Dealing with a complex MLC and/or Wayward Wife #2

[P_Jam]

Previous Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841870&page=11

[sandi2]

As we get closer to her moving out and finalizing all documents I'm 98% sure she is going to start a conversation that revolves around this subject: "Are we still working on this relationship or not?" Because the separation has always been about time/space to get over the 'bugging" and to figure out if we can/should work on this with all the infidelity or not. Although I know now she really has some stuff to work through personally before anything can happen together - but for the sake of the kids and the basic facade that this relationship has a chance.. I believe this conversation will happen and relatively soon. I've asked a version of this question before and took the advice of the board. However, I believe the situation will be slightly different this time (maybe you well see it as nuanced, IDK) but...

Speaking of versions, you and your W certainly have two separate views of who initiated the separation and the reason for the separation. She was already looking for another place to stay when you told her that you agreed to a separation. But that's not as important as the other issue. She believes she's leaving you b/c you were bugging her conversations. In the quote above you say this has always been about having time/space to get over the bugging issue.

True to WW form, she flipped the spot light off her and on to you. Instead of this separation being about her affairs, it's b/c of you "bugging" her conversations.

Here is what feels right - right now:

W: Are we still working on this relationship or not?

Me: I will not be in an open marriage/relationship with you. Nor will I 'wait' around and try to compete with:
James -EA
Parker EA/PA
Or random guys that you want to sc&ew in your car.

(names have been changed to protect the guilty)

I have issues that I need to work on that did affect how we got to this point, but these affairs are your choice and your issue to resolve. The rush is like a drug addiction (whether you recognize it or not). If you think you can find happiness with one or all of them - then I want you to be with them. I've been here for 16yrs through thick and thin (but still not to discount what I still have to work on). You know who I am. If you don't want to be with me, I don't want to be with you. I am not a relationship option as long as these guys are still in the picture. Therefore, our ability to 'work on this relationship' is completely up to you - same as I've always said. I know these guys are still in the picture therefore I am not! I am moving on (with hope you will comeback someday) - but I cannot promise I will still be available for you then.

My focus in myself and the kids. Not you anymore. I don't care who/what you do and am glad that I don't have to have you around to lie to me on a daily basis. I'm done - until you are done with this lifestyle - period. I love you, I love our history and I believe we could get through this -but only after you have addressed you and your choices.

You are dreaming!

But if/when she addresses our relationship I like this response. It does 2 things. Allows me to address my knowledge of girls gone wild. Which I believe to be important to her recognizing her situation is getting worse not better.

First of all, you are busting a gut to reveal how much you know. And secondly, don't believe your own b.s.

I provides a full insight as to why I went from begging to detachment and moving on. It also sets the stage clearly for any future conversation about our relationship. She can no longer 'act' like she had one small indiscretion (similar to me). She is no longer able to have the 'high ground' when she compares our mutual mistakes.

And you think your little speech is going to do all of that? No, it won't. and that's why we say no relationship talk.

Look, you don't seem to realize that she could pull the same thing on you. You told her you had had multiple sexual encounters, so in her mind......you are just as guilty as she. You kept that dirty little secret from her, until you found yourself on the other end and you didn't like it. Your "confession" was not impressive, b/c you were grasping at whatever you could find to keep her from leaving. So, you thought empathizing would do the trick, and you just threw in the little fact that you have had several affairs of your own.

[P_Jam]

PJ,

It's ok to do the things you need to get done around the house as long as you are not looking for a reaction from her when you do it.

You are new to the game and are learning the rules. This $hit isn't easy and it takes time. Keep posting and keep asking questions.

LH,
I was not trying/expecting to get any outward reaction. My intent was to show that 1. 180 <-- ready to do what I've been talking about. 2. Show that life goes on with or without her and that is what I'm going to focus on As well as needing stuff to keep me busy.

I know I need to NOT do things for her reaction - period. But we all know that until full detachment almost EVERY move has SOMETHING to do with her. At least until she is out of the house and not able to see it all first hand. So although I get the point it's completely unavoidable. Even doing 'nothing' is a choice and has the possibility of being interpreted as something by her.

This too is why I seem to be so torn between the "mystery" and "tough love". I try, but can't see how any of my comments about her actions would actually 'hurt' the sitch. That's one reason I'm so drawn to it. I don't see the downside. She cheated (multiple times) and yes I'm hurt and mad while also being willing to move one all at the same time. Due to the experience of the board I will probably still stick to what you and AS have stated. "we both have individual stuff to work on before we can have that conversation". However, you have to remember that I might have went farther than most in bugging the house. I have been able to hear all different sides of her story as well as the emotions she is going through that were not conversation meant for me to hear. So i'm aware of where some of her regrets/thoughts are. I know for my own sanity this is not good - which is the main reason I stopped. But it doesn't change the fact that I know there is some fear/regret/surprise going through her head about what she has done. That I want to capitalize on. I'm not delusional to think that my statements will cause u-turn in the sitch. Only that it might help affect her in getting help (IC) to discover from a 3rd party that this is fantasy land. I'm only trying to minimize her going down the rabbit hole farther and acknowledging that her actions are WAY OUT there. As she obviously believes she has a reason for the first PA (me and the R) but was surprised about her latest drunken action - doesn't seem to hurt the overall sitch. - correct again if I"m wrong. I'm a big 'debater' but I do take a lot of the advise. I'm just not good at taking it blindly. I need to understand how it helps/hurts.

[LH19]

But we all know that until full detachment almost EVERY move has SOMETHING to do with her. At least until she is out of the house and not able to see it all first hand.

Just lay low for the remaining days you have left together.

This too is why I seem to be so torn between the "mystery" and "tough love". I try, but can't see how any of my comments about her actions would actually 'hurt' the sitch. That's one reason I'm so drawn to it. I don't see the downside. She cheated (multiple times) and yes I'm hurt and mad while also being willing to move one all at the same time.

How do you think it will help?

Due to the experience of the board I will probably still stick to what you and AS have stated. "we both have individual stuff to work on before we can have that conversation".

This would be very smart on your part.

However, you have to remember that I might have went farther than most in bugging the house.

Didn't help your matter but certainly didn't seal your fate.

But it doesn't change the fact that I know there is some fear/regret/surprise going through her head about what she has done. That I want to capitalize on.

If you want to capitalize on it set her free to see if she can stand on her own.

Only that it might help affect her in getting help (IC) to discover from a 3rd party that this is fantasy land.

You would be shocked if you knew how man counselors will tell her that if she's not happy she should leave you.

I'm only trying to minimize her going down the rabbit hole farther and acknowledging that her actions are WAY OUT there. As she obviously believes she has a reason for the first PA (me and the R) but was surprised about her latest drunken action - doesn't seem to hurt the overall sitch. - correct again if I"m wrong. I'm a big 'debater' but I do take a lot of the advise. I'm just not good at taking it blindly. I need to understand how it helps/hurts.

OPEN THE CAGE DOOR PJ OPEN THE CAGE DOOR.

[P_Jam]

OK - your persistence is paying off.

You ask: "how do you think it will help"
1. I know she has enough left to feel bad about 'openly' hurting me. Letting her know that I know, might trigger a little more guilt
2. She is in a bit of shock about her actions - not letting her keep this EXTREME a 'secret' I think helps with the necessary loss/shame
3. as Sandi noted.. for whatever reason (probably the above) I'm bursting to let he know what I know. And if it doesn't hurt the sitch.. it's then off my chest at least and not something I'm always trying to find an avenue to discuss.

Very early on in this sitch I talked to her about sexual compulsion (because of my previous issues) I also talked about Limmerence (because of my previous issues). She flat out denied that any of this is a 'compulsion' and I think she believed it at the time. Since then she went GGW - and my thinking is.. she might start to understand the need for help. As she is not able to 'control' it. And I know she has thoughts/issues about it. Her conversations are.. "I really need to stay in 'control' tonight (when talking to friends).

Now.. when I say your persistence i paying off - it's mainly because of your point about IC probably telling her to leave me. She has asked questions about possibly seeing the same IC I see - which I think would be fine, but she is reluctant for fear of me hearing about her issues... So this MIGHT just be the reason to not give my 'speech'. If she goes to any IC (not mine) it might hurt. <-- this is making some logical sense and giving me a 'reason' not to have the conversation. But because of the above it is still not an easy decision.

[LH19]

1. I know she has enough left to feel bad about 'openly' hurting me. Letting her know that I know, might trigger a little more guilt

You don't want her back because of guilt. Plus it will most likely piss her off more that you were snooping.

2. She is in a bit of shock about her actions - not letting her keep this EXTREME a 'secret' I think helps with the necessary loss/shame

Good! The quicker she hits rock bottom the quicker she comes out of the fog.

3. as Sandi noted.. for whatever reason (probably the above) I'm bursting to let he know what I know. And if it doesn't hurt the sitch.. it's then off my chest at least and not something I'm always trying to find an avenue to discuss.

Number 3 makes zero sense to me.

Very early on in this sitch I talked to her about sexual compulsion (because of my previous issues) I also talked about Limmerence (because of my previous issues).

Again, you are trying to use logic and reason with an emotional human being.

Right now what you are going through is what is known as the "illusion of action". You feel like you need to do something or say something to stop the pain. Again, the only thing you need to do is to Open the Cage Door.

The reality is she is done right now and is convinced her moving out and getting rid of you is her ticket to happiness. As human's when we ignore reality we suffer and that is what is happening to you right now.

Can her feelings change? Absolutely! It's going to take awhile. There are no short cuts. This is a marathon and not a sprint and you are at .25 miles right now. Every time you pursue or have a relationship talk or try to tell her what she is feeling you go back to the starting gate.

That's reality. You can ignore reality but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

[P_Jam]

Farts! Double Farts!

I want to take ACTION! I want to do this ONE MORE THING! and I don't understand why her feeling 'guilty' is bad. It's not like guilt alone would change this. But yes, I want her to feel bad/guilty/remorse. <-- isn't that part of the point? Those are some of the feelings that are opposite of justification.. that is the beaning of the change (maybe)

But you are making some more sense.. just STOP! open the cage door. Be done now. <-- ?? really not after this one more thing?? FARTS!

[P_Jam]

and FYI she won't know I was snooping. She knows I was informed about the situation. So I wouldn't share the detail that would expose the snooping.

[IHCLACS]

P Jam I've been studying women relationships and attraction for 25 years and I still suck at it, but also understand it somewhat well. The path towards separation and divorce is new to me however. Haven't been down that road yet so all my previous relationships have been clean breaks, which allowed quicker time to heal, without all the financial and legal mess. I've assessed all my previous relationships and realized that when I started them I was attractive, I was confident, I was secure and financially independent. I was flirtatious and sexual and interesting, and I really didn't care what the outcome was whether it was one date or 20. I've come to realize that once every one of my gf's and STBXW finally discovered all my insecurities and vulnerabilities they are no longer attracted to me. Some are willing to put up with it for the long haul as long as you correct it ASAP. When they nag on you about these things and you get defensive, stone wall, or just ignore it or dismiss it, they think that they have done everything to tell you these things, and when they BD you, you wind up in shock thinking it wasn't that bad, and they say "too little too late."

Even though I don't understand women as much as I like to think I do, and am having trouble myself implementing everything I'm learning here and elsewhere. Let me ask you this question? In a normal self-respecting, individual differentiating healthy marriage, or relationship.

In a hypothetical scenario. Not necessarily your own situation. If youre W thought very highly of herself and had a lot of self respect for herself. If you cheated on her, what do you think her actions would be? Do you think she would try to convince you of what limerace is? Do you think she would beg you to stay? Do you think she would ask you why she isn't good enough? If she had any self worth and self respect and value, she wouldn't be doing any of these things.

Although I'm being presumptuous. I think if she had that much self respect, in this hypothetical scenario, she would find the nearest lawyer, not speak with you. then file for divorce. If she was more of a compassionate person at the very least she probably wouldn't speak to you and separate, and ask you to leave. She would let you go and "open the cage door" because "she is the prize in her mind" on this hypothetical situation. This is how most attractive women think, and attractive men as well. Feelings change, they can change back with attractiveness.

Here's something I came across that might help you gain a little insight from my own research into the subject for myself.

As Steve 85 here mentions look up self differentiation in relationships. Also try looking up the different personality types in relationships, as well as cluster personality disorders in relationships. Try to gain some insight on people that are attractive and successful in relationships and why. It kind of comes down to the whole Alpha Beta male thing again but whatever. What I'm trying to say is you have to be the prize you have to be the man only a fool would leave.

She has to realize her guilt by actions and consequences. Not by you telling her. You telling her to make her feel guilt/re Morse is like you trying to tell her "she is in a limerance phase" She's not going to see it or want to hear it from you.

[P_Jam]

IHCLACS,

All very fair and probably true. I will always wonder if I would be in the same spot if I did not admit to my infidelity at the time that I did. Sandi is right, I was trying to be empathetic (as a strategy). That being said; I really did carry a lot of guilt and remorse for my actions for a very long time. Debated numerous times if/when to come clean. I had resided the fact that is my burden to carry and not to put it on her, but NEVER do it again. Strategy or not, I thought my wife would be remorseful and want to reconcile (dumb) so I also believed I was going to relieve some of her guilt and we were going to rebuild this relationship. I had no idea about the complete mindset change of the WW at the time.

I also think that some of my resistance to this DB strategy (just some details) is related to the fact that I felt relatively confident in myself. I had/have a life. I definitely neglected my wife for a couple of years, etc. And not to defend my actions of neglect - but I can look back at MANY times I really tried to get my wife involved more in my life (socially) without the kids. She always had a reason not too. So maybe the WW goes back farther than I think. I know last year was tough because of a work/job issue I dealt with for 8 months (and didn't deal very well) - but aside from that as it relates to me and her.. I was aware that we were growing apart, I missed her, I tried to get her back (not hard enough) but I tried. I know I'm a catch, and I am the prize. But I also know because of what I learned about myself and my infidelity it was not about her. It was about me, and my inability to be upfront and forward about my needs. It was also me making very poor decisions that I cannot blame ANYONE else for. This is one reason why my sitch has the title that it does. Somewhere in here I still believe I"m dealing with a bit of MLC. My W never wanted anything except to be a mother. That turned out to be more work and less fulfilling then she expected. I really don't think she really knows what she wants out of LIFE in general. Could be wrong, maybe I"m still justifying her WW actions. But I do believe it's mixed in there somewhere. Furthermore, because of my actions in the past and what I learned, I'm also very much able to believe that my W too is still a catch and a prize. I have the unique ability to have walked in her shoes. So I know I can/could get over this as long as she really wanted to fully understand the need for extreme transparency for a while. Having this experience/knowledge is a blessing and a curse as I can clearly see and picture the future even with infidelity. I know that people and situations can change once you understand and deal with the root cause (which is more individual than it is relationship based).

But I do get it! Side note: I needed my W help today to be shuddled around while my car is in the shop. I/we were able to spend this time together (for the first time in a long time) without any weird animosity by me (which is usually me trying to be distant masked as DB). So I was able to feel the 'friendly' way to interact without pursuing. It gave me a chance to use my humor be funny, be me, without thinking about a 'strategy'. So all of these conversations today DO HELP. Even the smallest things I notice. I'm making progress. It helped me see that even when she moves out and I go NC - this must be done gently (or with love). It can't be 'running away'. It's about being present, being personable, being attractive without pursuing. Something I haven't really been able to feel or do until about 30 minutes ago. So although I have made some good/positive steps as it relates to the overall goal. I need to detach but detach with love. Which also means I need to stop trying to hurt her, by throwing her actions back in her face. I do keep trying to remind myself that she too is scared and worried and hopefully with the right amount of space/time - she will figure it all out.

I also believe that all of this gets a little easier in 2 weeks. Once she is out of the house I will be more forced to focus on me - not her. I will have to deal with other issues (loneliness, making sure I don't jump into another physical relationship for revenge, etc). but a lot of this strategy talk will minimize as the opportunity to act on any of it will be much more sparce. So I just need to keep my emotions under control for 2 more weeks. Then deal with the new life I have.