Dealing with a complex MLC and/or Wayward Wife #2

[P_Jam]

Also LH is giving you solid feedback. Dude knows his stuff. And you are bucking against that feedback. Why?

Well first I'm NOT bucking against the feedback. This sh*t is NOT EASY!

I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her). My extended family is not in the area hers is, so my family birthday would have just been ME. Therefore the fact that she TOOK it away from me because of a text that I shouldn't have sent - I wanted to save this situation. If it wasn't for the text and we were just talking/planning the birthday party - I get it. not with her, but I did not want to feel responsible for this AND I did not want it to further deteriorate our relationship as it relates to the kids. That text (which was horrible) was going to cause this entire sitch to go in a bad direction as it relates to the kids and how/when we are together with them. It felt necessary to correct that.

I don't mind the 2x4's - I do appreciate them. That being said; I do have a hard time believing that everything is SOOOO black and white. You'll say I'm wrong, and that my situation is not unique - I would agree it's NOT unique, but I'm also not 100% convinced there is ONLY 1 WAY to skin this cat. I have/will make mistakes. Per you, this may have been a pretty bad one. I still think it was 'decent'. I'm LEARNING. I just spent 3hrs with her today at the hospital going over the MRI results for S5 (tumor is back) - but it is benign and they do not want to do another surgery yet. Wait a year and see what happens. So could have been better, but definitely could have been a lot worse. In today's interactions I was able to be 'happy', without pursuing. I was not distant either. I left there with more anxiety than I have had in 2-3 weeks, because it was so hard. It's difficult to explain how Love, Anger, disappointment, disrespect can all be so overwhelming at the same time. I also wanted to grab and hug her based on the news about S5 <-- I MISS THAT! And, I hate how I'm being rejected for such a low, selfish, irresponsible way of life. I felt toooo much empathy and felt the need to 'talk' - I DIDN'T but this is what happens when I'm not 'distant' when she is around. but I am working on it and I will get better!

I have a hard time believing that she ONLY wants me as plan b - because she doesn't really have a plan A. Now, I'm going to take your advice and I'm going walk this tight rope between no pursuing and possibly initiating a conversation in 2-3 months. The good news for all of you... I have 2-3 months to change my mind. So I will still be looking for a lot of support here on this board. I'm not bucking your feedback and I mean no disrespect - but some of us may just have to be 'us' in some ways. I've learned to trust my gut a lot, and although you all have taught me that my gut is not right all the time during this situation - I'm not convinced its ALWAYS wrong either. I 100% get that I can't talk my way back into this relationship - but I also believe that there are ways to rebuild attraction other than JUST dropping the rope <-- although I do understand how important this piece is.

Re dating:
I get it. My IC counselor agrees with you as well. However, you ask: Do I want to R or do I want to date? The truth is.. am I really expected to know the answer to this question right now? With what my WW has just done to me and our R - I do have to question what my real motives are for wanting her back right now. Is it because I just don't want to lose her? Or is it because I'm scared? Or is it because I REALLY WANT HER?? I DON'T KNOW RIGHT NOW!! I may be making this more complicated but it feels good to make connections with other females that are going through similar situations. It does not have to be sexual, and I admit that I'm taking a risk in regards to my will power if opportunity were to present itself.. But this can also be part of dropping the rope. Frankly, I have just as much to figure out as my WW right now. Furthermore, I fully understand not getting someone else involved for their sake. I have 2 female friends now that are going through similar situations. We have openly discussed how we are not ready for a relationship. And everything to this point has been platonic, and everyone knows that none of us are ready. I'm just smart enough (or dumb enough) to know that with this sort of connection it is possible for something to happen.

[Yail]

P_Jam,

I tend to agree with you that not every situation is so black and white, and you know your world better than any of us do. I do think the framework of keeping some of the "rules" of DB in the front of your mind does help though, especially during this early learning phase. Later on when you're much more calm and truly more detached you can look at whether being so "rigid" is best for you. But right now you're very close to the situation.

Emotions are high. We get that. So taking a step back and saying less will likely be a good way forward.

Remember that if you don't know what to do - doing nothing (and SAYING nothing) is a valid option. It doesn't feel natural at first. If I might offer one suggestion of something to work on, this would be it. Say less.

I think the space will continue to help you. I hope it does.

[P_Jam]

Thanks Yail. I too agree. I'm really not trying to argue that my talk was really that good. Only that the circumstances that caused it to happen felt unavoidable to me. It also feels good when I feel like I'm making SOME connection with her. There really was no arguing. Just both of us stating our side and generally both of us validated each other (me more than her of course).. I know.. she's just lying manipulating and this is exactly why I'm getting the 2x4's. I'll just say - I don't think the talk was good enough to be excited for another one. Just that it only set me back personally a little. As it draws me back into her - but I don't really believe it hurt my sitch at all right now. I think it helped as is saved the opportunity for us to continue to be able to be in the same room together as the kids not only for this birthday but moving forward - as she was about to completely pull all of that away. I will not give her this power again by attacking her as I did.

[SteveLW]

P_Jam, yes every sitch has it's own idiosyncrasies. Yes there is no one size fits all solution to every sitch. I agree with that. However, what I am trying to get you to see is that your previous post had way too much reaction and way too much impulse for the overall good of your sitch, and for you. Everything from the text, to the panic of saving the party, to the asking the woman for her phone number. Those are red flags that you may need to really step back and ask yourself honestly "am I in control of myself, or am I flitting around with every breath of the breeze?"

P_Jam, I get it. I was where you were. I was looking at everything from cheating myself to make her know how it feels, to turning the blame around on her for things, to withholding money and support, to kicking her out on her butt, to.....you get the point. I was willing to do what EVER work. No matter what it was.

But then I found this place, and people like sandi, AS, and LH all were huge helps to talk me down from ledges. My only advice for the go forward is to please come here before you "react". Try to live by the motto "I am going to give a thought out response, not react". Kind of like you did at the hospital. Well done on that by the way! And while it was hard (and I get it, I was there too), and while you had stress afterward because this stuff isn't easy, it will get easier as you continue to find your temperance and control your urges.

One last point on the dating. One of the big reasons I advise LBSs to really consider it carefully, and proceed with caution, is because in 10-15 years form now, when your sons are 20-24 years old and start asking questions, you want to be able to look into their eyes and say: a) you were above the fray (you didn't respond to your W in kind), and b) you did everything in your power to save thing with their mom, and c) that you handled yourself with grace and dignity. I've seen so many cases where a spouse cheated, and even left their marriage for the AP. But then when the LBS moved on with someone else while they were still technically married, the WAS spun it that the LBS "cheated too". Again, impulsively this seems right (meeting other women) since your W has fired you as her H. However, there are right ways and wrong ways to go about it, and for the sake of your kids you should error on the side of caution in trying to do everything the right way.

Oh on the "bucking", I said that because when LH gave you some objective insight, you dug in and went into defensive mode. It is okay to be wrong and make mistakes in this. As you said, this stuff IS hard. I bucked the advice here myself lots of times justifying my impulsive reactions. Read my threads and you will see I was FAR FAR FAR from the perfect DBer. But one thing I did was really consider the support, guidance, and feedback I received here and I highly credit that support, guidance and feedback for saving my marriage. But more importantly for saving myself!

[LH19]

PJ,

First off I am really sorry to hear about your son and I know this is a really difficult time for you.

This sh*t is NOT EASY!

That is the under statement of the year my friend lol!

I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her).

I think it is good to do birthday parties for the kids together. It shows the kids that you can still be together in the same room and no be uncomfortable. That will make them more comfortable with the arrangement.

In today's interactions I was able to be 'happy', without pursuing. I was not distant either.

Perfect! Keep it up!

I felt toooo much empathy and felt the need to 'talk' - I DIDN'T but this is what happens when I'm not 'distant' when she is around.

You need to definitely fight that need to talk. If she wants to talk you will know.

I have a hard time believing that she ONLY wants me as plan b - because she doesn't really have a plan A.

Make no mistake about it, you are plan B right now. Just because she doesn't have a solid plan A right now doesn't matter. In fact it is worse. The fantasy of finding the perfect prince that is going to wash all her problems and unhappiness away is actually worse. Real men have flaws, fantasy men do not.

Now, I'm going to take your advice and I'm going walk this tight rope between no pursuing and possibly initiating a conversation in 2-3 months.

If you initiate a conversation in 2-3 months I can pretty much guarantee you will not like how it goes and you will reset your clock back to zero.

The good news for all of you... I have 2-3 months to change my mind. So I will still be looking for a lot of support here on this board. I'm not bucking your feedback and I mean no disrespect - but some of us may just have to be 'us' in some ways.

PJ, if I took offense to people on here not following my advice I would have quit giving it years ago lol.

I've learned to trust my gut a lot, and although you all have taught me that my gut is not right all the time during this situation - I'm not convinced its ALWAYS wrong either.

Everything about this is counter-intuitive that is why the advice is always opposite of what your gut tells you.

I 100% get that I can't talk my way back into this relationship - but I also believe that there are ways to rebuild attraction other than JUST dropping the rope <-- although I do understand how important this piece is.

There are ways to build attraction. Be friendly, always look your best around her, be funny. be confident, look her in the eye when speaking to her, validate her feelings. But be scarce. Scarcity creates value. Where I think you are wrong is there is a difference between attraction and connection. You can be attractive to her but you can't reconnect with her while she is sleeping with other men. If your therapist tells you you can, then it is time to find a new therapist.

With what my WW has just done to me and our R - I do have to question what my real motives are for wanting her back right now. Is it because I just don't want to lose her? Or is it because I'm scared? Or is it because I REALLY WANT HER?? I DON'T KNOW RIGHT NOW!!

Its probably a combination of all of these things. Objection breeds obsession and as humans we want what we can't have. Sounds like you spent a lot of time avoiding her out playing golf. There must have been a reason why? Of course you are scared. I am sure thoughts of Can I handle the kids alone? Can I handle the house alone? Will I find someone better then my ex? These are a normal feelings.

We will help you through this and we expect mistakes. Just try to minimize them as much as possible.

[SteveLW]

PJ,

I understand that the birthday party probably didn't NEED to be at my house with her, but it was already set up previously we both agreed (I liked it for the kids, not her).

I think it is good to do birthday parties for the kids together. It shows the kids that you can still be together in the same room and no be uncomfortable. That will make them more comfortable with the arrangement.

Agree 100%. However, P_Jam my concern was over your approach to this. Anytime you have an urge to push for something like the joint birthday party, ask yourself "is this pressure and/or pursuit? Is this a hill worth dying on? Or should I proceed according to her wishes and not make an issue of it this time?"

Of course this is all a moot point, because if you hadn't made the mistake of the text you wouldn't have had to try to save the party.

[sandi2]

She has only been out for 2 weeks. So i know there is a lot of time - but where is the balance between DB and IC suggestions, as well as re-establishing attraction?

Some of us have tried to answer that question, but you don't want to listen.......or you want to do it your way. I think you don't have a clue as to how to attract her. You see it as pursuing, and that is far from attracting. You need to be a man who is not focused on a woman behaving like GGW and who is window shopping for men. You shouldn't be having text conversations with her, except child related issues. You shouldn't share family events/holidays. You are separated, so live as separated. You are still trying to talk her back into the relationship.

What is not "balanced" is when she came to your house and you went to the bedroom and closed the door. It could appear as if you are hiding out, and that is not what a man does in his own house. If living under the same roof and separated, then that might be seen differently, but when you are physically separated and she drops by the house, don't run to another room and close the door. You don't have to entertain her, but neither should you go to another room and close the door. Yes, LBH's seem to have a hard time balancing. Can't you just focus on not pursuing? Can't you be polite when she comes to your house, as if she was just someone in the neighborhood that dropped by? Can you not be emotionally detached without being rude? Do you know how that picture looks? If not, then think of her as if she was an elderly lady who came by the house. How would you treat her?

IC says that I need to be careful as coming off to WW as if I'm "completely done". He's concerned that she will take this as more of the same (since BD issue is = neglect) and provide her more reason to just move on. Also how can you rebuild attraction if always distant.

She did not separate to work on the MR. You cannot "rebuild" attraction while she continues to disrespect you. This is what you don't seem to get in your head. A wife will not feel sexual attraction/desire for a H she disrespects. That's how she was designed. So, you can knock yourself out trying to chase after her to make her see what a catch you are, but as long as she doesn't respect you as a man, she's not going to have loving feelings for you. That is the nature in this WW dynamic and the only way to change is to follow the advice we given you since day one.

WW has always been friendly through the entire process face to face, with kids and $ settlement, as well as parenting plan. Still a lying cheater behind my back, but she has not portrayed a lot of the rude/mean characteristics of many other WW ive read about. <-- I know some will say this doesn't matter. But for me it's 'concerning' because I either let her have a little 'cake' or I come off as the rude/mean one.

Not sure what she or you consider rude/mean, but you don't have to show that side. Even if you need to decline or refuse something she wants, you can do it in a polite manner. Maybe you just need to get your focus off cake for a while, if it's causing you to act weird.

At this point I"m feeling like I've clearly done something wrong.................................

So I explain that the pictures were necessary as I could not keep looking at her face (they were triggers for me). I explained that I replaced every picture I could to make sure the kids did not notice any holes (which they didn't). I explained that I'm not trying to manipulate just do what is best for me.

Talk, talk, talk, talk. Explain, explain, explain. She fired you as her H, so why are you still playing the role? I'll bet that's what you did throughout the M. Instead of asking you, she would get upset, try to punish you until you decided you must have done something wrong, Then, you would explain your actions, so she wouldn't be upset. But things are different now. She isn't living as your W, and has broken up the home. She moved out of the house and you have a right to do whatever you want inside your house. You are so scared she will think you are moving on, that you've got to explain every little thing you do. As a WW, she actually needs to be concerned that you are moving on without her. If she feels she is truly losing you in her life, it has a way of distracting her from her initial purpose of wanting out of the M. In other words, it has a way of making her reconsider. If he plays his cards right, it can lead to her having some respect for him. Why? B/c nobody knows better than a WW that a man should not tolerate her sh't. So, when he stops the chase and moves on.......it sparks a little respect.

In my explanation of pictures and Bingo night I explain to her how she has hurt me deeply and even though I do like to see her and have her around form SOME events, it is still very difficult as I know you are sleeping with other people! I explain that it's too early for me to act 'normal' around her.

What part of no relationship talk do you not understand? You are shooting yourself in the foot every time you do this. When you are together, and the W is not wayward, then you can explain things, if needed. But you are not together now. She is wayward, and we've tried to tell you how you can't handle the sitch as if she was a "normal"
loving wife. As a wayward, she will try to manipulate and punish you, etc. Maybe she did that when she lived with you, but it's time to cut those puppet strings (whether she tried to control, or you did). You say she's not as bad as some other WW's, but maybe that's b/c she has mostly gotten what she wants. As long as a WW gets what she wants, she will be "friendly". If you don't play along by her rules......... just sit back and watch her in action.

I also felt like we had a decent talk as I was able to remind her that I'm hurt, ok but still hurt. Re-establish my boundaries that I would like to 'work' on this but not while OP are still around.

Did she smack her forehead and say, "Oh my gosh, I forgot! Thank you for reminding me".

She has only been out for 2 weeks. So i know there is a lot of time - but where is the balance between DB and IC suggestions, as well as re-establishing attraction?

IDK what all your IC is saying, but if you have to ask how to balance what the IC is saying and what DB says, then maybe you need to decide to let one of them go. What I mean is that if it's causing more confusion than it's helping, let something go. I hope you won't let DB go, but that's your choice. We can try to help you, but at the end of the day it boils down to when you get fed up and have had enough of her waywardness and moving on with your life.

[P_Jam]

LH, Steve, Sandi,
Please know I do appreciate you taking the time to continue to counsel me even when it seems I'm not listening. I promise I do not mean to ignore you. As this is so counter-intuitive and I'm a very intuitive person (always have been) it just makes me look thick. I'm not.

I don't disagree with ANYTHING above accept maybe the timeline - and admittedly this may only be denial.

In defense of IC, he agrees with 99% of everything I have shared in regards to advice from this board. Accept the timeline. His only disagreement is that it may be possible to break the fog sooner through openness and vulnerability. That being said; I've already informed him that I trust the board more in regards to current feedback and I don't believe that any talk can happen until she wants to come back to me (at least a little). To clarify, we all agree that there has to be some loss and recognition (her coming to me) from her side before any openness and vulnerability. DB says that this can't happen until full/complete u-turn by WW. So, there are a lot of things that can happen either way in the next 3 months. That is why I'm holding off to test the waters between DB and IC. And I'm sure we will talk about it multiple times between now and then. I have more important things to deal with in IC (NGS).

The talk: I do agree. I would not have had the talk and really did not initiate it (or at least didn't mean to). The call was originally ONLY to discuss birthday (which I explained above). She drew me in with the pictures, etc. Having that talk saved the birthday and at least the next 15-30 days of interaction with her in regards to the kids. <-- so I'm just saying it seemed worth it for this. The fact that the call 'felt good' to me in regards to re-setting boundries and reminding her how much she hurt me - I realize was wrong and really not good overall. No matter how I felt at the time, it didn't help. Point taken.

In hindsight its very possible that she went this route (not only because of the text) but because I had been doing a decent job of DB'ing the last . Obviously the pictures affected her, same with the door closed (she's wondering). She may or may not have said anything if didn't send that horrible text. She did not lead on that ANY of this bothered her (or was even noticed) when we were spending time together that day. She just really hit me where it hurts... with having the kids in the middle. And I gave her that power by sending the text.

I also just know that 'letting go' is going to be very hard for me in general. Maybe harder than others. In crisis I can be a bit controlling (duh). That being said; I"m having a very hard time figuring out how/if I was controlling in our relationship. It was not one of her mentions and even though I know I try to control things I really cant seem to isolate where I was this controlling in the R (other than NGS) covert contracts, pouting, unavailable - but generally I do not believe I controlled her (like I want to now). Anyway... working on it all!

Thanks again!

[LH19]

PJ,

You mentioned restating your boundaries. What are these boundaries?

Also, what kind of loss is she going to feel within 3 months?

[SteveLW]

P_Jam, at least you acknowledge all of this. That is huge. You can't change what you don't acknowledge. So while I am still not sure you are saying you want to change some of this, or any of it, you at least acknowledge where you have shortcomings and struggles.

In hindsight its very possible that she went this route (not only because of the text) but because I had been doing a decent job of DB'ing the last . Obviously the pictures affected her, same with the door closed (she's wondering). She may or may not have said anything if didn't send that horrible text. She did not lead on that ANY of this bothered her (or was even noticed) when we were spending time together that day. She just really hit me where it hurts... with having the kids in the middle. And I gave her that power by sending the text.

This reminded me of the exchange my WW and I had early in our sitch. She had this grand plan a foundation on her getting a job, getting an apartment, and us getting D'd. But on top of that she built a fantasy of me keeping the house. She wanted none of my money or support. My D would be living at the house with me primarily. With our D spending the night at her place sometimes on the weekend. My WW would still have a key to come take care of the dogs and making dinner a few nights a week at the house for us as a family.

At one point I took her pictures down and closed the MBR door (not literally, but figuratively based on what you did). I did this by telling her that A) we would be selling the house and splitting the equity down the middle. B) I would be moving in with a friend of mine. C) All of our assets including retirement accounts, money in the back, etc would be split down the middle. We would have 50/50 custody. I would pay child support based on income disparity. She balked at all of this.

I looked her right in the eye and said "This is fair. We've been married for almost 19 years, you are entitled to half of everything." She said: "But I don't want you to sell the house." I responded that it wasn't fair for her to go off and start a new life and that I was expected not to do the same.

It was long after that that she returned to the MR and we moved into piecing. Did that play a part in her decision? I think it did. I think the fact that life would change dramatically for all three of us was a dose of reality. That I was talking about moving on with my life post D and starting over was a dose of reality (IE no cake eating for her). That she would still be a mother 50% of the time and couldn't pick and choose when she wanted to play W and mother was a dose of reality. That she would get half of all our assets (we are very blessed) was something she felt she didn't deserve because she was "destroying lives" (her words, not mine).

So the fact that you removed the pictures and started closing the door is fine. Just try to be better are responding to her about those decisions: "Its not fair for you to go off and start a new life and expect me not to do the same." Say it straight-faced, with no emotion. Simply matter of fact.