Not Sure Where This Is Going

[SteveLW]

I understand the premise that, as a LBS, you have to make yourself stronger and more self-reliant, and that doing that might draw WS back to you or it may not, but it's important for you to do regardless. Getting to a point that you don't care if your wife has a gangbang with 100 seems like a really unhealthy place to be in a marriage. You just said you wouldn't able to stand your wife hooking up with even one other woman, so it really shows how different detachment and DB is from how people would feel in a healthier marriage. It's like she can't check back in until I've just about checked out myself.

Yes, being detached is difficult, no one here would deny that. Notice, I said that finding this out would have no effect on you emotionally. It doesn't mean you don't care. This is why getting a good understanding of detachment is so important.

Let's play a game. Let's put the hypothetical into better perspective:

S85's WW: "Can we talk, I have something I need to tell you?"
S85: "OK."
S85's WW: "Last night I went to a hotel and had a gangbang with 100 other people."
S85: "I see."
S85'2 WW: "I just thought you should know."
S85: "Thank you for your honesty. Obviously this is not something I can tolerate. I will expect you to be moved out of the MBR by time I am ready to go to bed tonight."
S85's WW: "So you are done with me?"
S85: "I am not ready to answer that right now. This is a lot to process and I need some time to sort out how I feel about this. However, I cannot share my bed with you because you have violated the marriage."
S85's WW: "But I don't want to move out of the MBR, can't we discuss this further."
S85: "I understand how this is upsetting, but this is a necessary step until we can decide how to proceed."
S85's WW: "I KNEW YOU'D OVER REACT TO THIS! IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT ANYWAY! I HATE YOU!"
S85: "I can understand how this could make you feel that way."
S85's WW: "BLANK YOU! I AM SO DONE WITH THIS MARRIAGE! I WANT A DIVORCE!"
S85: "So I am hearing that you feel that this is not salvageable. I can understand that. I am not sure how I feel about it though and need more time to process everything."
S85's WW: "BLANK YOU!" And storms off......

Notice, I didn't "not care", but I also didn't flip out, fly off the handle, yell, scream, cry, beg. I was emotionally cool as a cucumber. I listend and validated. I did not sway from my insistence that she move out of the MBR, and I did not condemn nor excuse her behavior. I didn't agree nor disagree with her. I was emotionally level. That is detachment.

AGAIN, FOR CLARITY, THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL DISCUSSION TO SHOW Nial WHAT IT MEANS TO BE DETACHED! THIS DID NOT ACTUALLY OCCUR!

[Ready2Change]

R2C, it's true that it is not working for me. A couple of times I have thought about just leaving but have decided, for now, to stay for my daughter.

You don't leave. You form boundaries around you and D.



Here is one of my boundaries:
"When you ask for help in saving your marriage and continually ignore my advice, I feel disrespected. If you continue to ask for advise and ignore my suggestions, I will stop posting to you"

See how it is about how I respond to your behavior? This is what you need to do with W.

You can start little or start big. You choice.


Right now, this is your weak boundary.

"When you do things that are disrespectful to me and our relationship, I ignore your behavior and act happy"

Only you can figure out your boundaries. We can help by sharing ours.

[Niall11]

ST: I did read some more on temperature checks vs. the much more substantial changes needed before R is possible.

Steve: Very good illustration. I'm getting better at doing this on the outside and with my words. Not getting emotional on the inside or being affected after the fact is a work in progress.

R2C: Gotcha. I'm working on it.

Appreciate everyone's help and advice very much. People here know what they're talking about for having lived it.

[Niall11]

About 5 years ago we met another couple who lived about 10 minutes away. They invited us over a few times and we became friends. Myself more than my W. 4 years ago they ended up moving right next door. Since then I've become very close friends with both of them but my W, who was pretty antisocial until this early-onset MLC or whatever it is, never did.

Yesterday the guy asked me to come over and watch our local baseball team's first game with him. I used to be a huge baseball fan, watched or listened to most games, went to the ballpark 10-15 times a season, occasional out-of-town trip to see my team on the road. The past few years life has given me more important things to deal with, and W is not so big a fan, so I watch much less. But I always like to watch on Opening Day. It's like a rite of passage for me, the true beginning of spring and the gateway to endless summer nights. So I said yes.

Until about 6 months ago, my W had to handle our D2's bedtime routine every night because, if anyone else tried, D2 would yell for Mommy. We instituted a new routine last fall and W and I would read/play with her, all of us together, for an hour before bedtime. Then I would handle the actual bedtime. D2 has never been a good or willing sleeper so I'd have to march her back to bed multiple times.

Now I do the entire bedtime routine, reading time and sleep time, about 90% of the time. W is on her phone, working out, in the shower, whatever. W does it only if I have a commitment out, and generally has to deal with D asking for me the whole time. Last evening, approximately the following conversation:

Me: I'm going next door now. Thanks for handling bedtime.
W: Sure, you do it all the time.
Me: Right, I do it all the time. So when I don't do it, it's outside the norm. So thanks.
W: I want you to feel free to go do things and have fun. And I want to go out and have fun too without feeling guilty.
Me: You should do whatever you think is best.
W: OK. But you should be free to have fun too.
Me: I appreciate that. For me it's about finding the right balance between doing things outside the house that I enjoy and meeting my responsibilities to D2.

W: I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want.
Me: I'm also sorry for the choices you are making.

She started to say something but didn't. I left.

So here's my question. W at the moment feels like going out 3-4 times a week, mostly these days with possible OW2. I have friends and things I'd like to do, I'm trying to GAL, but if I'm going out a couple of times a week myself it just feels a little like tit-for-tat. It also feels like my D2 is caught in the middle as both parents go about staking their claim to nights out. I suppose that, if there is a D, my D2 will mostly be with only one parent at a time. This still feels kind of wrong. How have people dealt with that?

[SteveLW]

I haven't had to deal with it. However, why can't it be both? D2 has to be going to bed at what? 8pm? Go out after. If she is going out, she could go out after too, though you can't control that.

So do bedtime routine, then go out. On nights your plans legitimately interrupt that, then have W do those nights. You aren't doing anything wrong by going out and GAL. And look at this way, kind of like road construction, "short-term inconvenience leads to long-term relief". If you do this well, and are able to save your MR, that will be a huge bonus to D2.

I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:

"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."

That was dripping with judgment and accusation.

Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."

or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."

[Niall11]

I haven't had to deal with it. However, why can't it be both? D2 has to be going to bed at what? 8pm? Go out after. If she is going out, she could go out after too, though you can't control that.

So do bedtime routine, then go out. On nights your plans legitimately interrupt that, then have W do those nights. You aren't doing anything wrong by going out and GAL. And look at this way, kind of like road construction, "short-term inconvenience leads to long-term relief". If you do this well, and are able to save your MR, that will be a huge bonus to D2.

I've done that a lot, especially when going to my friends next door. For a long time she was totally asleep between 8 and 8:30. Since W returned from her week away last month, D2 has been much harder to get to sleep and it's been more like 9:30 or 10. During the week away D2 barely noticed W was gone, but since W returned she's been very clingy. Changing naptimes, starting the process earlier, nothing has helped much.

I think, when I'm more honest with myself, that I still find it sad that W and I get out of the house only separately. I think we were overdue for some separate friends and nights out. Especially W. Without using, or even knowing, the term, W had some difficulty with self-differentiation in our M. Having a child made that even worse. Even less time to be an individual.

But W hit this point where she has to go from 100% about me and MR to 0%, which I consider even more unhealthy. Too bad she can't be comfortable with something in the middle. I'm giving up on thinking I can control that.

I do need to 2x4 you on your last statement to her. You did pretty well, though I would encourage you to do more listening and validating, until that last statement:

"I'm also sorry for the choices you are making."

That was dripping with judgment and accusation.

Her:"I'm sorry this isn't going the way you want."
You:"Thank you for that. Life doesn't always go the way we want, but there are better days ahead."

or "Thank you for that. I can understand how all of this must make you feel."

Thanks for the much-needed 2x4. Staying quiet and validating is a skill I'm learning and not quite there yet. I'm pretty angry these days and I do feel that, although I played my part in getting us to this point, it's been her choice alone to take it in this direction. I try to remind myself that expressing how I feel about it is not the most important thing. Things still slip out.

[Ready2Change]

"This is not working for me. I have drawn up a parenting schedule."

[ovrrnbw]

Me: I'm going next door now. Thanks for handling bedtime.
W: Sure, you do it all the time.
Me: Right, I do it all the time. So when I don't do it, it's outside the norm. So thanks.
W: I want you to feel free to go do things and have fun. And I want to go out and have fun too without feeling guilty.
Me: You should do whatever you think is best.
W: OK. But you should be free to have fun too.
Me: I appreciate that. For me it's about finding the right balance between doing things outside the house that I enjoy and meeting my responsibilities to D2.

This is just WW garbage. What she said is really: "I want you to find another person so that I can feel good about the other person I'm cheating on you with."

Plenty of people find ways to have fun and still honor their marriage vows. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Niall11]

"This is not working for me. I have drawn up a parenting schedule."

Yeah, I think that's the next step. I've been hesitant to do it because maybe it feels too much like divorce.

A few years ago W and I were both active in the community, then she dropped out of a lot of that stuff. I would have 1 or 2 meetings a week in the evenings. She never wanted to go out anywhere. Just drained from her former job and would watch TV at home.

These days I'm going to fewer meetings and she's going out a lot more. I'd guess the ratio of her nights out to mine is like 4 to 1 now. I think that needs to change.

[Niall11]

This is just WW garbage. What she said is really: "I want you to find another person so that I can feel good about the other person I'm cheating on you with."

Plenty of people find ways to have fun and still honor their marriage vows. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

That's how I've taken it. She's said this a few times recently. I think she does feel guilty going out, both about me and about our D2, and thinks she'll feel less guilty if I'm doing it too.

Also: "I want to be happy. I want you to be happy too."