R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Hello, I've been reading part of your last thread, very similar history of our husbands, my MIL abandoned my dh and his siblings when they were teens. And here he is doing the same, and the few times I brought up the similarities he acted like it was the most hurtful thing I'd ever said to him. I no longer bring it up as a result, but how can they not see that THEY need to break this cycle? Do they want to destroy their relationship with their kids the way their mum did with them? It is just mystifying I do NOT want my sons to ever end up behaving like their dad, so I am determined to stay married, to get past this MLC of his, to build a better relationship for the future. I wonder sometimes if his fear of being abandoned is so great that he tried to do it first (which is ridiculous because I would never have abandoned him). Sometimes I wonder whether a mother abandoning her kids causes more damage because the mother tends to be the primary attachment figure. It breaks my heart to see parents doing this stuff to their kids You will be ok though, 6 months after my dh left and I'm finally in a better place, and he is too actually.
dillydaf- I am sorry to hear that you are going through the same thing. It does seem mystifying how they cannot see the past repeating itself. I understand that the MLC is so powerful it blocks these things out but it does still amaze me how blind they really are during this. I hope that both of us can stand and save our marriages and hopefully break this cycle. Thank you for your kind support and wishing you all the best.
many MLCers experienced this kind of thing where one parent left and abandoned them MY XH did as well
All we can do for our kids is to provide a strong 1 parent unit, therapy if needed and awareness
We will only know when they hit 40-if the cycle will repeat
funny thing is my XH sister stayed M with no issues that I see, so each person is affected differently they had the same upbringing ,,she was younger and my brother and I both picked MLCers-and Married them and Divorced them and our parents stayed together until death-
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Well my BIL is on his 3rd marriage and SIL is on her 2nd. I thought that dh was the one sibling who escaped the damage, but here we are, 25 years of marriage and 30 years of being together later. Nobody in my family is divorced except for my brother (and I think his ex is bipolar and actually her parents are divorced. This stuff is contagious).
It's funny, I keep going back to the time when we first got together and dh told me all about his mum leaving and how dreadfully she did it, he told me I was the first person he could trust for a long time, and he spent a lot of time telling me all about it. And he's told me over the years as well. And I feel like it's finally caught up with him never having dealt with it. I feel like ds1 hit the age that dh was when his mum started having affairs and stuff and dh started losing it. I never realised until recently how much it affected him. And I have a lot more empathy for dh now, having experienced abandonment myself. It's awful. It's the worst feeling ever. No wonder he feels so traumatised.
Anyway, sorry to hijack, just kind of thinking aloud here. Maybe if they repeat the cycle and they are blind to it, it's because it's too painful to look at the past directly? It is so hard to have any empathy for the MLC spouse but I am really trying.
Anyway, I hope things are going ok. It does get easier, I don't think anyone can stand that level of pain for too long. Keep putting one foot in front of another and working on yourself and your role in the marrige and at least you'll come out of it all a better person. There has to be some benefit out of this utter misery, right?
I am in the process of booking a birthday trip for my kids in June and I need to purchase event tickets now before they sell out. I am not sure what I should do about my husband? I was thinking of telling him I was booking the trip and asking if he would like to come also? If he says no then I could just book it for myself and the children. I don't want it to seem like I am pressuring him to make decisions about the future though. This balancing act is hard. On the one hand, I understand exactly why I should not apply any pressure. On the other hand, life still goes on and certain things in life require advanced decisions. He's still at home but lives an almost parallel life to me. Days can go by without us seeing each other as he doesn't come downstairs in the morning until I have left for work and he often doesn't come home until I am in bed for the night. Thoughts?
Kate, is there a way you can purchase a ticket and use it for someone else later if necessary (or does it have to be purchased in the name of the user)? That might give you the most flexibility and help avoid him feeling pressed or you feeling disappointed if he chooses not to come.
Your situation is a little difficult in that he lives at home, so it makes sense that he would be included in a birthday celebration. Do you normally communicate in person or in some type of writing when you have a business matter?
Either way, I would make it low key, or perhaps make it clear that you are ok with him not coming. "Kids and I are going to XYZ for child A's birthday, shall I book you a ticket?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
OneArt- The ticket can probably be used by another person (not sure). We do normally communicate in person about any business matters though we rarely have a business matter to discuss.
peacetoday- BD was during the holiday season and we did still celebrate the holidays together as a family.
Gordie- I can see my husband being mad either way as well. It seems like he just wants to be mad most of the time. About anything.
I am leaning toward an invite and trying to be as low key as possible about it.
Since your h is still living under the same roof with you, I would suggest that you talk to your h about it. You could say something like this: "h, I am planning to do xyz and would like to know if you are interested in going w/us. If you can let me know by xyz, because I want to purchase the tickets." You will have given him the option to say yes or no.
It doesn't matter what you say or do, he's going to be angry. Right now, he's angry at the world and himself.
Invite him, but keep your expectations at zero.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Do you think it is possible for a person in MLC to successfully navigate their crisis without ever leaving home? Or do you think leaving is a necessary part of their journey?
Some can navigate their crisis while living at home...but the spouse needs to leave them alone as much as possible and allow them to take their journey. The spouse basically has to accept that their other half is now a roommate and not who they expect them to be. I have seen a couple of them stay at home the entire time IRL and they came out the other side. The spouse has to learn to accept from for who they are today and not who they were pre-crisis.
For some, leaving home, filing for divorce, is a necessary part of their journey. It all depends upon their childhood issues and what they need in order to heal themselves.
They are some who have a "mild" crisis and others, such as many of those we see here, are "really in serious crisis mode and act out completely.
It all depends upon the person, personality, coping skills and, of course the childhood issues.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Hi kate11, in my case, XH absolutely had to leave to navigate the full-blown crisis. For him I think leaving was the beginning of his journey (although it didn't seem like it during the time). He had to go to the greener grass, live with OW and try to set up his "better life". Slowly, over years, this so-called amazing person replacing me was a slob, had mental issues, picked fights, etc. and just wanted him to take care of her (I don't think she worked). More importantly, as he realized that she was an incompatible partner, he discovered that his own abandonment issues led him to idealize her. The more he saw that his childhood issues had led him to a giant disaster of a relationship, the more he realized what a mess he was. He then sought therapy. But like Job said, everyone has their own path. For me, I couldn't be there for it.
Details of how to spilt the assets and also his extended family is coming for the weekend. Yep, makes one’s head spin. Did he even list the assets correctly? Or split them fairly?
What did he say about the tickets for June?
Hang in there kate. H is pretty confused and no one is going to be able to talk any sense into him.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
The asset division was enormously detailed. He tried to include all household items right down to our 15 year old sheet sets and second hand gardening tools. He overvalued a number of older household items (I think in an effort to show that he was being extra "generous") but, all in all, the major assets were divvied up relatively fairly. I can see some points that would have to be discussed and possibly altered to some degree but there were no enormous glaring problems.
Child support and custody arrangements haven't been brought up yet though.
He said he would let me know about the June tickets.
About a week ago, my husband gave me the rest of a separation agreement he has been working on. I've looked it over and marked the areas where we need to discuss/make changes. I've also calculated how much I believe I will need in child support. I haven't brought up talking about this, as it is not what I want, but I imagine at some point sooner or later my husband will want to push forward. Whenever that happens is there a DB-approved way to have a separation talk when it comes to asset division, child support, finances and child custody?
We have never had a relationship talk post-BD. Ever. I have adhered fully to the DBing guidelines there. So other than the script I got at BD I know nothing else about what he is thinking. I believe he is most likely having an affair (or has someone waiting in the wings in a current EA) but I have never brought any of this up. I am cordial in the few interactions we have. He mostly avoids me like the plague and I let him to give him space.
I understand there is nothing to be gained by having a giant confrontation so I guess I just stay the course? State what I need in the separation agreement and that is it?
I would if you haven't before any discussion or separation agreement
The MLCer will sweet talk the LBS, lie, cheat and steal
They will put OW in front of the LBS, blood family, their parents and kids
make sure you are protected.. many will want to settle things alone without attorney costs..or online but they cant be trusted at this point no matter how nice they seem
Many attorneys will do a free consult and I apologize..if you have done this already-
My good friend told me spend the money on a good attorney- and she was right because the MLCer will blow all the funds all the accounts with no care about the LBS or the kids-
The ow fuels the spending ad I personally didn't want her to get money that was ours and for our kids-
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Peacetoday- I certainly won't sign any agreement without taking it to my lawyer. Thank you for the advice.
I am mostly wondering how to handle talks/negotiations on the subject if my husband and I are talking directly. I can have it done 100% through attorneys and I will if it becomes necessary. If some of the details can be worked out between us before going to the attorney it would save money and hopefully get us communicating about the future directly. Especially as this concerns our kids!
I think you have seen a lawyer already, if memory serves. So you will have the default position or settlement information at hand. For example where I live everything is 50/50 and spousal support is based on the incomes of each person, the lower getting topped up with a percentage of the higher spouse’s income. The same for retirement funds and pensions. Child support also has preset calculations.
From here some items can be negotiated, some cannot. An attorney is absolutely necessary to learn and understand your’s, your spouse’s, and your kids’ rights.
As for working out some of the details beforehand. Some very good cautions from peacetoday regarding the behaviour the MLCer can and will partake in. You really cannot expect them to keep their word. They change their minds all the time and are driven by emotions which are pretty darn dynamic.
If you two do sit down to talk about a separation - let him talk. Listen to all he has to say. If he has generous offers, say that sounds reasonable. If he doesn’t, don’t try to reason out why it is no good, he won’t respond well to that.
Basically if he comes to you with a really good deal or one you can live with and probably is better than what you would receive in court, then take it to L and get it drawn up. From what I experienced if the MLCer sees this as their idea they will go along with it, if it comes from you, he will fight it.
Do you have a list of things you are really wanting (reasonably) and a list of things you can let go to get more of what you truly want. I mean this as which items are you looking to make better than 50/50 for you and are willing to go less than 50/50. If there are items that he really wants (more immediate income for example) and you could get better child custody arrangements that would be something to consider. Everyone’s lists are different and needs are different, so I’m just mentioning this so you can think about it.
I found it quite interesting how the MLCer sees their life; young and going to live forever, like a teenager. It is surprising what they actually want and what they don’t. If he sits downs and tells you stuff, listen carefully they drop lots of clues.
As for DB principles, which I love that you are following, keep your focus on your needs and your kids. Even if H is making a terrible blunder (which he already has, you are an awesome person) he isn’t going to listen to you. Stay kind and cordial and remain calm. If things get nasty and ugly, just use the lawyer.
With H living at home I am thinking he will sit down and want to discuss things sooner rather than later.
Best of luck. Stay strong.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi Kate - I had a live-in for years. It was a long slog. In hindsight I wish he had left earlier. I know that may sound cold and not compassionate but the longer he stayed the more stuck he seemed. It was hard to watch.
Mine too had a traumatic childhood and was clearly stunted emotionally. He struggled with aging/death and said all the typical MLC stuff: he needed to find himself, be free, etc. He also thought every 20 year old wanted him and that was cringe worthy to watch. His childhood was much more traumatic than I ever knew.
He projected his unhappiness on to me. It took me too long to see that. Mine did not spew either. But he turned into a teen who would throw his dishes into the trash if I asked him to wash them. He was full on rebellious. It was something to behold.
This is in motion for him and no one can stop it. It will take him years to grow up; like watching a teen. I have a 15 year old now and my ex overlapped so much with the same behaviors when he lived here.
Protect your finances. This one you will not like, but I wish I had done it. Meet with a few lawyers for free consults to learn what you are entitled to in your state. Had I divorced mine years ago, I would have had more financial support. I Sri ll received a lot because I was just building my career after staying home but I now know now he had seen a lawyer and was encouraging me to re-build my career and waited so he could pay less support. They are often sneaky and not trustworthy. It is a chess game. See some lawyers. It may make sense to protect yourself now and you can still work on the marriage under this protection. If you are up for a promotion and he makes more, this will mean less support for you.
I am here to tell you, your kids can be okay through all this. Hug them, spend lots of time with them and help them grow up to meet their emotional benchmarks.
Know there is nothing you can do to fix this for him. You did not cause it and you cannot remedy it.
Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13 BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room" 8/15: H back to MBR 10/15: H back in dorm room 1/18: H files, now divorced
It's amazing how different divorce is in different states. In my state there is no preset calculation for spousal support/alimony though there is one for child support. Also, divorce is not necessarily linked to child custody and asset division. They are separate. The only requirement for a divorce is that both parties live apart for 1 year + 1 day. After that one party can file for divorce. As long as you have been separated at least a year and your paperwork is correctly processed through the judicial system, you can get your divorce. And you get the divorce whether or not you and your spouse have resolved any of the other issues arising from your separation, such as custody, spousal and child support, or distribution of property. I just wanted to post this so that anyone who is reading might know that divorce is very different state to state and that what is posted here for one person may not work for someone in another state. Also, no lawyers where I live do free consults. I just want other readers so be aware that this may or may not be available where you live. This is not to disparage the great advice from the vets but just as a PSA.
My husband is not looking for much in the way of child custody. He is asking for every other weekend and 2 weeks in the summer plus a few days at the holidays. Less than 90 overnights. (And yes my heart is breaking for my children who love their father so much). He wants me to buy him out of the house by paying his portion of the house equity from our investment accounts. Essentially a trade of house equity for investment account cash. Child support using the formula our state uses. He's very impersonal about all of it.
yes the MLcer is very detached from the family and kids
some get more so as time goes on
the children usually get used to it and adjust quickly as long as one parent (you) is still intact and available My kids now almost 18 and 24 seem very well adjusted and have not seen dad since 2009
you are doing great and having the L in place will help with future direction id it goes to that
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Interesting information on the rules of divorce where you live. You are correct, these rules are different depending on your location.
It sounds like separating and splitting assets is more of its own process and not tied to the legal requirements to obtain a divorce, so the is no waiting period of a year plus a day for any agreement to become binding. This is similar to my rules.
I know you are considering his proposal of custody and asset division - good for you. It is important to ensure your’s and your kids’ financial support, and well being.
The MLC spouse is very indifferent to kids, family, friends, and so on. I believe somewhere buried within them their past feelings still reside and will take a while to resurface. For the moment, and a long while, he is going to feel indifferent and behave similarly.
I find his impersonal proposal interesting. I wonder what your L will think of it.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You might look at other states' formulas for spousal support to get an idea of what's reasonable.
AS for buying him out of the house - some cautions for you. First of all - do not do that if you are not absolutely sure you will be able to pay for the house going forward.When you buy someone out of the housing equity you usually have to pay them half of the difference between the mortgage and the current value. This is actually unfair because it doesn't take into account selling costs, so if you were to have to sell the house a year later, you end up paying all the selling costs and getting less for your half than he did. Example: House worth $200k with a $100 k mortgage. You pay him $50k for his half of the equity, then quickly find you can't afford the house and have to sell it. You sell the house for $200k but have to pay 6% to the realtors and say $3k to fix it up for selling. So you only get $200k minus $100k mortgage balance minus $50k you paid to ex minus $12k to realtors minus $3k to fix up for sale = $35k. So he got $50k but you only got $35k. Even worse that you are "buying" it from him at the top of the market and the value might decline before you have to sell it. The worst case scenario is buying the WAS out of the house, then finding you can't keep up the payments and losing the house to bankruptcy.
Now, if you plan to live in that house for 20 years and you can easily afford it, great There's less disruption for you and your kids, and if you love your home and neighborhood, great. BUT if you really are not going to be able to afford to maintain this house and might be forced to sell in the next few years, you're better off to agree to sell it now, split the proceeds and buy a new less expensive home that you can really afford.
Look carefully at ALL the costs of home ownership, including insurance, property taxes, repairs, new roof, gardening expenses etc. before making a decision about keeping this house.
After all the stops and starts it looks like my husband is going to move out June 15th. He has rented his own place (it's 30 minutes away from our current home in another town And it kind of a dump. It looks like the kind of place you rent in college with a bunch of friends because you have no money. I think this college age may be the period in his life my husband is trying to relive). Our separation agreement is with the lawyers and likely nearing completion. He wants to tell the kids June 1st. I told him he should draft out what he wants to say to the kids so that we can look it over together, in advance. He then let me know that he doesn't like to talk to me about our separation because I have done nothing to make this process easier for him. I did my best to remain calm and I reminded him that I did not want this and it was not my responsibility to make this easy for him. He walked away then.
I think, in many ways, it will be healthier for me to have him out of the house. It has been an enormously stressful 6 months living under the same roof while he goes off and does whatever he wants whenever he wants. Some distance will likely be good for me. After all, I am a complete person, with or without him.
I am still sick with thoughts of telling the kids. This has been my primary concern from the beginning. The devastation this will bring about for them. And my husband is completely nonchalant about it. He believes they will adjust within a month. Right now I am trying to gather my courage to be the Mom my kids need through all of this.
Hi Kate. Sorry to hear about your sitch but I can tell you from experience, time and space does help. I can’t remember how old your kids are but mine are 11. They have adjusted reasonably well to the new normal. Today I asked my daughter if there were good things about having two homes and she was able to list some off. On one level, that kinda hurt but on another, I was happy to hear she is feeling okay. She says my home is still her home in her heart but she is fine to spend time with her dad and is having fun decorating her second bedroom. My son probably isn’t quite as okay as she is (he’s his mama’s boy) but is still doing relatively well. The one piece of advice I can give you is to be very careful with how you present to them. They will look to you for your reaction. They love you and want to make sure you are okay. If you look okay, they will take the news easier. If you find yourself getting emotional, just make sure you follow it up with a talk about how you are sad, of course, but that you are fine and that you want them to love their dad and to spend time with him.
I know how tough this is Kate. I hated all of this right from the beginning. And my H wanted 50/50 custody which felt like another slap to the face as he had spent the last four years pretty much ignoring them too. But...I have to tell you, I am not hating the time away from them. I get to have days where I sleep in and don’t have to worry about making lunches or driving to various appointments. I get time to myself and also get to spend time with friends and, lately, with a guy who makes me feel like a woman again...not just a “mom”. And when I do see them, they get a rested, happy mom which is more than what they had before.
There is life after divorce, I promise you. Do I still wish it hadn’t happened and that my H and I had been able to work through our challenges. Of course...I always wanted an intact family for our kids. But, truth be told, I have been pretty miserable the last few years living with his ghost (he had emotionally checked out of our relationship years ago) and am finally happy again. You will get there too. (((HUGS)))
I can tell you it was soooo much easier as soon as XH left the house The energy changed Yes we missed him, but it just felt so much better having the period over of walking on eggshells and feeling hurt every night he came in late
MY kids them 5 and 11 adjusted well the 5 year old said he did not care and my 11 year old struggled more with letting him go but I become more connected to her and we would talk every night well she would talk and I would listen...not say much
I sense you will be ok you sound very grounded and wise
As for your H, I would not believe much of what he says and it was not our job to make them feel better about their choice to leave the family- and in reality nothing you could say would take away the way deep inside he must feel about himself-
you are doing great and it will get better- The hardest part is over-
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I do NOT want my sons to ever end up behaving like their dad, so I am determined to stay married, to get past this MLC of his, to build a better relationship for the future. I wonder sometimes if his fear of being abandoned is so great that he tried to do it first (which is ridiculous because I would never have abandoned him). Sometimes I wonder whether a mother abandoning her kids causes more damage because the mother tends to be the primary attachment figure. It breaks my heart to see parents doing this stuff to their kids 
