she wanted, and you did it. So, if she says she thinks the family should at least go out and eat to acknowledge the anniversary, how will you handle it?

Sooo hard to be happy but also be somewhat distant when she is coming to me. I get it, probably just a temp check - but so hard to balance.

If you have to say "probably just a temp check", are you really getting it? Remember that she wants to keep you engaged to a point. She has to do keep you attached, in order to secure you as her backup plan. (That's why WW's want to know if the H is seeing anyone, and all about his personal life. She has to keep tabs on him.) She only wants you on her terms, not yours. She doesn't want you around when she is partying with her friends, or out with OM. If she has anything else better to serve her, then she won't go to you. That's the plain truth. She is a wayward W trying to keep one foot in both world. And, you are helping her. As long as you enable her, the wayward behavior could last until she settles down with some other dude. Then what will you do? Cause here's the thing. She can still manipulate you, even if she's with someone else. Whatever she wants you to do, you'll try to please her. Even if you get M to someone else. We've all seen how some XW's can manipulate after her H has D and M again. Some guys never get away from it, b/c they never figured it out.

[LH19]

PJ,

I pretty much agree with everything Sandi said and make the comment that if she truly missed you after 2 weeks she would have never left. I think you handled everything pretty well.

Time and space buddy time and space.

[ovrrnbw]

Pj,

I wouldn't say anything about the anniversary. I didn't last year and my W got to wonder if I cared or not. And even if your W acknowledges the anniversary or wants to see you on it, it doesn't mean she's done with GGW. That's what happened to me last year and I regretted opening myself to that without dealing with her long term commitment to our marriage. So I think you can say, in a detached way, that you're ok not recognizing the anniversary while her commitment is not there. But I wouldn't go telling her this out of the blue or anything.

[IHCLACS]

PJam let me put it to you this way. I'm just going to use this as an example and analogy.

If you were my personal friend and business partner, and I lured you into doing business with me as a partner in the beginning for the first 10 years, and we signed a contract, but also had a verbal commitment to one another on a friendly handshake, a good word and faith, that we would continue to do business well into the future for decades. We had trust in one another. We had a lot of good times, a lot of company parties, good clientele, and made a lot of money for everyone. We were happy with the way we conduct ourselves and enjoyed the fruits of our labor. We were friends and business partners.

Then one day one of us discovered that the other partner became an alcoholic and drug addict. They were caught skimming off the profits for themselves, and they were slowly but surely stealing clientele away, and forming their own alternate business for themselves. Furthermore the other partner was using the company resources available to them to purchase whatever they wanted. Eat whatever they wanted, room-and-board wherever they wanted. Fine hotels expensive dinners, etc. But because one party couldn't prove all this in a court of law and terminate the other partner, because the other partner broke their commitments and trust, but they were still legally forced to do business together because of contract.

Do you really think one person is going to be calling the other out to a dinner party anytime soon? Or have a lunch break and a beer or a round of hoops, or a game of racquetball or golf at the country club with them? I hope the answer would be an astounding no and contact would be as very limited and strictly business as possible.

A person walking away from a marriage is no different than the situation above.

You hold out on that person as much as possible doing with only absolutely necessary transactions and limited communication as possible under contract. You want to have nothing to do with them and you keep yourself focused on you, your business, and the people that support you, and help you grow it.

It is only when the person who has had all these flagrant violations, goes to AA meetings or 6 step program, admits they have a problem, completely breaks down in caves, restores All the Monies and clients that they embezzled, and comes to you with a contrite heart, with full humility and sincerity, and the willingness to attempt to be trusted again in time through their actions words and deeds on your terms, after they restore what's rightfully owed to you.

You hold out to the end if there ever is an end? But you keep growing your business moving in your direction no matter what you keep moving forward without them until they demonstrate full-hearted repentance and ask for forgiveness. No half-hearted attempts are allowed.

Now do you understand how to conduct yourself, and what these temp checks really are? And what cake eating really is? Let them go. If they broke their commitments, if their hearts are not in it? Then why should yours be? Your time is valuable, your money is valuable, your assets are valuable, and your integrity and reputation is valuable. Your high clientele is the social proof of that and of quality, because you know what you and your business are worth.

You acknowledging or going to an anniversary dinner with the WW is like the good business partner trying to have dinner with the other bad business partner who was stealing from them, and wants to embezzle, and wants everything to themselves, their way, all the time. And you are the one that is initiating contact to make amends, and saying please forgive me when you have done nothing wrong. You dig?