Dealing with a complex MLC and/or Wayward Wife

[LH19]

I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves.

That would be a very bad idea. You have to just drop the rope and let her go.

She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet).

PJ it doesn't matter she is moving out and you CAN'T CONTROL what she does.

As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house.

Can you give some examples of how she is trying to cake eat?

She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together).

What makes you think that? Has she said can we still do things as a family?

Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

What makes you think she is working on the relationship? Has she said I am moving out to work on the relationship?

So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves.

What are your boundaries and what are the consequences if broken?

Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b.

What if she says yes I am actively having EA/PAs? What will you do?

Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship.

Actions not words.

We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!

PJ you see this is another control thing with you. You are trying to tell her the marriage does not exist when she is already basically told you it's over. Don't even bring up the possibility of reconciling in the future. It has to be her choice to want to reconcile.

I know you feel like your life is out of control right now but I am afraid you are going to do more damage with your words. There is a saying around here that you need to open the cage door and set her free.

[AnotherStander]

^^^What LH said^^^ Just let her go. What you are suggesting is really just another R talk and I think you know the DBing stance on those.

[P_Jam]

LH & AS,
First admittedly this is still a little bit of control I get that. I'm not yet detached I don't deny that but as I have tried to convey in previous post my W has always maintained that this relationship has hope. both in actions and words however because of my snooping and information from this board I have figured it to be cake eating. My W has never actually said this relationship is over. She said she was unhappy and has been for a while (as her reason/excuse for the PA that I caught and confronted her about). She initially ended this PA (i know for a fact cause I heard it myself). She also ended other EA (although I'm not sure those were the same type of conversations) - she might have just said my H is all over me I need to slow/stop these conversations for a while as apposed to taking responsibility and actually ending them. But I know she did end the PA. This was all back before I confronted her with the PA (remember I confronted her after everything was 'ended' but then I exposed my infidelity in the past, as well as admitted to the bugging. Once we actually made the decision for to move out she slowly started getting in contact with the PA and EA - but I'm confident she has not met up with any of them physically again - yet.


If it wasn't for me she would probably still be living in the house. She said she was looking for a place to live (but taking her sweet time to find a place). Then I snooped again and caught the random on night stand. I did not confront her about this PA at all, I just told her I agree that it's not really working with us in the same house. You aren't really 'working' on anything and I think you should move out - in 30 days. So I have never once had a conversation with her about this latest event. Through indirect ways she thinks that I might know (someone told me) but it's not been confirmed in her mind and because I have not confronted her - she may not believe I actually know for sure. And she's smart enough not to press the issue and open Pandora box just in case I don't really know what happened. I also know that this one night stand really threw her for a loop. When I was snooping she had conversations with a friend saying "What was I thinking, I didn't even know this guy? I can't believe I did that. I have I really done enough in this relationship? How did we get here and do I really need to move out to figure this stuff out?". <-- clearly compulsion.

Yes, she has told me and the kids that we are still going to be doing things as a family while we decide what works best for the entire family as we move forward. Just yesterday as we were splitting up holidays for the parenting plan (with my lawyer - she does not have one). She made comments about certain holidays Christmas, 4th of July, etc - that she is assuming she will be here with me/us at the family house for some of these. Basically assuming that after a little time and space we will be more friendly, possibly 'dating' again and doing family stuff. <-- this has always been her approach to the separation.

I know she is in contact with both the EA's and the PA - but the EA's are associated with work and right now it would not be possible for her to totally cut them off. I don't know if the conversations are more professional now or not. I'm just assuming - not. I know with the one PA she really doesn't see anything long-term and from what I know they have hung out multiple times in the last few months but have only been physical once. <-- not that this is an excuse but this is why I believe she is still really confused. She likes the attention, it is filling a void. She might even get physical again to let things play out. But for her this entire separation has been about 'space' to figure things out between us (and definitely still working on our relationship). I"m the one that has drawn the hard line. Because I know we can't really work on the R if she is still out playing the field. However, because of my NGS and being afraid that she will turn the snooping/bugging around on me again I have been chicken to confront her again with everything that I know.

This is why I thought of the exit interview. I would still probably not let her know how much detail I have about all the EA's/PA's but I would make it clear that I'm aware it is many more than the 1 or 2 I have confronted her on.

There is a good chance she is thinking that I only know about 1 EA and 1 PA - both supposedly ended already. And the separation/moving out is more about the bugging (her not feeling comfortable in the house) and taking a little time to figure out why she did those things. Which makes sense, until you factor in the fact that I actually know more than this. I also understand that her actions are compulsive (I don't think she understand this yet). I have my 'reasons' for my infidelity and it took me a while to realize I was compulsive and that the issues were inside me. Not her or our relationship. She is definitely wayward and I don't deny she able to do this due to lack of respect for me. That being said; i do believe she has fully convinced herself that it's because she believe she's missing "Mr. Right" and the passion/honeymoon feeling is the way relationship should be all the time. She knows/believes i have something to do with putting her in this situation but she has never tried to outwardly blame me or our relationship for her actions. Only that she has "some stuff to figure out". Because of this board I believe this all to be cake eating - but in my gut I don't believe it to be outward manipulation - meaning that I don't think she consciously knows she is keeping me as a safety net (plan b). I think she wants it to work out, but we all know that it will never work out until she figures her stuff out on her own (but she doesn't know/believe this is ultimately her responsibility and doesn't realize this is all fantasy.) In my opinion it is cake eating but more on the subconscious level then continuous.

[LH19]

PJ,

Look man you can spin it all you want but I have yet to see a single situation where the WW leaves the house to work on the marriage. Steve has a saying that "WWs don't move out for space they move out to sleep with other people". She will say anything to keep you off her back so she can move out without resistance.

I agree about the entire fantasy life she is trying to live but she is no different then any other WW. She is moving out to pursue her fantasy and whether you want to be or not, you are her Plan B right now.

[AnotherStander]

...but as I have tried to convey in previous post my W has always maintained that this relationship has hope. both in actions and words however because of my snooping and information from this board I have figured it to be cake eating.

I would call it manipulation rather than cake-eating. It's very common for WAS's to "dangle the carrot" as a way of keeping you on the hook and coercing you into giving them whatever it is they want (better settlement in the D, more of an "allowance", letting them stay in the house while you move out, etc.) It's just hollow talk though. Cake-eating is more like going off and having a fling with OM and then coming home and playing house like nothing is wrong.

My W has never actually said this relationship is over.

Neither did my XW. Don't get hung up on semantics. It's pretty clear she's done, for now.

Yes, she has told me and the kids that we are still going to be doing things as a family while we decide what works best for the entire family as we move forward.

While having an affair or two or three. Now THAT is cake-eating.

She made comments about certain holidays Christmas, 4th of July, etc - that she is assuming she will be here with me/us at the family house for some of these. Basically assuming that after a little time and space we will be more friendly, possibly 'dating' again and doing family stuff. <-- this has always been her approach to the separation.

If your intent is to let her know this isn't going to happen then that's fine. Just don't turn it into a R talk, right? Just tell her "we won't be spending family time together, we need to work out visitation over the holidays with that in mind." Keep it strictly business.

I know she is in contact with both the EA's and the PA - but the EA's are associated with work and right now it would not be possible for her to totally cut them off. I don't know if the conversations are more professional now or not. I'm just assuming - not.

It doesn't really matter, not unless she expresses real, genuine interest in reconciling. Until then just let it go. You already know she's a cheater, the how, when, who and why doesn't really matter much.

[sandi2]

One question for you Sandy (not sure if you read through my entire sitch). Based on where I am now (WW). I plan to go dark/grey as soon as she is out basically LRT. I haven't talked about R or pursued in over 3 weeks. So when she goes I plan to just keep any communication about the kids. Do you agree with this strategy? Not sure I really have any other options.

I would think you are already applying the LRT, since you asked her to leave. I mean, physical separation can be one of the last resort steps the LBS takes when his/her spouse refuses to end their wayward lifestyle, rather than working on the MR.

I don't believe in this "going grey". It's a pet peeve of mine, and my take on going dark may be different than some other posters. I believe it was in Divorce Remedy, (if not then another book I read) that said going dark was the last phase of the LRT. It's where the LBS falls off the face of the planet and the wayward spouse never has contact from him. Complete blackout. IMHO, that would be an impossible task when co-parenting children. I do think couples who have no children can go dark.

I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves. She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet).

An exit interview? I think that's a new one for the board. So, bottom line, you want your WW to know that she has not pulled any wool over your eyes...….plus, it's bugging you that she's not been confronted, "officially"? What is it you wish to accomplish? You've already asked her to move out, so if you didn't confront her about the latest guy before you asked her to leave, I don't see the point of confronting.

Here's where I stand on the subject of confrontation. It begs for a consequence. Just like when a parent confronts their teenager about some wayward behavior they've shown, that parent better be ready to ground them or something else. I mean, the first time it happens, you may be able to confront, talk through it and point out all the issues and then say, "Just don't let it happen again". However, if it does happen again...….then what? Another talk? Do you see what I'm saying?

As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house. She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together). Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves. Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b. Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship. We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!

It doesn't work. You and your WW have already made the decision to separate. She will see this as your way to control and/or punish her.

First, there's not a lot you can do about her cake eating as long as she's under the same roof with you. I think trying to just live peacefully for three more weeks would be the way to go, in this case. Why? B/c you've waited too late to start cracking the whip about how much cake she gets at this point. I mean, you can stop catering to her, things of that nature, but it doesn't require a R talk. In fact, it's more effective to just let her figure out why things have changed for her.

Now about discussing your boundaries...…...no, that is not effective, either. Your boundaries are set up to protect your feelings, and they don't have to be explained or negotiated in order to enforce them. Is this separation not the consequences of her dishonoring your boundaries, and the boundaries of the MR? Does she not know why you asked her to move out? See, I am wondering how this all went down and if you were clear about everything. Does she see herself leaving you b/c you lied to her? If that's the case, and since both of you are guilty of inappropriate behavior (at the least) and having an A (at the most)……….I can't see where this discussion would get you anywhere close to a positive note.

I'm sure it's frustrating to become better educated in DBing after the fact, so to speak. However, you can't go back now and try to say/do the things that should have been done before you told her to move out. Make sense?

I suggest you not do ANYTHING without running it by the board and giving it a couple of days. Years ago, 72 hours was the amount of waiting time suggested. These days, it's hard to get people to just hold up for a couple of days before they say or act on their feelings or act on something new they've read in a book. I also want to point out that the advice you may read on another person's thread, may not apply in your situation. People get carried away and think there is one set of rules that apply for every sitch under the sun.

Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship.

No, no, you don't explain this to her. (She can't have family time if you don't partake.) This is something the WW can figure out for herself. If you take it upon yourself to tell her, then she'll mark it down to you being uncooperative. punitive, controlling, etc. But if she has to experience less family time, it will eventually occur to her that this is the consequences when families break up. She may not take complete responsibility for it ..….but that's not your decision to make. She may put the breakup all on your shoulders. There will have to be a lot of family therapy before the relationship heals, b/c of the cheating on both sides.

I want you to think of something about this cheating on both sides. I can't remember when you said you stopped everything, but I remember you confessed the A to your WW when you confronted her about her A. Although she was behaving like GGW and hooking up with guys, the news of your A's and the two years of lying was fresh to her. You had been snooping on her, and had known for awhile about her A, but she was hit all at once about you. If I am incorrect, tell me. I don't know if she had suspicioned you of cheating, but I can promise you she's going to throw it in your face if you approach her as "the more faithful spouse than her" with some of these things you want to say.

With that said, how are you holding up through the withdrawals since you've stopped sexting?

I encourage you to keep coming to the board, and continue getting professional help. Focus on healing yourself first. ((hugs))

[P_Jam]

LH - Thanks! I get it! I'm actually not trying to 'spin' what will actually happen at the 'love shack' once she moves out. I get it. And it is one of the hardest things for me to think about. But I accept this as not only fact, but necessary as she we'll definitely have to play some of this out before the fog even begins to lift. Logically I know this, emotionally it kills me.

As always where we might differ is the timeline <-- and I'm probably in denial but I will hold out hope that she is 'smarter' then some of the rest and will really want to rebuild the family structure sooner than later. Having faith for who she USED to be and that she will find that sooner than later is not denial (unless I refuse to actually detach which is the more important thing).

I really appreciate your active advice on my thread and don't want you to feel like I'm always arguing/debating - as the 2x4's of reality are necessary for me. But my long post above was to try and provide all the background as it specifically related to my exit interview idea. Because I've now become much more educated on my NGS and the fact that I haven't been very direct with her (although I have taken some correct actions). There is a strong part of me now that wants to make sure I'm setting the correct boundaries (verbally) with her before she leaves. Letting her know why her picture of how we move forward once she is living in the love shack is viewed significantly different between us. I know it is next to impossible but I am trying to be objective. I feel this way for a few reasons. One, the NGS and wanting to be more direct. My IC thinks that it's best that I get EVERYTHING on the table as it MIGHT help to start and break the fog (because if she isn't aware how much I know, and why I feel there is no 'working' on the R. She won't be able to dilute or rationalize as much when she knows I'm aware of how big/bad the problem is. Third, because of my own history with sexual compulsivity I'm interested in pointing out the compulsive behavior one last time. Just to try and plant the seed that this is a compulsive issue (Limmerence etc.) and not necessarily the wrong person/relationship. As she has seemed open to IC in the past and actually committed to me that she will get it (but may not be with the same IC as me). I know this may not come to fruition but no need to give up hope. She has a couple of 'bad apples' that she is spending more time with, but she also has a very large group of happily married friends that she is conversing with and spending time with that I think are being much more objective with her. So although I'm sure we also disagree on how far down the rabbit hole she may be... Would you still say/suggest that having an exit interview is bad and nothing should be spoken - only actions? or a non-issue just don't have any expectations? or something else? So don't be soft - but specifically to the Exit interview - Yay? nay? Why?

I have to admit that; Another Stander's comments "this is only another R talk" makes a little sense. But is there really NO benefit in having one to clarify my position? It is a R talk, but it is not pursuing. I don't see how it would set me back in anyway. But please continue to educate me.

[P_Jam]

I don't believe in this "going grey". It's a pet peeve of mine, and my take on going dark may be different than some other posters. I believe it was in Divorce Remedy, (if not then another book I read) that said going dark was the last phase of the LRT. It's where the LBS falls off the face of the planet and the wayward spouse never has contact from him. Complete blackout. IMHO, that would be an impossible task when co-parenting children. I do think couples who have no children can go dark.

We have children that is why I called it going 'grey'. I can't fall off the face of the earth. But I do plan to continue DB and not checking in on ANYTHING with her that is not related to the kids. As well as ignoring any texts from her that are not about the kids.

I'm thinking about having the equivalent of an 'exit interview' with her before she moves. She has an idea that I know about her last PA (although I did not confront her directly so it's never been an official conversation). Furthermore, she might be under the impression that I still believe that she has ended the other EA's/PA's (I know she has not - but she may not have gotten physical again - yet).

An exit interview? I think that's a new one for the board. So, bottom line, you want your WW to know that she has not pulled any wool over your eyes...….plus, it's bugging you that she's not been confronted, "officially"? What is it you wish to accomplish? You've already asked her to move out, so if you didn't confront her about the latest guy before you asked her to leave, I don't see the point of confronting.

My thought here is specific to two things. Practicing being more direct and confrontational (NGS). Also the escalation to the random one night stand with a stranger is new for her, and I know it affected her emotionally. She did/does feel remorse for this particular behavior (much more than the others). So I wanted to drive the the point home that I'm aware of this and highlight the compulsive nature of the scenario and that it is getting worse.

Here's where I stand on the subject of confrontation. It begs for a consequence. Just like when a parent confronts their teenager about some wayward behavior they've shown, that parent better be ready to ground them or something else. I mean, the first time it happens, you may be able to confront, talk through it and point out all the issues and then say, "Just don't let it happen again". However, if it does happen again...….then what? Another talk? Do you see what I'm saying?

Kind of.. but it is more of a parting shot <-- maybe a bad term but refer to above about compulsive behavior- considering my plan of action does not really change no matter what she says. One underlying current her is the compulsive issue. I had a compulsive sexual issue myself and months ago when I first confronted her about PA I asked if she felt she couldn't control her urges. She strongly rebuffed this idea. But I now know that there might be a crack in this thinking for her.

[quote]As you know she is trying to cake eat as much as she can while she is still in the house. She also seems to be under the impression that we will still be doing 'family' stuff on some weekends (ya know to keep the family unit together). Essentially, I think she is covering for cake eating in the future by acting like she is 'working on our relationship' when we are together as a family - when really it's just cake eating.

So, I thought it would be important to have a talk about what my boundaries are and why as it pertains to our relationship after the moves. Explain to her that; I believe she is still actively having EA's/PA's (details don't matter) and that I will not be ANYONE'S plan b. Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship. We will be 'friends' and we will work together as co-parents to make the transition for our children as smooth as possible - but our MR DOES NOT EXIST and if/when you are ready we can discuss the possibility of building something in the future - but not until you are done with OM!

It doesn't work. You and your WW have already made the decision to separate. She will see this as your way to control and/or punish her.

First, there's not a lot you can do about her cake eating as long as she's under the same roof with you. I think trying to just live peacefully for three more weeks would be the way to go, in this case. Why? B/c you've waited too late to start cracking the whip about how much cake she gets at this point. I mean, you can stop catering to her, things of that nature, but it doesn't require a R talk. In fact, it's more effective to just let her figure out why things have changed for her.

Now about discussing your boundaries...…...no, that is not effective, either. Your boundaries are set up to protect your feelings, and they don't have to be explained or negotiated in order to enforce them. Is this separation not the consequences of her dishonoring your boundaries, and the boundaries of the MR? Does she not know why you asked her to move out? See, I am wondering how this all went down and if you were clear about everything. Does she see herself leaving you b/c you lied to her? If that's the case, and since both of you are guilty of inappropriate behavior (at the least) and having an A (at the most)……….I can't see where this discussion would get you anywhere close to a positive note.

She does not really know why I asked her to move out. She thinks it just because I did not feel like she was working on the R. In reality it was because she slept with someone else (which was a boundary I set early on for staying in the house). <-- This is why I have such a drive to clarify and confront.

I'm sure it's frustrating to become better educated in DBing after the fact, so to speak. However, you can't go back now and try to say/do the things that should have been done before you told her to move out. Make sense?

I suggest you not do ANYTHING without running it by the board and giving it a couple of days. Years ago, 72 hours was the amount of waiting time suggested. These days, it's hard to get people to just hold up for a couple of days before they say or act on their feelings or act on something new they've read in a book. I also want to point out that the advice you may read on another person's thread, may not apply in your situation. People get carried away and think there is one set of rules that apply for every sitch under the sun.

I can give it a couple of days easily.. My thought is really to do it at the very end. Setting the groundwork for how our communication will abruptly change once she at the new address. so I've got 2-3 weeks

Therefore I don't see a lot of 'family' time for us until you are ready to actively work on your issues and our relationship.

No, no, you don't explain this to her. (She can't have family time if you don't partake.) This is something the WW can figure out for herself. If you take it upon yourself to tell her, then she'll mark it down to you being uncooperative. punitive, controlling, etc. But if she has to experience less family time, it will eventually occur to her that this is the consequences when families break up. She may not take complete responsibility for it ..….but that's not your decision to make. She may put the breakup all on your shoulders. There will have to be a lot of family therapy before the relationship heals, b/c of the cheating on both sides.

This makes a lot of sense to me! As far as family time I will NOT explain it. But what about she asks? "why can't we grab lunch with the kids after their football game? Really, I can't come in and see you when I drop off the kids? etc.

I want you to think of something about this cheating on both sides. I can't remember when you said you stopped everything, but I remember you confessed the A to your WW when you confronted her about her A. Although she was behaving like GGW and hooking up with guys, the news of your A's and the two years of lying was fresh to her. You had been snooping on her, and had known for awhile about her A, but she was hit all at once about you. If I am incorrect, tell me. I don't know if she had suspicioned you of cheating, but I can promise you she's going to throw it in your face if you approach her as "the more faithful spouse than her" with some of these things you want to say.

Noted. and you are correct about the time line and sitch. I stopped over 2yrs ago. I do not look at myself as the more faithful. Only the more recovered. and slightly more knowledgeable/educated on the causes.

With that said, how are you holding up through the withdrawals since you've stopped sexting?

Sexting was never the issue.. I think you mean 'snooping'. I'm definitely going through some withdrawal. It didn't really matter if it was good or bad information I received, it felt good to have something to do in regards to the sitch as well as getting immediate feedback for my LRT <-- I could understand/know how it was affecting her. But I will get there. I just keep telling myself that stopping now while she is in the house as a ramp down instead of a cold hard stop when she is no longer around is best for me.

I encourage you to keep coming to the board, and continue getting professional help. Focus on healing yourself first. ((hugs))

Yes, I will probably be even more active as this is where I can feel like "I'm doing something" for the sitch without messing up my DB!

[P_Jam]

I don't think I 'quoted' correctly in the above.. You have to read through to see where I answered your questions directly. Sorry!

[AnotherStander]

I have to admit that; Another Stander's comments "this is only another R talk" makes a little sense. But is there really NO benefit in having one to clarify my position? It is a R talk, but it is not pursuing. I don't see how it would set me back in anyway. But please continue to educate me.

Personally I don't think there's anything to be gained because she has a wayward mindset right now. She doesn't want to work with you on the M, she wants out. This isn't the time to negotiate or lay down rules. At some point she may hit rock bottom and decide she wants to come back. If she gets there, she will be humble, apologetic, and open to working with you for real. Until that happens there's just no point in discussing it because she's inside the castle with the drawbridge pulled up.

In my previous post I called her a "lying cheater". I don't do that to disparage her, I do it to drive home the point of who she is -right now-. She may have been a wonderful person before, and she may be again in the future. But right now she's engaging in immoral behavior and spinning it in her head to be all your fault. As long as she's in the wayward "lying cheater" mode there is just no reasoning or negotiating with her.