#8 - Piecing, Ring and coparenting

[SteveLW]

Also, I should mention that when she was in her 2005 EA, she never met the guy in person. But it has progressed to the point where they were considering (he was pushing) to meet for lunch. She told some girlfriends of hers in an email that she never would have "cheated" (I think this meant progressing to a PA since the EA itself was cheating) but that she just wanted one kiss with someone she was hot for.

I had similar thoughts/feelings about the same thing. I think it speaks of the mental/emotional condition of a woman when she is considering a PA. She was desiring the experience of hot feelings for another guy and engage in kissing. It's part of the fantasy. For me, it was partly b/c I felt so dead inwardly. The EA made me feel alive again. I wanted to feel like a desirable woman, and to feel the excitement and thrill from passionate love making. IMHO, when a spouse is in this type of mindset, it causes her to be more susceptible or vulnerable for a PA. She has let down her defenses. It's like she consciously (or unconsciously) seeking someone to make her feel good.....but she's seeking it outside the bonds of her M.

Admittedly even 9 months into Ring there are some things that haven't come back completely yet. She isn't as affectionate as he was years ago. Things like putting her hand on my back, taking my hand, etc. Not up to pre, say 2013 levels yet. Some things that were missing for a while are back. Like kissing and hugging goodbye and hello. Our communication is better than maybe it has ever been. We do flirt and make innuendo. It has been really good for the last 9 months.

Well, she probably still needs to work on some of her heart issues, IDK. I do believe finding a good therapist could help her.....and help both of you as a couple. Some of the things you listed in the quote above falling into lazy or neglectful habits. If you sense she doesn't want the front to front hugs, then do the side to side......but you may need to initiate them. Yes, I said initiate. Once you are in piecing and she is cooperating and working on herself/MR, you may not need to continue applying all of the 37 rules you were implementing when the MR was headed to divorce. When the M reaches the piecing stage, some of those rules may need to be tweaked...….it just depends on the situation. We can talk more about this, if you need it. It's a tricky spot, and everyone's piecing sitch may vary, so it's difficult to give a "one size fits all" advice in this stage. I do think the recovering WW needs a lot of positive support, without feeling pressured and smothered.

I can't remember if she repented from her waywardness, but if she did and if she's trying to follow through with all the right behavior/actions......that's good. Maybe her feelings about intimacy have not fully returned yet. I encourage you to continue the non-sexual touching, even if she does not do likewise. You should know her well enough to determine by her body language if she feels uncomfortable with any type of touch.

Your words have really resonated with me. If she had never been into it that would be one thing. Like (sorry if this is too graphic) oral sex. She let it be known shortly after we were married that she never liked giving, that it grossed her out.

So, it was sort of her way of giving you notice not to expect oral from her? Has she never given you oral? If she had a bad experience before getting M, that may have turned her off for life....IDK. I think having good sex requires a positive and healthy mental attitude about sex, and loving participation from both spouses. If she has some hang-ups, then sex therapy might help, IDK. Just suggesting. She has to admit (at least to herself) that it is a hang-up, I think, rather than just passing it off as not being her preference. She might would discuss it with a therapist in private, rather than in your presence. Again, IDK. I'm just throwing my thoughts out here.

I admit to having become a selfish lover like your H. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am....and then right to sleep.

I don't think it would have bothered me if he had gone to sleep afterwards. I just wanted him to stay in bed with me. As soon as sex was over.....he'd get up and go to the couch to watch tv until he drifted to sleep.
From what I've read, it is natural for a man to want to go to sleep after sex. Maybe she wants to talk, IDK. Maybe she wants to get some sleep, too. Learning the differences in men and women, and especially if we M someone very opposite from ourselves.....is a fascinating study.

Thanks sandi. Yes i have backed off on some of the 37 rules since we moved into piecing. I WFH on fridays and she came home from the store this morning I gave her a good front hug that lasted probably 15-20 seconds. She was very receptive and participatory. The non-sexual touching does continue, and she does initiate some, just not like she did 6-7 years ago.

I mistyped that last part. That should have said I HAD become a selfish lover. Since Ring and piecing we cuddle for a longtime. We last made love 2 weeks ago. It was bedtime. Afterward she laid in my arms with her head on my chest and we just chatted for at least 30-45 minutes. It was awesome! I loved it and looking back I can't believe how bad our sex life had become. It is miles ahead of where it was!

[MMM12]

I had an aha moment when I read this, and it all makes complete sense to me. For the last year or so i did not want to kiss my H. I would have sex, but not kiss. It was definitely an emotional connection thing. He was very much like Sandi described as in he would only kiss or show true affection when he wanted sex or I was always annoyed about something he did/said and I had no desire to kiss him. I'm not an expert but wanted to chime in as I didn't connect the dots of why I didn't want to kiss.

Did it ever return? Do you want to kiss him now?[/quote]

In our previous relationship, it did not come back. I was so angry about so much that I didn't want to "make love", only wanted to have sex to please him and myself.
We just started piecing about a month ago. It is slowly returning. Sometimes I am in such a bad head space that it is hard to feel the love. I guess at first it was easier but as I see more of the same, I notice myself withdrawing again. I think I'm so afraid to have the previous relationship back that I can't let go. Maybe your W feels the same. I would continue work on making her feel loved outside of the bedroom. I wish my H was on these board to get advice.

[MMM12]

Something else. I was always bothered that he couldn't take the time to talk to me, like really talk. So we would go to bed, have sex and we still wouldn't talk. I like to talk about feelings. I guess I am working on that.

[SteveLW]

The anniversary of BD is less than 2 weeks away. And I am feeling some anxiety over it. Nothing in MR2.0 is affecting it, just that it is coming up on the 1 year mark since BD. Even though I initiated it, I just have some anxiety thinking back to a year ago. How overnight my life went from comfortable and secure to what we all go through in limbo post BD.

Just to rehash. Last year, on Saturday 12/23, my W and D14 (at the time) got up, got ready, and said they were going Christmas shopping for me. My W had been distant in recent weeks, but with me being gone so much to the hunting property I didn't think much of it. The only thing that stuck out to me was a discussion I initiated a couple weeks prior, doing some light flirting, about making out. (It had been months (late summer) since we were intimate, and this was my way of trying to gauge the chances of getting some, selfishly I admit.) She made a comment about it (making out) being gross. I then got a little irate and said some things had to "change around here". She responded with "or what?". I said, "Or we are going to have problems!"

So on the morning of 12/23 they left. I had been off work for two days, and was catching up on housework (she hadn't really done ANY housework short of emptying the dishwasher and refilling it and running it, with dishes STILL in the sink (wouldn't fit), every 2-3 days. Likely the two days I'd already been off work, I was very passive-aggressive related to the housework as I was doing it. They left to shop, and I was folding clothes in the bedroom. Flipping through channels I came across the movie "Unfaithful". It had been a while since I had seen it so I started watching.

As I am folding clothes, watching Diane Lane's character, it was like watching my W. She was numb in the MR prior to her A. Then when her A started she got distant to her H (Richard Gere). She didn't want to be naked in front of him. She had all kinds of excuses for being away from the house. It hit me, my W was being the same way. Here is the list:

- Very distant
- Had lost several pounds (she wasn't heavy to begin with, just a typical mom, but now she was getting really slender)
- Never dressed or undressed in front of me
- While she didn't spend time away from the house, she came to bed very late 2-3am. Spent a lot of time in the bathroom (very unusual behavior for her), and just had a "IDC" attitude about most of the household things.
- Very secretive with her smartphone and tablet usage

Watching the movie it hit me like a ton of bricks. This was back to how she behaved in 2005 when she had her EA. That was all on the PC back then, but all of the earmarks were there.

I immediately went to her computer. Opened Facebook messenger. And started to see troubling messages between her and some guy. I immediately started to do recon on this guy and found out he lived several states away (we are in the north midwest, and he is in the deep south). The messages disappeared (she was obviously deleting them as they went) but it was obvious she was in an EA. Saying things like she didn't mean to get in between him and his GF. He was trying to say he wanted her to be there. She said she didn't think his GF would approve of the messages and pictures she had sent him. Vague but troubling stuff.

Also, I found she had been researching apartments in the area.

That night I confronted her. She immediately dismissed this guy as "just a friend". What about the apartment search? "I don't want to be married anymore." She had tried for 18 years. She had never been happy. She tried so many times to fix things but I was mean, controlling, verbally abusive. Everyone saw it, not just her. Her friends asked her why she put up with it. Our daughter was mad at her for letting me treat her that way. On and on. Lots of history rewriting. A lot of absolutes that weren't true (never been happy etc).

From that point until March, limbo. But that day stays emblazon on my brain. Admittedly, that is both a blessing and a curse. The curse is reliving the pain every time I think about it. The blessing is that it keeps me vigilant to avoid backsliding on all of my hard earned changes since that day.

I made the classic mistakes. Begged, pleaded, reasoned, made promises, tried to change her mind, talked to her about counseling, etc. Then on Tuesday morning I remembered DBing, started to read and research how to DB again, and started to slowly turn my sitch around through the DBing tactics that I had all but forgotten.

Wow, typing that out is cathartic. Last night when we went to bed, both exhausted from a long busy weekend, she said she loved me about 4 times! What an amazing turnaround from 1 year prior. While we still have a ways to go, things are 10 times better than last year. Yet occasionally I still get anxiety based on the last year.

Thank all of you for the encouragement and support over the course of the last 10 months. This forum is one of the reasons I am where I am at today!

Support of friends. Encouragement. Prayer. Finding my inner-strength. Learning about detachment and self-differentiation. GAL (I never had much of an issue with this one, before or after), and 180s. OH THE 180s!! This is the recipe for success....whether it saves your MR or not.

[SteveLW]

From Bo's thread:

Original Post in Bo's thread

More background on my sitch:

Bo, this is the same thing I've gone through. Both pre-BD and after.

When I was single, I had to find someone I was taken with. This led to one huge on-again, off-again relationship with one girl that last 16 years prior to meeting my W. She was gorgeous, sweet, perfect.....except she wasn't that into me. So she controlled the relationship. Even when she was dating someone else she knew she just had to wiggle her nose and I'd leap. I was just finally breaking that cycle when I met my W. In fact, just 3-4 months before that this girl called me and wanted to come to my apartment. Her (now H, then) BF was out of town hunting. I blew her off, told her I had things to do. She said "Well call me when you get done, no matter what time." I said "yeah ok" and hung up. Never called her. I guess she waited all day. She even told me years later that "she shaved her legs". If you know what that means.

I dated a lot of girls during that 16 years, and even a couple in the 3-4 months after breaking the cycle with, we'll call her NTIM#1 (Not That Into Me). Several girls that were head over heels, but I just didn't feel it for them. Then I met my W. The first 2 months the dynamic with her was very similar to the dynamic with NTIM#1. So essentially I was dealing with NTIM#2. My W still was hung up on a guy she had dated for short time before we met. Apparently his ExGF came back and said she was pregnant with his kid. My W told him to go deal with that, if she was still single when he figured everything out and wasn't with her, she'd be there. Then her and I met. 6 weeks in he told her that he was staying with his Ex to raise the baby. My W decided to try with me after that, and within a couple of weeks fell for me.

However, now looking back I wonder if I was plan B. She was 28, going on 29. Desperately wanted to be married and have kids. She even told me at one point that if she wasn't married in the next couple of years she would have a kid out of wedlock because she wanted to be a mom. What if Plan A (Mr. "My ExGF is pregnant with my kid") had stuck around? Am I now with someone that never wanted to be with me?

In the meantime, there were some great girls I didn't give a chance because of NTIM#1 and NTIM#2. One girl in particular I think we could have been very happy together. I didn't give her a chance initially because of NTIM#1. And then she started calling me again after I was with NTIM#2. Asked if I was seeing anyone. Of course I told her yes. This was the last time she tried. I often wonder what my life might be like if I had told NTIM#1 and #2 to get bent and tried with this girl. Very attractive, sweet. She just had one fatal flaw.....she actually was really into me. Not sure why that was such a turnoff to me back then. frown

[Ready2Change]

Hi Steve,

I am still stuck on the passionate kissing topic. I think it says volumes about how a woman feels about a man. I have never had a discussion about it with my lady. I am not sure if talking to your W about it helps or not. It may be your gage on how much attraction she has for you.

Just my 2 cents

[SteveLW]

Hi Steve,

I am still stuck on the passionate kissing topic. I think it says volumes about how a woman feels about a man. I have never had a discussion about it with my lady. I am not sure if talking to your W about it helps or not. It may be your gage on how much attraction she has for you.

Just my 2 cents

Thanks. We were supposed to be getting an offer on the old house today. If it sells we will be back in MC.

[RR17]

Congratulations on the offer.

I have been pondering the "Passionate Kissing" measure since Sandi mentioned it and I believe there is something to it. It may very well be the ultimate barometer of Attraction. Ask your self this, Would she kiss more passionately if she were in a new relationship?
I know mine would. I mean if we were kissing at all now. Point is looking back to when it stopped and it may very well be about the same time that we got off track.

I look forward to what you might discover in MC.

[neffer]

We get that kissing is even a stronger demonstration of love than having sex. Kisses are undervalued...

Good luck with the old house selling Steve!

[Jim1234]

Good luck with the house! I hope it's a full price offer!