Finding the Balance and then Tipping the Scale

[Adam04]

Woke up and thought about my words, asked myself am I giving myself time or am I acting again. I think I need to slow it down and when I want to do something, sit on it for a few days, share it and see what you think.

Maybe I need to ask myself what does standing mean to me? Is wanting to work on the marriage or waiting, is this allowing myself to be in an open marriage?

It’s only a few weeks since I’ve been here and I still have a lot to learn, to detach, to get a life. Not to say I won’t pull the trigger, I know if I do she won’t work on the marriage. If I know this, does this mean I am the one giving up if I’m forcing this to happen?

I’ll get the boundaries book and work on the lawyer ASAP.

[burned]

Good! Remember that at your stage, there's still a LOT you can do to influence the outcome. You have SO much to work with. My suspicion is that if you burn it to the ground now, you'll regret it within a week, possibly within days. You're right, it's so early in this process. Your thoughts and actions are all based on emotions right now, even when you convince yourself that they aren't.

So, take that angry feeling you get, that frustration about "Nothing is happening, nothing is working," and channel it into goal-directed action. Ask yourself what standing means to you. Like, get a blank sheet of paper, and at the top of it write, "My goal is to save my marriage." Then try to come up with at least 10 reasons why. Then you could try to come up with another 10 reasons why the actions you felt like taking (last night) would move you further away from that goal.

Post the results here, even if you get stuck. Even if you only come up with 3 reasons for each, you've already generated a pile of ideas to work with. Then people here can offer more tailored advice. Otherwise all you'll hear us say over and over is, "No, don't do it," and nobody will really know why.

[AnotherStander]

Adam, you keep using the word boundary, but you're talking about an ultimatum. To paraphrase that old saying, you only point a gun at something you're willing to kill.

The way you describe it, you're ready to go to her and say, "You have two choices: stay in this marriage, or GTFO." Which do you think she'll pick? How will you feel after she picks it? How will you feel a week later?

Exactly what I was going to say. Adam, I'm not saying not to do it, but take some time to think about it first. It is indeed an ultimatum you are giving her and ending the A will not be the choice she makes. But she may not be willing to move out either, and legally you can't kick her out. So where does that leave you? In the exact same living situation but looking like a fool because you gave her an ultimatum you couldn't enforce.

I do not want to have an open marriage.

I think it was Cadet that used to say this all the time- "most people who come here are already divorced, they just don't know it yet." What does that mean? It means in your W's eyes the M is already over. It doesn't matter that some legal piece of paper on file somewhere says otherwise, spiritually you're already D'd. An "open marriage" is one in which a loving couple willingly allows each other to have other partners and they do not consider it infidelity. I think you'd agree you are not in an open marriage by definition.

Looking for input in this. I want to initiate it soon but not go blindly into it especially off emotion. It's what I've been wanting to do because for me it's the right thing to do.

What do you mean about it being "the right thing to do"? To help you move on? To teach her a lesson? It's not really going to accomplish either of those.

Woke up and thought about my words, asked myself am I giving myself time or am I acting again. I think I need to slow it down and when I want to do something, sit on it for a few days, share it and see what you think.

Yes, exactly. Except I would argue weeks or even months instead of days.

[Adam04]

Thank you burned and AS. I thought about what I said and knew I'd be going in a circle since she wouldn't end it and most likely wouldn't move out so thought what purpose does this serve. I have to think about the reason I do things if I do anything at all and then also the consequences , and as I go through those emotions I will try to share as much as I can here.


Good idea burned, I can work on a list about what standing means to me and share. I know Sandi mentioned making a mental list on the boundaries. Seems to be a big issue with me. I'll also look at some exercises in the DR book and see what applies to me now. Something productive but helps center me. I want to distinguish the "stuff" I can do later if we R from the small things I can do for myself now, not actions like GAL but thinking exercises.

Thank you again. On the drive in to work I was thinking abut what Sandi was saying about how to use these next 7 months, researching my tone, my body language, the subtle things , and what everyone is saying about GAL. I have a lot to work on for myself and I thank you all for the support.

[burned]

One thing I learned through this process is that SO much happens SO quickly and SO many things change in SO many unexpected ways...that you should really be doing a lot of writing things down. Otherwise you end up reacting based on present emotions and you lose sight of the long-term picture. Writing it down helps you see progress, if any. Because it's so gradual that you won't notice it from week to week. And you seem like you process things by writing, so it helps you THINK, too.

So, every time you make a mental list, turn it into a physical list. Get a 3-subject notebook from Walmart for $1.50 and write everything down.

[Adam04]

Remember that at your stage, there's still a LOT you can do to influence the outcome. You have SO much to work with

Can you elaborate on this? Still mean working on detaching and gal?

And you seem like you process things by writing, so it helps you THINK, too.

lol, it does appear that way. Kinda putting things down in black and white. I see it and agree with it or go back and ask myself what was I thinking. Also, It just feels good to let it all out, the good, the bad, the ugly.

Been skeptical of having something so personal around in case she starts to snoop. I'm hiding my books from her and will need a good safe hiding spot. Will start it. Been wanting to.

Forgive me, on break and wanted to reply to a lot more but on phone with these fat fingers.

[lost8]

[quote=burned] Remember that at your stage, there's still a LOT you can do to influence the outcome. You have SO much to work with

I started by not doing anything. I always wanted to initiate R talk, initiate OM talk, initiate D talk. When things started changing was when I GAL, started reading, concentrating on me, dropping expectations etc. Do a LOT.....of things for yourself.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted by Sandi2

So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.

It may be early and maybe I am impatient or maybe I am confused at the direction of this.

Perhaps we are not understanding each other. When I wrote the above quote, I was trying to figure out where you were going. Were you going to work on self improvements and at the end of 7 months, move out. You seem to think her answer was not going to be in favor of the MR at the end of the 7 month time frame. If you currently know you will move out at the end of 7 months, then why would you currently subject yourself to the disrespect she brings to the MR, while planning to leave at the end of 7 months? I was just trying to get a clearer picture of your intent and how you are thinking about all of this.

Help me put all the pieces together, I thought IHS rarely works and LBS dealing with WW need to do more than being nice, giving space and showing we've changed, things that can be shown during R, but for right now we need to be tough. Isn't making the stand what we want to do for several reasons? Isn't separation with her moving out the end goal since it has higher chance for R?

Well, that's sounds a little jumbled up. Refresh my memory. Has your relationship status been labeled as IHS? If not, then just don't agree to IHS. That's doesn't mean you can't have her leave the MBR b/c she is cheater.....it means you have not designated this relationship status to be IHS. BTW, the WW sometime takes it upon herself to designate the MR is currently IHS, b/c that would be lovely for her. I think that is the H's cue to tell her to move out if she wants a separation. IHS is serving her cake with lots & lots of icing.

Now, let's talk more about the WW having a PA and refusing to end things with OM. We usually think of a PA as being the ultimate show of betrayal and disrespect. I have never seen the IHS label succeed in bringing the W out of her wayward behavior or cause her to end a PA. However, I have seen a few successes with couples who never officially put the label of IHSon the MR. It's rare, but not more rare than IHS success. I want to make it clear that telling your WW to leave the MBR and establishing or labeling the relationship as being an in-house separation are two entirely different things. (I discussed this in my first thread on the WW mindset.) I believe if it's going to be called or seen as M separation, then the couple needs to physically separate. I believe PS is more effective all the way around, if you are going to classified the MR as separated. Otherwise, I promise you that the WW will take full advantage of having the classification of IHS. Just don't put that label on it. It's like giving her a hall pass.

IHS is a compromise. In my opinion, IHS places the H in an extremely difficult situation to establish/enforce the more major boundaries......b/c in some aspects, he is compromising by living under the same roof with his adulterous W. However, it's not that easy for some to financially afford another place, pay child support, etc. I realize all of that. I'm only telling you what I've observed. IDK the times I have read a LBH words on how IHS was "soul crushing". He has lost his self respect, self esteem, the lines are blurred and he stays perplexed over every little thing....not knowing exactly how he should handle some approaching situation. He wears himself out by trying to be what he thinks she wants......and it's not working. He is constantly focused on her, b/c she's right there under his roof, rubbing it in his face every day.

Is physical separation the "end goal" b/c it has higher chance of reconciliation? I would not say it is the end goal. Yes, I've seen it more successful, but there are no guarantees. In my opinion, it protects the H's self respect as well as demonstrate it. The end goal is reconciliation, if you want a successful MR. You may discover after living apart that you don't want reconciliation. It seems to help in clarifying the lines a lot better. You don't feel you are constantly compromising on a daily basis. It gives the WW a clearer picture of life without you (more about that later), and it kind of pushes her & OM closer......which causes her to place more demands on him, or she starts seeing him differently, and it often leads to the end of their A. I could go on & on about this, and may still not answer what you don't understand. I always tell the LBH to do nothing before he knows where he stands legally. Hey, the ideal situation (for separation) is to have her leave the home, but it's not that easy anymore. From what I've read, she's just as likely not to leave, and the law seems to be on her side. You have to make those considerations. Do what works for you.

I know I could word it better than making it sound like an ultimatum but what am I missing, the true purpose of it?? Because right now it only comes across as an ultimatum?

If you are asking me, I will tell you that it is a sense, intuition, the feel of your posts......whatever you want to call it. Some of us have been around a long time, and we recognize the sounds in newbies. We can tell when a new LBH is wanting to do something/anything to make the OM go away, bring the MR back together. He wants to get his W back! He wants to straighten out the mess. I think it is part of how men think, just like he feels he should pursue...….b/c that's his nature. Newbies can't even see how they are pursuing, but we can. We can also tell when the newbie is grabbing at any straw to get the immediate results he desires. We can see how he puts expectations on outcomes. Call it experience, or whatever. One problem I see in LBH's is how they are rushing through all these things we tell them to read/study. They aren't really comprehending or retaining some important parts, b/c they are in a big hurry to find get through it (maybe skim over the content) and find the bottom answer. You may feel frustrated by some our posts, but I hope you'll stick with us, b/c we want to help.

I can't give you a guaranteed formula. I am familiar with the mindset of the WW, and I can tell you some things that will not work. All of us here come from a place of some experience and have learned from others. It doesn't mean everyone's M was saved, but we learned and are here sharing what we can.

I think that because I've been a nice guy for so long that my self-respect gauge has been compromised and I feel like I need to work on that, fix it, get it back, earn it, and show her I won't put up with her disrespect to me.

Very well worded. I get it. I've also learned that it is initially difficult for a nice-guy to balance his responses/actions. He comes here and reads about boundaries and standing up for himself, and he is ready to charge in there and give his WW the shock of her life. In other words, he feels fired up to take back his b@lls......at long last. But, this is where so many nice-guy H's open their mouth and insert their foot, b/c they are in a big hurry to show the WW a thing or two. That's why I told you about the H's who gave the boundary of not staying in an open M, and then they backed up and ate their words, which resulted in the WW feeling even more contempt. If you haven't ever enforced a small boundary, what makes you think you can enforce major one? I'm just saying that maybe you need to practice on a couple of less extreme before jumping into the deep end of the pool. I also a lot of nice-guy H's using way too many words when they voice a boundary. They talk it to death. Make sense? I'm not going back on what I said about separation, or anything else. I've just seen too many newbies jump off into something they didn't fully grasp. So, just take a little time to get this information down right. That's all I'm saying.

I can do the last last resort and cut her off any interaction but isn't that going dark and better if alrdy separated?

The way I understand "going dark" is as if you've dropped off the planet. Which, I think is impossible when you are living under the same roof, and when you co-parent a child. Some people see going dark differently. You don't have to go completely dark in order to apply the LRT. How do you see implementing the last resort?

is it not a good idea to initiate the dialogue at this point in time?

Back to boundaries, this was said previously, regarding boundaries. My answer is that you don't have a "dialogue" about your boundary. If you want to state what the boundary is, that's fine. But you don't have a conversation about it. I promise you it will turn into a relationship talk, and that is not the purpose of stating a boundary. Beside, she's not going to pay any attention to more talk. She's going to watch your action. It's not completely necessary to voice your boundary, but it is necessary for you to act upon it if it is disrespected. Does that make sense? In other words, I'm pretty sure she has a good idea of your boundaries already. She just doesn't honor them. Voicing the boundary to her is mainly to alert her that she's walking on very thin ice. She can't pretend she "didn't know". Personally, I think most every WW is going to test the H's boundaries. It's part of her wayward nature......b/c she doesn't think he has the b@lls to do anything if she chose to ignore it. Therefore, you need to be prepared for the worst and know your plan of action if she tries to compromise that boundary. And by the way, she doesn't have to agree with your boundary. But if she compromises or ignores it, then you act. No warnings, no negotiations.

I feel like if I push this, she will not honor the boundary, why would she?

Look, it will go one of two ways. She will honor the boundary and you don't have to follow up on doing some action to enforce it. Or, she won't honor it and you'll act to protect yourself by enforcing the boundary. You enforce it by backing up your word. Following through with whatever consequences of breaking the boundary. Remember the circle is around you. You are protecting Adam's respect.

I don't know how to explain this in the most accurate way, maybe someone else will offer to word it better. IMHO, your actions should result in consequences for the obvious disrespect for you (whatever that personal boundary may be). Everyone should have personal boundaries about how they will be treated by others. The consequences of dishonoring your personal boundary should fit the crime, so to speak. In other words, you save the most major action (on your part) for the most grievous show of disrespect (on their part). In a MR, for example, a physical affair would call for a pretty major move on the part of the H. Although it's not really about punishing her. It's not your job to execute punishment. It is your job to protect your respect and feelings as a man. She may not see your action as any type of personal loss or punishment as a result of your action taken. Enforcing boundaries ties to exercising tough love and taking your b@lls back as a man. I hope this makes sense, and doesn't sound as if I'm talking out of both sides of the mouth. If you are confused, keep asking questions.

I feel like if I push this, she will not honor the boundary, why would she? If she doesn't honor it, then we physically separate and work on it from there.

I'm not trying to knit-pick your words, but you don't "push" it. Setting a boundary is not giving a threat. You don't continue to repeat/voice a particular boundary as if it's a warning, and show no action when it's ignored or compromised. You don't follow her around the house making grand pronouncements about numerous boundaries. It's not like something you try to hold over her head. You've set a personal boundary, and there are no negotiations. She has a choice to honor it or not. If not, then you follow through by an action that protects you from the disrespectful behavior from her.

As for physically separating and "work on it from there"...…….if this is the route you take for enforcing a boundary, then do NOT leave her with the assumption that the separation is to work on the M. She has to believe you are completely done with her and her disrespect. That is very important. If you offer to work on the M at the time she learns you are physically separating then it sounds as if you are bargaining. No bargaining, no promises, no compromising your values and integrity. Trust me when I say that if & when she decides she seriously wants to make it work with you.....she will seek you out and want to know what she has to do to save the M (more about that part, later). That's probably not going to happen until she goes through some things attached to her waywardness. Although you hope the MR will eventually be reconciled, you cannot tell her that's why you are separating. Your main purpose is to protect your own feelings and not compromise with her lack of respect for you. This is taking a stand. Protecting your boundaries should be the motivation behind your action. It's not a gimmick to get her to end the A, or stop contacting OM and work with you on the MR.


I want to remind you not to try and repeat to her the words you read here. She'll know it's not your own words, and it will sound a little preachy or fake.

[Adam04]

Were you going to work on self improvements and at the end of 7 months, move out. You seem to think her answer was not going to be in favor of the MR at the end of the 7 month time frame. If you currently know you will move out at the end of 7 months, then why would you currently subject yourself to the disrespect she brings to the MR, while planning to leave at the end of 7 months? I was just trying to get a clearer picture of your intent and how you are thinking about all of this.

I mulled over that . In short, I don't know what is going to happen. I know I've been reacting to things. I know I'm still confused. I don't know what she will say at that point. I know I've said it before, I am using this time for me. I should have no expectations, but I do want to be prepared and be mindful of how some things might play out. I don't know in 7 months what either of us is going to say or do. I have this general idea that because she wanted the separation, she's going to experience the separation, I was going to carry it into the future. When 7 months is up, if she wanted to R, if she said lets D, or whatever she says, I was going thru with the separation because it was the natural course of things. The conversation would be similar to I'm sorry but in this last 7 months of watching our dynamics and soul searching, I've been getting used to the separation(not having her support, not having her around, not having her to talk to), I know I deserve (better)someone who is willing to put in the work for our M, someone I can trust, someone who won't cheat on me or compromise the M , and because she wanted it, she got it. That would be honest, and is the direction I want to go in. It doesn't give me any kudo points for standing up to her before that but I shouldn't care about her thoughts to begin with should I?

I was biding my time. I would have hoped to detach enough so that the wave of emotions all coming back doesn't drown me.

(I know you responded to me on what I should be doing in the 7 months after this, and everything is through the lens of respect, however I'll talk more below)

If you currently know you will move out at the end of 7 months, then why would you currently subject yourself to the disrespect she brings to the MR, while planning to leave at the end of 7 months?

As for the disrespect she brings to MR. I feel like it'll still be present now or if we separated. I think in any case, the disrespect is there so I can't use that as some type of driving force. After all, aren't my actions for me, and not based on if I think x,y,z is going to gain me more respect from her? Wouldn't that sort of thinking be expectations? I remember no expectations, no looking over my shoulder, no wondering if she will ever notice .


If she disrespects me in her own ways, as you've pointed out before, as her H I should be aware of when she does this, then I would have to let her know how I feel about it. If she crosses that, I am going to challenge her every time. Protecting myself right? Small boundary?



Sandi, you made a comment on IHS affecting LBS because it lowers their self-esteem with a lot of other negative feelings. I think because my W has not gone full blown all out with the exposure, I am not dealing with what a lot of other people are dealing with. I think I may be feeling somewhat sheltered from not knowing the truth. Don't get me wrong, my mind could be racing and thinking of that 100man GangB$%$, but it's all the same. I used to date troubled girls who had a "history" alrdy in their teens(and I hated people who judged them) so it would unreasonable for me to hold this woman to some different standard. Old wife, new wife, whatever.. Part of me thinks because she never went crazy in her youth, that she is getting a taste of that now and she likes it. I can understand that and its a shame, Not saying I condone doing that and breaking up a family, but I can understand what other individuals go through. It's like with the weight gain. When I was fit, I had a brother who could never lose the weight. He'll get depressed and eat and eat and eat. I was not nice and I think about those things from when I was younger. Sometimes we have to be in their shoes, its not always easy. Hope she will figure it out with a little tough love.

Dealing with the IHS and when it comes to my self-respect....this is how i see it, I've wondered about my sitch and ask myself if I "need" to know for certain, I could be doing one more thing, one more snooping here, hiring a PI, grabbing her phone, calling the phone# she texted, I could be but for what if I alrdy know enough. I hope this is enough self-respect to get me through where I can stand for the M. When I see myself wanting to stand for the MR, and not continue to stoop to certain levels, I feel like I'm good. I won't let her actions define me. I won't let other people's actions and words define me. Just getting into this standing, I see a lot of ppl going are you CRAZY?! I will remember to trust nothing she says, I wont allow her to trigger me or bait me.

You don't have to go completely dark in order to apply the LRT. How do you see implementing the last resort?

I've read people's posts on how they interact with their S. Let me say, I am trying the LRT. Our contact is bare minimum and there is hardly any talking, NO conversations. We have the board for the kids, we don't go out to eat anymore, we do have some lunch or dinners with the kids but we don't chit chat. We don't sit on the couch and do anything like a family besides eat at home. I help with the kids home work, help the little one with the bath and when its lights out, that's it. The only thing coming up for the family this weekend is to pick up our glasses. Other than that, I plan to be out. We don't argue, we don't laugh. She may say you have mail, then I'd say okay. No texts or calls. no emails. I transfer her money and she pays the bills. I'm not angry, i don't carry an attitude, I'm polite.

In my head I'm thinking let me catch her saying something crazy, I'd check it, then move on. That is how I want to spend the rest of these 7 months, less and less time with her. The more she would act crazy, the more opportunities I would have. I don't know how else to be. Emotionally I'm fine for the most part. Sometimes I get emotional when I read other people's sitch and think about mine but then again, when its me and my thoughts of her, block it block it block it block it is what I tell myself. Draw my son's picture, Think happy thoughts. Then things go away. I don't know if this is a mechanism or not. I don't think the worst is over yet. I hope to be strong enough to deal with whatever is to come.

I deal with things in black and white, I will admit, I sometimes need things written down as if an expert would say if I were in your shoes, this is what I'd do.

Also, I make sure not to regurgitate -anything- I've learned to the W. The last conversation I had with her was me trying to tell her I knew something was going on, and I knew alrdy during the convo that it wasn't going anywhere, it served no purpose. Won't happen again. It feels funny to learn something and want to run to the other person and want to share it as if I had come up with this new idea. I put it this way, it aint hard to google for help so if they aren't googling it, they definitely don't want the help. I get it that we only wished they would feel what we do, or see what we see , or admit they were wrong. It aint happening. When I was angry within the first two months, I don't know why I didn't kick her out then, but I shared with her two things, one was a Jehovah Witness pamphlet I thought was a sign. When she left to pick up breakfast one day and the people just miraculously showed up at my door. I said oh wow, a sign from God. I must show her it says thou must obey "insert me here"... NOPE. She probably said something like WTF is this SH1t you want me to read. So the last thing I asked her to read was a story about a man who divorced his wife and were at least amicable to spend time together for their children, to share a lunch or dinner. I told her maybe one day we could get to that point then.

[lost8]

Hey Adam, I'm just touching base in response to your comment on my sitch. Yeah I remember the three month mark and that was when I moved out of the MBR in disgust and was still snooping and pursuing. I really didn't start db'ing until that point and it really started with coming here, reading, researching and acting on my own instead of waiting for WW to come around. That's really when things turned around and realized the person I had become after 18 years of MR and saw that I too wasn't happy. Then I started to work on how I was going to change...and it all happened very slowly, I set goals physically and got myself in the best shape of my life, went shopping for myself for new clothes, planned small GAL activities and met new people which was very big I believe because I was happy with the small circle I had before.

Over the last few weeks WW has pulled back from her girls gone wild lifestyle. She now says she has a hard time leaving the house from her stay at home job and isn't sure if its depression or that she wants to spend more time with me. I have no idea if she is in contact with OM and I honestly don't care...if she wants to discuss that I will but like everyone says you have to get to the point of rope drop. I am not married right now, that was a contract with terms that were broken and is just a piece of paper. WW has said many things lately and has been acting like she is fighting to move towards R but I am sure is still fighting the addiction of the A as well......that I am not getting involved in...not my fight.

You asked whether I could take her back and love her again and I just won't know until we get to a point where we have to make a decision. She has a long way to go with therapy and I have repressed any of the questions that I need answered about the A, OM etc and have no interest pursuing them right now. I am continuing to do my thing and am encouraging W to get out again and see her "friends". The only thing that matters is that I will be a better person after this is over whether its R or D and my kids will as well. It is very hard to get to this point and I am over the anger that I had for my WW. We know that we will always love each other but in a different way just because of our time together but we are just not sure if there will ever be a new relationship.

Keep pushing through Adam, I know it is tough. Work on yourself, I know its a cliche but it is the truth. You will start seeing your own light at some point and realize that you will be good with or without her.