two steps forward, three steps back (burned)

[burned]

Thanks. That was encouraging. I mean yeah I’ll be a better person. I already am. It’s just all regrets. It’s like I had this wonderful woman and I lost her because of stupidity, selfishness, immaturity...just a shame. So yeah the next one will benefit but I don’t think I’ll ever love someone the way I loved her. I’ll always be holding back. Every time I say “I love you” or crack some funny joke it’ll feel like it’s not entirely true, because those are things I used to do with W. Does that make any sense? Like, I’ll have to come up with entirely new things to say so that I’m still being genuine.

And what a friggin’ stupid thing to worry about!! Burned, get with the program. Focus on me, I know.

Just a moment ago I got annoyed because I remember her saying that our M felt like she was a frog slowly boiling. She said that! But believe nothing they say, water off a duck, etc. I just can’t believe some of the mean things she has said. It’s almost like OM has a stake in the game and is encouraging her. Like, it’s juts not her. Someone is pulling the strings and treating her like a puppet.

Oh, and she has been in IC since right before the A began. She ONCE mentioned MC back then, and never followed up after I said I didn’t think it was necessary. Almost like she just said it so that she could say she mentioned it and I said no. Seriously? If you thought we needed it, why didn’t you ask again? Ugh. Anyway, after physical S (before I knew about DB) she talked about IC and how it felt so good to learn to be assertive and to trust her feelings and act according to them. So a lot of good that did. Gonna end it here so I don’t lose my temper.

So first, I empathize with what you're feeling and often feel the same way that it would be amazing if prince charming came and burned swept me off my feet (see what I did there?!)

I see what you did there. That was sort of how I got into a little spin last night. I have a lot to give and I miss that feeling of limerence. I’m human, too. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life having to “think” about what I’m doing. I do enough thinking, obsessively. Sometimes I just want to LIVE and just let life carry me wherever it may. I know the general consensus here is that I CAN live and it has nothing to do with any other person. But nothing beats that feeling. We were made for it.

Edit: those last 2 sentences sound a lot like what W was probably thinking when she let Mr. F***head park his car on her front lawn. We’re all the same, in the end. (Yes, that was a sarcastic euphemism.)

[TJT]

So yeah the next one will benefit but I don’t think I’ll ever love someone the way I loved her. I’ll always be holding back. Every time I say “I love you” or crack some funny joke it’ll feel like it’s not entirely true, because those are things I used to do with W. Does that make any sense? Like, I’ll have to come up with entirely new things to say so that I’m still being genuine.

I LITERALLY think of this exact same thing. All the little inside jokes or sweet mannerisms, that you just did naturally, it wouldn't be the same to do them with someone else. But you know what? I think the combination of people is what creates some of those things too... so a new person may have their things they did with someone before, and you have yours, but TOGETHER your personalities will also naturally result in new things unique to just you.

I can't believe that just made sense because like I said, I've been terrified of that same thing. I think it's less that you won't be able to create these things with someone else and more of just another layer of grief. You have to grieve that the old habits you had won't be the same in the future. It's both refreshing and sad. But not a nail in the coffin to loving someone deeply again. Ugh why am I being so optimistic?! Just believe me until I turn sour again okay?

Just a moment ago I got annoyed because I remember her saying that our M felt like she was a frog slowly boiling. She said that! But believe nothing they say, water off a duck, etc.

Okay, so, this may not have been particularly nice or fair...and don't hate me... but it does sound like that was just her expressing her feelings. You need to focus on the WHY here, though. Granted, I don't know the full context or if she said other unreasonable things to justify saying that, but I can see how it could be frustrating if you get angry and defensive instead of validating her feelings and then trying to understand the root cause of them.

Also, don't feel too bad about this because we all do it. It's very hard to focus on what's behind someone's hurt when you are hurting yourself. You just have to recognize it so you can handle it when it happens and realize that there's more to it than just them being mean. Again I don't know all the context here so if you feel this is totally wrong, you have every right to evaluate it differently and more accurately than I can. But again. Be honest with yourself, and ask if this is one of those triggers/behaviors that you can change.

It’s almost like OM has a stake in the game and is encouraging her. Like, it’s juts not her. Someone is pulling the strings and treating her like a puppet.

I have to say you are legit confusing me. In your last post you didn't seem sure if she really was still with OM. Now it sounds like you're uber convinced OM is around and having a huge influence over her. Do you really know for sure one way or another?

Again, people do things out of character when they're hurting (and I don't mean hurting because of you. She may be dealing with her own demons). Maybe it's OM, or maybe it's the pain alien.

She ONCE mentioned MC back then, and never followed up after I said I didn’t think it was necessary. Almost like she just said it so that she could say she mentioned it and I said no. Seriously? If you thought we needed it, why didn’t you ask again?

Behaviors. Was that a pattern in your relationship? Did you shoot her down about things consistently or make her feel bad about it when you did?

I'm being tough on you tonight, I admit, but when I read what you just wrote it does sound like you are blaming her for your own actions. I totally get it if she minimized it and didn't make it sound like a big deal. However, if someone is asking you to go to MC...that's not just like asking you to go to the beach.

To be honest, this kind of sounds like my H... I also asked him to do some couple counseling type stuff when I thought it could help us (even just some stuff we could do together at home to learn more about each other) and he brushed it off even though it was probably only once or twice. AND when he was acting weird, I asked him probably 10 times one day what was wrong with him, to the point where he told me to stop asking. Then later when I tried to protest his unhappiness and explain that I had tried all these things, he told me I shouldn't have let it go and I just "should have known" to not stop asking.

That's blame shifting. Take this for what it's worth, adjust for details I may not know about your relationship, but process it nonetheless. And no, this doesn't mean that she couldn't have done more, or tried to stick it out, or as I said before, that it justifies her cheating. Obviously people make mistakes and it doesn't mean we should be punished for them the way that our spouses are doing it. But like a broken record - you do need to be honest with yourself and try to figure out where you are justified and where, maybe, you aren't.

You gotta stop being so angry at everything or you're never going to have the room to understand what's really going on, let alone fix or get past it.

I don’t want to spend the rest of my life having to “think” about what I’m doing.

I don't really know what you mean by this. If you improve yourself for the better, genuinely and fully, you won't have to think about it actively all the time. And for the many times where it still is valuable for you to stop and think about your actions, that just means you're a good person that doesn't just act off of impulses without caring for other people.

I know the general consensus here is that I CAN live and it has nothing to do with any other person. But nothing beats that feeling. We were made for it.

I agree. And nothing beats being the type of person that can maintain a great, healthy relationship even when that FEELING goes away, because it always does. Not necessarily permanently, but I am convinced more than ever that love is a choice. Even if you find that perfect woman, you are not always going to feel it. What you're made of in those situations (when you're angry, when they're being less than perfect, when you're annoyed or tired or broke or hungryand how you react to that is what will really matter in your life down the road. That's the part that has nothing to do with any other person.

[Wanted1]

Oh that is DIRTY. I didn’t think of that. Wow that would be a new low for her. I suspect someone’s coaching her. OM?

These spouses are some kind of crazy.

Any other explanations? Control, fear, plan B stuff? Other than that I think you might have nailed it.

Maybe a weird temp check? I don’t know but I think my W is getting coached now. Did a complete 180 on everything we verbally agreed to.

[joejoe1]

Burn,

If your W asked you go to M counseling and you said no, that's your fault. Instead of blaming her for not asking again, you need to take ownership for saying no. She tried in that moment and you weren't willing. That's the facts for that moment.

People who have been hurt by a lover, spouse, GF/BF, most of the time don't look past that hurt and the person that did the hurt. Most people aren't afraid to love, after they are hurt by another person they still want to feel love again. But instead of loving again, people that have been hurt put more energy into worrying about focusing on not being hurt again. Life is full of risk. Love is no different. So you thinking you won't love another the same way you love your WW, is not true, but you will love them differently with more awareness.

Our WS hurt us, but we tend to hurt ourselves more by not focusing on our own healing.

Onward and Forward

[AnotherStander]

Judging by everything that I've learned on this forum, I think if that were the case, they wouldn't come back because we, as the LBS, waiting around and not believing that they are gone for good wouldn't create the necessary changes it takes to "move on" and "make it" that's probably required for most of the WW and WH to realize they screwed up and come out of the fog.

Well yes that is the rub right there. If you do nothing but just try to wait them out then they'll never come back. But get over them and move on and they very well might want to come back, but BECAUSE you've moved on you probably don't want them back. Life is cruel, LOL!

2. What is her angle? Someone please explain this to me because it makes no sense. She wants everything except the divorce. What other cake can she eat? Is it not clear to her that the M is over?

Probably wants the money that she is claiming is the settlement now and then when she files she can go after more for the actual D settlement. My WW initially told me she doesn’t want any property settlement. That money wasn’t important to her. Boy, when I read her first proposal this past weekend she showed that she can perform 180s too. SMFH.....

My ex did something like this as well. All during D talks she talked about how she wanted to be fair. She drew up the papers, I reviewed them and actually she was pretty fair. Then when it was signed by both of us and set to be recorded with the court she decided I owed her more money. Something like 7k? Her reasoning was a bunch of rambling incoherence that looked like it was written by a 3-year-old learning to write with a crayon. I mean literally it was unreadable, I could not decipher what she was saying. I called her and told her I didn't understand it and asked if we could meet so she could explain it to me. In one of the few instances where she showed real anger post-BD she went postal and said "we will just let the lawyers sort it out in court then, and believe me, it will not go in your favor." And she hung up on me. Up to that point she was content to work things out between the two of us. I was trying to get the D finalized so I could proceed with a business deal, and frankly her show of crazy had me spinning like I had been BD'd all over again. The thought of months of protracted court battles and lawyer fees had me going through anxiety all over again. In the end I told her I didn't understand her reasoning and would have appreciated an explanation, but if she felt it was fair then I would sign it so go ahead and revise it. And that was the end of that, and I have zero regrets for capitulating on it.

Anyway, I guess the point is don't believe anything they say until the paperwork is signed and filed.

[burned]

Thanks all. Heading into IC now, will post more later of course.

What I’m struggling with today is:
1. The weight of all the things I could have done better
2. The regret that it’s too late (most likely)
3. The paradox that for the moment all I can do is be super tough and self-protective, minimally responsive to what SHE wants. Which is the opposite of what I feel I should do, because that crap (TJT, you NAILED it, shooting her down and making her feel bad about it) is what got me here.

“I’m not giving you a cent more.”
“See, you never cared about my needs. You’re a controlling a-hole.”

[AnotherStander]

“I’m not giving you a cent more.”
“See, you never cared about my needs. You’re a controlling a-hole.”

Option 2:
"I'm giving you exactly what you asked for."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be more generous. You're a controlling a-hole."

Option 3:
"Take it all, here's my checkbook, help yourself."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be working 4 jobs so you could pay for my breast augmentation, lip injections and trip to Tahiti with OM. You're a controlling a-hole."

You see what I'm getting at here? Her mindset right now is you are wrong and an a-hole NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You can't measure your success on her positive affirmations, because you will have a 0.00% success rate.

[burned]

Well it's more like Option 4:
"I'm giving you exactly what you asked for, on terms I'm comfortable with."
"You're a controlling a-hole and you're doing this to punish me."

Planting that seed of respect, I guess. It just feels so wrong, like I'm digging the hole even deeper. I know that's just a feeling and not a fact. Counterintuitive, yep.

L thinks I should stop trying to figure out what her angle is, and be somewhat less terse. Last night I said, "I'll transfer the money after the divorce is final." L thinks I could have said, "It is safer for both of us to do the transfer once there is an order in place."

Oh, and IC says it doesn't matter what she thinks, she'll come back or she won't (sounds familiar, hmm). He says, You're using this as an opportunity to practice doing what's right for you, so that you stop being the kind of person who just says "yes dear" and then resents it forever, thereby making you a better husband for someone else in the future.

[Wanted1]

“I’m not giving you a cent more.”
“See, you never cared about my needs. You’re a controlling a-hole.”

Option 2:
"I'm giving you exactly what you asked for."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be more generous. You're a controlling a-hole."

Option 3:
"Take it all, here's my checkbook, help yourself."
"See, you never cared about my needs. If you cared you would be working 4 jobs so you could pay for my breast augmentation, lip injections and trip to Tahiti with OM. You're a controlling a-hole."

You see what I'm getting at here? Her mindset right now is you are wrong and an a-hole NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You can't measure your success on her positive affirmations, because you will have a 0.00% success rate.

OMG, you nailed it right here. This is something I'm going to keep in the front of my mind moving forward!

[DC421]

AnotherStander nailed it! There is no way to "win" here. Divorce truly brings out evil sides of people that have never been seen before. The joke I make with friends going thru it is.... You could actually cure cancer and they would tell you that you did it wrong!