The bomb woke me up, but she still won't talk

[ovrrnbw]

What do you want to happen with her ultimately? A good MR?

You have two options. One, tell her you know and that you aren't going to live like this. She is free to leave the home to go do what she wants and you will move on.

Two, tell her you read something about overcoming tough situations and it upset you. Be brief and allow this to deflect your earlier emotions that she detected. A lot can change in 10 years.

I hope R2C comes along with some advice.

[Davide]

Man, that is rough just to read, let alone to live through. I'm sending a virtual hug.

It really comes down to what your boundaries are. Are you willing to live as a Plan B and hope that she changes her mind again? It's a cliche here but love is a choice and an action. Your W is choosing OM and acting accordingly. You can choose to keep loving her and spending your emotional energy on her, or you can choose to walk away. I can't tell you what the right choice is. I will say that I have learned that we only have a short time here and you can spend your emotional energy and love on someone who isn't worth it - someone who is an emotional leach or someone who can't or won't reciprocate. Realizing that I was free to spend my emotional energy elsewhere was a breakthrough for me, and really helped me move forward.

[TBSakaJ9]

After my XW moved out of our house and we separated she ran into one of my friends at a local restaurant and made some comment to him that she did me a favor by Ding me now versus in 10 years.

Knowing what I know now if that is what she truly believed then I am grateful. It [censored] no doubt but you don't want to waste your time in that situation. Being on the other side I am glad my XW did what she did.

It is coming up on 2 years for me since she moved out and while she runs hot and cold she is very much still in her fog or whatever you want to call it.

[SoTorn]

That really [censored]. But more the reason to keep the solid DB up. I will never trust my WW again. Because of that I am expecting D and will initiate if I have to. I will not allow myself to be hurt like that again.

[lusa]

Thank you so much everyone for all your considered replies, i feel honored to have had so much contribution on my thread. This really is a wonderfully powerful place, the fact that strangers are giving their loving advice to each other in such time of desperate need really strengthens my faith in humanity.


To update my sitch:

I've been continuing to snoop gather intel and found further info. This time it is that the EA started at least 12 months pre-DB, so now its been 2 or 3 years. This along with the note i found promising to "restart the A in 10 years when they'll be less upset" has finally pushed me somewhere I haven't been before.

I've realized why BD didn't make sense and how she successfully got me to take the fall for her EA. Telling everyone I had to move out because of my behavior when in fact our R had been deteriorating for so long with no chance to fix it due to her choice and action to continue the EA.

I now for the first time have more understanding of what happened. I feel less guilty and more hurt. I've found something worse than the deceit and it's the long-term deceit. I've been shocked again, this time into properly having to make sure I am ok and will be 100% ok with or without her at any point in my future.

After a few days of spinning I settled down and the resignation that I was completely alone came over me. After sitting with that realization it eventually became warming, dependable and secure. I don't know if it can be called dropping the rope yet but the shift I've experienced has been really positive and empowering. I have no trust in my W and no security in my M but I can trust and depend on ME. My 180's that were started with the sole focus on winning her back, have now become permanent and are now just for ME too.

So is the glass half empty or half full? What could be seen as a hopeless situation, especially with my new intel can easily be seen the other way.

I found out her last goodbye to OM was actually sent in November and since then she has been NC. Apart from the huge elephant in the room, which is not one word said about her A, our M or R, her actions and other words say she is trying and committed. Everything else in our relationship is better than it's been for a long-time prior to DB. We are cooperating and enjoying each others support and company well in all areas from parenting to cooking to work projects. She calls me my pet name most of the time, hugs me before work, leans on me in bed, and shows no disrespect. Things are certainly on the right trajectory.

However she has deceived me for a long time, made a horrible last commitment to OM, continues to keep her silence on everything, shows no guilt or remorse. I believe she is currently scared of R talk / MC and will avoid it due to her EA and her current feelings for OM. She's going through withdrawals, she doesn't know what I know and I will keep it that way so I can judge if she's truthful if she ever claims to come completely clean.

I have no idea what will happen but I am no longer dependent on the outcome. Over the last 13 months I've learnt to have more patience than I thought possible. R2C's signature "What is best for my kids is best for me" stays at the front of my mind and makes it easy for me to know what to do at the moment. I hope this new confidence is permanent and will allow me to watch my WW's future actions from this more detached, amused view-point rather than the old distraught place.

I'm aware of the huge amount of work we both need to do for a successful R and currently doubtful that she will ever make it through this long list.

Continue NC with OM
Initiate R Talk
Want/Agree to R
Attend MC (for the right reasons)
Tell the truth about her EA
Feel true remorse
Lose her resentment
Send permanent end message to OM
Offer a transparency plan

Even if she did all this then we'd be only starting to have to face the very hard work of piecing. So I don't hold out much hope for our M, the difference is I'm not going to run away into some sort of A with an OW. For everyone's sake I will stand and work through whatever is in front of me instead.

[lusa]

An interesting update, well for me at least.

I fixed something for an older relative of hers, In the end I had to contact the relative because she forgot. It then led to me stating in the discussion something along the lines of shes not the same as she used to be and has become more selfish, I also brought up the fact she doesn't mention her "simple faith" or moral integrity anymore. She took great offense to this, and had that face of thunder that in the old days would have led to a huge argument and days of bad feeling.

We then ate a meal she'd cooked together which wasn't very comfortable and then she brought up the subject of money again. Basically asking me to put more in the joint pot so she can put more in a pension and we can get a bigger house etc.

I have been thinking about this for a long time and so finally said that I can't make decisions on these sort of things when we haven't discussed reconciling and she hasn't committed to doing what she can to make things work.
She responded with something along the lines of we are getting on much better so I reiterated that the verbal commitment from her and our joint decision to R will have to come before any other discussions on our future. She made it clear she understood so I am really pleased I finally got this point said after all this time.

I've been re-reading Sandi's threads and I am seeing that she would be happy to slide under the door, rug sweep and pick up from where we left off. I'm so pleased I have become aware enough to not let this happen. I require commitment and honesty from my wife and I'm not ashamed to hold out for both or eventually choose to D if they are not forthcoming.

Anyway what would normally have resulted in arguing and days of bad feeling was quickly resolved as she instigated creative time with both of us and the kids painting and story telling, and then started calling me by my pet name and making it into a picture. It was a lovely hour for us all and I was surprised, I thought at a minimum the evening would have been shot down.

Later on she asked if I minded if she watched a tv program in the bedroom with D11, I said of course not, when have i ever got pouty about things like that. I want you to be happy...................and then couldn't help murmuring "it's so damn important to you!" We then had a good laugh as she jokingly told me I always spoil things by not shutting up in time.

I feel I just successfully stood my ground and gained a little bit more respect from her. The truth is I don't know if i can fully commit to R with her, there hasn't been much need to think about it when she has hurt me so badly, refused to talk about it and showed me no commitment or reasons to trust her.

I know I can choose to trust her everyday even though many parts of me are shouting "no"
I know i can choose to love her and act accordingly every day because i now know from this board that love is a daily choice and action.

[sandi2]

I know I am behind, so I may touch on things that have already been discussed.

Now I'm back in the MBR we have been going to bed early together and watching tv, she has been very slowly moving closer to me, culminating in her initiating sex the other night.

This has happened exactly 300 days since BD but still with no R talk. I'm sure her EA is over and it seems that she has stopped all disrespectful and rebellious behavior. I know she still has a lot of internal work to do regarding her resentment towards me but this is definitely going in the right direction.

You know, Lusa, when we say no R talk, we don't mean to imply that you are to NEVER speak of the relationship again. We stress "no R talk" so much, I guess people think it is off the table even if they are trying to reconcile. However, I think your problem here is that you don't know where the MR stands. Like some other board members, you are stuck in limbo b/c you don't feel like it is really a reconciliation, but you are in the MBR and having sex.....and she's being nicer.

If you have waited on your W to bring up the things you feel need to be discussed.......she may NEVER go there. Why? B/c most WW's don't desire to talk about their betraying, lying, deceitful, sneaky, unfaithful, backstabbing, selfish, disrespectful, rebellious, resentful.........(do I need to go on?)..........wayward behavior. She doesn't have a problem talking about how you made mistakes in the past, but she doesn't want to have her's pointed out. I'm just saying that after nearly a year, and you moved successfully into the MBR.........and having sex.........don't you feel there has been some point in time that the elephant in the room should have been addressed? Maybe I haven't read far enough yet, so have you told her what you would need in order to really reconcile? If not, then IMHO, it's as if you are hanging suspended between heaven and hell. IDK......it's just me wondering if that is okay with you. I was asked to give my thoughts on another similar sitch, and afterwards, I have decided that person had rather keep things suspended rather than follow the suggestions given. I also saw someone who was set in their ways for many years, and just between us......I felt like that was the problem for not following the advice. Anyway......I don't want to see this MR stay in the condition until both people are too set in their ways to change.

Another reason I believe it is important to know where the relationships stands at the point, is so you will know whether or not to continue following the 37 rules. Once the couple reconciles and is piecing the M back together, the 37 rules are put aside. I have a thread (with BluWave contributing) to those things to follow during Piecing. But currently, you can't really define your MR as in Piecing, can you? Has your WW told you she no longer wants to end the M, or get a D or whatever she may have originally said?

No wonder my WW doesn't want to talk or consider R, preferring to just rug-sweep and pretend.
It is because she is still deeply in love with OM, and unfortunately as this is her ex H, with shared history I don't think she's ever going to get over it.

She writes notes before talking to him, I've seen a few before and posted them here. Unfortunately I snooped yesterday and found another note, they are always around cutting off contact, and this is in response to cutting off contact.

This is not just another man. it's her XH. Do they have children together? You have children with her, and she's willing to wait till they leave home to reunite with her XH? That's not love, that's a fantasy! If she went back to him, she'd want you as her OM.

I have been thinking about this for a long time and so finally said that I can't make decisions on these sort of things when we haven't discussed reconciling and she hasn't committed to doing what she can to make things work.
She responded with something along the lines of we are getting on much better so I reiterated that the verbal commitment from her and our joint decision to R will have to come before any other discussions on our future. She made it clear she understood so I am really pleased I finally got this point said after all this time.

Great! But you can't leave it there. Has she made a verbal commitment? If so, hold her to it by requiring that both of you attend therapy for couples dealing with emotional affair with previous spouses. I mean, I'm sure other things will be addressed, but XH is the ELEPHANT.

I've been re-reading Sandi's threads and I am seeing that she would be happy to slide under the door, rug sweep and pick up from where we left off. I'm so pleased I have become aware enough to not let this happen. I require commitment and honesty from my wife and I'm not ashamed to hold out for both or eventually choose to D if they are not forthcoming.

I'm so happy those threads have helped you. I do want to look back at list you made.

I'm aware of the huge amount of work we both need to do for a successful R and currently doubtful that she will ever make it through this long list.

Continue NC with OM - Absolutely, but there needs to be a "how-to plan"......like transparency.
Initiate R Talk - I addressed this earlier in the post. You may go the rest of your life, if you wait for her to address the elephant in the room. You've been living a lie, b/c you have not addressed her affair and have allowed her to rug sweep.
Want/Agree to R - I thought you said she had committed? Either she is in or out.....can't have it both ways.
Attend MC (for the right reasons) - That is a requirement you should make to staying in the MR.
Tell the truth about her EA - I don't think she will, without either the MC forcing the issue or you reveal you know the truth.
Feel true remorse - That is her inner work. You can require an apology from her. You can require her to show respect. You cannot require that she has particular feelings. It's kind of like inner spiritual work she has to do.
Lose her resentment - You can require that she not demonstrate resentment in how she talks/actions/attitude, which follows alongside of showing respect. You can't require her not to feel resentment. Again, those are feelings that she will need to work out. Hopefully, MC can help with it.
Send permanent end message to OM - That should have already been a requirement issued by you. Has your knowledge of her EA always been a secret?
Offer a transparency plan - Well, I would say "require" it. She has to be accountable, make atonement....if you will. It's not right for her to just expect you to trust her when she has proven she is untrustworthy.

So actually, most of this is work she will have to do. Your part is enforcing those things that aren't considered as her feelings. This is your life. You have a say about it. Why would keep closed lip about her cheating and her pretending everything was simply honky-dory? She blamed everything on YOU. Isn't that why you were left......b/c you were under the assumption you were the problem? To this day, you have not opened your mouth about the real issue....which was her EA? I'm not suggesting you did not have things to change about yourself, but the TRUTH behind the split, was b/c of her emotional connection to her XH. I'm telling you as a former WW, if you wait around for her to voluntarily confess it was not you, but rather b/c she was having an EA with her XH, you may never see the day.
The WW will blame the H as long as she can get away with it. So far, you are the reason she's getting away with it.

Those are my thoughts, FWIW. If you decide to address the EA, I'm sure the board can help you put together a plan.

[lusa]

You know, Lusa, when we say no R talk, we don't mean to imply that you are to NEVER speak of the relationship again. We stress "no R talk" so much, I guess people think it is off the table even if they are trying to reconcile. However, I think your problem here is that you don't know where the MR stands. Like some other board members, you are stuck in limbo b/c you don't feel like it is really a reconciliation, but you are in the MBR and having sex.....and she's being nicer.

I have followed the rules really well and the no R talk in particular has been really helpful up until the point where I should have realised it was time to bring it up. If she’d have made any reference to where the MR stands I would have taken it as my opening to have the R talk, but she just kept quiet.

If you have waited on your W to bring up the things you feel need to be discussed.......she may NEVER go there. Why? B/c most WW's don't desire to talk about their betraying, lying, deceitful, sneaky, unfaithful, backstabbing, selfish, disrespectful, rebellious, resentful.........(do I need to go on?)..........wayward behavior. She doesn't have a problem talking about how you made mistakes in the past, but she doesn't want to have her's pointed out. I'm just saying that after nearly a year, and you moved successfully into the MBR.........and having sex.........don't you feel there has been some point in time that the elephant in the room should have been addressed?

I thought that after all she had done and how we were getting on that she would eventually want to bring this up so we can move on. I understand now that this isn’t going to happen and why. I’m sick of living in Limbo and obviously need to address the elephant in the room. I am ashamed I haven’t brought this up before but was scared of doing it in the wrong way, I could really do with some advice on how to approach it.

Maybe I haven't read far enough yet, so have you told her what you would need in order to really reconcile? If not, then IMHO, it's as if you are hanging suspended between heaven and hell. IDK......it's just me wondering if that is okay with you.

I haven’t told her what I will need to really reconcile, I do feel that I am hanging suspended between heaven and hell and no it is definitely not ok with me to stay like this.

I was asked to give my thoughts on another similar sitch, and afterwards, I have decided that person had rather keep things suspended rather than follow the suggestions given. I also saw someone who was set in their ways for many years, and just between us......I felt like that was the problem for not following the advice. Anyway......I don't want to see this MR stay in the condition until both people are too set in their ways to change.

Thank you for your concern, I can see the danger of this happening and I am ready to do whatever it takes to stop it. I will not be like the person who would rather keep things suspended than follow the suggestions or stay set in my ways rather than change things. I will be scared but I know I will just have to do it scared.

Another reason I believe it is important to know where the relationships stands at the point, is so you will know whether or not to continue following the 37 rules. Once the couple reconciles and is piecing the M back together, the 37 rules are put aside. I have a thread (with BluWave contributing) to those things to follow during Piecing. But currently, you can't really define your MR as in Piecing, can you? Has your WW told you she no longer wants to end the M, or get a D or whatever she may have originally said?

I have read that very interesting thread, thank you to you and BluWave. It’s quite an eye opener to see that our successful joint commitment to R will only lead to the long difficult work of piecing. I can’t define my MR as in piecing as we haven’t discussed R, I haven’t given her my stipulations and she hasn’t verbally gone back on any of the things she has said at BD and since. Although her actions and behaviour look like she wants to R and has changed her mind on these things she hasn’t actually told me anything.

No wonder my WW doesn't want to talk or consider R, preferring to just rug-sweep and pretend.
It is because she is still deeply in love with OM, and unfortunately as this is her ex H, with shared history I don't think she's ever going to get over it.
She writes notes before talking to him, I've seen a few before and posted them here. Unfortunately, I snooped yesterday and found another note, they are always around cutting off contact, and this is in response to cutting off contact.

This is not just another man. it's her XH. Do they have children together? You have children with her, and she's willing to wait till they leave home to reunite with her XH? That's not love, that's a fantasy! If she went back to him, she'd want you as her OM.

They married about 20 years ago. They had no children and the marriage only lasted a couple of years, due to him having multiple A’s treating her very badly including violence and in the end being admitted to a psyche unit for serious mental difficulties, I think schizophrenia. He then abandoned her and she filed for D on that basis. He went back to his country and still lives over 5,000 miles away from us.

I met her the week her D was finalised, and we have been together 17 years with 2 beautiful children. I believe from what I’ve read that her fantasy is now to reunite with him when the kids have left. She has been living this fantasy in her EA for the last 3 years with him and is now dealing with withdrawals due to her recent decision to temporary cut off contact.

I have been thinking about this for a long time and so finally said that I can't make decisions on these sort of things when we haven't discussed reconciling and she hasn't committed to doing what she can to make things work.
She responded with something along the lines of we are getting on much better so I reiterated that the verbal commitment from her and our joint decision to R will have to come before any other discussions on our future. She made it clear she understood so I am really pleased I finally got this point said after all this time.

Great! But you can't leave it there. Has she made a verbal commitment? If so, hold her to it by requiring that both of you attend therapy for couples dealing with emotional affair with previous spouses. I mean, I'm sure other things will be addressed, but XH is the ELEPHANT.

I am ready to request her verbal commitment and then explain it what it will entail. I am just not sure how to say it, what to say if she refuses etc. One way or another this huge elephant needs addressing once and for all regardless of the consequences.

So actually, most of this is work she will have to do. Your part is enforcing those things that aren't considered as her feelings. This is your life. You have a say about it. Why would keep closed lip about her cheating and her pretending everything was simply honky-dory? She blamed everything on YOU. Isn't that why you were left......b/c you were under the assumption you were the problem? To this day, have you not opened your mouth about the real issue....which was her EA? I'm not suggesting you did not have things to change about yourself, but the TRUTH behind the split, was b/c of her emotional connection to her XH. I'm telling you as a former WW, if you wait around for her to voluntarily confess it was not you, but rather b/c she was having an EA with her XH, you may never see the day.
The WW will blame the H as long as she can get away with it. So far, you are the reason she's getting away with it.

This is exactly what I needed to hear, thank you. I have no excuses except fear and not knowing where our MR stands. I realise I could be waiting forever and instead need to take action now.
I first found out about her EA a year ago shortly after I had moved out as she had duped me into thinking it was my fault. She refused to talk to me about it and even said things like “I can talk to who I want”, “you can’t control me” etc. I felt my only options were to wait or file.
My recent discovery that the EA was happening for years before BD has helped me realise, I have been duped. Last time I brought it up she looked me in the eyes and denied it. I am sure she will do anything she can to avoid admitting this, by denying, deflecting, minimising etc.

Those are my thoughts, FWIW. If you decide to address the EA, I'm sure the board can help you put together a plan.

“FWIW” your thoughts feel like an angel’s words sent to me in my time of need. I have definitely decided to address the EA I just need to work out how.
I will tell her I want to talk and that I know how long the EA has been going on, how I was duped, how deep she got involved with him and I am at the point where I am completely ready to let her go.
Thank you for your advice on my list I have revised it as follows, I will tell her I expect her to:

Verbally commit to do everything she can to reconcile with me and save this MR

Send a permanent end message to him with me watching through her secret FB account with me watching whilst she then deletes the account.

Agree to my chosen transparency plan.

Attend M/C of my choice where we will address her EA, how she can help me rebuild trust and how we can start piecing.

I need to be prepared for her to continually deny everything or refuse to comply. I think my only choice will be to issue the ultimatum that she does all this or I file for D on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour.
Any advice from the board on this plan will be very much appreciated.

Thanks

[sandi2]

I am ashamed I haven’t brought this up before but was scared of doing it in the wrong way, I could really do with some advice on how to approach it.

Don't feel ashamed, b/c you thought you were doing the right thing. Sometimes, I wish I could go back and clarify some of the 37 rules, b/c over the years I have seen people going a bit extreme with some of the rules. It's simply b/c they were written more in bullet point style, without sufficient explanations. So anyway.......we all learn, eh? I think we can figure out what your next step should be, or how you may need to address the elephant in the room.

I will be scared but I know I will just have to do it scared.

Exactly! All I ask is if you will run things by the board before you jump into some major decision or have a serious talk. LBS's tend to make more mistakes when they feel a spurt of inspiration or desperation (whichever) and don't discuss it with the board, or give the board time to reply. I don't want anyone getting dependent on the board to make their decisions, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

It’s quite an eye opener to see that our successful joint commitment to R will only lead to the long difficult work of piecing.

LOL........yes, I see what you mean. However, if it will help your feelings, I let you in on something I believe about the LBH and piecing. I am not suggesting anyone agrees with me, okay? (Please forgive for taking the long road around to explain something you might feel doesn't apply at the moment, but it's how I try to explain it overall.) IMHO, the H's who are on the board, getting all the available tools offered to him.....is so much better prepared for Piecing than the average guy. Many H's will do a lot of their personal growth, reinvention, 180's. etc., before the couple ever reaches reconciliation. What he may, or may not, realize is that the WW's work cannot begin until she ends her affair. Some people may not see it as "work", but one of the hardest things she'll do is to successfully end all contact with her AP......and go through the withdrawals of that addiction. She has to get that OM out of head and leave him out (no fantasizing about what could have been, etc.) Until she does that work, the MR is not going to be everything is could be, b/c she has another guy in her head! To be fair, if I even dare use that word toward a WW, depression will probably go hand in hand with the withdrawals and even last for a while. If I need to expound why, I am up for the task.

So, what if the WW ends her affair, but no verbal commitment or reconciliation is made? This is where I will quickly question her lack of remorse and motivation. You see, she can make choices to show politeness, friendliness, affection, and basically act as if nothing ever happened. She can improve her all around behavior without her feeling one degree of remorse for how she treated her H. She should not be under the assumption that ending her affair automatically reconciled the MR. B/c a woman is capable of ending her A; go through withdrawals; and still not feel remorse. She can hang on to old resentment, disrespect, and self justification for a long time. Those very issues will prevent her from experiencing true and complete remorse, IMHO. She may be able to work on self improvement to a point, but that junk she has buried in her heart has to be healed or she's not going to experience the in-love feelings she wants. It's a process for the WW. It doesn't happen all in flash. Once she lets go of all that resentment and forgives her H for everything he's ever done.......I think she'll experience remorse for her own actions. I'm not saying the H should ask her to forgive him for everything. Please don't go there in some attempt to help her feel remorse,. This is something she has to process herself, and IMHO, it's part of the painful work she has to do. She has to overcome her pride, in order to feel remorse. If the H goes to her seeking forgiveness of things he isn't even aware exist, he will automatically set her up to continue blaming him for their problems, and she won't likely experience much humility if he's the scapegoat.

Just like her H needed tools, she will need tools also. He needs to realize that they have been on separate journeys, and coming back to the same one is going to be challenging. He's done all this work in hopes of saving himself and his M. He is excited when they reconcile, but when they enter into Piecing, he doesn't understand why she isn't showing the same level of effort, energy, interest, affection, etc. She has to process a lot and it doesn't come overnight for most. It's like being pregnant and giving birth. If she thought it was tough being pregnant, she doesn't know anything yet. Just wait till labor hits! The H did his thing beforehand, so his part of his job during the pregnancy and labor pains is to give her emotional support.

I can’t define my MR as in piecing as we haven’t discussed R, I haven’t given her my stipulations and she hasn’t verbally gone back on any of the things she has said at BD and since. Although her actions and behaviour look like she wants to R and has changed her mind on these things she hasn’t actually told me anything.

I don't think you are in Piecing, either. You are limbo, b/c nothing was said or settled, that I can tell. Here's what I am wondering. When you went back to the MBR,was it the night you returned home? I can't remember. And, were you intimate the night you returned to the MBR? If so, then there's a chance she is letting that event signify a reconciliation. If I were in her shoes, being intimate with my H would mean reconciliation........but that doesn't mean I actually said it in words. If my H never said he required anything from me......then I would assume we were reconciled, since we were sleeping in the same room, having sex and pretty much going about like an ordinary couple. But that's me. Your W may be different. From what I've read, most all WW's will not take it upon themselves to do or say everything the H wants/needs if he stays quite about it. What's that old saying about silence gives consent?

They married about 20 years ago. They had no children and the marriage only lasted a couple of years, due to him having multiple A’s treating her very badly including violence and in the end being admitted to a psyche unit for serious mental difficulties, I think schizophrenia. He then abandoned her and she filed for D on that basis. He went back to his country and still lives over 5,000 miles away from us.

Oh wow! So, the idea that she would entertain the thought of going back to him.......is disturbing, to say the least. As I said in the previous post, this is a fantasy she has. IDK if he has convinced her that he is well and yada, yada.......but for whatever reason, she has some type of attachment. Regardless, it is unhealthy that she would even consider it. If I were you, therapy would definitely be on top of the list of requirements in going forward.

I met her the week her D was finalised, and we have been together 17 years with 2 beautiful children. I believe from what I’ve read that her fantasy is now to reunite with him when the kids have left. She has been living this fantasy in her EA for the last 3 years with him and is now dealing with withdrawals due to her recent decision to temporary cut off contact.

Is she demonstrating any particular symptoms, or are you going by the fact she has gone NC? How long has it been since last contact?

She refused to talk to me about it and even said things like “I can talk to who I want”, “you can’t control me” etc. I felt my only options were to wait or file.

It's not about you trying to control her. It is about your personal boundaries. When she M you, she was to forsake all others, which means not to be sexual with anyone else. If you google it, you will find a lot of additional opinions about that vow, so I might as well add mine. It means that no other person takes priority over her relationship with her H. If her H does not feel comfortable with her talking to another man......then by her own wedding vows, she should honor his feelings. If he is unreasonable, then she should divorce him, but don't continue communicating with some guy when your H has a problem with it. I am so sick of women playing the "you are trying to control me" card. She is the one manipulating you by playing that card, and don't you forget it. Men's b@lls tend to freeze up when their W plays the control card. (Sorry.........got on a rampage.)

You need to be secure in what you will do if she chooses not to honor your feelings. That is basically the function of enforcing boundaries.

My recent discovery that the EA was happening for years before BD has helped me realise, I have been duped. Last time I brought it up she looked me in the eyes and denied it. I am sure she will do anything she can to avoid admitting this, by denying, deflecting, minimising etc.

For some men, it seems important to prove what he knows to be true. Shoving the evidence in her face doesn't always bring a confession......as crazy as it may sound. You can't fix crazy! I don't recommend you show your sources of intell to her, b/c should she agree to your terms of reconciliation....you want to keep very close tabs on her communication with OM. So, don't give your sources away, no matter how much you want to push it into her face. If she denies, simply tell her you both know she's lying, and proceed with your alternative plan.......which should be to physically separate/divorce. As long as you are going to live under false pretenses and not do anything about it.......she'll play dumb. That's what WW do best.........play dumb! And, they play their H's for a dummy. (Sorry) You are no dummy. You are a good man, and one who loves his family. She's the dummy, and it sounds as if she needs professional therapy considering her XH previous track record.

Oh, I written too much. So, we can continue once you reply.

[lusa]

All I ask is if you will run things by the board before you jump into some major decision or have a serious talk. LBS's tend to make more mistakes when they feel a spurt of inspiration or desperation (whichever) and don't discuss it with the board, or give the board time to reply. I don't want anyone getting dependent on the board to make their decisions, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Understood. Thank you for the warning, I can see how that could easily happen in these situations, I won't rush into anything. One of the gifts I have gained through this process is patience, so I will use it here.

I don't think you are in Piecing, either. You are limbo, b/c nothing was said or settled, that I can tell. Here's what I am wondering. When you went back to the MBR,was it the night you returned home? I can't remember. And, were you intimate the night you returned to the MBR? If so, then there's a chance she is letting that event signify a reconciliation.

I moved back against her wishes and spent the first 6 weeks sleeping on the couch, like a lost puppy who was eventually allowed in the house out of the rain. Then one night I just went to sleep in the MBR, nothing was said. After a week or so she initiated intimacy. This would have been a very rare event for even years pre-BD, but at least I now know why. It wasn't repeated and now it is small non-sexual touching slowly building up.

I do believe she chalked it up to her symbolic reconciliation, and with my intel I'm pretty sure it coincided with her last NC communication to XH.

Is she demonstrating any particular symptoms, or are you going by the fact she has gone NC? How long has it been since last contact?

From good intel, I am pretty sure the last goodbye / Au Revior words were around the start of Dec, so 10 weeks.
She has played "their songs" on repeat when ever alone for a while, which is gradually diminishing now. she's shown signs of depression. I've validated well and initiated new projects with her, she has felt supported (obviously with no mention of the elephant). I can almost see her change every day letting me a little bit more into her heart as she lets him go.

You need to be secure in what you will do if she chooses not to honor your feelings. That is basically the function of enforcing boundaries.

Now etched in my heart........thank you

I don't recommend you show your sources of intell to her, b/c should she agree to your terms of reconciliation....you want to keep very close tabs on her communication with OM.

Noted, thanks.

As long as you are going to live under false pretenses and not do anything about it.......she'll play dumb. That's what WW do best.........play dumb! And, they play their H's for a dummy. (Sorry) You are no dummy. You are a good man, and one who loves his family. She's the dummy, and it sounds as if she needs professional therapy considering her XH previous track record.

I have been so lost in the desperate LBS fog, my fleeting realizations that her choices are disturbing and she needs professional help keep getting lost and forgotten. I've read stories here where IC's just validate their clients feelings and encourage them to do what they want, but actually this is more serious, her flawed decisions here are a real cause for concern. I will make therapy for her a priority too.