Dealing with a complex MLC and/or Wayward Wife

[AnotherStander]

If everything is so predictable what (if any) similarities in Sitch's exist for those that have reconciled?

They follow a fairly predictable pattern:

The LBH cries and begs and pleads for the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH tries every trick, technique and 12 step program they can come up with to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH pretends to move on, makes a big show of how they are moving on, posts stuff on FB, says things to friends and family, all geared towards tricking the WAW into think they've moved on to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH realizes it really is over, she really is done, there's no saving things. He moved on, gets a life, finds contentment and eventually happiness again, let's go of his WAW with no ill feelings.

Time passes.

The WAW misses the LBH, remembers he's a pretty cool guy that she had a lot of fun with, reaches out to him in small ways.

Then usually reverse BD, she's sorry for everything, wishes there was a way to get back together. Is there?

PJ, the obvious trick here is you really well and truly have to move on. It's the only way. The longer you postpone moving on the longer it will take for her to come out of the fog. You've got to let her go and get busy working on you.

[LH19]

PJ,

I can usually get a pretty good feel early on how things will play out for a poster early on. Some have their b@lls so far down their Ws purse that I know their chances are slim and they don't want to do the work so they will continue to struggle in life. Some jump right into another relationship and most likely will be back here in 5 years. You I believe will be fine once you get her out of the house and you are able to stabilize the feelings you are having right now.

I was happy to see your follow up post to TBS acknowledging that your are BSing yourself that your sitch is different. It is NOT. In fact has a lot of similarities to mine.

I mentioned Accuray to you and the following is a post from him that IMO every LBS just follow immediately:

Your wife believes you are the reason she is unhappy. As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to co-mingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that it’s what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

[IHCLACS]

^^^^^^^ That's perfect. That is exatcly the answer we are all looking for.

If everything is so predictable what (if any) similarities in Sitch's exist for those that have reconciled?

They follow a fairly predictable pattern:

The LBH cries and begs and pleads for the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH tries every trick, technique and 12 step program they can come up with to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH pretends to move on, makes a big show of how they are moving on, posts stuff on FB, says things to friends and family, all geared towards tricking the WAW into think they've moved on to get the WAW to recon. They don't.

The LBH realizes it really is over, she really is done, there's no saving things. He moved on, gets a life, finds contentment and eventually happiness again, let's go of his WAW with no ill feelings.

Time passes.

The WAW misses the LBH, remembers he's a pretty cool guy that she had a lot of fun with, reaches out to him in small ways.

Then usually reverse BD, she's sorry for everything, wishes there was a way to get back together. Is there?

PJ, the obvious trick here is you really well and truly have to move on. It's the only way. The longer you postpone moving on the longer it will take for her to come out of the fog. You've got to let her go and get busy working on you.

^^^^ That is the perfect template, that is exactly the answer most of us are looking for.

[Bo562]

You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

Listen to LH—he is a huge help towards me, and is not afraid to beat people with the reality stick when they truly need it (and I’ve needed it time to time).

I want to focus on this last point, because this is where I’ve been the last few months, and it’s made my W absolutely nuts. She wants to know what I’m thinking / how I’m feeling about things—and I’ve told her very little, if anything for the last few months, and she can’t stand it.

[P_Jam]

[quote=


PJ, the obvious trick here is you really well and truly have to move on. It's the only way. The longer you postpone moving on the longer it will take for her to come out of the fog. You've got to let her go and get busy working on you.[/quote]


This I know logically and I"m doing everything I can to get there emotionally. Generally I feel like I've done a pretty good job overall. If we look at the timeline (although BD date is a little complicated due to me catching confronting PA, as well as admitting to my previous infidelity) - Real BD for both was probably around mid to late Jan. I did 180 between late December and late January without her knowing I knew about PA. The begging and pleading proceeded for a couple of weeks after I confronted her. In hindsight this might have been better if I knew about DB, but I've also heard that it's not so bad to show some fight/support for the marriage at first anyway. Second PA (one night stand) was second week in Feb. I have not confronted her specifically about this PA (although she thinks I MIGHT know from people telling me). but one week after this PA I agreed that she needed move out and gave her 30 days. Essentially this is when I broke up with her - although I regret not letting her know exactly what I knew at the time. She will be out of my house the second week in April (and the week before that I'm gone on a golf trip). So I've got 2-4 more days of us sleeping in the same house (spread out over 2 weeks). Within all of this time frame I have jumped to have the house painted (the colors she always wanted - although they were well agreed to over a year ago so not like I was throwing it in her face too much). Replaced and built all bedroom furniture for the guest room (this is the stuff she is taking). Replaced aging chandelier that has been on the to-do list for a while since we shopped for the light together - it was just too high for me to replace. Doing everything I can to do kids lunches, arrange for new nanny/babysitters that support ME and my needs after she is gone (this was normally handled by her parents/niece). Have not had any relationship talks at all in the last 3 weeks. Pulled away enough that she has confronted me twice about being more 'friendly' in the house. One exception to relationship talk was when we met to discuss how we were going to tell the kids. During this conversation I did give her one more chance to reconsider (futile as leases were already signed) - but I just asked.. "Are you sure this is what you want" - she said "No, but we are here now and we need to move forward". - I agreed and that was it. I have maintained my GAL - still playing golf when appropriate (without too much burden on her with the kids). Celebrated my birthday without her (specifically let her know she was not invited). Taken "my" time on the weekends to have a couple of late nights out with friends.

I have since leveled off and been more 'friendly' in the house as I don't want to show anger. But I don't say goodbye when I leave. I only tell her where I'm going and timeline if its pertinent to having to pick up the kids or their care. Done more than my fair share of laundry and took care of everything while she and S9 were down with the flu for 2 weeks. In summary I think I've done a very good job showing her that I can EASILY survive without her. From my perspective, the ONLY thing missing is true emotional detachment - which I don't believe is realistic for ANYONE this early. I believe the fake-it-till-you-make-it has gone very well. Of course it doesn't have the full affect of being fully detached - but I think this is definitely more if an underlying current for her. I have no way to confirm, but this has to have some affect. Even if it doesn't take root until later. She is not leaving this house thinking that I will be a mess/wreck. I can guarantee that! Not to mention that one of my best friends just bought the house across the street from me. That house has a pool. His wife is a well qualified special needs teacher who is also going to be helping with nanny duties. My summer is set for GAL already and she knows it!

One other thing that is kinda pertinent... We technically are NOT married. Been 'engaged' for 13 years together 16. Because of our ages at the time of engagement and the strong want to start a family we both just put off the actual ceremony and cost to focus on having our 2 children. After that it was all about them and the paperwork was never that important. This is important because; I'm the only one with an attorney right now. I'm working with them to legalize the 50/50 parenting plan, as well as draft a document that she will need to sign agreeing to give up any rights to any other mutual assets once she accepts my lump sum transition payment, as well as agree and document the child support amount. The house and my car are only in my name. Her car is only in her name. She knows all of this. The lump sum amount is agreed to but document or check has not yet been signed. Child support (because of what she makes) is very realistic and might be slightly in favor of me. But she would have to spend A LOT of attorney money to get A LITTLE more and the net affect for what she could get would be a net loss. My point in telling you all this now is: once these 2 documents are signed and she is out. We are essentially divorced. In the future she can always go back and request more child support as things change - but generally speaking we are legally done. This could be good or bad for me - but considering a WW I see it as good. I can always wait/reconcile regardless if it turns that direction. But I'm also making it clear that this issue is 'completed' and if she so chooses to come back - we will address those issues then. I have also continued to tell her (every time she confronted me) - this is her relationship to save - not mine! Our first 'marriage' is over. If/when you want a new one with me - let me know.

Let me know if/where I screwed up - but part of me feels like this is DB at it's finest (once the strategy was recognized). Now to make it official by fixing my issues and fully moving on!

I still have a couple of questions for all of you that I will post soon, as I know there will be more conversations she starts once we begin to actually sign all the documents. I've addressed it a little, but with some nuance changes I want some more feedback. More to come (hopefully I can write it even today).

[TBSakaJ9]

I dont think you screwed up per se I just think you need to have a realistic expectation of how long all of this will take for her to potentially view you in a different light. More than likely it will take years. You are still in the documenting trying to rationalize and comprehend phase, thinking that one singular thing you do or have done is going to make or break your sitch. Truthfully it is a culmination of many different things and years of her walls coming down to make a difference.

[P_Jam]

You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

Listen to LH—he is a huge help towards me, and is not afraid to beat people with the reality stick when they truly need it (and I’ve needed it time to time).

I want to focus on this last point, because this is where I’ve been the last few months, and it’s made my W absolutely nuts. She wants to know what I’m thinking / how I’m feeling about things—and I’ve told her very little, if anything for the last few months, and she can’t stand it.

Bo562,

This is a great lead in to my questions. As we get closer to her moving out and finalizing all documents I'm 98% sure she is going to start a conversation that revolves around this subject: "Are we still working on this relationship or not?" Because the separation has always been about time/space to get over the 'bugging" and to figure out if we can/should work on this with all the infidelity or not. Although I know now she really has some stuff to work through personally before anything can happen together - but for the sake of the kids and the basic facade that this relationship has a chance.. I believe this conversation will happen and relatively soon. I've asked a version of this question before and took the advice of the board. However, I believe the situation will be slightly different this time (maybe you well see it as nuanced, IDK) but...

I have not specifically addressed her last PA which was a one night stand "girls gone wild". <-- I know A LOT of detail about this event (too much). I also have played 'dumb' to the fact that she is still chatting with original PA that I caught. They have not seen each other again but they are chatting. <-- probably doesn't matter either way. But as I picture and prepare for the future conversation there is 2 specific ways I could go - Maybe 2.5.

1. Stick to the most basic script as I have already have - which focuses much less on talk and actions only.
2. Essentially, make it clear in words as well as actions how much I know. <-- This feels right for a couple of reasons and I'll elaborate below - most importantly she is still playing the "I was pushed to this affair by you" card and furthermore has yet to acknowledge the depth of 'girls gone wile' - which to me is big. She tries to play that the one PA (which I was willing to forgive) is the only real issue and the rest is about my snooping/bugging and previous infidelity.
2.5. Somewhere in between

Here is what feels right - right now:

W: Are we still working on this relationship or not?

Me: I will not be in an open marriage/relationship with you. Nor will I 'wait' around and try to compete with:
James -EA
Parker EA/PA
Or random guys that you want to sc&ew in your car.

(names have been changed to protect the guilty)

I have issues that I need to work on that did affect how we got to this point, but these affairs are your choice and your issue to resolve. The rush is like a drug addiction (whether you recognize it or not). If you think you can find happiness with one or all of them - then I want you to be with them. I've been here for 16yrs through thick and thin (but still not to discount what I still have to work on). You know who I am. If you don't want to be with me, I don't want to be with you. I am not a relationship option as long as these guys are still in the picture. Therefore, our ability to 'work on this relationship' is completely up to you - same as I've always said. I know these guys are still in the picture therefore I am not! I am moving on (with hope you will comeback someday) - but I cannot promise I will still be available for you then.

My focus in myself and the kids. Not you anymore. I don't care who/what you do and am glad that I don't have to have you around to lie to me on a daily basis. I'm done - until you are done with this lifestyle - period. I love you, I love our history and I believe we could get through this -but only after you have addressed you and your choices.



I have brought this up to the board before and agreed that I don't need to have this conversation un-provoked. But if/when she addresses our relationship I like this response. It does 2 things. Allows me to address my knowledge of girls gone wild. Which I believe to be important to her recognizing her situation is getting worse not better. I provides a full insight as to why I went from begging to detachment and moving on. It also sets the stage clearly for any future conversation about our relationship. She can no longer 'act' like she had one small indiscretion (similar to me). She is no longer able to have the 'high ground' when she compares our mutual mistakes.


Thoughts?

[LH19]

My comments below are from your girl friends point of view:

The begging and pleading proceeded for a couple of weeks after I confronted her. In hindsight this might have been better if I knew about DB, but I've also heard that it's not so bad to show some fight/support for the marriage at first anyway.

He is begging and pleading for another chance when I cheated on him. His value has dropped in my eyes.

Within all of this time frame I have jumped to have the house painted (the colors she always wanted - although they were well agreed to over a year ago so not like I was throwing it in her face too much). Replaced and built all bedroom furniture for the guest room (this is the stuff she is taking). Replaced aging chandelier that has been on the to-do list for a while since we shopped for the light together - it was just too high for me to replace.

Oh now he's going to do all the things I wanted done for years. Too little too late.

Doing everything I can to do kids lunches, arrange for new nanny/babysitters that support ME and my needs after she is gone (this was normally handled by her parents/niece).

Oh now he's going to make the kids lunches and arrange babysitters. Too little too late.

Have not had any relationship talks at all in the last 3 weeks. Pulled away enough that she has confronted me twice about being more 'friendly' in the house. One exception to relationship talk was when we met to discuss how we were going to tell the kids. During this conversation I did give her one more chance to reconsider (futile as leases were already signed) - but I just asked.. "Are you sure this is what you want" - she said "No, but we are here now and we need to move forward". - I agreed and that was it.

Of course now he's going to walk around the house acting like a dick because i won't give him another chance. Well he just gave me another chance to reconsider so he's still on the hook. I'll throw him a bone and say "no I am not sure" to keep his hopes up.

But I don't say goodbye when I leave.

LOL. He thinks he's punishing me by not saying good bye.


The rest are just my comments:

From my perspective, the ONLY thing missing is true emotional detachment - which I don't believe is realistic for ANYONE this early.

You are correct. Most likely 6 months to a year for true detachment.

His wife is a well qualified special needs teacher who is also going to be helping with nanny duties. My summer is set for GAL already and she knows it!

Why do you need a nanny? You should be spending as much time with your kids as possible when you have them.

After that it was all about them and the paperwork was never that important.

My guess is it was very important to her.

This is important because; I'm the only one with an attorney right now.

That's good that you got an attorney.

But I'm also making it clear that this issue is 'completed' and if she so chooses to come back - we will address those issues then. I have also continued to tell her (every time she confronted me) - this is her relationship to save - not mine! Our first 'marriage' is over. If/when you want a new one with me - let me know.

DO NOT MENTION THIS AGAIN. Stop making her believe she can come back whenever she wants and work on the relationship.

I will say it again. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

[P_Jam]

I dont think you screwed up per se I just think you need to have a realistic expectation of how long all of this will take for her to potentially view you in a different light. More than likely it will take years. You are still in the documenting trying to rationalize and comprehend phase, thinking that one singular thing you do or have done is going to make or break your sitch. Truthfully it is a culmination of many different things and years of her walls coming down to make a difference.

I do not deny this at all. But I also do not believe I will be on this board updating my sitch for years. Maybe i'll stick around to help others. but if this really takes years, I don't count myself 'in' between now and then. So for me, it's about maximizing the opportunities (whether they really exist or not). As well as saying these things out loud and to her face so that I can also better internalize them. To truly detach - I need to not care about her - which means I need to move on. That will be my focus. So call it what you want... as long as there isn't some hard facts that says this will actually make it worse - my perspective is to be forward and upfront on my way 'out the door'.

[LH19]

Thoughts?

(Me slapping my forehead)
If she asks:
After everything that has happened, I need time and space to think about what I want in the future.