Oh shoot, I didn't see your new thread and I posted to the previous thread.
Great, that sounds good.
Regarding your question about how often we check other board members' threads, I was on the board nearly all the time I wasn't at work or asleep. I think it's fairly common for newcomers. Eventually, it begins to taper off. I've read where some people have to take a break b/c it's depressing for them to read about all the misery. Personally, I think it's a good idea if you find it affecting you negatively more than it's helping.
These days, I mostly reply to H's who have a wayward W. There are a few reasons for that decision, and I won't bother to explain, only that I feel I can be more helpful due to my personal experience and studies about WW's. Even then, I can't keep up with the same amount that I once was able to do. I find myself having to go back over the thread just to refresh my memory. Ugh!
So, don't feel you must read every sitch/thread. Don't feel that you have to check every day. If you are spending more time on the board than you are spending GAL or with your family.........I would suggest you set so many minutes for board time, and then shut it off and go join people IRT. Remember, balance, balance, balance. Your goal should be to not get extreme on anything.
Last edited by Cadet; 03/20/1908:19 PM. Reason: moved post here
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re the present, maybe not use those words on the card , ask one of the ladies to come up with something. Go small but VERY thoughtful on the present. IMO
Tomorrow is W birthday at MIL. Still distant in conversation with W unless trival, superficial, or logistical matters.
Like "How was your day" " Oh I can't believe they sold that house across the street" "Look at that plane" (her being positively pleasant for the sake of) , etc... I've stopped initiating any convo, unless it is a matter to be addressed. She can live in silence forever in front of just me and S when we are alone for all I care. But she will put on a good people pleasing front in front of others despite everyone now knowing we are seperating. (I find it to be phony of her character) Then will say I'm rude at family affairs for being quiet, and not engaging in conversation with her as third-party and other people. One on one im fine with everyone else making small talk.
I will presumably wind up being quiet, (which is far from my typical nature) in front of W and family, and not because of In Laws. In laws are great. I just feel like a failure and disappointment when I'm with W around family, even my own I clam up with W there. (Again not typically like me at all.
I can put on a pleasant front if i need to, and switch gears if I will it or feel like it, and man up and be happy for the sake of our S. But I'm not really one to conceal my emotions or thoughts, happy or sad.
The more I learn about emotional regulation, and the traits BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and Histrionic Personality Disorder. I am shocked at how many attributes I have displayed in emotional context, behavior and thinking.
I don't know if i should attend or not, because I don't want to play family with someone who will be separating from me, and is emotionally unavailable. On the other hand, she is a behaviorist, and im not necessarily mind reading here, but I think she knows to be emotionally unavailable to me to regain and protect her sence of self. Because all R talks we have had in last 6 months usually has a time limit result of her shutting down the convo and her emotions. Sources on BPD may have directed her to go NC on me, since she realizes I may be gauging for a reaction in every little thing I do or don't do.
I am fascinated with self differention, relationships, and other characteristics, but also confusing me as well as what the right decision is.
MIL is aware I may or may not show up. I decided to do something nice but not grandiose, and am planning picking up custom cake and leaving presents there with card for her. (My 180 from past)
Should I go? Shouldnt I go? What is best? I know some say here to "Stop playing family" and others say take every opportunity to spend time with family and Spouse every chance you get. Leading to more confusion.
What do you guys think from a healthy emotional and psychological perspective?
My flawed (and easily influenced) thinking sometimes is. If she wants space, give her space, if she wants silence, or emotionally ignore me, then give her silence, or short polite scarce superficial responses, if she wants to seperate, then I'm going to act like it, by possibly not attending family functions. If she wants to ask how was my day, I will answer. Sometimes I ask how was hers, sometimes I don't just out of principle. If she wants to sit in front of me for 4 hrs and only interact with S. Im fine with that. If i make funny playful comments with son or what s on tv, sometimes she laughs, sometimes she completely ignores. To me its a mind "F$!#" game, to her its probably preservation of self.
But I can't help but question my own sanity. Like am I being perceived as rude or manipulative in doing what I am doing from a healthy psychological perspective? One thing is for sure. Need to keep busy for me, get out of house when not watching S1 and talk with family and people that understand and appreciate candidacy, since she no longer does.
I could probably 180 everything on her list, and it wouldn't have any impact. Im done attaching feelings, self worth, and psychological integrity to someone that doesn't want me. On the other hand, I understand why for her for a lot of different reasons, some which may have to do with me in the marriage, and some reasons that don't. She has her own work to do.
My flawed (and easily influenced) thinking sometimes is. If she wants space, give her space, if she wants silence, or emotionally ignore me, then give her silence, or short polite scarce superficial responses, if she wants to seperate, then I'm going to act like it, by possibly not attending family functions.
When you act these ways, you appear punitive. If you can't be sociable at your W's birthday party, then don't attend. How awkward for your in-laws, if you sit silently and refuse to participate.......thinking you are really showing your W a thing or two!
You cannot balance, Robert. Why would you have a custom cake made, with a birthday card from you.....just to leave for her, and not attend the party? Talk about a "mind "F$!#" game"......you seem to be very good at it. You say the cake would be a 180 degree, but then you ruin the 180 by leaving the cake and not attending the party....or attending but acting quiet and not socializing much. Your decision to act cold and give her the silent treatment destroys the efforts you put into the 180. I'm not telling you to go or not go. I'm saying the two actions don't agree. Having a custom cake, with a nice BD card.......and then purposely refusing to attend the birthday party your in-laws are having......don't match. If you were female, I would think you were trying to steal the spotlight on your W's birthday. That's how it looks. However, I really think you are having trouble balancing some of the things you've read.
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If she wants to ask how was my day, I will answer. Sometimes I ask how was hers, sometimes I don't just out of principle. If she wants to sit in front of me for 4 hrs and only interact with S. Im fine with that. If i make funny playful comments with son or what s on tv, sometimes she laughs, sometimes she completely ignores. To me its a mind "F$!#" game, to her its probably preservation of self.
Sometimes you don't ask how her day was......just out of principle? What principle would that be?
That last sentence is so, so sad. Like I tried to tried you in your previous thread, these actions are not working for you. What do you suppose would happen if you stopped with the punitive behavior?
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But I can't help but question my own sanity. Like am I being perceived as rude or manipulative in doing what I am doing from a healthy psychological perspective? One thing is for sure. Need to keep busy for me, get out of house when not watching S1 and talk with family and people that understand and appreciate candidacy, since she no longer does.
Well all we have is what you've shared, and from your own posts you sound like there are times you are rude, and I don't know about manipulative.......but you seem to want to inflict pain on your W, or at least, make her sorry she ever thought about leaving you. Personally, I don't see that being healthy for anyone.
Maybe your W is too sensitive to your "candid" way of talking.....especially when speaking to her. Everyone is not raised in a family that speaks bluntly, and with little care of how it hurts the listener. Maybe you think she should toughen up and get use to it. Maybe she can't. Maybe she tries, but still gets offended. Then what do you do? Never talk to her? I don't know what the answer is for the two of you, I only know what you are currently doing is not working.
You've written about how the two of you are different. What are some things you both enjoy? What attracted to her to you?
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I could probably 180 everything on her list, and it wouldn't have any impact. Im done attaching feelings, self worth, and psychological integrity to someone that doesn't want me.
Interesting statement. Why would you attach self worth and psychological integrity to another person?
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It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I have stopped with the punitive behavior. I have been polite and mostly positive when I come home everyday for 4 months. I put my phone away, I spend time with S1, I ask interactive questions. Im going to go to party tomorrow. She said "it would be nice" in a matter of fact" tone. I have tried and tried and tried to even just make light conversation without pursuing. "How was your day?" "Anything interesting happen today?" "What's going on at work?" "How's your folks?" "Does our son need anything?" "Are you feeling ok, you look runned down?"
I'm acting positive around her. Jokes brushed off, little response, ignored to phone and tv. Sometimes I have to repeat myself 3 times if asking a question, and I get constant excuses, "Sorry im zoned out today. "Sorry I have my period" "Sorry I had to restrain that kid at work today" While all legitimate reasons, still very avoidant and only conversed with me when necessary. I know not all, but most of the time its intentional, because S1 gets smothered by her now. Gets all the laughs, attention, conversation, the constant ILY'S, now she's calling him babe, the happy tonality, interactions, and smiles. All after myself getting the same ignored treatment, monotoned resposes, and neutral modality. The TV and FB gets more laughter and attention then I do. So rather than overstay my welcome, I go off and do my own thing in thr house or spend time with S1.
Now before anyone goes off on here calling me insecure, needy, craving for attention, jealous of my my child and stuff like that. Im telling everyone, I know what I am experiencing and seeing, and the behavior change torwards me in last 3 months is crystal clear. I'm not that emotionally obtuse. She will put on a good and pleasing act in front of company though. Im telling you there is unresolved unrelying resentment there. Subtle but unresolved on her part.
So the other night, she needed a hand changing S1, I was in the middle of peeing. She got disappointed I couldn't help her fast enough. I calmly told her I was peeing, and then helped her, then asked her. "What are you going to resent me for the rest of your life because I was peeing?" She said YES!!!
I know I have my emotion stress triggers which contributed to down fall of MR amongst a list of other perceived bad habits and behaviors, but I am not intentionally being punitive, and 180 the bad ones the best I can. I am clearly being ignored, brushed off, avoided, and emotionally gaurded by her even just for a few laughs. Sometimes it doesn't even,phase me because I've gotten so used to it past couple of months. Other times it just pisses me off, and makes me feel stuck. I don't show it, but none the less. Im not asking her to return to the marriage, its inevitable that we seperate in the months to come. I can't change that, or her, or her decision, and im ok with it at times, and other times the thought of starting over of course saddens me, pisses me off, etc. But hell, im just asking for a friendly positive conversation. One that isn't superficial, or short responsed.
Now I know I know....Focus on you, GAL, control the things you have control over like yourself, don't let someone else's response to you affect your happiness, let it roll off your shoulders, like water on a ducks back, have no expectations, believe half of what they do and none of what they say, detach, etc...
So where is the balance? What the hell am I supposed to do? (Not directed at anyone here, and appreciate all your help, time and input..just frustrated.) I'm not pursuing, haven't been for a while, haven't brought up R talks. She has no problem expressing enthusiasm over idea of new potential apartment, new growth ideas, new hobbies, etc...to me. Its all about her. I guess she has been selfless for so long, she's finally putting herself first in every aspect.
Even if I can stay consistently detached, shift my focus totally to myself, NC, etc. build myself up, have fun, be positive, etc. I don't think it will have any impact. Im not necessarily looking for a reaction from her, but if avoiding someone is rude, and being pleasant is pursuit, then where is the middle ground for what works? As if I was treating this as not only a change for myself but an objective social experiment. Any advice?
Now I know im going to sound like I'm making broad and sweeping generalizations again. Just a reoccurring thought. I know Men and Women get divorced for a multitude of different reasons. Abuse, neglect, personality mismatch, musunderstandings, affairs, MLC, outside influences, inside influences, habits, behaviors, just for the hell of it?
At the risk of looking for something to blame, and sounding like a conspiracy theorist, there must be solid reason(s) either due to degradatoon of familial breakdown, personality conflict, spiritual and religious degradation, social, pop culture, or other media programming and influences, why statistically 70% of women in America in Western culture initiate divorce, over 30% of Men. This isn't meant to take a jab at the ladies, and my heart just wants to hug every lady that is an LBS on here that has to deal with Men cheating, MLC, or just wanting to leave their marriage just because... Marriage is supposed to be holy and sacred, not legal. Non religious people may disagree with me here and that's fine. But there has to be multiple significant reasons of bad programming why divorce is pervasive in the West. Any debaters or opinions on the topic is welcome.
IHC, I've often said that marriage is to easy to get into, and too easy to get out of. I think if we go back to stricter laws about what one had to do to get married, and only allowing at fault divorces and things would change.
Another interesting stat, divorce is almost non-existent in cultures with arranged marriages. Makes you think, doesn't it?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I have a question for LH19 as far as co- mingling and parenting. But first I wanted to share a little familial history and establish mindsets on the different dynamics between my W and my own family regarding the subject of divorce. The thing is neither one of our families really believe in Divorce, however we both have different experiences with it within our families.
W's side of family W's Aunt has been divorced from ex husband because of him cheating over 35 years ago. However Aunt and her XH are friends, and XH still attends all family affairs amicably with his new W and everyone gets along just fine.
The Aunt has just recently remarried after 35 years. The Aunt had a best friend for over 30 years ago from nursing school. The Aunt interestingly enough, remarried her now former best friend's XH. Her now ex best friend was somewhat of a toxic person. The Aunt recently married her ex best friend's XH a year after he was divorced, and they started dating. The Aunt is now married to him as of this past year.
As of this last month, my BIL, W's youngest sibling, was married for a year, and is now seperated after just buying a house. His W BD'd him 2 months after my W BD'd me.
Also for years, but even more so now. My W has been hanging out with my youngest brother's ex GF from 7 years ago, who is now also recently divorced. After having a special needs child, her XH was somewhat neglecting according to her.
This is probably where my W gets her presumptions that I am willing to attend all family functions, and continue to be involved amicably even though we are to be seperated in future. Her family members love me unconditionally and wants me around for occasions in future.
I will elaborate on our discussion which occurred on her birthday 2 days ago, further down the paragraphs.
As far as my family. My older brother is the only immediate family member of mine to experience a very nasty, hostile and turbulent divorce, where my XSIL was mentally ill. Both parties were ruined from the family courts, physically injured from authorites, custodial battles for 15 years, etc. My nieces are grown now. My oldest estranged brother's W is the sister of my other brother's XW. All of this has caused great tension for many reasons over the last 30 years. My oldest brother's W seperated from him 16 years ago, has had 2 MLC's and was experiencing "the grass is greener effect" on both occasions.
When my W and I were first married, she picked my two nieces as flower girls, but wanted there Mom, my older brother's XW present at the wedding to care for my nieces, to alleviate my W responsibility of caring for them, since they were a bit wild then. My family and myself were adamant about not having my brother's XW there because of the hostility. Futhermore, my oldest brother, W and kids were invited, but not the sister. None the less when it came to family photo time, I was on edge, and not present that day because, for other reasons, and also because of my father who was an instigator. But I know that I can only control me, and shouldn't have to apologize for anyone.
My W's family pushed to have the ex at our wedding, and me and my family pushed to not invite her. Although our families never spoke to one another about this, they used my W and I as go betweens to make a decision. Thus caused great tension between us early on. My family are also very dysfunctional co dependant, very disgustingly disorganized, and lack healthy life skills. They are the "misery loves company" types. Supportive in convo, but not heakthyin lifestyle. Lack of vision and growth. So I have no support system for change, and an going at new life. Nor can I fall back to live with them temporarily nor would I want to.
So here we have two different beliefs and exoeriences as far as family's perspective. We don't believe in divorce according to we are raised. Also I might mention my W is Protestant and somewhat Liberal, and had a GM and GF in ministry. I am currently a non practing Catholic, but have deep biblical beliefs. have become very conservative about politics and spirituality over the years. Especially with divorce. I don't believe in it. Period. Although. I have blurted it many times before out of frustration in the MR when living habits would collide frequently. My mistake.
So my W isn't taking D off the table and would like a few years of space, time, counciling, and healing to work out her feelings, re-develop her sence of self again, and pursue her newly found goals, fantasies, dreams, lifestyles, self growth and possibly other relationships. She is no longer romantically attracted to me. But who cares at this point.
We have had many traumatic events occur with both our families over past 1p years. Divorce, suicide, ill family members, deceased members, financial struggles, dynamics changing, members moving away, etc. You know. Life. We have also had a lot of dynamic issues inside MR with careers, finances, housing, child rearing, etc. She seems to equate all this to our marriage, even though the events stem from both sides. Its no wonder they go into fight or flight mode.
Now onto the other night after W's bday. I got a very appreciative thank you, recognition for real thoughtfulness and consideration, got a hug, and a long discussion last night with her initiating and doing ALL THE TALKING, where I just shut up, validated and listened, and literally did none of the talking.
We haven't talked, or she hasn't showed me any emotion or discussion in last 2month or so, and we have been somewhat avoiding each other living in IHS for about 2 months. BD was 6 months ago. Over the last 2 months since IHS we only discuss logistics, and financials, avoiding any inter-personal discussions. I have now held back in revealing anything personal, since it won't get reciprocated emotionally anyway. Just validated by her. She has been emotionally closed off until birthday, has dropped individual MC, and is now looking for new LSCW IC.
The post birthday convo was somewhat amusing because beteeen her pausing, in convo, I wouldnt say anything, and just look at her as if she had something else to say, and she would go right along talking without me having to say or ask anything. (Not reading into it.) But I want to explain the context of the convo, and I have a question regarding co-parenting and family affairs.
The context of the convo was her expressing real gratitude and sincerity for the bday presents, and card (The theme was relating to her new future life seperated.) (She wants to grow saffron and lavendar, start a micro farm, and live in a tiny home) She also expressed the same concern I had earlier in the month about where she is going to live, how we are both overwhelmed how we are going to purge all the stuff in our current home, fix the house, get it on the market and sell it.
She started to grasp the realities and her feelings about being a single mom, and how scary its going to be for her, how she will be responsible for more, how she won't be protected, and how she is going to have to do a lot of things on her own, be somewhat lonely, but then transitioned to on how she is going to see me every other day with the exchange of our S1.
This is where it gets interesting....
Because I attended her Bday at MIL, got the cake, presents, and everything, (My 180 from past exp.)
She went on to express how in the future, I could be present at all her family occasions. She was actually asking me if I wanted to accompany her and my son to go to the beach next week, on a weekday, despite me having to work, and and having a lot of current money issues. I declined for obvious reasons. She has always done things like this in past inside MR, not realizing my own needs for work, and assuming availability. She went on to mention that I can still go on vacation, and hang out with her relatives, and this seperation can be an amicable one where I can always be involved with her, and her family lives unconditionally. with her relatives, MIL, FIL, etc, and still hang out and maintain relations. She was forecasting, romanticizing, and assuming how I am always going to still be there, under the context of for our son, but still seperated. She illustrated the difference between her mindset and my mindset from our families experiences. I said nothing and just acknowledged and validated. She also keeps verbally romanticizing and forecasting in her mind how much of an emotional mess she is going to be the day our house is sold, and we go our separate ways. I asked her why? She said because its saying goodbye to all our hopes, dreams, and start of our family. So I just listened.
Other than important occasions involving S1 I don't know how I feel about this with her foreshadowing those expectations with family events in future. I love her family members, and wouldn't mind hanging out with them without my W at all. They are great people. But from my perspective. How is anyone suppose to heal if they are constantly going to family occasions along with their WAW or STBXW just like they were before as if they were married?
I wouldn't mind attending important functions on occsision. But my mentality is what is the point of even seperating then?
So sorry for the long familial history, but what I am trying to figure out is. Was she telling me all this and being nice because of her sincere appreciation, because she is emotionally opening herself up again? Or is it because of her family's experience with these kinds of circumstsnces. Or is it because, she hasn't fully let go, and would still like to keep me around at an arms length distance after seperation?
I obviously haven't cracked the fog, but I wonder if she was temp checking, and if I am just starting to detach, maybe she sensed I'm leaning into her life plans, and wanted to see if I would respond favorably to her? Sorry but I'm not Plan B nor will I ever be. Ill be there for the kid.. But that's it. But I didn't tell her that. I just listened. She's trying to paste her reality on top of mine.
I don't like the idea of playing family as if our M was still intact. I either want the M or not at all. Im not going to be her Gay BFF ex husband pursuing her post physical seperation if she gets the itch to hang out for some reason. She is my W to me still until those D papers are signed.
Not because the rings are off, not because she says ILYBNILWYA, not because of feelings that can be mislead, not because we are selling the house and dividing everything. Granted I don't trust her anymore for all these reasons. Sometimes I even ask myself why do I still want to make this work even though these sacred trusts have been breached?
So what do you guys think? Is she having second thoughts? Going off WAW script? Or is it familial conditioning and experience? Or is it parental cake eating? She is an unintentional cake eater.
It's most likely just delusional thinking. It is not uncommon for WWs to think that they can still do things together as a family. I would just make it clear that this is not going to happen anytime soon. You need to move on and heal. Maybe years down the road when the D is an after thought you can be included in family get togethers gut not right now.
I agree LH19. That is my perspective. We are not D, just seperating for now. But D is not off the table. I told the W today that, I need time and space to heal. I will be involved in major family activities, but not all the minor ones involving son. She understood, but left the future invitations open anyway. I told her I would need some time to think about that.
MIL took pictures of 3 of us at her bday. Me feeding my S1, etc. You could clearly see it on my face, in the pictures, with compaorson to previous pictures even though I was trying to be pleasant and happy. Again im fine around her family alone. Its just when she is there with her family. I notice my state changing.
Easter egg hunt party for kids this weekend at WAW'S friends house, which I was reminded of by W. It is my weekend to watch S1. I think it would be nice to be there for S1, watch him run around and interact with other kids, take pictures. Etc... However. I still don't want to placate to W's social schedule, or mingle with her family and friends at the moment in time. Don't get me wrong. I through my enjoy all there company. Its just that I should be creating some distance between W's friends and family. I still don't feel like playing happy family with W's delusion.
On another note. Has anyone here ever heard of the term "how to gray rock a narcissist" It seems to fit into the WAW'S script of being emotionally unavailable and business like, thus ignoring all interaction with ex/former spouse/LBS. I find that it is mostly written from a woman's perspective from what I have read on it.
Another interesting search article I have found on google is called "The Divorce Machine" very balanced perspective and perception from both sexes and sides of a S/D. how both sides are easily influenced and perpetuated into the process.
Yesterday I was angry again driving home about all of the lifestyle changes I am going to have to endure.
Reflecting now on when I went to bed last night. Was playing sleeping meditation music. Relaxing, slightly melancholic. Had a dream about a half hour in. I found W on couch with lights out. ( Lights are always out when I'm lucid dreaming.) We were distant from each other as present circumstance. I could still hear the music from my meditation which influenced my dream. I asked her if she was ok in the dream. She got up, started crying, hugged me, and kissed me. Then I started searching through the house to protect her and my son as if there were a intruder in it I could not see. (This is also a common theme in most of my dreams for past several years.) I woke up starting to sob for a tiny second then I stopped and came to reality which I knew I was fine. I then looked up "letting go of ex/relationship meditation" on you tube and went back to sleep. My W has stated numerous times of incompatibility issue in prior talks. Today I reflected on all of our incompatibility issue that have grown us apart over the last few years. Then a different feeling hit me just now. I actually feel like I just want to be her friend. To lean into the whole experience, but still CMOA as far as legal, and financial. I'm not fully detached. But a question hit my mind today. Why am I wasting all my energy for the last 6 months trying to figure all this stuff out, as I I could manipulate her or the situation? Even learning DB is from a LBS perspective. Now I understand what she felt, when things went platonic, and the love went away. I guess it just took me 6 months to stop cycling and resisting the acceptance of it from how I remembered her before BD. Is this what "dropping the rope" feels like? Acceptance? Just starting to have a realization of how women, especially WAW'S live in the present, and how much some men LBS can be stuck in the past with feelings of history of who they thought they knew. Takes em a while to catch up.
Guys what are the DB principles in bullet points? I haven't picked up DR or DB in over 6 months, and tried to just cherry pick principles out of the books just recently without clear indications of what the principles are. I'm going to have a hard time deciphering them. Nothing has changed in over 6 months. If anything going NC or minimal contact has gotten me nothing more than ignored, and nothing but silence, and being ignored. I know everyone here says balance, but balance of doing what exactly?
The only thing that I've changed on my part is that I stopped complaining, I've tried to take on more responsibility, being more thoughtful, I've validated a little bit, I've tried to remain positive in all interactions and to try and remain engaging and present, but it's like I've been "gray rocked" by W if anyone is familiar with the term. Basically I'm talking to a wall. I could probably get more of a response from a head of cabbage. I really don't see how NC can benefit anyone, unless they are in a WW sich. I barely have time to GAL still, but do where it doesn't affect my responsibilities.
I still feel the need to do something more positive and attractive in my interactions. Time, presence, balance, and giving space is not currently working in my favor. PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME!!! THE SILENCE IS KILLING ME!!! I want to change at least this Dynamic and I need to know what to do.
Now I understand what she felt, when things went platonic, and the love went away. I guess it just took me 6 months to stop cycling and resisting the acceptance of it from how I remembered her before BD. Is this what "dropping the rope" feels like? Acceptance? Just starting to have a realization of how women, especially WAW'S live in the present, and how much some men LBS can be stuck in the past with feelings of history of who they thought they knew. Takes em a while to catch up.
Yes, acceptance is definitely the key word. It doesn't mean you'll never feel sadness or melancholy at what once was, but it does mean it won't wreck your day when you remember "the good ol' days". You'll come to accept that whatever you had before really is gone and will never come back, and you'll accept that it probably happened for reasons beyond your control and that you have to move on and let her move on. And most importantly- you are OK with that. Not great with it, not ecstatic, just OK. You accept it.
For me at some point I realized that my marriage was destined to change substantially anyway. What I loved about my old life wasn't specifically my W (although I did love her), but was the whole package. Being a dad, going to school events, being relied on by my kids and W, being an important part of their lives as they were in mine, being "intertwined" with W, the kids, my in-laws, our extended family. It really was wonderful. BUT IT WAS DESTINED TO CHANGE NO MATTER WHAT. 2 of my 3 kids have grown up, graduated college, moved out, taken on jobs. And the 3rd is 16 now and very independent. Much of our extended family on both sides has passed away. I cried when I sent my D's off to college. Cried like a baby. Cried because I missed putting them to bed at night and talking about when Santa would come and holding them when they got scared and coming home from work to ask how their day was and staying with them when they were sick. I miss that so much, and I will until the day I die. Heck I can't even type it without getting teary-eyed. I still have a wonderful relationship with my kids but it's very different than it was back then. The same could be said about my XW, we have a great relationship but it's not the same as it used to be. I'm no longer a father to little kids or husband to a young woman. And even had we stayed married I still wouldn't be that.
Life is constantly changing and evolving and we don't control it. We roll with it and make the best of it, because it's all we can do.
Guys what are the DB principles in bullet points? I haven't picked up DR or DB in over 6 months
Pick it up and read it again. There isn't a cliff notes version. I used to read it once a month and still read it every few months. It's a living document, you'll find different meaning in it every time you read it.
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I still feel the need to do something more positive and attractive in my interactions. Time, presence, balance, and giving space is not currently working in my favor. PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME!!! THE SILENCE IS KILLING ME!!! I want to change at least this Dynamic and I need to know what to do.
This is really ironic considering you were just talking about how you've found acceptance. This isn't acceptance, is it?
Yeah I guess my acceptance of current W is fluctuating still, along with everything else. I've accepted the seperation. Have no choice, that's inevitable. Its not interacting on a more personal level and talking to the "emotional gray rock" W that's killing me. Guess I just need more time to balance out my intentions and emotions. Trying to be more present and less in my head on past guilt and future consequence is helping.
Thanks AnotherStander for displaying your life experiences, perspective of an older, wiser family man who went through this experience. I know what you mean by the whole package of marriage, and extended family, and the thought of limiting, or dissolving such.
Small but insignificant update today. In the last 6 months there been times where W don't talk or text at all. If I go dark and NC, she goes dark and NC on text, convo, and phone, etc, unless it's something important on her side, or unless it's something I initiate, whether it be for practical reasons, or just for plain fun. I have been giving her space, and haven't been pursuing. Not initiating R talks, and just listening if she does. I know this is a ridiculous he said/she said, play by play illustration on here, I just thought I would just clue everyone into the current dynamics of things as far as interaction.
I know better not to have expectations, and give my best, most pleasant, fearless self, without expectation, or covert contract, but also prepare for worst. But this friend zone brotherly love type of attitude is just pissing me off. Its like I have to make all the effort, and get nothing in return other than the platonic "thanks." it's like now I'm doing all the initiating and giving, in convo, activities and gestures now, and she's just accepting and going along with it. I wonder if this is how she felt during the R, since she is, or was to me at times, such a thoughtful, considerate, and giving person. Maybe that's why the WW/WAW goes totally selfish in their fog, because they feel underappreciated? Just a thought...
I was thinking to myself and mention this to W. Since her aunt gave me a free car recently, especially when I needed it, and MIL has been watching S1 for the last year-and-a-half, and is getting a little runned down, I asked her on her opinion on something they they might want, need, or like, since my W is really good at reading people on what they can use or would want as far as a thoughtful gift or thank you, and expressed such to her.
I offered for all of us to go for a walk after work through text the other day, since it was such a beautiful day. She said she would love to, and hoped I was enjoying the sun and warm weather that day since I work outside. Also by coincidence, it was national walk day. Unfortunately, we both had to renege that day because she had a migraine and I was getting home late because of traffic.
Still being asked if I want to attend Easter Egg hunt Sat. I replied "I havent made a decision on that yet." She was asking me what I think she should do, since her dilemma was the Easter egg hunt starts at a time we usually put S1 down for nap, she didn't want to interrupt his nap schedule. I told her, that she should make the decision herself, since she is the one with the dilemma over, after I suggested that he just nap in the car ride. It's my turn and time with S1 this weekend.
W had migraine last 2 days. Tried to be helpful by giving her water, and taking S1 to park to give her a little down time. Offered to pick up chocolate on way home the other day, she wanted chocolate ice cream, but checked freezer, and already had some. So I got a "NM we have already" out of that one. She still did dishes with migraine the night before, which impressed me. I cleaned S1 bottles in morning. Got a bland brotherly love response of "thanks for that" Noticed she was using the word "dude" a lot yesterday. So I busted her stones a little on it being the word of the day later on in person. She usually talks to her brother's that way, in that tone. I try to initiate texts like "hope you feel better today" I get "thank you's for washing S1 bottles" Advised her to drink more water and have a good day in text. Got a "Dude I have been, but thanks you too." Since she is Protestant and I am Catholic I Busted her chops, and told her "She should try drinking some holy water but she would probably burst into flames." "she replied that the holy water would burst into flames" I replied. " Only if you're Prodestant LOL"
Offered to pick up dinner yesterday since I wanted Pizza and hot wings. Another "thanks a lot" in friend zone type fashion. Interestingly enough when I got home, she was watching Couples Retreat, and we were both commentating and laughing at the funny parts that we remembered from seeing it several times before. I think we actually own the movie. Speaking of movies she boxed up all of her old movies last week, and put mine aside. Took a shower with S1. Had a convo about replenishing coconut milk right away for S1 even though we have plenty of regular milk. Everything with her parenting style now is over protective of S1, smothered with attention, and constant ILY's to S1 and everything with him has to be her way, which I don't, and won't always agree with. I just validate, and make it known that I understand she has her regiment with him, but mine or hers isn't always right or wrong, just different thinking, same regiment, with flexibility on my part. She wants to keep S1 on his regiment as far as giving him coconut milk. But I also typically say "He is not going to die if S1 drinks regular milk for one day." He's not lactose intolerant or has allergies. Just a matter of her preference which is fine IMO, I just allow a little more flexibility. Everything she says tries to undermine my parental abilities I just let it roll off my shoulders now without getting reactive, and I point out to her every time, that he is well considered for and cared for by me.
Went to bed and said goodnight. Will go grocery shopping tonight. (Grocery shopping another resentment of hers from past until IHS 4 months ago.) Now we split all responsibilities. When grocery shopping thing came up, amongst the other stupid resentment gripes, I stated I have been grocery shopping with you plenty of times before, and also I asked. Why didn't you ask me to come along every time after all these years, instead of building up resentment and assuming the role yourself, and being bitter about it? I can't mind read. Her typical response, or excuse to these types of things are that I have said in the past on certain divisions of labor, that I stated "That's not my job" since I took care of all the house repairs, cleaning of most of it ( in my mind, but not hers) and the yard. She's right there though. I have said that in the past. Division of labor has always been our issue even when we've gone to individual counseling for it together. But it still doesn't hurt to ask, I'm sure most H would be more accomdating to help if asked the right way. That's what most of these WAW'S don't understand. they expect us to read minds and just get it without being spoken to, and then they harbor up resentments and disappointments over the years, instead of specifically stating what they need. There are some things that you shouldn't have to ask, that a H should just do, but you don't go about addressing the problem by keeping it to yourself for years or nagging people about it.
Today in text I mentioned I was thinking about going to the drive-in this weekend, she said "that's funny she was thinking about the same thing last weekend." So she's on board with going.
I'm sure there are a lot of WAW'S that harbor resentment, give and give and give to the R, and feel like they don't get anything in return sometimes, because sometimes us men are sidetracked by life, or we are clueless. Or there isn't a balance of equal given take. But ladies you need to state such to your men, and instead of just nagging them about it, state to them specifically how it's affecting your relationship before its too little too late. I promise you they will definitely consider otherwise and make a change if presented properly.
I'm sure a lot of the LBS on here will at sometime get to that point where they realize that now the tides are turned, and our WAS' are now taking a lot more, acting a lot more selfish in convo, in thoughtfulness, in giving, etc. And they will eventually have to make a decision about whether what they're doing is serving them in return.
Now I seem to be the one who's trying to make good on all of my wrongs, do good and thoughtful things for the sake of being a better person, and try to be giving without expectations or reciprocation, or creating covert contracts, or being selfish and needy. Am I frustrated that I'm doing all the initiation now and getting little for it, or just breadcrumbs? You betcha. But I'm not pursuing a relationship (at least to their knowledge) and I'm just trying to live in the moment day by day hour by hour, be present, and see if it improves things.
Women and Men alike really need to learn the difference between conditional love and unconditional love, romantic love and whatnot Agape Love, etc. I read a journal entry of my wife's that was a year just after she broke up with her ex-boyfriend 13 years ago. About how she wanted love with no bounds or limits, and just wanted to be seen, heard, loved and understood. She's the one that went back and forth months, if not a year between whether she did the right thing, had a few crushes and dates during that time, according to her journal entries about how he should have did this and he needed to do that, get his life together, respond a certain way, do 180s on certain things, be more considerate, etc. she went back and forth between missing him and then staying strong and rejecting him. It gave me a lot of insight not only what went through her mind as well as most women's im sure. Well here we are 13 years later, and the husband (me) and family who she is separating from is under the same predicament. I wish most women would wise up, step away from the romatic fantasies, media, tv shows, and Disney movies, of how things should be, and realise they are flawed human beings, as well as our dealing with with flawed human beings that need forgiveness. Stop setting themselves up for disappointments, ditch some but not all of the expectations, be, think, and act in a Godly manner, accept themselves for who they are, faults and all, as well as their husbands, and vice versa. When they score keep, build up resentments, and disappointments, it hardened their hearts and the walls go up. Stop man bashing, and start loving from your heart, and not your ego. I'm sure a lot of the women on here seem to want to chase all these things in a man, especially unconditional love, but they never take the initiative, or do the work or make the changes, until they are seperated from the last person, looking for it in the next. THE TIME IS NOW! Not the slights, or offenses, or guilt from yesterday, or the uncertainty and fear or even promises of the future. The time is now to make a change.
Keep loving them even when they don't love you back, even if it means from a distance if necessary. But don't ever stop, because it can harden you.
I agree with you , the problem is we have been doing the wah for years and then expect them to instantly say I see you have changed, well done let’s go full on R
Steve85. Q.Q. i read in someone's post/sich that you believe 99% of WAW'S go WW. What is this based off of? All the sich's you've read on here over the years? How can you tell?
I have a bunch mine is about to turn. I don't have evidence since "Crush celebrity EA" back in Jan, but I see behavior starting to change more with smartphone, depression, ignoring, and isolation from W.
So? Who here had seen the movie Unfaithful?. Think I will "borrow it" from the W's video collection she boxed up, and watch it right in front of her this weekend. See what kind of reaction I get?...lol We both like Diane Lane and Richard Gere movies. At this point. Im happy no matter what. No matter which way this goes, or how artificially happy or depressed W gets. IDG2F's
Being present and mindful this last week, day by day, minute by minute so far has really put the goofiness and smiles back on my face, and taken my mind and worry off the past, and future outcomes. I highly suggest everyone try it. I was all shitz and giggles today for no reason at all maybe other than being Friday. Now I can see the stress on the W's face, and I almost feel sorry for her, but almost want to laugh and smile at it at the same time as needed messed up and arrogant as that sounds. She's flip flopping again about quitting her job at end of school year. Lol She hasn't changed, she just thinks she's changing. They think they know what they're doing, making these big life decisions, with their emotion. Its almost comical.
I really didn't mean sound heartless in my last post, just after months of asking if she's ok, validating, etc. Now that I come home present, happy for no reason, and upbeat, now I noticed she's depressed by facial expressions. Since I decided to watch a movie in the living room for a blue moon change on a Friday night, she had no fantasy escape other than her mind, our S1, and her phone, which i noticed she abruptly put down while texting after getting up and walking by her this evening. Even after I was done early in the evening i handed her the remote. She just shut off the TV and retreated to her room and her phone. I know im being presumptuous, but she's probably wondering why I'm so happy all of a sudden, and she's so unhappy and indecisive again.
Your question to Steve. Most WAW go WW because just like the LBS they fear the future (though they won't admit it) and it's easier to transition if they have someone waiting in the wings. The saying is a monkey won't let go of a branch until he has another branch in hand.
You still have way too many expectations and you doubt the process. Very few turn around right away. True recon takes years. Your W has made up her mind and most likely won't look back for a really long time.
I am really concerned about your attitude towards women I hope you are working on it in IC. Like it or not most WWs have valid points. Learn from your mistakes and make sure these mistakes never happen again.
Steve85. I had a thought this morning as soon as I woke up that's kind of bugging me. Come to think of it, this thought has been all throughout our marriage. Since you were the one that brought up covert contracts, maybe you can help me answer a question or two? It's about giving without expectation inside of a marriage.
One of the many reasons why I married my W almost 10 years ago, is because she was such a thoughtful and kind giver in a very understanding an intimate sense. She is like this with everyone, but when we were first dating even more so with me. I have been horrible with this all as of recently. But not intentionally. When I was younger before my wife my earlier 20s, and previous relationships I had more time, and more money and resources to think about thoyghtful gestures, and about these things and execute them. As I've gotten older, and more preoccupied, and more self-centered, I let my thoughtfulness and gift-giving fall by the wayside.
What I am trying to ask is. Is there a way to test someone if they are giving unconditionally, or are harboring resentments because you didn't give back the way our spouses expected us to?
I've realized how in some ways I have disappointed my W over the years in this area. I definitely have to work on being more thoughtful and considerate, but when I do get something whether it be my time my energy or just a gift. I do it without absolutely any expectations in return.
I cannot help but feel that she harbors resentments and disappontments not only to me, but other people, and family members as well, if she is not met with the same conditional consideration over time. Not only with gift giving, but people attending certain family occasions and missing them, without getting factual info on why they couldn't attend. For example she took it very personal when some of her family members couldn't attend our son's first birthday. Here is another recent example. She doesn't like my older brother, but my older brother was available to watch my S1 all week, when my MIL couldn't. Out of appreciation she went out and got him a gift card on a Sodastream. My brother loved the gift but he also recognized that she was just simply returning a favor, rather than giving unconditionally. She wouldn't have ever gone out of her way to get him a gift for anything, even for Christmas, and we both know this.
I think she feels she has given a lot of herself away over the years, and has been a people pleaser, who always does the right thing, but she doesn't seem to respect, or take an interest as to why other people act the way they do, or miss certain occasions, etc. I think she's going through a selfish phase now.
I guess you could call this conditional vs. unconditional love in a sense.
Just so I know for certained, and with clarity, who I am dealing with now. Can you think of any good examples on how to test this, or them? Conditional vs. Unconditional.
I'm hoping one day she realizes this. I cannot point it out to her, and like herself, I cannot wait around for her forever, hoping that she "will just get it" someday, like they expect of us. Keep in mind I have no expectations at this point, I'm just looking for some ideas on how to bench test this. If it doesn't work for me here I'm sure it'll work for me somewhere else in another relationship where I can get a good gauge on who I am dealing with.
LH19 yes I am familiar with the monkey branching effect. Or as I call it. The grasping of one hand before leaving another effect. Its not that I don't trust the process,...hmm... Ok maybe I do a little bit because I may not be applying somethings correctly, or inconsistently. In all truth I don't see too many recon success stories here or however, but the ones that have been, keep me hopefully.
Im not actually expecting recon for a few years, if at all. I don't have to have any certainty with that.I just want to live hour by hour day by day. I'm doing my best to remain unattached to her responses. Its the being ignored consistently part that WAS getting to me. It's not bothering me as much now, since I'm starting to get a sense of reclaiming myself and my self-worth.
Forgive me for my jadedness torwards women at times, it comes and goes with my moods. Sometimes I get a little arrogant myself, and I still have to catch myself. Im only human. I am sure all WW and WAS, have very valid points, and I do want to learn from them, and typically do when I am centered, humbled, and calm. The answers just come to me lately being more present actually. Ill try to maintain my humility more.Thanks
So there are a few things I need to reflect on here today looking for patterns or answers. I know there are a lot of different answers for a lot of different reasons, experiences, etc, on here.
Although I know the answer because of the wonderful insight on here from its members. I would still like to explore it more however.
Why is it that the mindset of the WAW after initiating BD, or months after, some look at the LBH as a "good friend" that has enriched their lives for however long we were married to them? (Possibly attraction?) But still want to separate. Why is it that when they feel the need to go independent of M if they are not WW, pursue new growth, new lifestyles, new hobbies, social activities, health habits, places to live, new careers, etc.. I get that. I understand individuals need growth in an R, or separate from R. People need to groth together if they are together.
What bewilders me is how they initiative torwards that change, but lack follow through. Its like they are in such a hurry to sell M home, (or claim it in buy out) get independant, and move forward with their lives, put in all that work to live independently to reclaim their so called happiness, sence of self, and purpose in life, etc. All that work and effort being put into to separation, imagine what could be accomplished if they worked that hard, not only on themselves, but the M or the relationship, that they claimed they were working so hard on for years, but by themselves, that hardly ever got brought to the LBH's attention. The WAW just sat around, did their own thing, took no accountability of themselves and what they were doing for the R, and expected their LBH to live up to their expectations, that the WAW couldn't even fulfil in themselves? I know men and women's perceptions can be vastly different.
But then they still lack follow through on that change in the present. (No backup career lined up, but aspirations No place to live, but plans for such, will live out of vacation home of MIL, or friends basement if necessary, wants to quit job and rely on income of sale of M home to supplement income for year, and stay home with S1, and work from home.) Sorry but im not ready to make that decision yet without exploring my own buyout options, attorney, possibilities, etc. And made myself politely clear on that, whether it works with W's timeline or not. I'm not holding her hostage, but I'm not going to be pressured either.
Another thing. Why is it that they have no problem having no accountability to LBH of their social lives somewhat a secret (no affairs as of date), but still want LBH involved in most family and social affairs with their friends? (Cake eating) Is it because of co parenting and remaining amicable? And she also has no problem hanging out with me and S1 if invited. We have a good time when we are out with S1.
She still wants to remain in touch with my mom and family as well, but is asking me if I'm ok with it. I just respond, "You are and individual and so is my mom. I think my mom would like that and its totally up to you."
It just amazes me how grounded they think they are in reality in fulfilling their grand master plan torwards Independence and freedom. Don't get me wrong, i hope my W does get to fulfil her ambitions on her journey after we separate, i wish her well. But I still think reality is going to smack her hard in the face, when she finally gets there, and isn't going to be as cracked up as she thinks its going to be once she does, she says she has mentally prepared herself for it, I think she is only scratching the surface.
In my opinion as pretty much everyone says on here. I am most likely her plan b in case she fails at whatever she wants to do with her life. I'll be her friend, but once that ship has sailed, it has sailed for me. I won't be plan b. I almost wish I could fast forward into a new independent life myself. New apartment. New lifestyle, etc, without having to go through all the pain and turmoil, and breeches of trust from selling the M home. That's a big one for me. I have decided I can never trust her again as far as living with her because of such, which is pushing me torwards initiating D, but im not ready to make that decision today.
Guys I'm done. I'm sorry. I've told myself I shouldn't make this decision based off emotions and I don't have to make this decision today. But im done. As much sense as this may not make to some people, I cannot get past not being able to trust the W ever again as far as living with her again, and selling the house which I am under enormous pressure, which I am not ready to do, especially on her timeline.
Every thing else I am open to, but I don't think my W could ever earn my trust back as far as living together again if I sell this house, although the house is meaningless. Feeling that I'm being forced to make a financial and living decision that I don't want to make breeches my trust as man, and it's permenant.
I can be friends, I can be friendly, we can work together to get done what we need to get done, I just can't get past the trust issues that have been breached about living together again in the future. Even if we both made major changes. I still would never be able to trust living with her in future. If all this effort has to be made torwards separating, and not torwards reconciling, then im done, I'm not going to waste my years sitting in limbo land approaching 40 yrs old. I have no patience left to hold on anymore. I won't be plan b, and I won't be able to ever trust living W my wife ever again. I've made my declaration as of tonight. We are both on board as far as the D. We still have to figure out housing and whatnot over the summer. How and who is going to pay for things. Im going to start shopping for mediators this week.
I'm out for a while and will let everyone know any major updates as time goes by. Thank you for all your help and wonderful insight.
When trust is broken it takes a long time to build back , it doesn’t seem like she is in a place to meet you in the middle . Stay strong and do the right thing for you .
If I can offer what I found out recently from my WAW as a reason of the BD, something that I dont see mentioned anywhere in Michele's book DR (possibly in her other books) is what they tought of the sex.
Mine flat out told me that it wasnt that good. Ouch. I know. OK we have a son and she had orgasms even if not always. But the frequency of sex and lack of foreplay or seduction kills it.
I know I had no response to that. I told her she was right. I verified that we had good times at some point but there were long rough patches where we couldnt meet in climax.
I owned it. I was unemployed for a long time with my sex drive down.
How was your sex life with her?
B.D in December 2018 Physical Affairs discovered in April 2019 Divorced May 2019 H (me) 49 W (her) 29
IHCLACS btw I dont condone her actions of course, as you and I have said in the past.
They are still immature, and they need to own that. Not communicating, pouting, holding grudges etc. I gave her her list as well. I hope she works on it but I doubt it.
B.D in December 2018 Physical Affairs discovered in April 2019 Divorced May 2019 H (me) 49 W (her) 29
gzabetas. In my opinion and as some people have stated here, it's emotional immaturity. If you were really to look at all areas of someone's life everyone has emotional immaturity even myself.
Okay so I know I said I wouldn't be back for a while. I know I'm going to going to get multiple 2x4's over the head for this deservingly.
After our fun night at the drive-in the other night, the next day W started pressuring me about getting the house on the market. I had to take a break from the conversation so I took S one to the park, while she researched buyout options or me,and refinancing for divorce. I didn't ask her to do this . So later that night, We were watching TV with S1. The show was called This Is Us. With Mandy Moore. It's a series where people have two or three flashbacks of different points in their life all revolving around kids struggles in life, marriage, space,,individual identity, etc there was this one scene we're a couple of 20 years was having difficulties balance in their lives of individuals with their professions and passions. Then the scene reverse back to where that couple decided to get engaged, and they promised each other that they wouldn't move their identities in themselves by merging together.
Shortly after that scene I asked my W. What do you plan on doing with your engagement ring? She stated she was going to save it for our S1. I asked well what if I want to sell it? She says you can't sell it it was a gift. So I let the conversation go at that. Now keep in mind I didn't actually say this but this is what I was thinking the whole time. Why in the world would you want to re-gift an engagement ring to our S1, that I gave to you and promised that you would stay married to me for life, only to pass along to him, as an example of a failed marriage? Isn't that kind of like Bad Karma?
Now I may have acted on this impulsively shortly after this incident, but just after we put S1 to bed, I told W that I'm going to file for divorce. That I'm willing to remain open in all other aspects, but I cannot get past the trust issues of me being forced to sell the home because of the choices she's making to separate. That one that ship finally sails. Even though I will I will be able to trust her in other areas, I won't ever be able to trust living with her again. She stated her areas in which she was unable to trust me. Such as some of my behaviors excetera, I stated to her that even though I've only been going to DBT training for 3 weeks there's been significant Improvement and she is seen it as far as managing my emotions. She thinks I'm bipolar which I'm not. I don't even have full malignant BPD, and explain to her that it is a spectrum just like other things. That I just have some characteristic traits in my thinking. I remind everybody that she is a behavior specialist was no longer confident in her abilities and wants to resign from her job by this summer. I explained to her that I'm a work in progress and I cannot change the past but I am sorry for it and I wish things were different. I also stated to her that I did not want to live in a Loveless marriage, she said it's not that there isn't love there, it's just taking on a more friendly form. I agreed. I stated it to her that I've been trying to find ways to meet her halfway and try to work on things for the last six months despite her unwillingness to, and how she wants to go out and alone individually. That I am done trying. if we were in an apartment and were to just divide up everything during a separation I would have been fine with that. but because my timeline isn't meeting her timeline as far as selling the house and her achieving her goals to be out by the summer, I feel like my hand is being forced and I'm not ready to move that quickly, without wrapping up the projects and getting full value of the home. she actually wants to go to the extent where she's going to borrow more money from her parents to hire people if I don't correspond to her time line. I've tried to negotiate with Sarah that I will get the small things where I can and when I can because I work so much. and if that's what she feels she needs to do, then that's her decision, not mine. I get that she needs the income from the sale of the home to explore and live off of her new life that she wants to fulfill. we also discussed potentially looking at mediators. I may not decide to go that route and go pro se, as I'm fairly decent with legal stuff, although not my profession. But I'm sure consultation couldn't hurt
So again I reiterated that once that trust is broken and the house is sold I don't know if I could trust to ever live with her again so there's no point in keeping the separation open ended. I reiterated that even though I wasn't 100% sure that this is what I wanted, but is what will happen if my trust is breached by selling the home, I am fairly sure that this is what I wanted, if it comes down to selling the house. I also stated that if we were to sell the house and she was willing to work on things, that I may be a little more open in working on things which I'm sure she would never agree with as of this moment.
Yesterday I decided I want to divorce. I asked her for pertinent documents pertaining to such in text message yesterday morning. Marriage license mortgage statement excetera. At first she asked what for? And then she said she would get them for me what she did once I got home. I found out yesterday she stayed home from work again because she said she felt a lot of overwhelming anxiety that Sunday night into Monday morning, and she just couldn't go to work. She didn't stay why but I knew why But we still had amicable conversation and we're polite and friendly with one another. My printer actually broke on me to make copies so she said she would copy the documents at her job the following morning. We both reiterated to talk from Sunday night and had a polite an understanding conversation.
I'm at a conflict with myself. I know time heals trust, and I know it appears as if she is forcing my hand and now I'm forcing hers. It's almost a battle of wills of stubbornness. But I genuinely feel that if I have to sell this home on her timeline and I will never be able to live with her or trust her financially, or legally again. I do understand that she needs a time during the separation to not only pursue her dreams and her goals and find herself and some of her desires but also needs a time to heal through individual counseling and therapy. I told her that I don't want to put pressure on her with that, and I understand that, I want to have another talk about working through our trust issues, and how we can potentially resolve them about our discrepancies about living together at the bare minimum, with no talk of reconciliation. There are things that I understand about her POV.
Devised in my own mind. I do have a list of requirements as I would also ask her if she had a list of hers if she ever did want to reconcile, about what we both need to change and how we can work together to change it. She doesn't know this and I'm not putting much hope in it as of right now.
I'm really not trying to play a poker game here with a poker face, and force anyone's hand. She has trust issues with living with me and some of my behaviors which I'm working on. I have trust issues with her and some of her behaviors which I think she is working on. But we are not working on them for each other, but for ourselves. She is bending up all of her stuff and getting ready for a move in the next couple of months. I have just started.
Even though I've declared that I'm starting the divorce process, I still know in my own mind that I have the power to decide and the dissolution has not yet been filed. Maybe perhaps I don't have to make that decision today or tomorrow or even next month and I can take my time to find some clarity in it, but she doesn't know that. But I think that she's allowing me to do it to see if I'm going to follow through with my words with action since we're both flip-floppers. it seems like this is turning out to be a game of calling each other's Bluffs. Even though I know she's having second thoughts based on her anxiety after me announcing such I still think she'll allow me to follow through with the D if I decide to do so, and file and really pull the trigger after I gather all of the necessary documents. Again I know a lot of you are going to 2x4 me here for pushing the Big D. but I legitimately have these trust issues and I don't know if I can resolve them. I'm going to take them to counseling and see if anything comes out of it.
In my own mind I don't see the point in continuing a marriage with someone that is afraid to file for divorce out of their own fear of that they may be me making a mistake, rather than their own fear of they may be losing someone they care about. I really don't feel the need to wait around or have the patience for 2 or 3 years for her to get her life together, the way she wants to which is fine, but I just don't want to be strung along anymore, I've stated to her that I won't be her plan B but she doesn't see it that way. Which is also understandable.
So what do you guys think about the way I'm handling this, and thinking about it? Do you think that I'm starting to get to her with her recent anxiety incident, and she may fold under the pressure in the future as far as realizing that I'm serious, that she has two choices either to work on the M or I initiate divorce? because she has more patience than I do I think she's going to let me walk. I wish things could be different and I wish there was a middle ground we can meet each other in, not only to resolve the trust issues, but a willingness on her part and motivation to work on the marriage even while separated. That I can live with and work towards. Otherwise I don't see the point in continuing this and wasting both of our time.
Ok I read Sandi's article on pieceing which gave me a very full perspective of how two people can possibly get past trust issues, different POV, etc, how to address needs, and not assume how another person is feeling, taking the threat of D off the table, etc. Although i am headed in the opposite direction as of now. There is something else I would like to mention. The other night I mentioned to W. That being ignored, all the silence for the last 6 months, and my efforts to be positive, upbeat, and not complaining. I felt as though I was trying trying trying, going back and forth between giving space, and making friendly neutral gestures and that the silence was killing me. I felt that to me it was a form of mental abuse. Although I feel as though her perspective of past is exaggerated, she feels I have been emotionally abusive. Her POV of not having convo, was that it was just taking space, and declared we are Seperated in IHS. But she never has an issue with inviting me to social affairs, or us hanging out outside the home, going for walks, dinners, movies, drive in, etc. We are both sending mixed signals I think, and have way different POV, although somewhat discussed, not explored. But just validated.
I need to really broaden my thinking of the process from BD to R and not focus so much on everyone's newcomer sich, as maybe its just reinforcing my struggle of current such, and im only seeing the forest for the trees. Perhaps I need to broaden such whether I R or not. At this moment, I still can't get past trust of selling home however. I think need both M counciling and DBT counciling to really open up my mind. Sadly I will be losing my wife's mental health benefits over as a result of her quitting her job over the next couple of months and my benefits stink as far as mental health coverage, which I can't afford. Maybe I can work something out though? I'm probably going to have to drop counciling all together and figure this out on my own without any guidance other then DB and self determination.
I am really at a conflict with myself over our different trust issues, and different reasons.
It looks like you're acting impulsively because you're afraid. The fear is awful, isn't it? I think you need to cultivate patience and more patience and more patience. Doing that is as hard as dealing with the fear, I think.
If you're not 100% certain you want a D you should not be talking about it, certainly not out of a place of fear and impatience. Think ahead a few years and consider whether you will kick yourself for not waiting a little longer. Trust takes time to work on, it will take both of you but you have to be willing to consider that it's possible, and sometimes you will have to trust based on limited evidence. Don't say 'I can never trust again' because you don't know that, you're talking with your emotions there.
You are still in full on victim mode (I know, I still fall into it every few days I'd say, so I recognise it when I see it!) Talk to your W about the house sale, share your doubts with her because then at least you'll have made your position clear. Don't bully or threaten her into not selling. You are trying to control her out of fear, it won't work. It [censored] to feel like you have no power, I know. But you do have power here, don't misuse it by threatening D.
You really need to continue with counselling, some counsellors will reduce fees if there is financial hardship. But you clearly have a LOT to work on. Keep up with it, keep reading lots of books and listening to podcasts and watching videos on how to make yourself a better person. It's so so hard but you need to be the best person you can be, for yourself not just for your M.
Thank you Dillydaf from another W's perspective. Although I'm making copies of things to file, and have said that I will file. I know I am going to appear incongruant if I dont. But I will sit on it for now. You are right. I have lot of work to do, and little time put in and resources. I can see how what I'm doing could be a controlling issue. I just truly have no incentive to go any further with the M. Im really not threating D. I actually want to file because I have no incentive left. But I do need more patience and time to see if we can heal correctly as individuals first. I don't think R is possible at this time, based on current changes and past behaviors, and trust. But I do need to give it more time, so i have no regrets.
There is no hurry to D if she isn't pushing for it. I know you feel like you have to take action, and like this is the only action open to you. I absolutely get that (I think that's a human thing not a gender thing!) But sometimes NOT taking action can be braver than just waiting and sitting with that discomfort and those feelings of powerlessness and fear. The gender thing: don't file because you think you'll look weak or less of a man if you don't. Everyone is entitled to take their time and also to change their minds, men included. You shouldn't flip flop this way and that, that *will* look weak. But yes, give it your best shot. Sit on those impulses to do something and take action and reject her. If you do D, do it from a place of strength not impulsivity.
Marc, why were you fighting so much? Are one of both of you a "right fighter"? IE you'd rather be right than happy? Do you look back and see that the majority of the fights didn't even matter? That you could have given in, avoided a fight, and been better for it?
When my wife and I would fight (and we are both stonewallers, by the way, or were), it usually had to do with something bigger than the actual fight. I wasn't sexually fulfilled so I was over critical and nitpicking her. Since I was so surly and angry all the time she had a very low tolerance for me. Since I was nitpicking her the minute I didn't pick something up, or clean up after myself she'd make a big deal about it. The thing we were fighting about wasn't REALLY what we were fighting about.
So not fighting wasn't going to fix the problem. Only fixing the problem, underlying, would fix the problem.
Did you understand why you were fighting? Have you 180'd on anything that might help relieve it?
Finally, you seem to be at the point of giving up. Marc it takes two people, working together, to make a marriage. It only takes one person to make a divorce. Either one person wants a D and pursues it. Or one person gives up and eventually the other one gives up and pursues D.
So you need to answer that for yourself. Are you at the point where you are done trying? If so, then go file and see it through. My guess is that if that were the case, you would have done that. Which makes me think, that the reason you are posting here, is because you aren't there yet.
Look, this is the hardest thing any of us has had to go through (unless someone fought a deadly disease). Patience, longsuffering, perseverance are all attributes you absolutely MUST possess if you have any chance of saving your marriage. LBSs always gets frustrated with WAS's lack of "knowing". "Do you want a D?" "I don't know." "How long should we keep trying?" "I don't know." Rarely will you get a straight answer. And for some LBS's that is worse than being given the bad news.
Here is the thing Marc, I too came here.....after 6 weeks of limbo, asking "when is enough, enough?" And a very wise vet gave me this nugget: limbo is the gift of time. It allows you to work on your 180s, and demonstrate them to your S. It allows you to work on GAL and show that to your S. It allows you to work on detachment and self-differentiation and to become a spouse only a fool would leave! Would ripping off the bandaid make healing quicker? Yes. But it might not heal the way you want it to.
So relax. Take it easy. Breathe. Let things work themselves out. Your W isn't running full long into separation and D. Many of the posters here would kill to have that dynamic going on in their sitch.
One thing that we don't talk enough about here is that these sitches require you to grow up and mature. Being grown up and having maturity mean not having to have what you think you want the minute you want it. Being a grown up and being mature mean you realize that good things come to those that wait. That anything worthwhile isn't acquired overnight. That putting the cart before the horse rarely gets you to where you want to go.
So slow down and coast for a while. Stop thinking you have to be doing SOMETHING. Many times the best thing you can do in these things is nothing but wait.
Sorry you are here, but I am glad you found this place in your sitch. We can help. We can offer support.
Steve85. I was about to pull the trigger on initiating the D this week. Told the W, copied the paperwork, etc.. You are right about being emotionally mature, and having patience. I need to reevaluate. Thanks for this message.
IH, so in summary you're demanding a divorce because you feel like selling the house sooner rather than later is a deal-killer? I don't really understand that. Why is a physical object driving you to end the marriage to the person you love? Personally I think you are doing this for different reasons, like so many before you, you are hoping that waving the D flag will wake her up and snap her out of her fog. It WILL NOT, you are simply giving her what she already wants, and YOU are doing all the work for her! You're also giving her the perfect "out" for her friends and family, she can now simply tell them that YOU are the one that pursued D. Is this really what you want?
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Devised in my own mind. I do have a list of requirements as I would also ask her if she had a list of hers if she ever did want to reconcile, about what we both need to change and how we can work together to change it. She doesn't know this and I'm not putting much hope in it as of right now.
So you just threatened her with divorce and now you want to negotiate the terms of recon? Seems like you are kind of all over the place. Just pull back, take a deep breath and center yourself. Leave your W alone and think long and hard about what you want. Maybe in the end you decide you do want to pursue D but your mind needs to be in the right place to make that decision and I don't think it is right now.
AS is right, it will not snap her out of it. I tried a couple of things like that in my situation and guess what it backfired. 2. Things to remember, if you truly do not want d then don’t do it. You will regret it later. Second, like AS said she will tell everyone including you that you want the d and she never initiated it. I know it’s hard, just be patient she is hurting too. My w said something to me the other day and reading your situation it sounds very similar. She said that she has been “suffering” for 2 years and I only have been “suffering” for 8 months. So, whether it’s consciously or subconsciously sometimes they feel we need to suffer like they did. Again, not saying she is doing this on purpose but they feel the “suffering” has not been equal.
M:42 XW:41 T:19 M: 15 D:13 S:10 BD: 8/10/18 Moved out: 8/18 Moved in: 9/18/18 Moved out: 4/22/19 D papers signed 11/4/19 D final 3/18/20
I am 95% sure I want to D. I discussed incident with IC, and we both agreed I should be making decision from strength and not fear. I will hold back on filing. I'm not waiting around though for 2 or 3 years for her to figure it out, or her life and what she wants to do with it separated... I thought about my trust issues and deal breakers, and even though I'm adamant about it being my line in the sand, it didn't make sence even to myself logically after I really thought it through from all broad angles and possibilities.
Ive been daydreaming today of GAL activities. Im going to ramp it up. I have asked W for documents. She is still under the impression I am filing. I'm going to sit on it for now. Ironically we are getting along a lot better, talking more, and she is initiating convo. I think she is temp checking me. I wasn't implying terms of recon AS, I just wanted to make a list just in case for future, addressing living conditions, and trust issues. I wasn't planning on presenting them to her. WM i know they have been hurting far longer than we have, and we ate just getting a taste. I've had the same discussion with W before, and I try to be aware of that. Maybe THEY need to communicate that better, instead of just ruminating on it for years and BD ing us, and listing everything they think has been wrong with the M. But we are just supposed to "get it"
As far as friends and family I love them to death, and even look forward with hanging with them in future, but I really don't care what people think of me. Ill welcome their thoughts and opinions and considerations openly, but other people's oppinion of me is none of my business including my WAW. I've always been a "lone wolf" in that sense.
IH, nice to hear that you are reconsidering. Remember that you can always file later. There is no rush on this. Make sure you what you really want. Any reasonable doubt and you should wait.
Patience..............
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Okay I need to ask a quick question regarding healthy boundaries, responses an deattachment, even though Steve 85 has pointed me in the direction of self differentiation early on in my sich which is great.
I know this is my own POV, but I can use some feedback in responding to such. Everyday when I come home the W still ask me How was my day, and vice versa. I typically respond with short direct answers from whether it was good or not and why. Typically I remain upbeat and positive regardless of whether it was good or bad.
I was considering in creating a polite respectful boundary on this and asking the W not to ask this any longer. I know she is just being polite and would ask this of any typical family member or friend.
The reason why I would like to cease her asking me this every day, because it maintains the marital dynamic to me from my POV.
Very early on in my stitch, my W complained that we never talk about anything or have nothing to talk about anymore, and that our convos turned into superficial, "How was your day...good..How was your day..good" conversations. But yet she still continues this dynamic to this day, along with once in a while asking me for life advice, or making speculative suggestions with what I should do with my life, hobbies, etc. I thank her for her compliments and suggestions, but I'm trying not to continue the marital dynamics since she "fired me as her husband" She avoids any other emotional discussions. But will bring some personal things up on occaisionally which kind of blurs the lines from me. I think she still does some of these things out of past habit. She calls me babe on then corrects herself, which has happened at least 8 times since BD.
I actually asked her yesterday. Just out of pure curiosity? How important is it to you? She said that knowing how my day was is important to her and that she does care. I acknowledge that and thanked her. Although I know it's in a platonic sense and she is just being polite
I almost wanted to ask her? Are you going to ask me that every time we exchange S1 in the future? Or do you just plan to say hi?
I know this sounds really petty and stupid of me, but I feel like if I allow her to continue asking me such, it blurs the lines and continues parts of the marital dynamic in a sense, along with her asking me for advice in her life, making suggestions what I should do with mine in my hobbies, etc... I know she's just trying to be caring and helpful, and means well. But I'm looking to politefully and respectfully address the blurring of the lines between M and S , by creating some emotional boundaries of my own for detachment.
Am I being a punitive jackass in creating sense of loss and emotional boundaries? Or do I have a valid point? How can i address this in a healthy but very subtle and balanced way?
My 180's are other than where her habits affect S1. I don't criticize anymore, I don't get as angry, frustrated, or scary. Sahara me raising my voice when I'm passionate about something or defensive, scares her. I've never full-blown yelled at her. I talk calmly and evenly now without trying to sound condescending to her. I've stopped trying to control things I know I can't control. I try to regulate my emotions better especially when frustrated. I spend more time with S1 and try to help alleviate her when she needs it. I am more thoughtful and considerate when it comes to her love language of gift-giving and actions. I try to remain more upbeat and sociable unless negative talk to myself and everyone around me, I empathize more. I try to remain more present, and listen better. I'm still having a hard time following through with my actions against my words as far as completing things. I haven't been taken as good care of myself as I should but have been trying. Because I still haven't quit smoking, I shower every night now instead of every morning before I go to bed. I go to sleep consistently now at the same time instead of falling asleep with my phone on the couch. Eventually I'll try and quit again. My working out hasn't been consistent. but I have been going for a lot of walks. More financially involved. I have a list of the notebook I'll mention some more later. There are probably some more important ones as far as actions that I need to implement consistently. But behavioral ones are definitely getting better
Trick question for people on here. What is more important? Intact family or Lone Independence and freedom?
I do not see them as opposing, unless I am not understanding what you mean by lone independence and freedom. In fact, I would argue that self-differentiation, and having a life as an individual are a key to a healthy marriage AND an intact family.
Did I misunderstand the question?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Well I guess I got my wish... She didn't ask me how my day was today...
Be careful what you wish for. Further, I would have advised you NOT to ask her to stop. Just remain detached in answering. "It was good, thanks for asking."
Something short and simple.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Nothing to jump for joy about, but its a start on the right direction. I decided to make myself a little vulnerable this morning after a text from the W regarding the house sale. Please review text and advise if I handled it ok, and any room for improvement or critique is welcome.
W: I contacted the realtor about seeing the house. Can you be available next Sunday to meet with her? Me: What time? W: I haven't set a time yet W: She is available this weekend but I want to clean first. Me:Ok. I really don't want to do this, but i guess im going to have to. Are you sure this is what you want? Are you sure we can't discuss our trust issues, and work things out? W: I thought you said to go ahead with the realtor? Me: Ok. I will make myself available Saturday afternoon and work on the yard, and probably patching the basement wall. Me: I did say go ahead with the realtor. Because I'm facing the inevitable realisticly. But its not what I want. I don't want to sell the house I have to. I don't want to go down this road with you, but because I have to. Me: Lets start with the realtor appointment. Couldn't hurt to get an assessment for now. We can discuss things tonight if you are willing? W: I'm not ready for a divorce, I've told you numerous times that I want to separate because I need space to work things out... you've insisted on jumping straight to a divorce Because you dont want to wait. If it's all or nothing and you're not willing to give me time, then you'll do what you have to. Either way, I need to be done with the mortgage so I can pay off debt and have the ability to work from home. W:If you want to stay in the house, but me out. But again... I need you to make a decision and stick with it. I need action and follow through, no more flip flopping. Me: Yeah i know you have been pretty consistent, and understand the financial and career transition for your health, well being, and happiness.
Its not about the house, its about broken trust. I'm willing. Although I am going to miss a lot of the freedoms, and not so much of the upkeep, its just a house. Its just a mortgage. I'm being forced to sell OUR HOME with no incentives from you torwards future other than "lets wait and see how this plays out" "I need time and space"
I get that too, and understand that and why. Im willing to blindly trust you and the process, this way we can both make a clear headed non emotional decision on what WE are and what WE are not going forward. But these trust issues need to be resolved.
W: We both have trust issues with one another, I dont know if I can live with you again? Me:Feeling is mutual. I know you need time, and actions speak louder than words. But are you willing to talk about these trust issues with me and try to find a solution. I need to know what you need from me, and what I can do to resolve these trust issues. Aguing about them, and sitting on them and stewing gets us nowhere. Me: Im trying to extend the olive branch, before making one or several decisions I may regret later.
W:Im willing to do therapy with you, but you have to know that I'm not guaranteeing that we will stay together. I want to do therapy to see if we can work through these issues.
Me:Perfect. I've been wanting to ask you that for the last two weeks, if I can be invited to therapy. I don't need guarantees right now. I need willingness and effort, so at least we can really say we both tried on both sides.
W:You say you're willing now... are you going to change your mind in a few days?
Me:No. Im solid on this. I've wanting, and hoping for joint therapy since December. and still want it and always did want it. I just thought you weren't comfortable with me being there back in JAN.
W:Scheduling is an issue, it has to be a weekend
Me: I was willing in October i was willing in Jan and i am willing now. I think we just miscommunicated our intentions, and presumably applied the other persons responses to our own beliefs and perceptions.
W: Who do you want to do sessions with?
Me: I can understand why the flip flopping, and the disappoint of hope would lead you to get this far in the first place. That must be frustrating, especially experiencing it for several years.
Me: I want us to agree on a counceler together. One that is equipped and experience to find joint marital solutions, and not necessarily just going round and round bringing up old wounds, old feelings, and remaining stuck. Focus should be solutions, not problems, new dynamics, not old ones. We can talk about this later.
Well I guess I got my wish... She didn't ask me how my day was today...
Be careful what you wish for. Further, I would have advised you NOT to ask her to stop. Just remain detached in answering. "It was good, thanks for asking."
Something short and simple.
^^^Yup, exactly^^^
Originally Posted by IHCLACS
I was considering in creating a polite respectful boundary on this and asking the W not to ask this any longer. I know she is just being polite and would ask this of any typical family member or friend.
The reason why I would like to cease her asking me this every day, because it maintains the marital dynamic to me from my POV.
That doesn't even make sense. You say you know she's just being polite and "would ask this of any typical family member or friend", but you don't want to continue because "it maintains the marital dynamic"? How so? If she would say it to anyone then it has absolutely nothing to do with the M. And your first thought is correct, she's just being polite. It doesn't mean a thing. This is why Steve's suggestion is appropriate.
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I almost wanted to ask her? Are you going to ask me that every time we exchange S1 in the future? Or do you just plan to say hi?
I'm glad you didn't ask that! That sounds really petty, and bratty even.
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Please review text and advise if I handled it ok, and any room for improvement or critique is welcome.
No I don't think it was handled well. You sound all over the place, and your W pretty much said that too. You don't want S, but you want D. You want to sell the house. No you don't. D is what you want. No it isn't, you're being forced to. You want counseling. Or do you? You're supposed to be pulling back, doing NOTHING to help S or D or sell the house and leaving all of that to your W. You don't fight her on it, if she needs info you give it to her. But you're not supposed to be pushing it through yourself unless you are 100% sure that's what you want.
I have no choice but to sell the house. But that isn't what I want. She wants to make a career change this summer, hates her current job which she feels she has had to maintain the mortgage, and we can't afford to maintain mortgage if she transitions to what she wants to do this summer (Going from teacher behavioral specialist to health coach.) , and I can't afford to buy her out.
So in other words AS by not fighting her on it. I should respond " If that is what you need" and give her info, etc... Remain neutral. Don't fight it but don't agree with it, and let her do the heavy lifting.
I know I have to trust the process, but the process is what has made things worse over the last 6 months, but I do get what everyone is saying about doing nothing is doing something, and leaning back, but not fighting.
My 180's are other than where her habits affect S1. I don't criticize anymore, I don't get as angry, frustrated, or scary. Sahara me raising my voice when I'm passionate about something or defensive, scares her. I've never full-blown yelled at her. I talk calmly and evenly now without trying to sound condescending to her. I've stopped trying to control things I know I can't control. I try to regulate my emotions better especially when frustrated. I spend more time with S1 and try to help alleviate her when she needs it. I am more thoughtful and considerate when it comes to her love language of gift-giving and actions. I try to remain more upbeat and sociable unless negative talk to myself and everyone around me, I empathize more. I try to remain more present, and listen better. I'm still having a hard time following through with my actions against my words as far as completing things. I haven't been taken as good care of myself as I should but have been trying. Because I still haven't quit smoking, I shower every night now instead of every morning before I go to bed. I go to sleep consistently now at the same time instead of falling asleep with my phone on the couch. Eventually I'll try and quit again. My working out hasn't been consistent. but I have been going for a lot of walks. More financially involved. I have a list of the notebook I'll mention some more later. There are probably some more important ones as far as actions that I need to implement consistently. But behavioral ones are definitely getting better
It is easier if you write them as bullet points .
What I see as good . 1) Sleep - essential, makes the rest easier 2) don’t criticize 3) talking calmly
The bad 1) gym and smoking. If she doesn’t smoke this should be your no.1 action 2) I see lots of trying. DO or do not young Jedi
The more you tell us the more accurate help you will get . I feel you left off some of the details in the texts and looking at them she gave short sentences and yours were long. If she wants to see consistent changes what will she see ? The only consistent thing I am getting is your flip flopping
Ok I can see that with the flip flopping. The flip flopping has occurred over months based on changes, and how much action has been actually executed over the last 6 months. I know i have been a bit reactive evem while taking the time to think things through. I do understand that my changes have to be consistent. However. She is a flip flopper too. She has changed her mind about exercising, bariatric surgery, and career choices over the last 4 months. So its almost like I feel like a flip flopper is placating to another flip flopper, who cannot accept the fact that they are a flip flopper too. I didn't leave out any details, if anything im too detailed because i want to convey full info and looking for proper advise from board.
IHC, what was the breakthrough? Therapy? You know MC has almost no chance of working. MC has a low success rate to begin with. It is almost NIL when one spouse is not committed to the marriage.
She agreed to it to get you to help her with the house. Very common WAS manipulation technique.
I can't remember. Is she in a PA or EA? Or was she?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Ok Steve85. Thanks. Now I know where this is possibly going as far as MC jointly.
You and I both know MC has a low success rate because But I want to take the lead and lead her the direction of an MC, or better still... Coaching that is Pro M and offers solutions or SBT similar to or with MWD rather than repeating bring up old traumas, resentments, feelings and remaining stuck, which is what I am sure most MC's do because of dated training.
She is not PA. I'm not sure if you can technically call her EA. It was more like a obsessive stalker like celebrity fantasy crush, that almost went full contact. But after I confronted back in Feb. I stopped snooping after. I've watched behaviors, and don't see any EA/PA at this time.
So you definately think I'm being manipulated into this, with no real intention to work on things from her? I think I get it and see the long term POV. No real commitment to work on the M, keeps it open ended, continues to string me along, she gets the sale of the house, the relief of not bring burdeoned with the mortgage any longer, space from me, the new job, her new apt, new life, and gets to reneg on the MC. down the line.
How can I respond this evening, so I am not flip flopping in my words and actions if I am indeed being manipulated? Everything i have tried from DB has been one gigantic stand off p!ssing match for the last 6 months. Its made everything worse. The NC, all of it, reclaiming the MBR which I get. Even Sandi said to stop applying her rules, as they are perceive by her as punitive. So its hard for me to trust the process, but I understand how the process is supposed to be for the long haul to R and not short term. To have the WAS feel loss without direct impunity from the LBH. So what do so I do? More of what doesn't work so far? Everyone here is wondering why im flip flopping. I know I shouldn't have initiated or threatened to initiate the D process though.
How can I respond this evening, so I am not flip flopping in my words and actions if I am indeed being manipulated? Everything i have tried from DB has been one gigantic stand off p!ssing match for the last 6 months. Its made everything worse. The NC, all of it, reclaiming the MBR which I get. Even Sandi said to stop applying her rules, as they are perceive by her as punitive. So its hard for me to trust the process, but I understand how the process is supposed to be for the long haul to R and not short term. To have the WAS feel loss without direct impunity from the LBH. So what do so I do? More of what doesn't work so far? Everyone here is wondering why im flip flopping. I know I shouldn't have initiated or threatened to initiate the D process though.
IHCLACS, it seems to me that you have missed the point of DB.
Have you read Divorce Remedy?
For me, the core of Divorce Remedy is two things:
1. Your behavior has an effect on your relationship. You can improve your relationship by changing YOUR behavior. 2. If your relationship is not good, try doing 180s on behaviors and see which changes improve your relationship and which ones don't.
It's important with #2 to look for small changes, not a big reversal on your wife's decision to sell the house and separate. Big changes usually come after she sees consistent changes from you over time. Like, a lot of time. Even if your 180s have been perfect since January, it hasn't been enough time to balance out the years of the previous behavior.
When I read your posts, I still see a lot of references to your wife's issues. For example, from a post on the previous page where you respond to people calling you out for flip flopping, "However. She is a flip flopper too. She has changed her mind about exercising, bariatric surgery, and career choices over the last 4 months."
Focusing on her issues keeps you from focusing on yours.
It's not important what she has on her side of the street. You have more than enough on your side to keep you busy. Anytime you are tempted to write or think "but she . . . " that's a sign that you are taking the focus off you and putting it on her. You can only change you.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
IHC, switch your thinking. DBing is for you. Not for her. If you are doing GAL, 180s, and detachment with one on eye on how she reacts then you are doing it wrong. You need to be doing those things without a giving a flip what she thinks and how she reacts. That is what validation is for.
Thanks for reminding me. She was the one that was obsessed with the reality TV star. Fantasy. Wayward fog to the extreme.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Just had a realization today. I was running through all the trust issues, behaviors, pet peeve, actions, flip flopping etc of the W and I in my mind. What has bothered me the whole time we have been M. All the issues that have piled up from finances, behaviors, different POV, hurts, slights, offenses, I have owned with humility, and she has not excepted any of hers except for a few major things. And yes we have covered them pretty much with one another. I feel like I have lived with a hypocrite for years who refuses to see, own and acknowledge, and change some of the same behaviors I need to. Im probably one too... and wants to pull power plays on her terms and conditions for control of the situation, relationships, etc. (Maybe A part of me has done with this M as well, struggling for control while projecting.) She is a behavior specialist.
I know a part of me wants to be done, and a part of me wants to approach these issues very prudently, and very deliberately to see if the M can be salvaged from both sides. Because I sure as he'll am not going to do all the changing for her, but for myself. But I have no intentions of R or recommitting to M at this time, unless I am seeing the same amount of effort, action, and changes from her. Trust in a relationship is a give an take two way street, and I don't intend to bend over backwards making improvements on myself if my other half is going to attempt to do the same and half a$$ it.
That's when it all came together for me about the importance of GAL, 180's, detachment, NC, boundaries, validating, space, etc as a whole. People have said it here time and time again. I heard it, I just didn't internalize it. DBing is for YOU not them. Once YOU make those changes, YOU are in a position of power, to move forward either way. YOU get to decide if you want that person in your life still, instead of being rejected by their list of demands, YOU get to be ok no matter what, and YOU take the focus off of them, and put it on yourself, instead of trying to fix them, their perception, etc.
So I decided to look up the definition of PROJECTION, and man does it sum up the majority of the overall dysfunctional dynamics in my M. I am aware that I am doing it, and I don't think she is, and she's a behaviorist. All the things that she wouldn't change to make my life easier, that I chronically complain about, the dishes the, lack of organization in the household, the lethargicness, the lack of follow through, commitment, especially when it came to division of labor. Are the very same things I was doing myself but I was aware of it, and every time she would bring up something against me I would bring up something against her to compare it to. I've always said to her why cannot the behavior see her own behaviors? PROJECTION that is why.
She's been taking full advantage lately of going out every Friday night when I have my son, and I'm off from watching him for that weekend. Something she never wanted to do with me all through out the M because she was too tired and needed to wind down from her workweek. Never wanted to go out on Friday's when I wanted to, even ehen the weather was nice.
Here comes the GGW and the resentment torwards me for her being a mother, and "always having to watch our son" More re-writes.... Oh well time for some more detachment. I'm ignoring her text for "plans"
Guys I need help with something. I need a woman to mansplain this to me. Sandi, DejaVu6, somebody please...lol
I decided to look at various groups on meetup.com just to get my social life back in gear, and just for the sake of it , I searched for single events. Although I am nowhere near ready, I'm not about to even attempt to date anyone, but the wording of this particular event, like many women's divorce articles from surviving to thriving, really caught my attention because it sounds like the same exact stuff relating to self-empowerment that my W is reading, and some of it she is even saying, as I'm sure many here can relate to this.
I understand attraction from a guys POV but that's as far as it goes for me. As far as women who are separated or divorced and attempting in finding love in their life, finding and redefining their identity, and they're authentic self, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it why a woman or how a woman would lose her identity in a relationship, and why all of them self described as if they are walking on eggshells? Particularly in mine, and others situations? To some degree I can understand how they would lose their identity in a very codependent relationship, and I can understand how a lot of women at times can be people pleaser, never setting proper boundaries, being authenticly vulnerable, and assertive in their wants and needs.
It's almost as if I read the same catchphrases and tagwords in all the same divorce articles for women, and although I somewhat have an understanding of a woman's heart, I still have so much more to learn especially at midlife about relationships. I really wish men stuck together more and we're more supportive of one another like women are in a sense.
Here is the event description.
Details FREE tickets for you and a friend because you are in this meetup. You deserve the love of a lifetime: For single women in midlife looking for love This Event Is For You If... ​​​​​​​You’re sick of dating the same person over and over and you’re done doing that… You’re ready for that special love where you’re seen & cherished just as you are… You’re committed to being YOU no matter what, allowing yourself to be fully expressed always in all ways… You’re looking for sisterhood with other women in your boat and wanna have some fun… You’re desiring a safe place to explore why you hold yourself back and are ready for a breakthrough… You want more inner tools to support your vulnerable heart so that your outside love life rocks without it feeling so scary... You’re done abandoning yourself & walking on eggshells and are ridiculously ready to stand strong in what you want and who you are without apology… And so much more…
OUR ITINERARY...
DAY 1: Create your new love story: We will take time to explore what you are truly wanting in this next love chapter and begin the process of letting go of your sabotaging limiting beliefs which continue to hold you back. DAY 2: Magnetize new love: Now that you see how you have been stopping yourself, we light a love fire to attract your next best relationship.
Our Promises…
to you at Find Fabulous Love LIVE
Discover What’s Blocking You From Welcoming In Next Level Love Quiet Your Inner Critic & Squash Your Doubts Amp Up Your Worthiness & Learn How Lovable You Truly Are Reignite Your Fire and Welcome in Hot, Healthy Love Experience Vulnerability In A Whole New Way That’s Not So Scary Connect With Other Sisters On The Same Love Journey Reflect Upon Your Love Life Story And Begin To Change Your Love Story For The Better If you're single and ready for love but feel stuck in some way & you’re a woman in midlife ready to open your heart and trust in love again, this event is a game changer…
Guys I need help with something. I need a woman to mansplain this to me. Sandi, DejaVu6, somebody please...lol
I decided to look at various groups on meetup.com just to get my social life back in gear, and just for the sake of it , I searched for single events. Although I am nowhere near ready, I'm not about to even attempt to date anyone, but the wording of this particular event, like many women's divorce articles from surviving to thriving, really caught my attention because it sounds like the same exact stuff relating to self-empowerment that my W is reading, and some of it she is even saying, as I'm sure many here can relate to this.
I understand attraction from a guys POV but that's as far as it goes for me. As far as women who are separated or divorced and attempting in finding love in their life, finding and redefining their identity, and they're authentic self, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it why a woman or how a woman would lose her identity in a relationship, and why all of them self described as if they are walking on eggshells? Particularly in mine, and others situations? To some degree I can understand how they would lose their identity in a very codependent relationship, and I can understand how a lot of women at times can be people pleaser, never setting proper boundaries, being authenticly vulnerable, and assertive in their wants and needs.
It's almost as if I read the same catchphrases and tagwords in all the same divorce articles for women, and although I somewhat have an understanding of a woman's heart, I still have so much more to learn especially at midlife about relationships. I really wish men stuck together more and we're more supportive of one another like women are in a sense.
Here is the event description.
Details FREE tickets for you and a friend because you are in this meetup. You deserve the love of a lifetime: For single women in midlife looking for love This Event Is For You If... ​​​​​​​You’re sick of dating the same person over and over and you’re done doing that… You’re ready for that special love where you’re seen & cherished just as you are… You’re committed to being YOU no matter what, allowing yourself to be fully expressed always in all ways… You’re looking for sisterhood with other women in your boat and wanna have some fun… You’re desiring a safe place to explore why you hold yourself back and are ready for a breakthrough… You want more inner tools to support your vulnerable heart so that your outside love life rocks without it feeling so scary... You’re done abandoning yourself & walking on eggshells and are ridiculously ready to stand strong in what you want and who you are without apology… And so much more…
OUR ITINERARY...
DAY 1: Create your new love story: We will take time to explore what you are truly wanting in this next love chapter and begin the process of letting go of your sabotaging limiting beliefs which continue to hold you back. DAY 2: Magnetize new love: Now that you see how you have been stopping yourself, we light a love fire to attract your next best relationship.
Our Promises…
to you at Find Fabulous Love LIVE
Discover What’s Blocking You From Welcoming In Next Level Love Quiet Your Inner Critic & Squash Your Doubts Amp Up Your Worthiness & Learn How Lovable You Truly Are Reignite Your Fire and Welcome in Hot, Healthy Love Experience Vulnerability In A Whole New Way That’s Not So Scary Connect With Other Sisters On The Same Love Journey Reflect Upon Your Love Life Story And Begin To Change Your Love Story For The Better If you're single and ready for love but feel stuck in some way & you’re a woman in midlife ready to open your heart and trust in love again, this event is a game changer…
Well I'm wondering the same thing . My W had said the same things man. " I lost my identity , i dont know who i am anymore " like what? how is that even possible?
A man's heart and a woman's heart are very different. A man's heart comes with respect self respect and success, trust, and being somewhat vulnerable, but not a bag of wuss. a man's heart and identity is cemented in their goals and achievements as well as their principles, and core.
A woman's heart I will never fully understand, but have an idea. Because they are so subjected to feelings, passion, and romanticism. I feel like that these ingredients are needed for a good healthy relationship, but it doesn't define unconditional love to me. How do we get better as men at practicing seeing women for who they really are and showing that they are seen? This is what mystifies me in having a male ego. Men are so simple minded and hearted, women are very complex when it comes to relationships.
I think, actually I know women go through more life changes and transitions than men. I would think especially more towards the late thirties early forties as their fertility lessen. they probably ask themselves especially after taking care of children aging parents and sacrificing themselves for their husbands and their families what more is there to life and what do I want to do hence the midlife crisis, or in a more healthy terms midlife transition. Again I can understand how a codependent relationship can lead to a loss of identity and purpose, I just can't understand how it got there in the first place, and why it is rarely expressed in the relationship, and the significance of the relationship until it is too late. How can we be better men at understanding these things recognizing them, and addressing them before they become a major marital problem? How can we use met tell when our spouses are truly happy rather than just pretending to be happy? Because the way it appears to us is the transition comes on very suddenly because we failed to recognize the warning signs.
I think that sounds really wacko, sorry to say. I'm not even sure what they are trying to accomplish. As far as "lost my identity", I think that's a catchall phrase for quite a bit. For me, I never used that term, but, what I did realize is that in the 27 years of my M, most of it was trying to not make waves, smooth things over, and I gave up a lot of the things I liked to do because my H didn't support me. For example, I wanted to FOR YEARS, take a vacation to Alaska or Yellowstone. I used to tell H that Denali National Park was on my bucket list. His response? "Send me a postcard". So, I stopped telling him those dreams and just planned vacations he would enjoy. I usually did too, but would have liked to do so much more. I was also a career woman, and became a stay at home mom for about 14 years. Did I "lose my identify?" No, it was there all the time, but I just didn't nurture it. I'm doing that now, because I'm not using all my energy to try to fix a broken person. I also think some use the 'lost my identity" as an excuse for just not wanting to work things out. It's easier to blame it on something else.
As far as women who are separated or divorced and attempting in finding love in their life, finding and redefining their identity, and they're authentic self, I just can't seem to wrap my head around it why a woman or how a woman would lose her identity in a relationship, and why all of them self described as if they are walking on eggshells? Particularly in mine, and others situations?
I believe women who have abusive or very overbearing H's feel they have to walk on eggshells, b/c the least thing can set him off......so they live in that nervous dread of the next explosion.
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To some degree I can understand how they would lose their identity in a very codependent relationship, and I can understand how a lot of women at times can be people pleaser, never setting proper boundaries, being authenticly vulnerable, and assertive in their wants and needs.
I think these are situations where people feel suppressed, or don't have the courage to be the person they want to be. Perhaps they have not had the opportunity to develop some areas of their life. I suppose we all have certain things that hold us back to some extent. We have to have boundaries and act civilized, and if we are going to be in a loving relationship.....it can't be about us all the time. It has to be about our spouse. I just don't think losing one's identity or "finding yourself" is a proper definition. Too many people use it to mean too many things.
We have these popular catch-phrases that spouses use as their reasoning for breaking up a marriage. In WW terms, "finding herself" really means to ditch the H. Personally, I think people go through transitions. Some may refer to positive transition as growth or reinventing themselves (another catch phrase). This "needing to find oneself" might apply to someone who has suffered traumatic mental/emotional distress, IDK. However, if we are referring to the usual WW we find here on the board and her giving the excuse of needing to find her own identity, I think is b.s. I mean, is there nothing else she can do to help her find her "authentic self"?
This is the same message they were giving women back in the '70's. Women were told to not refer to themselves as Mrs. So & So, b/c that was her H's name, not her's. Women need their own identity. It was part of the equality movement. There were bra burning rallies. SAHM's is an updated term. They use to be called "housewives", until they were ridiculed for staying home and raising a family. They were told they weren't happy, b/c nobody could be happy being a housewife! They needed to ditch their H, and find a career b/c they were not living up to their full potential. Go find themselves! Otherwise, they were nothing more than a servant to their H and kids. So, whether intended or not, the marriage and family/home life took a serious hit. It was everywhere on television. The talk shows, the movies, magazines, etc. were all spreading the same propaganda. Families were breaking up left & right. The same message is being bought today. Women were told they could "have it all", which was a lie. Today, women have so much it's too heavy to bear the weight.
I don't think a woman would lose her identity in a normal MR, unless she had a mental problem. I've seen some women who I thought did not feel they could express their personality as freely as they would like, but they knew who they were. I've known a few who were beaten down emotionally and physically, but they knew who they were. Once they got out of the abusive situation, they flourished and it might have appeared they had a new identity.....but they knew who they were.
I agree with Grace. I think finding her authentic self is garbage. It seems handy for some people to use as an excuse to forsake the vows, morals, spiritual beliefs, and live like the wind that has no direction.......all in the name of finding themselves.
As for the article.......it's pretty cheesy. I've never been to a meetup event, but do they have people trained in these areas? Are there psychologists on the scene of these meetups? I mean, that is coating it pretty thick. It kind of reminds me of some MR books I've seen advertised.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I think, actually I know women go through more life changes and transitions than men. I would think especially more towards the late thirties early forties as their fertility lessen. they probably ask themselves especially after taking care of children aging parents and sacrificing themselves for their husbands and their families what more is there to life and what do I want to do hence the midlife crisis, or in a more healthy terms midlife transition. Again I can understand how a codependent relationship can lead to a loss of identity and purpose, I just can't understand how it got there in the first place, and why it is rarely expressed in the relationship, and the significance of the relationship until it is too late. How can we be better men at understanding these things recognizing them, and addressing them before they become a major marital problem? How can we use met tell when our spouses are truly happy rather than just pretending to be happy? Because the way it appears to us is the transition comes on very suddenly because we failed to recognize the warning signs.
I have heard many married women say they want to be more than a wife and mother when they seem something elsewhere . The cause I believe or the truth is most likely what Grace and Sandi quote. There has and does seem to be some sort of prolonged media agenda being propagated . Why ? I am unsure but it seems to be there .
Sandi: "I believe women who have abusive or very overbearing H's feel they have to walk on eggshells, b/c the least thing can set him off......so they live in that nervous dread of the next explosion."
Sandi I can totally understand that from a woman's perspective, and my W'S and sympathise with it, being as emotionally frustrated and fluctuating as I am with some circumstances of life. I can see how I was overbearing in some areas, and yet understanding in others. Especially when it came to division of labor. I can actually see from my W's perspective how at times under stress and frustration how in some moments she would have to walk on eggshells in silence, I could have been unintentionally emotionally arrogant, stubborn, and unshakeable in my own perceptions and beliefs in the past which I am attempting to 180 on. Not that it matters at this point. Damage is already done.
I'm glad however that you do see through the Women's Lib movement. I am not saying a Woman even needs to depend on a Man or a Husband if that is what they choose. If Women would prefer their independence, pursuit of happiness, life and purpose beyond marriage and divorce, then have at it. Who am I to tell anyone how to feel, what to pursue, and what goals, dreams, desires, what is right, and what decisions to make.
I've read a lot of self-help stuff throughout the years as well, and continue to do so. There is nothing wrong with changing, improving, and taking different directions in life when needed. But again like yourself, I think a lot of this self empowerment stuff, although well meaning, and sometimes helpful, but is I'm some form, nothing more than polished sales tactics, fancily crafted wording geared torward women, that is ungrounded in reality, offering hope and promise of a new life, a new transition, a new beginning, to those that are desperate to change for the better, that have left their old lives behind, including their marriages for promises of something greater. IMO the self help community sells. It sells to men and women alike in the information age. The trend I notice with society from now, going back to the depression era, the difference being, everyone is on a mission to improve themselves, feel better, do more, be more, accomplish more, being overloaded more, distracted more, and demanded more of. Your right Sandi. Its already too much for men and women to bear the weight. The odd thing is about today in the 21st century in comparison with the 20th century is, some of us are accomplishing more but the majority of us are accomplishing less. I'm guilty of this too, as some of us read too much and do too little. Our time is consumed by the practicalities of life. Some manage it better than others. Some of us achieve our goals and dreams, and some just start it and give up.
to subscribe to guru's, . I did notice that the trend is that it is focused more on the self and Independence, then it is on a sacrifice and commitment. I think it works for some, and not for others, like everything else we follow and choose. Even DB is somewhat of a guru subscription. But it is unprecedented that's for sure. It suits our agendas, because MWD has seen through the empty promises of D, and the lies that it offers, and what it does to families. It doesn't get easier, it gets harder. But then again, that all depends on an individual's perception, and experience.
I have to wince a bit when I read comments that include "because women" or "because men" statements. I know that it maybe comforting to think that the situations we find ourselves in are caused by socio-cultural shifts in our world, but thinking this way will always create tendency to take us off track as to why we find ourselves in our situations. It's easy to start believing in a media conspiracy, or some kind of absurdly large and abstract force that plays a large part in creating our suffering because it's easier to believe that a force beyond of our control is running the show. It's a form of psychological denial which temporarily alleviates the helplessness we feel when confronted with seemingly insurmountable obstacles to our happiness. However, it can become an intellectual trap that closes doors on self-reflection and brutally critical reasoning that needs to happen in order for us to become better people. It's true, there is always going to be problems with social movements because they are always messy affairs. But one has to be really careful that it is not a focus of the journey into our internal selves where the real work has to happen. The thing to always keep in my is that whatever we focus on expands to displace everything else.
I know. It's tempting to blame 'women's lib' or 'toxic masculinity' for what is happening to us. However, there is always a flip side to every coin. Often I hear the LBS talking about how their partner wants to crash out of the relationship while screaming "I need to find myself!", and often I see it dismissed as some kind of 'brain fart' and they should 'just snap out of it'... but I have been thinking about this for a very long time and how it pertains to my own situation (I have dismissed my W's statements to the effect at the beginning of my own sit), so hear me out.
Our need for an 'actualized identity' is very real. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you that it is the most important part of us because it's literally who we are and where out self-esteem and motivations come from. For a person to lose their identity is a real crisis because the loss of 'self' is a catastrophic breakdown in our self-support system. I know that it has played a huge rule in my own situation as I have come to understand the loss of my own identity to co-dependence with my W.
When I first met my W I was an extremely fit, happy, out-going male who traveled all over the world, had a lot of friends and suitors. I loved who I was. I didn't think I was better than anyone, but I valued myself to a healthy degree. As I fell into my relationship and started a family I had to focus more on my career and became successful at it. It meant long hours at the studio, and less time dedicated to nurturing my own support systems (including my marriage). And because of the way I was brought up this is how I thought things are supposed to go - I substituted my own identity for something that was pushed on my be the environment I grew up in. Then I became unhappy and unfulfilled, and the rest is obvious history.
The point I'm trying to get at is that I could easily blame societal expectations on what happened to me because that's what was modeled to me as 'success'. However that wouldn't solve my problem. I had to look deep into myself and realize what was at the root of my situation wasn't what was expected of me as a 'family man'. The real key was regain the person that I was at the beginning of my relationship with my W, and then become even better. This was/is deeply personal journey and introspective work, and still ongoing.
That is also the point of DBing; to find yourself, to become a fully actualized happy human being (look up Maslow's Hierarchy) so that you may have a chance at winning back the relationship with that person who thought you were special enough to have a life with you. That's where the work is. Blaming (wrongly or rightfully) a social concept is only going to keep us spinning in an endless intellectual loops to nowhere. They don't matter. This is why I wince at the first-mentioned statements; it's because they are just distractions away form the truth. It allows us to assign the blame to the next person and limit the efficacy of the work we ought to be doing.
The last point I'm going to make is that I no longer dismiss it when I hear my W, or anyone else, say "I need to find myself" or "I don't know who I am anymore". I realize now that this is a cry for help from a person who is hurting a tremendous amount, who wants to find the happiness they once had, or maybe never had. This deserves my respect because it is an incredibly brave act. To risk everything at the chance to break away from unhappiness IS worthy of respect, and is NOT as selfish an act as it seems. I know, it doesn't do anything to minimize our own hurt and resentment. Not at first. But, ultimately, it does obligate me meet this person with compassion give as much support as I can to them because everybody has a right to be happy, and because we don't own people we care about. They don't owe us to stay with us at the expense of their own identity and happiness. That is the underlying truth that, I think, is that the root of DBing and letting go, and what blaming 'women's lib' obscures. And so I wince.
Last edited by MarcPa; 04/21/1903:52 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity
IHCLACS, I'm gonna bottom-line it for you. If you want to have a chance at get back with your wife let her have a chance at finding her happiness. Be supportive of that by accepting that you have to let her go. Don't dismiss her feelings, or blame what is happening to her on 'this or that'. Blame will not bring her closer to you. Rather, understand her pain. Respect her as a human being. Work to forgive her, and your self. Validate her feelings. And most importantly, don't make this about you. She doesn't owe you your happiness at the expense of her own. Once you understand this I guarantee that you will find the peace that comes with grace, and you will have a better chance than anything of getting her back.
I have to wince a bit when I read comments that include "because women" or "because men" statements. I know that it maybe comforting to think that the situations we find ourselves in are caused by socio-cultural shifts in our world, but thinking this way will always create tendency to take us off track as to why we find ourselves in our situations. It's easy to start believing in a media conspiracy, or some kind of absurdly large and abstract force that plays a large part in creating our suffering because it's easier to believe that a force beyond of our control is running the show. It's a form of psychological denial which temporarily alleviates the helplessness we feel when confronted with seemingly insurmountable obstacles to our happiness. However, it can become an intellectual trap that closes doors on self-reflection and brutally critical reasoning that needs to happen in order for us to become better people. It's true, there is always going to be problems with social movements because they are always messy affairs. But one has to be really careful that it is not a focus of the journey into our internal selves where the real work has to happen. The thing to always keep in my is that whatever we focus on expands to displace everything else.
I know. It's tempting to blame 'women's lib' or 'toxic masculinity' for what is happening to us. However, there is always a flip side to every coin. Often I hear the LBS talking about how their partner wants to crash out of the relationship while screaming "I need to find myself!", and often I see it dismissed as some kind of 'brain fart' and they should 'just snap out of it'... but I have been thinking about this for a very long time and how it pertains to my own situation (I have dismissed my W's statements to the effect at the beginning of my own sit), so hear me out.
Our need for an 'actualized identity' is very real. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you that it is the most important part of us because it's literally who we are and where out self-esteem and motivations come from. For a person to lose their identity is a real crisis because the loss of 'self' is a catastrophic breakdown in our self-support system. I know that it has played a huge rule in my own situation as I have come to understand the loss of my own identity to co-dependence with my W.
When I first met my W I was an extremely fit, happy, out-going male who traveled all over the world, had a lot of friends and suitors. I loved who I was. I didn't think I was better than anyone, but I valued myself to a healthy degree. As I fell into my relationship and started a family I had to focus more on my career and became successful at it. It meant long hours at the studio, and less time dedicated to nurturing my own support systems (including my marriage). And because of the way I was brought up this is how I thought things are supposed to go - I substituted my own identity for something that was pushed on my be the environment I grew up in. Then I became unhappy and unfulfilled, and the rest is obvious history.
The point I'm trying to get at is that I could easily blame societal expectations on what happened to me because that's what was modeled to me as 'success'. However that wouldn't solve my problem. I had to look deep into myself and realize what was at the root of my situation wasn't what was expected of me as a 'family man'. The real key was regain the person that I was at the beginning of my relationship with my W, and then become even better. This was/is deeply personal journey and introspective work, and still ongoing.
That is also the point of DBing; to find yourself, to become a fully actualized happy human being (look up Maslow's Hierarchy) so that you may have a chance at winning back the relationship with that person who thought you were special enough to have a life with you. That's where the work is. Blaming (wrongly or rightfully) a social concept is only going to keep us spinning in an endless intellectual loops to nowhere. They don't matter. This is why I wince at the first-mentioned statements; it's because they are just distractions away form the truth. It allows us to assign the blame to the next person and limit the efficacy of the work we ought to be doing.
The last point I'm going to make is that I no longer dismiss it when I hear my W, or anyone else, say "I need to find myself" or "I don't know who I am anymore". I realize now that this is a cry for help from a person who is hurting a tremendous amount, who wants to find the happiness they once had, or maybe never had. This deserves my respect because it is an incredibly brave act. To risk everything at the chance to break away from unhappiness IS worthy of respect, and is NOT as selfish an act as it seems. I know, it doesn't do anything to minimize our own hurt and resentment. Not at first. But, ultimately, it does obligate me meet this person with compassion give as much support as I can to them because everybody has a right to be happy, and because we don't own people we care about. They don't owe us to stay with us at the expense of their own identity and happiness. That is the underlying truth that, I think, is that the root of DBing and letting go, and what blaming 'women's lib' obscures. And so I wince.
I still don't know how you Lose yourself . Happiness comes from within sure. They have lost that and that I can accept. The part I struggle with is I think they can find themselves and stay married instead of giving up . Most women are the ones who really dream of being married and having the married like after all. Like I said if they need time to work on themselves or whatever the issue at hand is thats fine but you dont need to walk away from your vows for that. You know the ones which said for better or worse, till death do us part? Well they meant something in the olden days. I understand this new era isn't the same I get it. My core values and my soul are marriage is forever. Thats just who I am. I guess i need to find a partner that shares that logic. Not one that said them just to say them or really said
The real key was regain the person that I was at the beginning of my relationship with my W, and then become even better. This was/is deeply personal journey and introspective work, and still ongoing.
Great post. This particularly is something I've focused on for the past several months--probably since the divorce was finalized. It's not about becoming a new person. I have a lot of great qualities--qualities that my XW happened to fall in love with. Those include being generally positive, generous, genuine, loyal, and easy going. Step #1 was to get back to the person I was at the beginning of the relationship. Step #2 was to 180 on my bad qualities. The key part is being able recognize them. Step #3 was to start doing things that I haven't always been comfortable with. I have made strides in all three areas, but I still have a long ways to go.
bubbs - People change with time. They evolve, while their partner changes too. Circumstances transform in unanticipated ways. But I get what you're saying bubbs. It feels like you were cheated because you believe in your vow more strongly than your partner did, and that's hard to take. However, didn't your vows also include honoring, cherishing, and making your partner happy? Mine did. And that's the dilemma - which supersedes the other. Is her happiness less important than mine. Believe me, I get it. I struggled with this too. I was raised Catholic. A vow is supposed to be a vow. But then I asked myself this question; would I be happy knowing that my partner is miserable? Is that how I express my love for my partner? By capturing her in misery? Shouldn't I let go of an unhappy marriage for the love of other? Do we withhold agency from the ones we love for fear of losing our own happiness? What does 'loving unconditionally' really mean to me?
Last edited by MarcPa; 04/21/1905:38 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity
Great points that LBS don't/can't see until they are on the other side. The LBS is quick to declare that "happiness comes from within" while they are trying so hard to hold onto the WW for their perceived happiness. The LBS will say "divorce will destroy the children's lives" but when it comes to coparenting they won't coparent in a way that is healthy for the children. Both sides are being selfish yet neither can see the other side.
My ex stayed for a year and a half for the children half heartly trying. Being divorced is 100 times better then being with a spouse that has checked out.
I truly believe that if at BD the LBS truly took the focus off the WW, worked on themselves to become the best version of themselves and made every move with strength the opportunity for recon would be highly probable within 2-5 years.
This rarely happens because the LBS starts spinning out of control and does too much damage as the LBS is on their way out the door.
MarcPA, Bubs, and Harvey. Thank you for helping regain some compassion and clairity. I will re-read your insightful reminders everyday so that I don't make this about me again.
I seem to have a different opinion in regards to placing blame on the LBS. Certainly in some member's cases they were controlling, had anger etc. But there many of us that were always looking to make them happy. And still failed due to their inner past trauma.
My previous long relationship was raped when she was young and always saw me as the enemy. SHe left me for another man, who I read recently comited suicide. I can only think of how much guilt she must have been throwing at this man, making him feel responsible for all her emotional pain. There is so much one can take.
Our common IC told me that the reason the current wife picked me was exactly because she saw me as a father figure, someone who could make her pain go away. But all my efforts failed. Her will was stronger than mine.,
There is a scene in "Midnight Express" where the hero is going around a wheel somewhere in a Turkish prison where most have lost their mind. An intelligent professor / patient explains to him that they are both in the right place, since they are broken machines. It didnt matter that he was intelligent, he had rationalized his failure. The hero snaps and tells him he is not broken, and he knows cause he comes from the factory that makes the machines. (something to that effect) And he leaves.
So in regards to allowing our spouses to find their happiness, I agree, let them go. But dont assume we were the problem in their finding their hapiness
For example read my case below:.
My wife first came on to me and called me first. She had told her friends she would be so happy if went out.
Then her happiness was about her moving in with me. Again her choice when she lost her apartment.
Then she wanted marriage to be happy. Not my choice either.,
Then she was envious of all her friends that had kids. Even though she had gynecological problems I paid a ton of money so we can have a kid. This was her happiness she said.
She wanted me to spend more time with them to be happy. I did just that. Abandoned all my friends. And I feel bad saying this but she had me not talk to my family either.
I paid for IC for her cause she wasnt happy. I also paid for her gym membership cause she wasnt happy. She met another man there. Now she is happy.
---
So I kind of disagree with the notion of "finding yourself". As Sandi has mentioned its usually BS to allow them to run into the sunset with OM.
There is this great line by comedian Sebastian Maniscalco when he told his dad he needs to go find himself. His dad told him. "What you say. I find you. You are right here in front of me. Now go get a job. "
B.D in December 2018 Physical Affairs discovered in April 2019 Divorced May 2019 H (me) 49 W (her) 29
Hi gzabetas. I'm not sure if you're referring to my posts, but regarding blame, it was never my intention to assign blame to the LBS. I think in many cases we as partners want what is best for people we allow into our lives and get burned as a result. I also think 'blaming' is a toxic expression of the anger we feel towards people who, in spite of our best efforts, cause us tremendous hurt and devastation in our lives. Blame is pointless anyway. It's a loaded term that just gives 'meaning' to the rage we feel. It distracts us from what should be an understanding of our situation. It enables us to sit in judgement of another person, and makes us feel justified in negative choices we sometimes make as a result. It promotes wallowing in our pain. Often times we blame our selves as well which causes us additional damage. Worst of all, it can keep us from moving on and accepting how little control we have over the other person's circumstance. It's not a good concept.
I think the better way is to re-frame blame into something else. Instead of looking for blame, try to describe it to your self as trying to attain 'an understanding' of the dynamic that led both parties to the situation they find them selves in. It's kind of a Jedi mind trick we can apply on our selves, because it allows us to dump the toxic negativity that comes with the word 'blame'. This of course doesn't really solve our immediate problems. The pain, hurt, disappointment, and especially the fear, are emotions that work HARD against 'understanding', and blame enables us to continue 'feed' those feelings. It's especially cold comfort to someone who just had a bomb dropped into their lives. I know this. When my firs BD happened, the rage, both at my partner, and my self was all consuming. I blamed her, her messed up parents, the guy that raped her a year before we met, her skin condition, and the messed up world we live in. I especially blamed my self the most, and it was eating me alive. But then, I read an interesting story that changed the trajectory of my pain because it illustrated perfectly that 'blaming' just kept putting more and more air into the pain balloon. I needed less air in the balloon. Anyway, here's the story I copied and pasted from another site:
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – his is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.” The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?” The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
It's a powerful story. It teaches us that we can succumb to the negativity, or we can chose to feed the good things that will attract other good things into our lives. Sometimes means a new relationship, or sometimes our old relationship coming back to us in a new context. This is why 'understanding' rather than 'blame' is key, and is a choice that is ultimately up to us to make. I'm not going to pretend that it is an easy choice. I struggle daily with all the negative emotions trying to beat my door down.
Ultimately, the point of 'understanding' is to forgive. To forgive our partner, but also to forgive our selves. Without forgiveness there is no release from the pain. There is just old age filled with regret. Anger, fear, resentment, and blame has never brought happiness, into our lives. I can also guarantee that none of these things have every brought back the partner of anyone who spent time in this forum. I defy you to quote a post where someone said "my fear, anger, and blame brought my partner back and now we're happy!" Am I right? So what is the point of blame anyway?
IHCLACS - I think you earlier posted the lyrics to Don Henley's 'Heart of The matter' which illustrates the person in the song coming to an understanding, and ultimately forgiving their partner. It's funny how I always liked the song, but missed the meaning of it until now. I have to say that I really appreciated you posting it. It helped me to affirm to myself that I am on the right track. That I need to forgive. I hope you don't mind me re-posting it. It's powerful-healing stuff:
I got the call today, I didn't want to hear But I knew that it would come An old, true friend of ours was talkin' on the phone She said you found someone And I thought of all the bad luck And the struggles we went through And how I lost me and you lost you What are those voices outside love's open door Make us throw off our contentment And beg for something more? I'm learning to live without you now But I miss you sometimes The more I know, the less I understand, All the things I thought I knew, I'm learning again I've been tryin' to get down To the heart of the matter But my will gets weak And my thoughts seem to scatter But I think it's about forgiveness Forgiveness Even if, even if you don't love me anymore These times are so uncertain There's a yearning undefined People filled with rage We all need a little tenderness How can love survive in such a graceless age? Ah, the trust and self-assurance that lead to happiness They're the very things we kill, I guess Oh, pride and competition Cannot fill these empty arms And the work I put between us, you know it doesn't keep me warm I'm learning to live with out you now But I miss you, baby And the more I know, the less I understand All the things I thought I'd figured out I have to learn again I've been trying to get down To the heart of the matter But everything changes And my friends seem to scatter But I think it's about forgiveness Forgiveness Even if, even if you don't love me anymore There are people in your life Who've come and gone They let you down You know they've hurt your pride You better put it all behind you baby 'Cause life goes on You keep carryin' that anger It'll eat you up inside baby I've been trying to get down To the heart of the matter But my will gets weak And my thoughts seem to scatter But I think it's about forgiveness Forgiveness Even if, even if you don't love me I've been tryin' to get down To the heart of the matter Because the flesh will get weak And the ashes will scatter So, I'm thinkin' about forgiveness Forgiveness Even if , even if you don't love me Forgiveness, forgiveness, baby Forgiveness, forgiveness Forgiveness, forgiveness Even if, even if you don't love me Forgiveness, forgiveness Forgiveness, forgiveness Forgiveness, forgiveness
Marc there are others as well here on this forum who share the belief that for a relationship to fail it is a 50/50 deal. My take is that even if it takes 2 people to work on the R, it takes one to break it. It really does.
For many of us members here on this site we didnt share the same template relationship, others were more angry and angst driven. I was mature and late in my age so I had worked out all those issues, so hence my surprise at BD.
I agree with your post, and that is what Christianity teaches us as well. I am in the south of Greece and I am half ready to move into a monastery similar to Alyosha in the brothers Karanazov.
I am losing faith in the world, and every time I try to make sense of my partner and their situation I get handed the old statement "look on your side". My recent take is that my side can be sparkling clean and R may still fail.
If our spouse walked into the room one day and said they thought they were Napoleon, would we be really contemplating what we had to do with their mental /emotional breakdown.
You have moved on further than me and are wise, and I really liked your story. One day I hope to get there.
B.D in December 2018 Physical Affairs discovered in April 2019 Divorced May 2019 H (me) 49 W (her) 29
Not at all Marc. Always loved the song, but never really knew the whole meaning myself. Man did it take on a whole new meaning. Especially about how outside influences can throw off our contention.When I got BD back in Oct, I looked it up, started playing and singing it around the house when the W wasn't home as a form of release.. I found it so resonating with my sich, (as im sure everyone else's here) that every single time I got to the part "Even if..Even if.. You don't love me anymore..." I would lose my $hit balling. It still strike a chord with me emotionally now, but im able to get through the whole song.
$hit here comes another panic attack going down 12 years of memories in my mind, and the realtor coming this weekend. I definitely need to do some yoga to bring me back to the present a little better.
IHCLACS seems our timelines are running in parallel.
I had her movers show up today to figure out how and when to move her. Tomorrow we may sign the papers if we get our lawyers together. When I lie down my memories run back to when we first met. I remember walking into her apartment and the wall clock she had was with a greek soccer team that was also my favorite. I thought this was the sign.
If it makes you feel any better right now the reason I am not collapsing is that I have 2 old greek men (my father and her father) ready to stroke out ( with her shenanigans) and I am playing it cool (like cool hand luke) in front of everyone to control emotions run amok.
But alas I am sitting here applying ointment on a rash that just broke out on my arm.
I am trying to feed the calm wolf and starve the angry one per Mark's great story earlier.
It seems that angry wolf came out anyway and is scratching my arm metaphorically speaking....
Courage amigo . To both of us.
B.D in December 2018 Physical Affairs discovered in April 2019 Divorced May 2019 H (me) 49 W (her) 29
Almost had a numbing anxious nervous breakdown yesterday. I smoked 2 1/2 packs yesterday. Journaling and therapy, I received some self focusing ideas and suggestions from co-workers on self focus which helped. I started out this morning as I do every morning, just trying to think about me, my goals, my focus, and it usually starts out empowering, but then slowly shifts on my rides to work about her, her focus, her improvements, (or attempts at them) my jealousy and insecurity of it, and measuring and comparing against myself. I had to imagine the STOP sign and yell at myself to stop at least 5 times. I realize I have back slidden on my changes from 2 months ago. Im going to start working out, running, or something today before the stress kills me.
This is the part that is making me mentally and emotionally insane, is the constant mind shifting of the focus between me and her because we still live together. I know on one hand to think about her is completely fruitless and doesn't serve me any longer at this point. On the other hand, it serves as a compulsive reminder for clues on what I need to change for ME. Its a constant internal struggle with me between letting her go, practically saying "the hell with her" at times to put the focus back on me, and other times, I just want to be the best version of me, regardless of what she thinks. One side of me wants to just GTF away from her. Not because of anything she is specifically doing, other than wanting to seperate and divide, but because I just want a fresh start, without having to go through all the pain of moving, negotiating, figuring things out, fully accepting it as my new reality....Living in a now distant, silent household, other than interactions with S1. I really have to ask myself sometimes, is it her, or is it me that's being distant. Probably both. I guess that's what we call "space" This detachment thing, being it, and doing it right is really hard as in to will yourself into that neutral but friendly mindset. She's there. (Or appears to be there)
I actually think I understand now what W meant months ago, about going numb, and most of the reasons for it, R issues, home issues, money issues, self esteem issues, etc...I can now relate to that.
I told my IC about my journaling, and its almost like I have 4 personas or voices going on in my head from moment to moment, and with each thought is intensity of emotions.
The first one is my prideful ego, pushing me to move forward, get stuff accomplished, move on, and pursue healthy, (and possibly unhealthy) dating... Avenues of companionship, because I feel alone, and barely supported. It is encouraging at times, I can do this, I can make an independent life work, I can pursue happiness, grow, nuture my well being and strive forward.
The second one is a hurt, numb, negative, hopeless, rejected, abondoned child with no desire to focus, strive forward, or think, just wants to rest, sleep, or have fun.
The third one is a side that wants to be more considerate, empathetic, and compassionate, that wants to put other peoples needs, and their POV of the world first, seeking understanding, to break me out of my own box of a world and how I perceive it to be.
The fourth one is just arrogance, and bitterness. Because angry feels better than hurt, or helplessness. But I really had to ask myself. Who am I really angry with? Her because of what she is doing? ? Or myself for backsliding?
My IC made a good suggestion yesterday about journaling specifically on each side or POV, and learning to integrate them.
I feel as if I am at the end of me, temporarily lost myself, and am at the beginning of re-committing, and focusing on the new me, the goals, the survival, the initiation and follow through. I have no choice, the house is getting sold no matter what on her agenda, and I can't afford nor do I want to keep the home, or buy her out. I have to figure out a life independent of her, for myself and my S1 and how I am going to maintain and provide for that, housing, etc. I'm going to probably have to purchase a lot of new things, car seat, bedding, TV, and all the stuff that comes with a child.
What is troubling my health, well being, and focus on myself is still living with her, and still having to negotiate things because of the child scheduling, unfinished house projects, division of time and labor, etc.
I need to go out and play, and GAL in the worst way. I'm just going to do it and still take care of priorities, but limit them on my timeline. I have to because if I don't set aside time/money to do some comforting things, instead of just work, eat, read, and sleep, im going to crack.
Another thing. W and I are probably swapping a few weekends around next month. Im going to think it through today before I give an answer. I mentioned Mother's day, and how my weekend falls on it, so I asked W what her plans and intentions were for Mothers day. She suggested, but only suggested she wanted to get myself, her mom, my mom, and S1 together at a local spot in town for brunch.
Again like Easter... I don't know what the right move is? Do I do things seperate like I decided to do for Easter? Or do I arrange the get together along with her suggestion? I know its for the sake of the Mom's and S1 and has nothing to do with the MR. Again on one hand, I need to emotionally protect myself, and I figure if she has been pushing the S all this time, then im going to act seperated. On the other hand, I feel like I am the one that's missing out, is being standoffish, and slapping away kindness from W and MIL. I know it's ultimately my choice. Im sure Sandi will put it to me one way, Steve85 will put it to me another way, LH19 will as well. WTH do I do? I know it won't have any immediate impact other than for the sake of the Mom's and S1 Or will it? It's like why does she keep inviting me to these things if we are going to eventually seperate?
It’s VERY hard and confusing. The focus needs to be you and kids . A great man puts his kids first . In each interaction future or present , decide what is best for them ? I say go to when she invites and be the best dam happy father you can be . One that can enjoy and smile regardless of what “ she / thinks/ wants”
You should temper that with what you can handle at the time depending on your pma. Talk to other people and enjoy the time . How else can you show what a great man you are ? Who has learned to be strong in the worst adversity
OK, so don't be so sure about separation being any easier, believe me. Just because they're not in the house doesn't mean they're not in your head! Luckily the same applies to them as well, they don't forget you just because they live elsewhere. And how interesting that you have that same desire to get away, to make a fresh start, to get away from the pain etc that your W has. So maybe you have more empathy than you think??
Those four people sound very familiar to me, another way I heard it discussed recently is that the grown up you should be in the driver's seat. The children, all those sad, mad voices are allowed to sit in the car, but they're not allowed to drive. Because they shouldn't be allowed to be in charge. You can talk to them, listen to them, acknowledge them and care for them and their feelings, but you're still in the driver's seat. I like the journalling idea, let us know how it goes.
It was mother's day here recently and my dh came back and we went to lunch with the kids. It was nice, neither of us had any expectations but it was good to just get together with family. I think you should probably do it, and celebrate together. Celebrations are important even when life is going horribly wrong. Other opinions are available.
For me the silence was the worst. When W would take off overnight to school in another town (and to meet her EA), I would put the kids to bed and then had the rest of the evening to myself. The quiet of a still house was the worst. I couldn't think about anything else but where things had gone wrong. I blamed mostly myself back then. I ground myself down mercilessly first for causing this then for not taking a stance years ago when I realized she was checked out. Then again what can you do, really? Until you go through this you don't have any experience or the tools to go through this. Things are different now.
IHCLACS, I don't think you should, though you will, worry about this process. It's a process. You have experienced a severe trauma not unlike a death of someone very close to you, except the thing that died was your relationship. To not experience what you're experiencing now would mean that you don't have a functioning emotional system. So that's something. Anyhow, the thing you're experience is a part of the process, just the same as the terror of a quiet house was for me. Things will get better. They did for me. They won't be ideal, and my relationship is probably gone, but I'm recognizing that it wasn't all my fault... or fault at all. This is what I was saying earlier about blame. That's why blame leads us so astray.
In my case I didn't know she had ADHD. Not until my son was diagnosed. Over time, as I researched the psychology of human relationships, the disorder, and the general chaos of the human condition it made it easier for me to understand. To forgive. From then the self-loathing, rage, the terror of loneliness and self pity began to abate. It turned into something else. At some point she came back and said she wants work on the marriage, but something in me changed. It's as if the tether that kept me chained to her was dissolved so when she withdrew again and asked to separate I agreed without hesitation. I think I was done.
Point is, that what's happening to you right now is a tragedy, but a tragedy that will pass. What you're describing is normal. Better than normal. I see progress. If you honestly do the work, focus on being a better you, dump the anger and blame it will leave you a better person. The process is hell, and it takes a very long time. I'm not going to kid you. My sich has been going on for years and is by no means over. My angry wolf is constantly jerking his chain. He's hungry. He wants my anger. He wants me to focus on what I'm losing. He has many tricks to get it, and sometimes in my weaker moments he succeeds. However, my mind is firmly set on the good wolf. The one that's compassionate, grateful, curious, a kind parent. I feed that one more than I do the other and I do see a difference. From then to now. Not just in how I relate to my immediate family, but in how easily I form connections even with strangers. It feels good. Really, really good. I really wish the same for you and everybody else here, but I think you'll be ok. There will be dark times and pain, but remember that the process you're dealing with right now is forging tools that will allow you to get through it ok. You just have to really want it good things... and feed the right wolf.
Thanks Marc Pa for sharing you're experience and all of your insight. You have been really helpful to serve as a reminder that we are not the only ones hurting, and it is not only about just our POV at times.
You are right. Both our IC's have said similar things about not really having the tools and the proper coping mechanisms to deal with these communication and relationship issues during those times.. Like yourself, eventually I became ok with my own forgiveness, the one sided blame and pity. I made friends with "the wolf" and let that go. But the thing I can't seem to let go is my capacity to change. I change very slowly from prior experience. But I know I need to take the info, and just do it immediately. Not tomorrow, not next week, not 6 months from now. Just now. Small goals one week at a time. Medium goals several months at a time. The introspective persona stuff and relationship stuff I can work on. The behavioral stuff is a little more challenging for me, but I'm getting better at it.
Its the management, balance, and follow through of life that concerns me. Finances, prioritizing, GAL time, work time, child time, family time, etc... You see, my W knows this knowing me for 12 years, me being vulnerable at times, and her being a behaviorist, that although I am very intellectual, bright, and creative, the learning disability has its way of sabotaging my self esteem sometimes , affecting my managenent, executive functioning and balance of things, leading to incompletion of tasks at times, anxiety under certain types of deadline pressure, multiple job loss, many prior relationship loss, and some of the expectations that come of them. Its my truth and partially my self fulfilling prophecy that I have been left in EVERY RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE OF IT. But that's ok. That's going to be my next challenge in life. Finding my own balance independently. Maybe I might surprise her? Maybe I might surprise myself? I know through the pain and experience I will definately grow from it. If she eventually comes back around someday, great, if not, great...lol... I know myself just well enough to know what I have to work on and change, and I know well enough what W has to work on as well, whether she wants to admit it to me or not. If it is still up for considerstion for me in the future, I will be qualifying her just as much as she will be qualifying me.
I know I am mostly normal like every one else here including yourself going through this. I appreciate you sharing that with me. I can also sympathize with your W as I have a form of ADD and BPD characteristic on a small level. The part where you mention about on focusing what I am losing. The way it started, as I'm confident how it started for most people on here, is we all focus on what we are losing initially, but then?...As we transition, we get at that in between place where we constantly vascilate between going backwards to the past of what and how we knew, and the future of what we look forward to and how we want to be.
I'm really glad that you form connections easily with other people. In a natural at it, its just maintaining it. Im like a mayor. I'm a horse that's great out of the gate, but not much on the long stretch. Maybe it takes more effort on my part, and maybe it takes just a white person in my life, or both? Who knows? Again thanks, and I hope your sich improves for the better, either alone or together. Can anyone tell here that my Love Language is words and physical affection?..lol
I'm really glad that you form connections easily with other people. In a natural at it, its just maintaining it. Im like a mayor. I'm a horse that's great out of the gate, but not much on the long stretch.
No, don't allow your self to think that way. Fix in your mind that you are a good person who deserves to be in a healthy relationship, and if this isn't the one then this could be the one that teaches you how to do that. You won't feel that way right now, because of the noise, but truth is that people with even very debilitating emotional disorders have healthy relationship with neuro-typical partners. The only thing is that it's up to us to rise to the challenge. You have to make your self believe that.
I sometimes, think I might have ADD. I have some markers. I have trouble focusing sometimes, but I do when I need to. Then again I've also had two major head injuries so who knows what got shaken lose up there. Anyway, look, you are doing ok. Just keep going. Things will feel different in time. Also, go and look for positive stories. It's natural to drift towards misery, but it's the inspiring stories that will lift you up.
IHCLACS, if you think you have ADD you should probably make an effort to have it diagnosed. I suppose that depends on the level of your certainty, but if you think you have it it would help you immensely to know for sure. It also opens up doors to resources, and lets you make a plan as to how you want to proceed. Here in DB there is an emphasis on having a plan because the number-one thing that causes fear and anxiety is the uncertainty. Planning takes a lot of the uncertainty out of one's life, reduces the stress, and allows for making more clear-headed decisions. Anyway, in psychology giving a name to one's suffering is to objectify it. When you have a name for what's eating you, it's far easier to deal with it because it's no longer this amorphous blob in your mind. It becomes more predictable and 'predictable' is the opposite of 'uncertain'.
Last edited by Cadet; 04/25/1902:45 PM. Reason: Start a new thread message
MarcPA. I am currently taking Adderal under a Psychiatrist care, even though I was against it for 15 years. The ADD is very mild, the dosage is mild. I only take it for work, and only notice a suble difference.
Its short term memory recall in long sequence, process sequence, and auditory instructions. (Long term memory is outstanding) Some executive management. Some prioritization skills in home life, but not work. Im a visual learner. Mild anxiety is result as well exacerbated from the mild learning disability.. The question is which one fuels which? Also seeing a therapist for characteristics of BPD. I have had auditory, comprehension, memory, and brain mapping battery of tests conducted on 4 occasions over 10 years.
Basically I just need to develop better planning, thought habits, and time management skills in personal life, and just stay consistently sharp at work. Diet, B12, and eating intervals play a role too. Been sleeping on flourhours for at least 3 years now, and believe it or not can function just fine while I take my naps on my lunch break
Please start a new thread and link both of them together. Thanks!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Remember, balance, balance, balance. Your goal should be to not get extreme on anything. 
SAHM's is an updated term. They use to be called "housewives", until they were ridiculed for staying home and raising a family. They were told they weren't happy, b/c nobody could be happy being a housewife! They needed to ditch their H, and find a career b/c they were not living up to their full potential. Go find themselves! Otherwise, they were nothing more than a servant to their H and kids. So, whether intended or not, the marriage and family/home life took a serious hit. It was everywhere on television. The talk shows, the movies, magazines, etc. were all spreading the same propaganda. Families were breaking up left & right. The same message is being bought today. Women were told they could "have it all", which was a lie. Today, women have so 
