I have full blown NGS. Didn't know it would be deep seeded. Going to need a minute to take this all in.
You and just about every other guy here. Even some of the ladies (looking at you, Yail).
Don’t sweat it. It’s a lot to digest at first, but it ends up being manageable. Day by day you start to take little risks and as you find out that nobody likes you any less for being more honest and authentic, you get better at it. Actually they end up liking you more. You end up liking yourself more. And maybe W ends up liking you more, too.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
I have full blown NGS. Didn't know it would be deep seeded. Going to need a minute to take this all in.
You and just about every other guy here. Even some of the ladies (looking at you, Yail).
Don’t sweat it. It’s a lot to digest at first, but it ends up being manageable. Day by day you start to take little risks and as you find out that nobody likes you any less for being more honest and authentic, you get better at it. Actually they end up liking you more. You end up liking yourself more. And maybe W ends up liking you more, too.
Thank you burned, that is comforting. I'm going to work on not holding it in, and just letting it rip... Picturing going to work and saying " oh my god, that shirt is hideous." Liar Liar Part 2!
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
Hi Adam, I wanted to send a couple of things your way today. This first one will be about boundaries, and I'll post a second one about detaching. I hope they help.
Okay, to start explaining boundaries (and I am not an expert), you first have to understand what they are and what they aren't. Think of a personal boundary like an invisible circle around you. This circle is to protect your feelings. Anything that crosses over that line, disrespects you.
You are the one who decides what is offensive/disrespectful to you. This should be based on your standards of values, principles, morals, religious beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. If something offends you, then there should be a reason it is offensive. In other words, don't just go by whatever you feel that day, b/c emotions can be fickle. When it comes to your boundaries, they should not really change unless your beliefs change to support it. Does that make sense?
You cannot control other people actions. You only control yourself. In a relationship, you can tell the other person their actions are disrespectful toward you. They have the choice of honoring your boundary, or ignoring it. If you can't control anyone but yourself, what happens if your boundary is disrespected after you tell the other person their actions are offensive? You respond with some type of action.
Let's bring it on down to a MR. To clarify by using the word "action", this is not to be interpreted as meaning you respond in any type of violence or abuse. If necessary, take the action to leave.
I believe most WW's have to experience some type of consequences when she shows disrespect to her H. The first time, he can tell her that is disrespectful and he will not tolerate it. The second time it happens, he needs to be ready to respond with some type of action that will result as a consequence for her.......in order to be effective. Of course, he can always walk away or leave the house, but he can't do that for everything or she'll just see him "running away", and interpret it as weakness (depending on the situation). And for nice guys, they have to watch their tendency to be passive-aggressive.
To use an example of a enforcing a boundary, let's say the WW calls her H and is yelling, cursing, and b'tching at him. He tells her he will not tolerate being spoken to over the phone in that disrespectful manner. She ignores him and continues to raise he!!. Does he warn her again? No! What can he do? He hangs up! If she calls again and starts the same stuff, he hangs up and doesn't answer again. No arguing, no negotiation, no more warnings.
That was a simple one, and the bigger the offense, the bigger the consequence should be. Some people might argue that it is punitive. I suppose you will have to make that decision. You are protecting yourself by doing something that clearly gives her the message that you will not be treated in that disrespectful manner. She doesn't have to agree or like it. She doesn't have to do it, but if she ignores your one warning......then there will be some action from you that protects your feelings from her disrespect.
Never say you will not tolerate some behavior, if you can't stand behind your word. In the link on boundaries, I think they use an example of the boundary "I will not stay in an open MR". Some newcomers with a WW in an A thought they would jump right on that one. Well guess what? The A did not stop and the newcomers were trying to back peddle, b/c they were not ready to carrying through with what they said.
What makes you feel disrespected? (You don't have to list those things here). Women can show disrespect for their H in many ways. The passive nice guy settles for her bad treatment, and some day she's showing him disrespect in front of his kids, his friends, his parents, his boss, strangers......and it gets worse as time goes on. We teach people how to treat us.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you Sandi. I'm grateful you provided that information on detaching and boundaries. I've read them a couple of times and I'll continue to keep reading them too for further insight if I have an AHA moment or just as a reminder on what I need to/can do. It's taking time to -really- get into that mindset of detaching, and I'm trying to be aware, really the thing these days for me is being aware. It's so easy to take things for granted or fall back into old patterns, not really paying attention to what those patterns are or when they happen. Sometimes it's very draining.
I've been anxious with boundaries. I've been wanting to set them just to set them because the way my mind works is that I have to have some type of action, thinking action would equal progress. I have to get expectations out of my head.
When I was done reading NMMNG I went back through the chapters and table of contents looking at the topics. It covered so much. I felt like it exposed me and opened my eyes to how the world perceives these behaviors. Definitely a book to refer back to, Thanks for the recommendation Sandi.
Never knew saying "I love you" was a covert contract, that blew my mind. Never knew what a covert contract was. My family has always had a history of saying that, my mother, by siblings, still to this day, when we hang up the phone with each other, we say it. I tell my sons that like a thousand times a day. I was pretty disgusted with myself at the end of the book, but I hope to turn that around. I won't say that I will be the next Bill Gates, but I'm trying to make a positive change.
In NMMNG, one of the topics was that Nice Guys never live up to their full potential. I am dealing with the resentment of this fact now and I know it's taken its toll on the MR. Watching W do well and I feel like I'm at a dead-end. I feel like I let both of us down, and when I talked to her about it, in the past she made it seem like it was okay as long as I kept trying, the money/success would come, that I'd get paid for my efforts. My own disappointment made things fizzle. That's how I see it anyways.
Today, I didn't go to the movies like I thought I would nor did I go shopping. I went to the store and bought pickets to repair my fence. Spent the morning repairing it. W asked if I wanted help. I declined. When I was done she bought lunch and said I had done a good job. Told her thank you and thank you. Ate lunch with the family.
Every time we speak, one of the first things in my mind is detaching and Sandis rules and also in the back of my mind, I'm waiting to see if she will say something disrespectful. Last night, she said she musta ate something bad and it made her stomach hurt. I was mindful not to jump up and say let me see if we have something for that or do you want me to get you anything. I left it to her to fix her bubble guts. I left the room in case she found a quick way.
W told me her brother asked if I had more pickets and wanted to know if I could help him on his fence. I said sure, I had extra, just let me know when and I'll be over to help. I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
After lunch I was able to get on and post something. Then it came time to do some decorating. Remember my lil one wanted to put the lights up, so we did. It is our last year in this house, maybe our last Christmas together, who knows. I didn't think about anything, didn't let that thought get to me. We did our family thing, putting the Christmas tree up, and the boys helped me put a snowman and lights up, outside. I'll miss this.
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
At work and thankful for everything. Going to try and not think of W , if it happens I will think of something else to block thoughts of her and refocus on the work. May fail but it should lessen those lingering thoughts. My 6yo loves to draw and saw some of my sketches. He said dad I'm jealous, I asked him you? I love his artwork, I can see certain things in it where I think it's advanced. I'm considering doing a piece for him using shadows, silhouettes , and just basically contour drawing of dragon riders in the sky, maybe spark something creative in him. Every time a thought of her pops in, I will think of this creative work I want to do and once I dwell on that enough I'll remind myself to get back to work. Here's to one day at a time.
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
Update: two hours in, thought about her or things related to her maybe between 25-50 times and I'd switch to a mental picture of something else, that drawing, I even sketched and doodles, and I can quickly disengage. But thoughts just keep coming. It used to be that when they do, I accept things, try not to dwell, try to see what I did wrong, learn from it, embrace it. I know in time things will be less and less. Maybe I don't want to count on time. When things were good I thought time was on my side, can't just rely on that. I think of her and I whisper block it block it block it, then think of something to refocus.
H 49 , W 47 T 23, M 17 S11, S5 BD: 7/18 IHS: 7/18 - 3/19 Physically Separated: 3/19-4/19 Piecing: 4/19 - Current
It's so easy to take things for granted or fall back into old patterns, not really paying attention to what those patterns are or when they happen. Sometimes it's very draining.
You feel more comfortable in those old patterns. It takes self awareness, and also discipline, whenever we make significant changes in ourselves. I may have said this previously, but it's worth saying again. The majority of LBH's I have seen return to the board, admitted they became too comfortable or lazy, and fell back into their old ways. Plus, I think some of them were making changes just to win back their W, and once she was back......they stopped working. Much like you said about once you got married. I think it's the same type of mindset.
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I've been anxious with boundaries. I've been wanting to set them just to set them because the way my mind works is that I have to have some type of action, thinking action would equal progress.
I don't think you get it, but maybe I don't understand what you mean. Do you understand the purpose of boundaries? Could you expound a little more on this, please?
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When I was done reading NMMNG I went back through the chapters and table of contents looking at the topics. It covered so much. I felt like it exposed me and opened my eyes to how the world perceives these behaviors. Definitely a book to refer back to, Thanks for the recommendation Sandi.
Oh, I am so glad to hear that you read it. I hope you will keep it handy, and use like a daily manual for your life. BTW, be careful not to repeat some of the text (or message) to your WW. So many H's compelled to pass along something he reads, as if it were his own words. You know, like he reads something he wishes she would read, so he tries to work it in his conversations? Yeah, I don't suggest you do it. It's a turn off to the WW. She may be in la-la land, but she's got your number.
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Never knew saying "I love you" was a covert contract, that blew my mind.
After my H discovered my A, I remember one day we were in the car when out of the blue he said, "I love you". I was so turned off b/c I knew exactly what he was doing. He was pressuring me to make me say it back, whether or not he realized it. For the first time in our MR, I did not respond. It made him angry.
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In NMMNG, one of the topics was that Nice Guys never live up to their full potential. I am dealing with the resentment of this fact now and I know it's taken its toll on the MR. Watching W do well and I feel like I'm at a dead-end. I feel like I let both of us down, and when I talked to her about it, in the past she made it seem like it was okay as long as I kept trying, the money/success would come, that I'd get paid for my efforts. My own disappointment made things fizzle. That's how I see it anyways.
It can get frustrating living with a man who has NGS. I always thought my H and I were very different in our personalities and how we approached most things. I was the type to "tackle" anything and get it done, and he had to mull it over in his mind a week.....or a year. It would drive me nuts! I wanted to just screamed, "Move....just make a little movement to signal that you are still alive!" He was introverted and I was extroverted. One day we were watching tv when a commercial came on about ADD. He told me he had been that way as far back as he could remember. I was shocked, b/c I had no idea. It made so much sense for some of his ways that drove me crazy (which I will spare details). So, when you sum up the NGS (especially the passivity), an introverted personality, and ADD...….it's amazing that one of us have not killed the other. He probably mulled the idea over in his mind, but that's as far as it got.
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I was mindful not to jump up and say let me see if we have something for that or do you want me to get you anything. I left it to her to fix her bubble guts. I left the room in case she found a quick way.
Good job! Absolutely, she's a big girl, she can get something for her tummy.
I see H's with NGS struggle learning how to balance some of these of new responses. They tend to go from one extreme to the other. Many of these nice guys have catered to the W so long, she sees him in a subservient role. That can kill attraction real fast. These are H's who wait hand & foot on the W, but both of them know she's not going to wait hand & foot on him! Anyway, stay balanced in this situation. If your W is too sick to get out of bed, then you can get her medicine, maybe cook her some soup. But if you are working downstairs and she's upstairs and wants you to take something to her? Use your head and stay balanced. Ask yourself why you need to stop what you are doing, go get what she wants and run it upstairs to her. What's wrong with her getter? I don't know how much you have spoiled her, but I know it can lead some women to feel and act with a sense of entitlement. On the other hand, if the family is having dinner and she asks you to pass the salt, don't tell her to get herself. See the difference?
This has nothing to do with punishment. It has two purposes. One, is linked to the NGS (which the book explains). And the other is linked to her wayward mindset. It is taking steps to break a habit of catering to a wayward W who does not appreciate nor respect you. In most cases I remember, the WW had grown to "expect" the catering. If she ends the affair and the MR is reconciled, then you can do things once in a while, like take her a cup of coffee...….as long as she is showing you pretty close to equal acts of service.
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I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
Seriously?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I am not saying it'll get me in good with her, but I hope in time with things happening naturally, that if I put myself in a position to do better, to also help others, that if she does notice, who knows... ( I know not to expect anything, I'm making an observation on my current situation with IHS, living together respectfully, and having opportunities to show the other person something positive, where taking an action (fixing fence) leads to something else positive ( helping brother) = how wife feel? this could be akin to action (GAL) coming home (action = not relying on W for emotional support) = how wife feel?)
That entire paragraph reeks of expectations and trying to think about how your actions will influence her feelings. NGS! You're new at this so don't feel bad, I'm just pointing it out so you start to get a sense of how insidious it can be. BTW, I'm not saying I'm any better at it than you are...
Watch out for "the illusion of action." You've read through my posts, you've seen me spinning for months trying to calculate exactly what to do to "fix this." Hasn't gotten me anywhere. So don't forget the one of the official DB principles from the DR book is that sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something, because "something" wasn't working, and "nothing" is something different.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
It can get frustrating living with a man who has NGS. I always thought my H and I were very different in our personalities and how we approached most things. I was the type to "tackle" anything and get it done, and he had to mull it over in his mind a week.....or a year. It would drive me nuts! I wanted to just screamed, "Move....just make a little movement to signal that you are still alive!"
Ooof, Sandi this is so helpful to hear from your perspective. I have Nice Gal Syndrome with the need to reeeaallllyyyyyy process things (the "really" was drawn out to show just how long it can take me....). I kind of knew this about myself but I'm learning a lot from these boards.
One of my goals is...ACTION! In my life. Make decision and GO!
