Advice for newcomer pre- bomb drop.

[sandi2]

To further complicate things, I don't personally believe in divorce. I know it sounds stupid, but I married this woman because I saw the pain that she went through when her parents divorced when she was 15 years old.

No, it's not stupid, if you truly believe divorce is wrong. I am trying to figure out how you look at things.

You say you married her b/c you saw her going through pain of her parents' D when she was 15. Was that your way of rescuing her and/or offering her a new life? I assume you were in love with her. But, was she really in love with you? (You don't have to type out a response, I just want you to think about it.) When a young teenage girl wants out of her current home life so badly, she'll nearly M the first boy that's willing to help her. I have seen so many girls marry young, trying to get out of a bad situation.

She swore that she would never put her family through anything like she went through. Yet, here we are...

I'm sure she meant it at the time, but she was still a kid, and people change.

That is why I haven't dropped this on her as a boundary as I'm not sure if I'm ready to back it up until I have researched the health insurance things.

Well, I can sympathize. But I encourage you to get on that research now. It would be terrible to feel you are forced to stay with a cheater, just to have insurance coverage. And, if she thinks you have no choice but to let her remain at that job, then she'll feel she has you by the b@lls, and your MR will be washed up. So get busy about that insurance stuff. Besides, if she decides she wants the D, then you'll be looking for supplemental insurance anyway.

Since I can't yet back up the boundary of quitting her job, I'd like to state something about not sharing her with him in any capacity. Not as lovers, friends, buddies or anything. I can't be with her as long as she is having any contact with him. I get that it's hard to enforce when they can see each other every day. I do have one ally at her work that I can count on to hold her accountable, but there are two others there that will go out of their way to protect her and may have even encouraged her affair.

Until she has made a clear, verbal commitment to do whatever is necessary to save the M, she's not going to honor this type of boundary of not being friends, etc., with OM. It's not the job of your ally to hold her accountable. Beside, it would place a lot of stress on the ally. S/he is the one who has to work there every day with your W. Your WW would highly resent it, and I'm sure the friction would not be worth it to your ally. Plus, the others at work who encourage the affair will make an outcast of the ally, or maybe cause other problems at work. (I've seen this happen a lot.) Women are like cats, especially when they work in the same company.

If I understood correctly, your WW made a half-hearted attempt to indicate she had decided to stay in the M. However, that's not the same as committing to do the necessary work to get over this affair and repair the MR. She has no idea of the hard work ahead that she needs to do. I have a pretty good idea where her head is right now, and she's thinking that you'll accept what OM's W told you as being a done deal and the affair is over......and everything goes back to the way it was previously, if she plays her cards right. But. that's not how it works. She's going to see OM at the office every day and it's going to keep those feelings stirred for him. OM and your WW think they'll lay low for a couple of weeks, but eventually they start giving each other the eye contact, meet up at the water fountain, take coffee breaks at the same time, start sending emails, etc., until it's back full on again. Working together keeps the emotional embers fanned, and it doesn't take look until it's a blazing flame again. It's inevitable. If they have to sneak around and hide in a broom closet, that just makes it more exciting.

So, back to your boundary about not sharing her. What are you prepared to do, should she not respect your boundary? The effectiveness of any boundary is determined by the consequences. Weak consequences reap weak boundaries. No consequences equal no boundaries. A person who disrespects you doesn't care if they cross your personal boundary, but if they suffer b/c they made the choice to cross it....…..then it might cause them to reconsider. See what I mean? She is currently wayward minded, and her feelings for you did not bounce back just b/c OM's W called a halt to the A. Don't expect a wayward W to do the honorable thing, b/c she's already proven that she can't be trusted, right? If she'll compromise or disrespect her wedding vows, she'll have no problem disrespecting your personal boundary, unless the price is too steep for her. See what I mean? She has to decide if contact with OM is worth the price she'll have to pay. The consequences have to be harsh enough that she'll at least think twice before dishonoring that boundary. Sadly enough, most WW's who are in the thick of an affair, allow their emotions to dictate their decisions. That means, most of them have to experience consequences. It's usually the loss that breaks through the affair fog enough to at least get the WW's attention and see what she is doing.

You say you can't be with her as long as she has contact with OM. What does that mean? Does it mean physical separation? B/c anything less than that, will not phase her, and a physical separation may not be enough to stop her. But check with a lawyer before you give any hints/threats of going that far. You need to know where you would stand financially, and your rights. So, use this time wisely and don't mess around.

[Bern19]

You say you married her b/c you saw her going through pain of her parents' D when she was 15. Was that your way of rescuing her and/or offering her a new life? I assume you were in love with her. But, was she really in love with you? (You don't have to type out a response, I just want you to think about it.) When a young teenage girl wants out of her current home life so badly, she'll nearly M the first boy that's willing to help her. I have seen so many girls marry young, trying to get out of a bad situation.

We both grew up in relatively conservative Christian homes, so we were just brought up that way. I know that's why she was so affected by her parents divorce. We dated as kids, but then split up when I went off to college. We ended up getting back together about 6 years later. I was and still am in love with her and I believe she was in love with me. Of course with all that has transpired lately, I'm questioning everything in my life. While I don't believe in divorce, I've been thinking that I need to prepare for it as she might make that decision for me, or leave me rethinking my own beliefs on the matter.

I will get working on the insurance info now as you're right, she may make the decision for me that forces me to figure that out. No sense in waiting...

As for the boundaries, I've been trying to figure that out. It seems everything I've read says to never leave the home. So not sure about a physical separation. Not sure if I asked her to leave if she would? I'm thinking not, unless I threaten exposure to the family/church/friends. That may be the final nail in the coffin of our M.

I realize that something has to change to get her attention. Right now she seems content to just go back to the way things were. I'm not sure why... if things were so bad that she had to seek out an affair, why would she want to go back there? I spent the first couple weeks doing all the wrong things (begging/pleading/pursuing) but as i've settled in I've realized that I wasn't all that happy with our marriage either. I don't want to go back to that stale relationship. I want to be a better husband, but I want something better, too. Why do I still want her? It would be much easier to just say screw this and move on with my life, but I know I'll regret it if I don't give everything I have to trying to revive my M.

I really need to figure this out as I've been doing pretty good with my detachment and GAL, but have been dealing with nightmares the past several nights. Makes starting each day real fun when you get a chance to relive the whole mess every night.

[sandi2]

While I don't believe in divorce, I've been thinking that I need to prepare for it as she might make that decision for me, or leave me rethinking my own beliefs on the matter.

Some people don't believe in a heaven and hell, but my advice to them is that they had better make preparations now. We may not agree with divorce or want it, but ignoring the reality is not very smart. So, getting legal advice and doing whatever you need to do to protect your rights is smart. You don't discuss it with her. Your business is private. It may feel strange, but those days of sharing with her every move you make is over. Some WW's make some very underhanded moves when they start to get custody or divorce, so you can't trust her. She's not that young, helpless girl any longer.

As for the boundaries, I've been trying to figure that out. It seems everything I've read says to never leave the home.

What does that have to do with your boundaries? Do you even know what your boundaries are? Have you read the boundaries thread Cadet posted to you? I suggest you not say anything to her about something being your boundary, until you know what you are doing.

Well, it is preferable for the faithful spouse to remain in the home, but in some cases, it's not possible for various reasons. Moving out, or not, is why you need legal advice. Some have said it makes no difference in custody, b/c everything is 50/50, while others say the lawyer suggests to stay in the home. Ask a local attorney.

So not sure about a physical separation. Not sure if I asked her to leave if she would? I'm thinking not, unless I threaten exposure to the family/church/friends. That may be the final nail in the coffin of our M.

If you have physical separation, then you have your kids 50% of the time. It's not like you abandoned them. One of you would have to find another place to live. If one person can't handle the mortgage, then sell the house. Yes, it is serious and tough stuff, b/c this is what you do when you are not willing to live in open marriage. How do you think she would ever have respect for you if you passively sit back while she sleeps with OM?

You are hesitant about physical separation, but would expose her to everyone? I don't suggest you threaten her with this type of exposure in order to force her to end her affair. I suggest you not threaten a WW with anything. It shows more strength, character and honor, when a man physically separates from his adulterous W, rather than threaten to expose her to the world. Just for the record, I'm not saying you need to lie for her.

Why do I still want her?

B/c she doesn't want you. B/c she turned to another man. B/c you are afraid of losing her. B/c you are dependent on her. B/c you have this family picture that is your identity with the community, all your friends, the church, etc. You see yourself as a family man.....and don't know how to be anything else.

It would be much easier to just say screw this and move on with my life,

I don't believe a word of that statement, for the reasons I just stated above. You are scared to death to move on with your life without her, and that's why you are trying to figure out how to stay with a cheating wife.

[sandi2]

To continue from my previous post, I thought I would copy something I had previously sent to another member explaining boundaries. I hope it helps.

Okay, to start explaining boundaries (and I am not an expert), you first have to understand what they are and what they aren't. Think of a personal boundary like an invisible circle around you. This circle is to protect your feelings. Anything that crosses over that line, disrespects you.

You are the one who decides what is offensive/disrespectful to you. This should be based on your standards of values, principles, morals, religious beliefs, integrity, self respect, etc. If something offends you, then there should be a reason it is offensive. In other words, don't just go by whatever you feel that day, b/c emotions can be fickle. When it comes to your boundaries, they should not really change unless your beliefs change to support it. Does that make sense?

You cannot control other people actions. You only control yourself. In a relationship, you can tell the other person their actions are disrespectful toward you. They have the choice of honoring your boundary, or ignoring it. If you can't control anyone but yourself, what happens if your boundary is disrespected after you tell the other person their actions are offensive? You respond with some type of action.

Let's bring it on down to a MR. To clarify by using the word "action", this is not to be interpreted as meaning you respond in any type of violence or abuse. If necessary, take the action to leave.

I believe most WW's have to experience some type of consequences when she shows disrespect to her H. The first time, he can tell her that is disrespectful and he will not tolerate it. The second time it happens, he needs to be ready to respond with some type of action that will result as a consequence for her.......in order to be effective. Of course, he can always walk away or leave the house, but he can't do that for everything or she'll just see him "running away", and interpret it as weakness (depending on the situation). And for nice guys, they have to watch their tendency to be passive-aggressive.

To use an example of a enforcing a boundary, let's say the WW calls her H and is yelling, cursing, and b'tching at him. He tells her he will not tolerate being spoken to over the phone in that disrespectful manner. She ignores him and continues to raise he!!. Does he warn her again? No! What can he do? He hangs up! If she calls again and starts the same stuff, he hangs up and doesn't answer again. No arguing, no negotiation, no more warnings.

That was a simple one, and the bigger the offense, the bigger the consequence should be. Some people might argue that it is punitive. I suppose you will have to make that decision. You are protecting yourself by doing something that clearly gives her the message that you will not be treated in that disrespectful manner. She doesn't have to agree or like it. She doesn't have to do it, but if she ignores your one warning......then there will be some action from you that protects your feelings from her disrespect.

Never say you will not tolerate some behavior, if you can't stand behind your word. In the link on boundaries, I think they use an example of the boundary "I will not stay in an open MR". Some newcomers with a WW in an A thought they would jump right on that one. Well guess what? The A did not stop and the newcomers were trying to back peddle, b/c they were not ready to carrying through with what they said.

What makes you feel disrespected? (You don't have to list those things here). Women can show disrespect for their H in many ways. The passive nice guy settles for her bad treatment, and some day she's showing him disrespect in front of his kids, his friends, his parents, his boss, strangers......and it gets worse as time goes on. We teach people how to treat us.

[Bern19]

Sandi, thank you for spending some time on my sitch. I've been absent the past couple of days as I've been trying to figure out some things and thinking about what boundaries I can start with.

My wife claims to have cut off all communication with the OM. She has been going to IC with a Christian therapist and has become much more open and transparent with me. She seems willing to start working on the marriage, and has been doing and saying many of the things I've been waiting for. We have are going to MC tomorrow morning and she has told me that she will truthfully answer any questions that I have about her affair, but wants to do it during our session tomorrow. I've been hesitant to ask questions and we haven't really talked much about the affair since the first couple days after D-day. The reason is I'm still having major trust issues and told her I didn't want to ask any more questions till I knew she was ready to be honest with me. At that time, she was still protecting the OM. I told her that I can't take any more lies, omissions or spinning of the facts. She claims she is now ready to do that. My problem is I'm not sure I can believe anything she says. In fact, I know that I shouldn't until she proves herself. I have a list of questions about 1.5 pages long that i've been compiling as I think things over. Some probably don't really matter, but others I just have to know. So, do I move forward and ask the questions? Do I wait till we are further down the road?

As for some boundaries, one that I've settled on is that I will not share my wife with any other man. Not as friends, text buddies, lovers, anything... I know that some might say that forbidding her to have male friends is too controlling, but she obviously has an issue with enforcing her own boundaries or she wouldn't of ended up in bed with the OM. So not having male friends/buddies/pals is something she will have to live with, if she wants to stay with me. Is that going too far? I feel like that is what I need from her (at least right now) to make me feel safe. Also, she claims she isn't communicating with the OM, but if i were to discover she was talking/texting/emailing him while telling me she isn't, that would be a deal breaker that I couldn't get past. What's the best way to verbalize that to her?

I'm realizing that I've done a poor job of setting boundaries my whole life.

[SteveLW]

Good stuff Bern! Keep up the good work.

Remember, she will need to show consistent behavior over a long period of time before you can trust it. Continue to believe nothing she says.

[Bern19]

Remember, she will need to show consistent behavior over a long period of time before you can trust it. Continue to believe nothing she says.

Thanks Steve. It’s been a tough couple of months. At times I feel like I’m getting things under control (those things that I can control) and am letting go of the things I can’t. Still drop the ball now and then, but do feel like I’m making progress. I want to believe we are making progress too, but I just can’t get the idea that she was able to lie to me for over two years out of my head. I want to ask her questions, but if she were to lie again now, I know I couldn’t forgive that and any shot of R goes out the window. So, the question is whether I’m ready to gamble this marriage by asking for the facts and hope she is being truthful? I wish I was sure she was being honest, but with her track record over the past couple years I’m just thinking about waiting and taking the time tomorrow to listen and set a boundary if I get an opportunity. Maybe the MC will have some thoughts.

[Bern19]

Well, back to square one in my sitch... Wife had been saying all the right things. At our last MC session, she had opened up about the affair. Answered some of my questions... Pretty much what I had expected. It'd been going on for about 3 years. Started as EA & has been physical the last 2. Since that's pretty much what I expected, It didn't wreck me like I thought it might. Biggest thing that I think about now is all the times she came in and asked me how she looked or which outfit to wear... it was more about looking good for the OM than wanting my opinion on how she looked. The other one that really bothers me was how she said that she didn't really agonize over the decision to bring him into our home for sex. It was just about convenience. Didn't even consider it an additional betrayal... smh.

So things were going pretty good, still having an issue with setting boundaries with male "friends". Got very defensive when I mentioned that I wasn't comfortable with her interacting "one on one" with other men. Either in person or via text, messages, snapchat, etc. Said not one of her friends is forbidden from talking to other men. The heightened level of her defense set off way to many alarms that something was amiss. So I asked her to see her phone... she was slightly agitated by the request, but handed it over. I checked her text messages- nothing. Facebook messenger- nothing. Snapchat- bingo. A different guy from work has the little heart next to his name. I've done enough research to know that means she sends more snaps to him than anyone else..AND he sends more snaps to her than anyone else. I told her that made me uncomfortable due to the fact that there is no trail of texts to read as they disappear after so many seconds. She feels that i'm being unreasonable. That's when I knew something was wrong...

So, in a panic that we are back to square one, I left one of my kids cell phones in her car that has a location app installed on it. I know, not a good DB move, but I had to know what I was dealing with. So, I can pull it up on my phone and see where she is in real time. The first day, I pull up the app when I know she is leaving work and see her drive into town and park on the far side of the local grocery store.... for 20+ mins. I know she wouldn't park out there and walk into shop, so I called her. It went to voicemail. She called me back about 10 mins later and said she was sorry, but was in talking to her boss about something and couldn't answer.... Lies... Lies.. Lies...

So to be certain I did it again the next day, and the same thing.. stopped off at a parking lot in town for about 15 mins. When I asked her about her day, she skipped right past that.

Now, I don't know who she is meeting with, but obviously she is hiding it from me, so I'm imagining it's either this new guy that she's chatting with, or more likely it's the original OM.

My plan now is to hire a PI to find out who it is, just so I have the facts, then to confront her and tell her she's moving out. It's obvious that there is little chance to reconcile until she hits rock bottom. Maybe having her out of the house during Christmas season will do that. What do I do if she refuses to leave? Do I move out? The attorney I have spoken with told me that, ideally, I should stay in the home. I'm not willing to get involved with an in-home separation.

At this point, I'm going to have to take my DB to the next level. I've been doing better with GAL, and will have to double down on the detachment phase. I'll admit I've let that slide since it appeared we were moving forward. It's just crazy that she can lie to me, her mom, her friends and her therapist with no reservations. I now clearly see what Sandi, Steve, and countless others said about being too eager to start the recovery process.

She has sworn on everything she holds dear that she was done lying to me. Obviously the girl I knew and loved is gone. There is no reason for me to hold on to that fantasy any longer. If someday she decides that she made the wrong choice and wants to talk, I'll listen to her. But I am no longer encouraged about saving my marriage. Going to re-read the DR book and add a few things to my GAL.

[Bern19]

Oh, and wife doesn't know that I'm on to her, so she is still acting all sweet and talking about christmas decorations and next years vacation. Even cuddling as we go to sleep each night. The last couple nights have been so hard to lay there while she talks about her day and holds my hand.

I know I've been told to stop trying to figure her out as nothing she does now can be seen logically, but my mind is truly blown. It appears she is willing to gamble 50% of her kids lives for this forbidden thrill.... what a shame.

[RyanHun]

Bern,
What are your plans with all this info. Why spend the money on a PI? You already know she's lying. Does it really matter why she's lying? You are letting her cake eat. I would be confronting her now about her lies. Cuddling at night time, telling her about her day and holding your hand, why are you putting yourself through this?