I've been lurking for a while and have read the DR book, the materials linked in Cadet's welcome post, and a pretty large number of threads. So many people with wisdom born of pain. My situation is in some ways not as bad as some others I've seen, and in some ways more challenging. Sorry for the length. There's a lot I could say.
I'm 43, my wife 32, and our daughter 2. My wife and I are together nearly 10 years, married nearly 8. Our relationship was bliss in the early years. We rarely argued and, when we did, patched it up quickly. But since then we've had a lot of job stress, money stress, a lot of extended family stress. The year before our daughter was born we suffered a miscarriage. Since our daughter was born a lot has happened, not much of it good. Every couple of months, we'd have a pretty bad argument but would (or so I thought) more or less resolve it. Only in the past 7 months or so have things hit crisis level.
For the past several years I've been self-employed and things have been up and down. We live in one of the most expensive areas in the country so, even with a combined income in the six figures, we've been barely making it since having our child. Last summer a big project I was expecting to give us a boost disappeared at the last minute, meaning money would be tight for a while.
This coincided exactly with W starting a long-desired new job. She's a high school teacher and was teaching in a very difficult high school in the city for 6 years. Long hours, awful commute, totally draining. She came home and just wanted to veg on the couch. I like to get out and about so it was tough for me. Now she finally had a new job and I was very excited for her. Little did I know...
More details in next post...
M 44, W 32 T 10, M 8 D 2 Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W) Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF Still live together but a lot of tension
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
September '18, first month on W's new job: W got home much earlier than in old job, but was hostile and barely looking at me. Avoided being in the same room. Something obviously was wrong. I tried to discuss it and she refused. Also refused counseling. Said she didn't feel like herself and hadn't for a while. Avoided any physical contact, saying she couldn't be affectionate or intimate if she didn't feel good about the relationship.
I asked what she needed to feel better in the relationship. She said she didn't think I was pulling my weight around the house or with our child. I had been under a lot of stress and thought she had a point. I started to 180 that right away and today I'm much better in those departments. Unfortunately my efforts may have just opened the cake shop. Me taking over our D's bedtime left W freer to go out.
She was on her phone nonstop. Last summer W had reconnected with an old work friend and suddenly, after being too tired to do anything social, wanted to go out in the city with that friend all the time. Friend has a long-term BF but he lives 2 hours away and they're on the rocks. BFF also is really into exercise. W was never heavy and lost pregnancy weight fast, but since then had put on about 25 pounds. She's always been curvy so it wasn't noticeable. But she changed her diet and exercised every day, at home or out with BFF, and lost the 25 pounds.
October '18: More of the same. Things were just starting to thaw when, one day, she started crying. She told me that lately she's been feeling sexually attracted to other women. This was new and I think it's a pretty complicated story how she got here.
I asked what it meant for us and she said she didn't know. I asked if she had feelings for anyone else and she said absolutely not, and that if we broke up in the end she wouldn't want a new relationship for a long time. Those statements were...not true.
Halloween my D brought me wife's phone, wanting to watch videos. On the screen were texts from BFF clearly indicating that W had a big crush on an unidentified woman, apparently a new colleague. W wanted advice on how to make that happen, BFF was more than happy to oblige. I was crushed.
November '18: Without revealing that I knew about fantasy/potential OW, I asked where we stood. She didn't want to discuss it (my wife can't handle emotional discussions and hates conflict). I did keep pushing and she finally said we should split. I was going to leave that night, at least for a few days. Unfortunately we're really short on money so I can't just get a nearby apartment. If I move out, I'm going to family several hours away.
She pulled back from the brink, told me to come back, said yes to counseling, which we started. I foolishly thought that she'd realized how serious this was and that was the end of OW. Wrong. One Friday she went out for a "quick drink" with coworkers that lasted 7 hours. I had lost all trust and, for the first time ever, snooped in her phone. It was devastating. She and BFF said horrible things about me and it was full speed ahead on trying to make OW happen. It appears nothing physical ever happened and it doesn't even appear to have gotten to the point of texting or reciprocal interest. Just my wife crushing hard on a coworker. (Close coworker. Bad idea.)
A couple of days later I confronted her. She cried a lot and was very chastened for a couple of days. Said she never would have done anything physical. Feeling insecure and having been deprived of affection and sex for months, I fell into pursuing. She said fixing the marriage was her top priority but it couldn't happen overnight or on my timeline. I read about pursuit/distance and realized that, for the first time ever, I was pursuing hard. Also came across DB. I decided to back off.
December '18: I backed off and things improved. She was more engaged with me, we started doing little things together. I brought in some decent income so we had breathing room. At Christmas we went for an overnight to see my family, which she previously said she didn't want to do (traffic, hard to travel with toddler, etc.). We had a great Christmas and I was thinking I was a fool to think we'd be divorcing. After our child went to sleep that night, I tried to kiss her. Big mistake. Despite my backing off, she said she still felt pressured and judged all the time. I didn't handle it well at all and it turned into a big fight.
New Year's Eve: She had invited her parents to our house. They (and she) are from far away and moved here only after our D was born. A big part of the story for another time. Then she told me we were going to their place. OK. Then, as we were heading out the door she got a text from BFF and she was thinking of going out with her in the city. You're kidding, right? She didn't change plans but sulked and ignored me for days.
January '19: She suddenly wanted to go out a lot more and would come home at 2 AM. With nobody to watch our D (W's mom takes her days but works evenings), I'd stay home. Never asked where she went or with whom, which didn't stop her from accusing me of smothering her with my nonexistent questions.
She spent her Christmas money on new clothes, my preppy W now looking like a punk rocker or a teenager. Leather pants, leopard-print tights, thigh-high boots, everything skin tight, lots of makeup.
The counseling was not working (we'd met the counselor together only the first visit, then my wife insisted on going separately). Counselor's opinion on our sitch changed with the breeze. I said I didn't want to go anymore.
W told me that I'd had a lot of life experiences before we got together and she felt she'd missed out. This had been a concern for me when we started out, one I discussed with her. At the time she said she wasn't the party type and only wanted me. Now, a decade later, she wants to party. I asked what particular experiences she felt she needed to have. She said she wanted to have sex with other women. Not what I wanted to hear.
I said we could break up and she could do whatever she wanted, or we could talk about her having permission to do that with some serious rules in place. This isn't what I want but I have a (female) friend who is bisexual and married to a man. They eventually settled on her being allowed to hook up with women if he gives the OK, no relationships, no coworkers, nobody they know, etc, etc., These things rarely work but it seems to for them. They're also very independent type people. My wife was very codependent and now wants to be totally independent. W said to forget the whole thing.
Late Jan, I thought she was inviting me to initiate sexual contact. Very, very wrong. She gave me the same story. Feels pressured, judged, not feeling good about the relationship, has to work out her own stuff first. Again, I'm sorry to say I reacted poorly. I have a pretty high libido, she's looking great these days, and this is really getting to me. I said it feels like we're not even married, like we're roommates who share the same bed only because we don't have an extra bedroom. She took off her wedding ring, said she didn't want to work on the relationship anymore because she was tired of me saying she wasn't trying. It hasn't gone back on since.
February '19: Little interaction, a lot of tension, W going out a lot. Valentine's Day a non-event. W went out of country for a week on a school trip. Her birthday fell that week. I was frankly relieved to have her away and had a good week. D and I did great. W skyped a couple of times and D wasn't interested at all.
She returned and more of the same. Even more texting. D brought me the phone one day and I found out W changed her passcode, changed settings so none of msg shows on screen, had contacts identified only by icons or initials. One set of initials coming up all the time. Changed FB settings so I couldn't see her friend list. Friends told me she was posting a lot of stuff on FB that they could see, but I couldn't. W started going out dancing even more and practicing Latin dance steps in the kitchen while making dinner. Civil to me but nothing substantive.
March '19: We actually had a decent discussion (she said she's wanted to but has been afraid to talk b/c fear of conflict). I've been avoiding R discussions per DB and b/c she's always hated them. She said we've been through a lot, she's been unhappy, she was worried too much about making me happy but she can't do that alone. She lost track of who she was, had no independent identity beyond wife, mother, teacher, daughter, sister. She needed space to do the things that bring her joy and have independent friendships. I said I didn't have a problem with any of that, but she could spend time with me too. I didn't appreciate being totally dropped and treated like crap. I didn't like the sexless marriage or not knowing if our D's family will be intact or not. Things improved for a few days, she started doing some small things with me.
I figured out, almost by accident, who her new texting (and dancing) friend is. Another teacher in her school, different department. Basically her age. Female, gay. I matched person to initials. W responded yes to a dance event on FB and so did this woman, who has same FB profile pic as my W: them and, ironically, W's OW1, in a national park during the school trip abroad. W has never once mentioned this person to me except one brief mention "my friend I go dancing with." Reminds me of fall when she'd talk about all her new colleagues except OW1.
This already has gone way beyond OW1. OW1 was 45, recently divorced from a guy, had two kids who attend the school where they teach, had a relationship going, and never had any interest in my W. This possible OW2 is my wife's age, texts W nonstop, and they go out 2-3x a week. W stays longer at work now, I guess to hang with possible OW2. The same-sex aspect makes it tricky. It's possible they're just good new friends but there's every reason to believe it's at least an EA, if not a full PA.
So here we stand. Neither of us have brought up this woman's existence but I'm lonely, sexless, suspicious, and just plain tired of this. Never been in a situation like this before and in the past would have broken up long ago. But I married her, I love her very much, and I don't want to be apart from my child. This whole time she has never mentioned divorce or anyone moving out, except when I have been upset and forced a discussion. Which I don't do anymore. She seemingly has been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching. It doesn't come naturally to me at all.
M 44, W 32 T 10, M 8 D 2 Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W) Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF Still live together but a lot of tension
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I actually keep the books in my friend's garage next door. I go in there all the time to borrow tools, etc. W never goes in there. It works pretty well!
M 44, W 32 T 10, M 8 D 2 Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W) Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF Still live together but a lot of tension
Niall, welcome to the forums! You've got a pretty typical WAS on your hands, and it sounds like WW (wayward wife) as opposed to WAW. Honestly the details (being interested in women and such) don't really make much of a difference, a wayward is a wayward is a wayward. Pay special attention to Sandi's posts because she really digs into the whole wayward craziness and what to do and not do as the LBH of a wayward.
One thing I will tell you is it is not going to get better for a long, long time and will probably get much worse. Your marriage is not even on life support, it's on a marble slab with a toe tag. It's dead and gone. That doesn't mean you don't have a future R and M with her, that could very well happen. But you really need to understand that you can't "save" what you had, she's way too far gone for that. She's got to go off and explore all these "urges" and craziness she thinks she "needs" and she'll probably never be able to do it while under the same roof as you. So prepare yourself for her to leave because the chances are very good that she will.
Focus on yourself and your D. Protect yourself from her insanity. DO NOT PLAY INTO IT. No more trying to negotiate with her (such as offering to let her explore having sex with women) it's just making you look weak, pathetic and unattractive. You've got to regain control of your life and quit putting up with her crap. She has ZERO respect for you right now, and you've got to get your respect back not just to possibly attract her back again in the future but to make yourself feel better about YOU.
By early July or so we'll have to indicate if we're renewing our lease or moving out, so I'm imagining unless things are better by then she'll say she thinks we should move on separately. I'm hoping to be in a better position to get my own space locally if that comes to pass, so I can be around my D.
I've been trying to follow Sandi's rules for a while. Some of them I'm doing great, others not so much. I'm really hurt by this and have a lot of external stress at the moment as well, so appearing happy isn't always easy. I've done some really good 180s in some areas, lost weight. Trying to GAL but limited extra funds, work responsibilities, and a 2-year-old that somebody's got to take care of make it more challenging. Detaching is coming very, very slowly. I think it would be easier if we didn't have a young child.
Just trying to come to terms with what's happened. Like most people here I never believed my W could be the kind of person she's being now. I believe in open communication and trying to meet the other person. She's not in that space at all right now and all of this is very counterintuitive for me. Have to control emotions better.
M 44, W 32 T 10, M 8 D 2 Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W) Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF Still live together but a lot of tension
Oh, and don't worry, I have no intention of discussing letting her have sex with women again. From an ethical standpoint I think an affair is equally problematic whether man or woman. I read a lot in October about women, more than men, having sexual orientation that can evolve over time, and I had some sympathy for her wrestling with that.
But I've thought a lot more about it and it's not something I'm comfortable with. If I learn that she's done anything physical with OW2, I'll be done. Honestly the EA is bad enough. If not for my D I'd be ready to file by now.
M 44, W 32 T 10, M 8 D 2 Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W) Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF Still live together but a lot of tension
I asked what it meant for us and she said she didn't know. I asked if she had feelings for anyone else and she said absolutely not, and that if we broke up in the end she wouldn't want a new relationship for a long time. Those statements were...not true.
This is never true. This is a way of letting the LBS down easy. My WW did said the same thing. Even though she had been in an EA for weeks where she specifically had discussed "relationship" with the OM. "Oh but I never want to get married again." Believe NOTHING THEY SAY. NOTHING.
Originally Posted by Niall11
This already has gone way beyond OW1. OW1 was 45, recently divorced from a guy, had two kids who attend the school where they teach, had a relationship going, and never had any interest in my W. This possible OW2 is my wife's age, texts W nonstop, and they go out 2-3x a week. W stays longer at work now, I guess to hang with possible OW2. The same-sex aspect makes it tricky. It's possible they're just good new friends but there's every reason to believe it's at least an EA, if not a full PA.
So here we stand. Neither of us have brought up this woman's existence but I'm lonely, sexless, suspicious, and just plain tired of this. Never been in a situation like this before and in the past would have broken up long ago. But I married her, I love her very much, and I don't want to be apart from my child. This whole time she has never mentioned divorce or anyone moving out, except when I have been upset and forced a discussion. Which I don't do anymore. She seemingly has been doing a much better job of GAL and detaching. It doesn't come naturally to me at all.
Not going to lie, this is a tough one. Nial, it isn't like you have to compete with an OM. That is actually easier to do. But you can't compete with an OW. You just don't have the right anatomy for that. This is a journey that your W has to complete on her own. I won't get into morality since not everyone agrees on that, but if she decides that this is her path (lesbianism) then you have to make a decision for yourself. Personally I could not live in the situation you mentioned of the guy that allows his W to sleep with other women. Everyone is different, but that would not be something I could tolerate. "Forsaking all others" to me means men, women, and everything in between.
Nial I see a lot of focus on her. And it also doesn't appear to be working for you. You said GAL and detachment is not something that comes naturally to you. Guess what, it doesn't come naturally to ANYONE. Oh sure, if you weren't sure you wanted to be married anymore, and were questioning your own sexuality, then maybe it would....like it is for her. But you aren't going through what she is. For most of us GAL and detachment is HARD. And it is impossible, or darned near, when you are so focused on her.
ANd you keep mentioning lack of sex and high libido. Duh, you are a guy. We all have high libidos. And we all had to go sexless through our sitches. It will not kill you. So focus on what you can control. YOU. GO GAL. Like a madman. WOrk on detaching. (By the way, she isn't detaching...she is checking out of the marriage. Not the same thing at all.)
Hope for the best...but prepare for the worst Nial. We are here for you no matter how this turns out.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I asked what it meant for us and she said she didn't know. I asked if she had feelings for anyone else and she said absolutely not, and that if we broke up in the end she wouldn't want a new relationship for a long time. Those statements were...not true.
This is never true. This is a way of letting the LBS down easy. My WW did said the same thing. Even though she had been in an EA for weeks where she specifically had discussed "relationship" with the OM. "Oh but I never want to get married again." Believe NOTHING THEY SAY. NOTHING.
Thanks Steve. Lesson learned the hard way.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Not going to lie, this is a tough one. Nial, it isn't like you have to compete with an OM. That is actually easier to do. But you can't compete with an OW. You just don't have the right anatomy for that. This is a journey that your W has to complete on her own. I won't get into morality since not everyone agrees on that, but if she decides that this is her path (lesbianism) then you have to make a decision for yourself. Personally I could not live in the situation you mentioned of the guy that allows his W to sleep with other women. Everyone is different, but that would not be something I could tolerate. "Forsaking all others" to me means men, women, and everything in between.
Nial I see a lot of focus on her. And it also doesn't appear to be working for you. You said GAL and detachment is not something that comes naturally to you. Guess what, it doesn't come naturally to ANYONE. Oh sure, if you weren't sure you wanted to be married anymore, and were questioning your own sexuality, then maybe it would....like it is for her. But you aren't going through what she is. For most of us GAL and detachment is HARD. And it is impossible, or darned near, when you are so focused on her.
ANd you keep mentioning lack of sex and high libido. Duh, you are a guy. We all have high libidos. And we all had to go sexless through our sitches. It will not kill you. So focus on what you can control. YOU. GO GAL. Like a madman. WOrk on detaching. (By the way, she isn't detaching...she is checking out of the marriage. Not the same thing at all.)
Hope for the best...but prepare for the worst Nial. We are here for you no matter how this turns out.
Agree it's tougher to compete with OW. W has been declaring independence in a pretty hostile way and, to her, having the freedom to explore this is part of that. We have gay friends and even relatives. I have no problem with someone being LGBT. It is difficult when your wife, after 10 years together, has a sudden revelation once we have a child.
My friend for several years took your position. She said it didn't matter what she was attracted to because she made a vow to her H. She liked her men a little more muscular than he is, but it wouldn't be right to sleep around for that. And being attracted to women as well was no different. At some point they had a discussion and their little arrangement came out of it. I don't judge it but I don't think, emotionally, I could do it.
My frustration over lack of sex actually has gotten much worse since this started. Since D was born our sex life hadn't been what it was, but that's pretty normal. I wasn't thrilled but wasn't super-upset either. When we were discussing in the fall what wasn't working, this was one of the things on my mind. Since then my frustration level is through the roof and all of our biggest recent conflicts have come out of that.
GAL, in some ways, really appeals. A chance for reconnecting with old hobbies and friends, discovering new ones. But I've struggled to clear my head of all my worries, which is why I need to do GAL in the first place. Trying not to spend $, but the weather is improving here and I'm looking forward to outdoor activities.
You are right that there's too much focus on her and that it's not working for me. I've thought that it would be easier if I didn't have to see her every day and share a bed (my best week was when she was gone), but I've decided I'm not leaving my D until I have to. Suffering through this and trying to make it better for me short of leaving.
Can you explain a bit more the difference between detaching and checking out of the marriage?
M 44, W 32 T 10, M 8 D 2 Oct '18: Fantasy affair with OW1 (yes, W) Feb '19: Inseparable from new lesbian BFF Still live together but a lot of tension
