Yes girl, but the rules are for you...to protect yourself. You know that Fly...your H has a long road to his inner self. And it depends on him to get there. Meanwhile you keep DB. And we all know you are a good DBer! Keep going!
(((HUGS)))
Hi Neff - thanks. I know the rules protect me. He can still be hurtful at times and detachment mitigates the emotional impact of his bullets. So I hold on to the rules like a shield. But from time to time, my thoughts go back to what Steve commented once ... how does this any of this bring me closer to my goal? Don't get me wrong - the rules are all I have and I apply them like a shield. Without them I would still be the girl I was when I first joined this community - lost and broken and to paraphrase Davide 'curled up on the floor in the the foetal'.
There is a reason I am a good Dber - it comes naturally to me.
I wonder sometimes if my H has gone through the same process as me. Unless he wants to tell me, I will never know. I suspect, to some level he has. He is not as angry as when he left. I am no longer (always) the architect of all that is wrong with his life. He has set the terms of reference (we are co-parents trying to do the best for our children) and he is trying to be kind within that framework. He says "what are you up to today?" when he comes to pick up the children. He will offer me lifts and ask me if I want to join them on certain family outings. I can see him actively trying to hold his temper in. I can see him start to talk then stop himself. But from time to time I see the old 'controlling' him come out. The one that likes to allocate blame before reviewing the facts - it was "you should be on top of this" (when we BOTH got D9's return date to school wrong - I noticed first) or "why doesn't D12 have any clean socks" (because she doesn't put them in her wash bin). He has not changed. He has not done the work. Until he has, there is no chance for an R.
FS, your self reflection share was stunning. I've never met someone with such a clear view of their own actions and motivations. I don't think most people ever see themselves as objectively as you do.
As you move forward with your self-improvement - how do you see yourself doing that? I have ingrained habits that I wish to change about myself. I have identified them, but don't know how to change except being aware of them. I try to keep them in the forefront of my mind. Any tips, tricks, or thoughts on this subject?
It seems both you and I have improvements to make that are strongly tied to our past R, but might not show up so much in other relationships with friends/family. So how do we work on our own shortcomings that were in part dependent on the S and how the two of you interacted?
Yail - being aware of them means (I hope) that we are half way there to changing them. For me, it is being more considerate, more honest and more vulnerable with people. Of course, I cannot share any of this with my H, but I can actively change how I interact with others. My 180's below (these have been in force for some time now though never ever listed out).
1. I will initiate contact with people I care about - just a quick text every now and then to say "how are you?" 2. I will book lunch or dinner with a friend once a week. During these lunches/dinners I will be present. 3. I will take an interest in people's lives - I will ask people how there night/weekend/holiday etc was and actually listen to their responses. 4. I will smile more, say thank you more (and mean it) and apologise when I do something wrong. 4. I will do things with the children they like doing - instead of just dragging them to various activities and errands that need doing. I will listen to them when they talk. 5. I will be more organised so I can better live in the present and not be constantly running from one thing to another. 6. I will stop allowing my H to send me into a spin. He is not trying to hurt me. He is just trying to get on with his life.
I don't know if any of this will bring my H back. It has helped me a great deal though. I showed him a photo from my NYE party and he said "I am surprised so many people turned up". At first I was offended (but didn't show it) but then realised from his perspective it was a surprise. I have not made an effort with people for a long time, and the changes above, are starting to reflect in the friendship groups I am forming.
This is great FS. I too am on a path to becoming more open and vulnerable. I've always been very stable and happy and moved forward at a leisurely stroll. But my whole experience with W pulling away and leaving has brought me to my knees.
My greatest new change is my feeling of empathy for others. I could sympathize before, but I never really felt emotions if others were going through something. I now feel them, and I'm more present in my life as I find myself around other living, breathing, fascinating humans.
I am trying. I did not learn these habits over night. I carry them over from childhood. Also, the hurt I felt was immense. I could function but it was like walking around in a dream - I was there but not there. Numb. I could feed and wash my children. I could go to work. But I was not really there. So, as emotional self preservation is my way of dealing with hurt, and this was a level of hurt I had not felt before, showing appreciation and gratitude for the little scraps he throws me at times is difficult. Not zoning out when he says something hurtful (though he prob. doesn't even realise it) is difficult. I have landed at a friendly but not emotionally invested interactions with him. I ask him about his day, but I don't pry. I am 'present' when he talks about the children. I say "have a great night/day" etc when he leaves. it is a balancing act (I am not sure where lovingly detached turns to pursuit).
FlySolo, as I said before my interactions with my W was very similar. The difference is that she is the one who left and I am the one who worked on myself more than her. So in a way, I think I understand both of you because I lived it during 17 years. And I did the work that needs to be done for someone who has (had) some similar flaws as your H.
But unlike you, I am more confident that I have changed and that I will be able to behave differently in a new relationship either with my W or with someone else. But this takes continuous work and I need to be aware of my behavior at all times. Like you said, I didn't learn my bad habits over night. I used to be angry, controlling, critical and uptight a lot of time. Like you, I think I knew on some level what I was doing, but I never stopped to think about the effect it could have on other people (my W). I never brought the light on what I was doing. I only focused on what she was doing wrong.
Also, my perception was (is) that I was nice and kind most of the time because I only considered the amount of time I was nice which was most of the day compared to the time I criticized or said something harsh which was maybe once or twice a day. I never realized that because of this 1 or 2 things I said every day that probably lasted not more than 1 or 2 minutes, she couldn't appreciate the remaining long hours of the day.
Her perception was completely different (like yours); she thinks I was mean and critical all the time and probably could have said the same as you "the little scraps he throws me at time".
I am not as good a DBer as you. I think DBing comes natural to your personality type, but is totally unnatural to mine because I am not good at keeping my emotions in check and detaching. And this is really key to what I am trying to communicate to you. Every case is unique. In many cases, detaching and giving space is right. But in your case, the problem during your marriage from his point of view was your detachment. Your 180 change must be showing more love, empathy, and emotion. What do you have to lose? He left already and you seem to be doing well anyway.
If I am reading his type of personality correctly, the most important thing for him is to feel understood and loved.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I am fortunate as there are others here who have to live (and continue standing) for spouses who have abandoned not just them, but the children.
I am one of those people. My W abandoned everything, including her family and kids. It's heartbreaking!
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I think any type of pressure (from me or anyone else) would send him running for the hills. Plus, he spends so much time with the children he would not have time for a proper relationship and he is not one for casual relationships.
I'd like to challenge your assumptions. What makes you think that if you showed affection, he would run away? He doesn't seem to be that kind of person. He ran away because your lack of affection was killing him. His pride probably had enough of feeling that he was trying to give you love (in his perception he was) and that you were not reciprocating.
Your situation seems to be one that can be solved by the opposite of the detaching approach. Otherwise, you are setting up the stage for a long-term coparenting relationship only. He is like me: He is family man who values emotional bonding and long term commitment. He doesn't want a casual relationship. If you continue being detached and cold, he will end up attaching to someone else and will give her everything he has.
Personally, I would recommend showing him affection, listening to him with empathy, but setting boundaries to protect yourself if he continues to behave in a hurtful or angry way. I am not sure you appreciate enough what love can do to a man with this personality. He needs to see the prize he would get if he fixes himself. This is why it has to be a conditional love with boundaries.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
At first I followed the rules (don't initiate contact and Yes, No or not response when they initiate), but I worried that for him this is more of the same. There is very little anger in our exchanges and our communication is friendly but not emotionally invested. He temp checks and overall I respond with "thanks", or "no probs". Will I ever share with him what I have learned about myself? I don't know. I think he would have to be open to listening to it and I don't think he is.
Why do you think he will not be open to it? If you decide to share it with him, I'd recommend sending it to him in writing in a letter or an email because he may not be ready to hearing it directly from you.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
Anyway, Kiro - thank you for listening (reading). Even if he never hears any of this, I hope it helps you.
FlySolo, this is helping me of course in my Sitch. I wish my W could learn from you
I hope you will also continue writing on my thread from time to time.
And sorry if I hijacked your thread. I have a hard time expressing myself clearly in fewer words because English is not my first language
Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14 BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017 Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
Kiro - for someone whose first language is not english, you write exceedingly well. I live in England, and the clarity of your writing puts many of my English born colleagues to shame.
I understand what you are saying. Yes - it often feels like continuing to Db will only push him away further. But the hurt was huge and I am not quite there yet in terms of letting him in. I am not NC though or even going dark. It is a friendly detachment and from here, I hope that we can move towards friends again. I try and make each interaction as 'light' as I can. He cannot face the weight of our past yet. He is too hurt. But he no longer actively tries to avoid being with me. He no longer leaves the room when I enter or look down when I start talking. Baby steps.
My Db'g faltered at christmas. He had spent two days here (christmas eve through to boxing day) and it felt so so normal. Boxing day is his birthday and I got up early, tidied up what remained of the christmas mess and made him and the children a birthday breakfast. When he came down I gave him a hug (after the children) and wished him a happy birthday. This was the first hug since Oct when I found out about the dating (and threw myself at him). Without thinking I whispered "I love you". He pretended not to hear. Last year on his birthday I got him a Dyson hairdryer. We were in the midst of the BD and were not really speaking. I did not know what to get him. It was his 40th and I had planned on throwing him a party or booking a weekend away. I could not do any of that. All the presents seemed to sentimental and the only thing he had even mentioned liking was that [censored] hairdryer. Needless to say, it went down like a lead balloon. When I tried to explain I didn't know what he wanted, he yelled back "I told you that I wanted X". So this year, I researched and bought him X.
When he was leaving we shared another hug (at my request). The feeling of it being our last christmas was overwhelming and I told him so. He said he felt the same. I told him "It all seemed so unnecessary". He pulled away, I could see tears in his eyes and he said "I have to go and to try and try enjoy the day with the girls". He sent me a text later saying he wanted to say thank you for his birthday present, that it was very thoughtful and that I should not have spent so much money. He wished me a good day with the girls.
No need to apologise for hijacking. Your input (as always) is valued. But, I will respond on some of your observations on you and your wife on your thread as it might be more useful for you there.
FS, thanks for sharing. Glad to hear that you are seeing some improvement and that he is not avoiding you anymore. I think it's good that your DBing faltered a few times. IMO, this will help in the long term. Whatever happens, I'm sure he will remember these small moments.
I still think that there is great value in you sharing your findings with him and showing him you understand the pain he went through and your share of responsibility. Maybe it's still not the right time for it, but my opinion is that life is too short to never say it to someone you love so much. Even if you never reconcile, I think you owe it to him. Just maybe not yet...
Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14 BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017 Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
I agree with Kiro FS. I think it is good that your DBing faltered as well. I also think there is value in sharing your feelings...when the time is right. And I still believe that your H is one of the one’s who is going to want to come back... if he thinks he has a chance. I also don’t think that was your last family Christmas. You’ll have another one next year. (((HUGS)))
I still think that there is great value in you sharing your findings with him and showing him you understand the pain he went through and your share of responsibility. Maybe it's still not the right time for it, but my opinion is that life is too short to never say it to someone you love so much. Even if you never reconcile, I think you owe it to him. Just maybe not yet...
There are only two scenarios where I will share with him all that I have shared with strangers on the internet ... if he initiates a reconciliation or as a letter handed to him just before we sign the D papers. The former as part of our process of coming back together and building a new relationship, the latter a last ditch effort to save our M.
I think sometimes that I falter on purpose. Whenever I think he is starting to think I have moved on. Neff referred to it as push pull dynamics. Neither of us want to let the other go so we give each other crumbs, not enough to say "I am making myself emotionally vulnerable to you again" but enough to say "there is still a chance".
I hope you are right DV - on some level my H wants to R. He still cares and loves me. I had no idea how much hurt I had caused him - all I could think about was my own pain for such a long time. And knowing that, and understanding that, means that I know how hard it would be for him to open himself up to me again. There is so much water under the bridge now. Also, when I see that flash of anger in his eyes or he blames me for something that is clearly not my fault I question, even if he were to want to R, whether we would be able to build a relationship different from the first.
