Look man I get it you are done. I’m actually in agreement with you that I don’t see her. turning things around. I really just question how you going about communicating this to her.
To me it’s simple “if you’re not interested in moving towards an intimate husband and wife relationship on moving on” Then file for divorce.
Why move her stuff out, she’s not wayward?
You guys seem to get along pretty well be amicable for the children and move on.
So yesterday's melee did lead to an R talk last night. Unfortunately, I have found that these outbursts seem the only way that W will talk reasonably without too much defense and hyperbole. Even still there is some of that. She is not a verbal communicator and this has been IMO the root of most of our problems.
W said she hadn't felt anything in a very long time. So without giving away any DB secrets, I went on to explain how I had been trying to improve as well as make deposits in, what I believe, to be her LL bucket. W took the LL test 5 years ago and could never answer the questions. I had to coach some out of her and the best we could come up with was quality time. As well as other improvements. She acknowledged these things and that I had taken that initiative and that it wasn't "happening to her". She said she didn't really notice, but now that I mention...
I also told her that Sun. when she said that she wasn't a "trier". That I had seen her try and I took it to mean that she choose not to try for me. That I wasn't worth trying for. W seemed taken back. She apologized.
We rehashed the entire R and as expected when I got to the A and it's ensuing damage, W got uncomfortable and I tried to focus on the effect it had on me and my ability to be a great H., Of course, W had no problems pointing out my past transgressions without any problem, it's her past that is supposed to be forgotten.
In usual form, this is all my problem to solve. I explain that love was a choice and that all the experts believed this. That the feelings often came after the decision was made. Low and behold, my W is different. She went on to say that there was a time when she really tried and it didn't work. I asked, "when was this?" After I caught her still in the EA and she really called it off and we were on our 3rd. MC. I replied, "Oh before you had restored my trust and I had no idea if you were lying again or not, that's when you were actually trying?". W didn't like that little perspective. I guess I'm supposed to forget when she was living and know when she is not. Puts me in a bit of a pickle.
This put an end to the R talk. I will add that I asked her where she saw this thing going. After saying that she didn't walk around thinking about it all the time (hyperbole). She said that she just took it day by day and tried not to have a miserable life.
So, this morning I didn't make the french press coffee. I woke at 4 am and tried to catch a few extra winks. W made coffee and told me she was leaving for work. This woman is so lacking self-awareness and unable to express herself that I'm not sure that she is really capable of a healthy relationship.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So, quick update: W has doubled down on courtesy and respect. She asks me before granting permission to D16. Something she has avoided in an effort to enable the child's every whim. She has taken more initiative to plan dinners, something she has tended to leave to me.
One thing that I realized after our R talk last week was that when I explained that I had felt that W was open to me initiating sex, she asked how so? I gave her examples and she listened. W never challenged these examples of her behavior. She seemed curious and almost dumbfounded. I told her that even though she had said, long ago, that she didn't want to have sex, that she seemed to be moving closer and that after deducting that she would never initiate, I decided to take a chance. W listened and never became defensive. Still so self-unaware.
Anyway, life continues like friendly platonic co-parenting friends. I think the threat of losing me may have gotten her attention.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Anyway, life continues like friendly platonic co-parenting friends. I think the threat of losing me may have gotten her attention.
I think you really need to temper your expectations right now. I think you have a tendency to view things as progress only to be disappointed later. I think your W is perfectly fine with keeping you in the FS until it doesn't work for her anymore.
I think you really need to temper your expectations right now. I think you have a tendency to view things as progress only to be disappointed later. I think your W is perfectly fine with keeping you in the FS until it doesn't work for her anymore.
So, what are my expectations? And what do I do with that information? I try stuff. I evaluate. As far as W being fine keeping me in the FZ? I tend to agree.
So LH19, what would you suggest if this is the case?
I also know that women are fluid, feeling, creatures and feelings change. There have been times when I felt waiting was the best practice. So I waited. Other times I feel like blowing the whole thing up. I try to be careful not to do it out of "reaction". But I am very well aware of the risk. I refuse to be controlled by her inaction. So when faced with "risk it all" or "walk away". I'm fine taking a risk. In my mind, I have nothing to lose. Thanks for your input.
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Well, keep shaking the tree then RR. Let see if you get some apples.
Keep moving forward my friend, you don´t eat crumbs. Moving with patience, but moving forward.
Neffer, That's exactly what I plan to do. What else could I do? You're right. I don't eat crumbs.
I don't claim to have figured this out. Not in the least. But I do believe that if more JBS tool a stronger stance in their R that would see movement. As always thanks for your support.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I think you really need to temper your expectations right now. I think you have a tendency to view things as progress only to be disappointed later. I think your W is perfectly fine with keeping you in the FS until it doesn't work for her anymore.
So, what are my expectations? And what do I do with that information? I try stuff. I evaluate. As far as W being fine keeping me in the FZ? I tend to agree.
So LH19, what would you suggest if this is the case?
Your'e in a tough spot right now. I don't think your W will change her stance anytime soon if ever living in the same house together. I think you have to ask yourself can I live the way I am living right now (BTW a lot of middle age people live this way) for the rest of my life? If the answer is no then you should move on. I would imagine with trust issues it would be a brutal feeling every time something seemed off.
After studying theses sitches for almost four years, time and space are the only thing that turns these things around long-term.
RR, I think your sitch is much more than a FZ sitch. I think she is waiting you out. Usually Ws that do this are expecting one of two things:
1) You to eventually get fed up and to move on. 2) For you to get frustrated and show your true colors. Remember, they don't trust the changes that we make.
You are a year and a half in. In my sitch my MR turned around in 3 1/2 months. There is no set time for these things, every sitch is different. You could keep the status quo for the next 2 years or more before she comes around.
So really, what it boils down to is, how patient can you be?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I really wish I could figure out how to credit posters in the quotes.
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Your'e in a tough spot right now. I don't think your W will change her stance anytime soon if ever living in the same house together. I think you have to ask yourself can I live the way I am living right now (BTW a lot of middle age people live this way) for the rest of my life? If the answer is no then you should move on. I would imagine with trust issues it would be a brutal feeling every time something seemed off.
After studying theses sitches for almost four years, time and space are the only thing that turns these things around long-term.
All these things are true. In fact, they are true for most every LBS on here. We all have choices. Time and space are the ubiquitous factor in everyone's sitch.
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RR, I think your sitch is much more than a FZ sitch. I think she is waiting you out. Usually Ws that do this are expecting one of two things:
1) You to eventually get fed up and to move on. 2) For you to get frustrated and show your true colors. Remember, they don't trust the changes that we make.
You are a year and a half in. In my sitch my MR turned around in 3 1/2 months. There is no set time for these things, every sitch is different. You could keep the status quo for the next 2 years or more before she comes around.
So really, what it boils down to is, how patient can you be?
I can't argue with this either. As for waiting me out? 1) I've asked her this. She said she is not consciously doing this. Who knows? She is just taking it day by day. (her words) 2) She is improving almost every other facet in the relationship. She even responds to constructive comments. Something she has fought in the past because it would jeopardize her newfound sense of self. My changes have been going on for over 1.5 years. My awakening was Aug. 2014. They were amplified last Summer upon BD #2. I brought up many of these changes during our last R talk and she agreed that the changes have happened. Her comment was that she was in so much pain before and feelings had not returned. She said that prior to 2014, that she believed that I hated her. I pointed out that I had walked out on relationships for much less in my life and the fact that I stayed and worked and waited, that that should be a testament that I did, in fact, love her. She listened.
Remember guys I know her better than most anyone. I can usually tell how she will probably respond in most circumstances. Meaning she is predictable. If she had a plan she wouldn't be making it comfortable for me. She would push me out.
I honestly think she is waiting for something to happen to her. What? I don't think she knows.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR, I went back to your first post and came across this post from Accuray who IMO understands this dynamic better then any poster. There is some good stuff in there:
Hi RR17,
Your situation bears many similarities to mine. My exW had a string of EA's and I eventually caught her in the last one. After that I got the ILYBINILWY, BD, set on divorce, etc. etc. I was able to DB and we reconciled and had another three years together at which point, like you, I suspected something was up, caught her at it again with a new coworker and got divorced.
You and others have come here lately referring to "The 180" and talking about it as if it means walking away from their spouse and giving them space. From my read of MWD's books, "180" refers to evaluating your spouse's complaints about you, deciding which you want to remedy and then addressing them -- i.e. if you used to be sloppy be neat. Not super important but I'm not sure where this new interpretation is coming from because people now seem to think it means "don't pursue".
Regarding your situations, no radar is as fine-tuned as that of a cheated-on spouse, so I would say if your radar is telling you something is up, it probably is.
Does it matter though in the context that she wants to separate and/or wants out? If another person is involved or not, the facts of your relationship are the same.
I think the prescription is the same no matter what: don't pursue her, address your own issues (180), get a life, and act as if you're fine.
In the case of my exW, her needs were not being met in our marriage -- it was a classic "Five Love Languages" challenge where we were sending and receiving on different channels and weren't aware of it. Unfortunately, she chose not to voice any complaints or articulate any desires, perhaps in the interest of avoiding conflict. As a result, her resentments built to the point that she sought an EA and felt justified in doing so. I think at that point she was pretty checked out.
When we then reconciled, I think it was the path of least resistance, or something she felt she was doing for the benefit of the kids and the family and her EA had ended. I don't believe she was committed to the M at that point, so really it was just a stay of execution versus a real reconciliation.
I consider that to be a blessing for me, because I got three good years to be the best H I could be, to "bring it", and to leave the marriage with no regrets about my behavior or my contribution to it, I was able to leave with a great degree of peace. Hopefully you've had the same experience since your W's last EA.
If she's walked several times before and wants to walk again, chances are these are her issues that she doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and she doesn't believe in her heart that she can navigate back to "happy" with you.
As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value 2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone 3) She's willing to work to win you
Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to comingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.
That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.
My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.
