Bern thanks for posting that, as brutal as it was. I know all of us feel for you in having to have found out the way that you did.
However, I think your tale is a cautionary one for other LBS' that are tempted to confront the OP in their WAS's A. The truth is, as you've found out, is that the AP is not the problem. The R with your W is. Confronting the AP (and I did it in my W's first EA in 2005) is akin to putting a bandaid on the stump of a severed limb. You haven't really dealt with the problem in totality. And now you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering. Unfortunately, when we "ruin" a WAS's A (like so many of us want to do!) they will blame us for getting in the way of their happiness. Another anti-D expert that I've read and followed, terms it this way. "Do you really want to force your W to stay with you? The way you'd cage a wild animal? Or do you want her to come back of her own volition, wanting to be with you, and wanting to work on the MR?"
Who wants to be with someone that keeps wanting to get away? That is why confronting rarely works.
So Bern, are you doubling down on DB? Detach....GAL.....180s? That may be the only thing that saves your marriage.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
However, I think your tale is a cautionary one for other LBS' that are tempted to confront the OP in their WAS's A. The truth is, as you've found out, is that the AP is not the problem. The R with your W is. Confronting the AP (and I did it in my W's first EA in 2005) is akin to putting a bandaid on the stump of a severed limb. You haven't really dealt with the problem in totality. And now you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering. Unfortunately, when we "ruin" a WAS's A (like so many of us want to do!) they will blame us for getting in the way of their happiness. Another anti-D expert that I've read and followed, terms it this way. "Do you really want to force your W to stay with you? The way you'd cage a wild animal? Or do you want her to come back of her own volition, wanting to be with you, and wanting to work on the MR?"
Who wants to be with someone that keeps wanting to get away? That is why confronting rarely works.
That's exactly where I am right now. Although I want my marriage to survive, I'm not interested in some hollow arrangement where I'm always going to wonder where she is or who she's with. If she's not able or interested in working to rebuild trust, and then rebuilding our marriage, then I will have to let the MR go.
Originally Posted by Steve85
So Bern, are you doubling down on DB? Detach....GAL.....180s? That may be the only thing that saves your marriage.
yes, trying hard. Failing often.
Issues in the past were being dismissive of her, talking down to her & the kids, not taking care of my self, not helping around the house, etc. Basically a truly bad husband that thought that providing a high standard of living and spending some quality time with them was all it took to be a good dad/husband. I've spent way more time talking about and working on me in my IC sessions.
Detachment- (been my achilles heel so far) No- "But, I love you" Not initiating conversations Not pursuing, begging, pleading. Trying to give her the gift of my being absent
180's- Making sure I'm focused on her when she does speak, validating along the way. Focusing on not just what I say, but how I say it. Keeping busy at home, helping out with household chores, etc.
GAL- Spending time away from home with friends Joined a boxing gym
Me- 47 Her- 43
S-20 S-18 S-13 S11
Together 23 years Married 21 years
EA confirmed 11/13 EA "ended" 1/14 PA confirmed 10/18 Started MC 11/18
She's not sure she can trust me and that I'll just go back to my emotional abandonment and leave her vulnerable again.
Oh wow. Your poor wife, she's sooooo afraid she can't trust you again. The same woman who secretly engaged in a 2 year affair with a married man. Yeah. The things that come out of their mouths are just astounding sometimes. I wouldn't be too sympathetic to her pleas. Just work on detachment and getting out and GAL'ing and leave her to contemplate the mess she is making.
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We went to MC this weekend and it was clear she isn't ready to reconcile. She doesn't feel she's ready to talk about it, and really would rather not even have to. She even said that she just wants to close the book on this chapter of our life an move on. I know that without a major transformation in our MR, it will just be a matter of time before she is back with him or with the next co worker that takes a fancy to her.
Yes you are likely right about that. I would suggest dropping MC for now, it's clearly not having an impact on her and is probably just making things worse.
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In spite of it all, I still do love my wife and don't want to drag my family through a divorce if it can be avoided. But i'm also certain I'm not interested in just sweeping it under the rug and moving forward with my head down.
Good. Because ignoring it is only inviting it to happen again.
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So, I'll get back to GAL and living my life. As I prove that I can be OK independent of her, maybe she'll snap out of it and start to realize what she is going to lose.
Great plan! And if you do it right, at some point you'll quit worrying about her snapping out of it because you'll be too busy being awesome.
I've been working on my detachment, but had a setback last night. I was keeping busy outside with some yard work and then came in after dark and went to my room to start sorting through my dresser & closet. I've been on this journey of self-improvement for some time, long before I confirmed the WW's PA. So I needed to purge a mess of clothes that no longer fit due to my weight loss. The WW comes in and lays down in bed and just watches me. I asked her if she needed something and she said no. I asked her if she had a headache, and I thought she said no. So, I just kept on working. It was just a very odd vibe that I was getting. I've been pretty good in the past and just ignoring things and moving on with my business, but after a while it started getting to me, so I decided I'd go out to the living room and watch TV. After being out there for 15 or 20 mins, I couldn't get it out of my mind, so I went back in and just asked her. "what was up?" I told her about the weird vibe I was getting and she just looked at me and said she had a headache and just needed to lie down. I guess I was thinking she was wanting to talk, but didn't know how to start. Turns out she just needed to lie down. I felt so stupid. It's crazy how I can project what I want to be happening in a situation like that. Seems like I'll have some momentum and then I can't get out of my own way.
Me- 47 Her- 43
S-20 S-18 S-13 S11
Together 23 years Married 21 years
EA confirmed 11/13 EA "ended" 1/14 PA confirmed 10/18 Started MC 11/18
So, I'll get back to GAL and living my life. As I prove that I can be OK independent of her, maybe she'll snap out of it and start to realize what she is going to lose.
Sorry that you are going through this. A positive step is that you ended up in the right place.
If I may I would like to add my 2 cents worth.
- You mentioned in your first post that you had ordered the books. Have you received them? Did you read them? Do you understand the message they are trying to get across?
- If you have answered yes to the above question why buy more books?
- You mentioned you talked to a pastor about the matter and about infidelity. While I respect all religions and believe help can come from anywhere I seriously doubt that religion and the book you bought will be of use.
- I understand you read the rules? Do you understand them?
The reason for the above questions is that a lot of times I see people come here looking for answers to direct questions and situations but if they do not read and more importantly understand the books then it is all just words. Detaching, validating, GAL, moving on, boundaries, etc are not understood and therefore not correctly applied.
If you haven't, I seriously suggest you read and re-read the books until things make sense and click. I remember I had to take the book and go over points to read between the lines and then like a jigsaw everything began to fall into place. Obviously with help from the forum, a lot of help but consider the forum as a place to discuss battles and reading where you learn to plan a strategy. Battles end up wearing you down.
Reading your situation first point is I would not take the time between A (a) and A (b) as a period of calm. Just like a hurricane that is the eye and those are sometimes recharging periods before the WWS goes at it again. It reminds me when during a marriage after a period of nagging the S shuts up and the other S thinks things are ok when in fact it is the opposite. Here it is the same and your W is long gone.
To be honest I think you are still trying to save your M when one of the first things you should have learned by now is that the M you knew is gone. Furthermore you really don't want that one patched up as a long term investment for the future. You have to start from scratch.
The reason I say this and think it is important is that if you work on yourself for yourself and not looking through the corner of your eye to see if she notices the changes, in which case you are failing the whole point and working for her, you will start to notice her flaws, her disrespect towards you and you will then question if that is really the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with. You will make her earn every ounce of you whereas now you look like a garage sale on offer.
Another point to cut out is snooping.I understand that a lot of errors are textbook and we all do or did them but cut it out. I can understand investigating to prove a suspicion but there is a fine line between snooping and "making sure". It's not healthy for you and proves you really aren't moving on.
One word Sandi uses a lot is respect. Obviously your wife has no respect for you. Respect is not the only building block but it is an important one. Even if you both do not work it out you can always tell when a woman has respect for you and earning it in a way is representative of how you act as a man in general. Alpha males generate a lot so you need to up your game.
Sex ... we all like it, at least I do but it needs to be done with passion, romanticism or any other positive emotion that 2 people generate. As mentioned in the forum a lot of times, WWS and women in particular use it as a weapon or bargaining tool to obtain an objective. As a guidline I always remember the expression that men and women are "wired" differently. With regards to sex, men need sex to create a bond. Women need a bond to have sex. Obviously this is not always the case but I think it is pretty accurate and seems to be true. Would you say there is a bond strong enough to push her to have sex with you? But by playing you she is also making you create a false bond.
Rear view mirror. Stop doing things and judging how they affect your W and if she will notice any change. The idea is that you DO change. She messed up and is responsible for her actions but from what I have read you are guilty of your own crimes. If you do not look into the mirror and see who you are and change what needs to be changed you will fail now and in any other relationship you may have. I can tell you from experience that I became a better man, husband and father as a result.
Contacting the OM. I will never forget the words from Cadet. Forget the OM focus on your R, he is just a distraction. So true. An OM/OW or EA PA only steps in when there is a crack in your R. Focus on your R so that your WWS also wants a R and will take the necessary steps to shut out any "distractions". At the end of the day it is the WWS who has to take those steps. An OM is like a mosquito buzzing around waiting for an opportunity and it is up to your W to stop that from happening. No matter how many times you shoo them away they always come back. And if not the same one then a replacement. It is your W job to not be a target anymore.
Bedroom. Are you guys still sharing the MB?
Another point ... GAL and being attractive to your W is not really cleaning up. I can tell you from my own experience I did not have to clean dishes left right and centre nor leave the house spotless. What I did make sure is to clean up after and not leave the are dirty. Going out on guys night bowling or "safe" areas are ok but sometimes guys stay away from dangerous areas in case W gets a hump. What are dangerous areas? well imagine your W dresses up looks sexy and goes with friends partying and arrives in the morning at what ever time. How do you feel? Bet your imagination goes wild. You on the other nad go to a gym and come back in the evening and are tucked up by bedtime. Imagine now you start to meet new people, male and female and go out to different places and also come back late or dont but open up your social circle. Things change.
What I would not advise is as some do and start a R with someone new while still in no mans land with their WWS. First because they are not emotionally ready, it messes up with the DB and may hurt the other person. Secondly because it is generally vindictive and just another example of not really moving on. Acts of revenge are filled with emotion against someone, unless of course you are a Klingon, and just show you are living in the past.
Finally, once again, read and understand. Do not use this website as the answer for everything, try to work out things on your own and understand how everything is related and affects you. Do not be afraid to fall, sometimes for some it is the only way. Sometimes we need to learn the hard way before it sinks in. The good thing is that then it never leaves.
As my dad used to say, if you don't listen you must feel. That was before I got a wipping for doing some stupid sh1t.
There are a lot more things but I hope this can be of help and you get something out of it.
Finally, once again, read and understand. Do not use this website as the answer for everything, try to work out things on your own and understand how everything is related and affects you. Do not be afraid to fall, sometimes for some it is the only way. Sometimes we need to learn the hard way before it sinks in. The good thing is that then it never leaves.
This is so good. Goes along with the not just reading the books but understanding them. So many of the newbies here struggle because the see this as a "follow the directions" exercise. "Here is what happened....tell me what to do."
But understanding will give you the tools necessary to adapt the advice you get, no matter from which source, to your exact set of circumstances.
Reminds me of a girlfriend I had when I was a teenager. I was a terrible boyfriend. Routinely she would ask me "What are you doing Friday night?" My answer was usually "I don't know yet."
One night, some buddies of mine and I went to a go-kart track. Her best-friend was the bf of one of my buddies and through him they found out we were going to the go-kart track. She showed up there. I wasn't thrilled as this was supposed to be a guy's night out and suddenly she was there.
After we rode the go-karts she wanted to talk. During the talk she said "I hate when I ask what you are doing coming up and you tell me I don't know yet. It makes me feel like you don't want to make plans with me and are keeping your options open." She said a lot of other things, but when we were done we started walking towards the rest of the group and she says "So what are you doing tomorrow night." I said "I don't know yet." She threw a fit!
Now say that I decided I wanted to save my R with her, and I came here and said "She just texted me and asked what I was doing tomorrow night! What should I say?" And one of the responses proposed was "tell her you don't know yet."? Should I blindly follow that advice? Of course not, and understanding the principles involved with DBIng, TRULY understanding, will be a huge guide to you about what will or won't work in your own sitch.
Long winded way of saying how much I agree with Maximus on this point!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
- You mentioned in your first post that you had ordered the books. Have you received them? Did you read them? Do you understand the message they are trying to get across?
- If you have answered yes to the above question why buy more books?
Yes I have received them, I can say that I've not read them both, and probably did a poor job at comprehending what I did read. When I started this, I could feel her distancing herself from me, thus the title of my post referencing "pre-bomb drop". In the process of reading the book, I discovered the PA, and shifted gears to affair recovery per advice from the pastor. Enter Dr. Harley's book and MWD's Healing from an affair.
Originally Posted by Maximus
To be honest I think you are still trying to save your M when one of the first things you should have learned by now is that the M you knew is gone. Furthermore you really don't want that one patched up as a long term investment for the future. You have to start from scratch
This is the mindset I'm striving for.... has been extremely challenging for me so far..
Originally Posted by Maximus
Another point to cut out is snooping.I understand that a lot of errors are textbook and we all do or did them but cut it out. I can understand investigating to prove a suspicion but there is a fine line between snooping and "making sure". It's not healthy for you and proves you really aren't moving on.
I'll admit to struggling with this. I guess because she says there has been no contact w/ OM, yet they see each other every day at work. I have been doing much better though. The first two weeks I was a mess and was trying to keep tabs on her. I think the fact that he cut off contact with her makes me think about what would happen if he changed his mind and wanted my WS instead of his BS.
Originally Posted by Maximus
Sex ... we all like it, at least I do but it needs to be done with passion, romanticism or any other positive emotion that 2 people generate. As mentioned in the forum a lot of times, WWS and women in particular use it as a weapon or bargaining tool to obtain an objective. As a guideline I always remember the expression that men and women are "wired" differently. With regards to sex, men need sex to create a bond. Women need a bond to have sex. Obviously this is not always the case but I think it is pretty accurate and seems to be true. Would you say there is a bond strong enough to push her to have sex with you? But by playing you she is also making you create a false bond.
Bedroom. Are you guys still sharing the MB?
Obviously I'm no longer initiating, but if she does? Do I decline? That would be a huge 180 for me... She's never been one to initiate often..
Yes, she spent the first couple nights out of the MB, but has been back for about a month now.
Originally Posted by Maximus
Finally, once again, read and understand. Do not use this website as the answer for everything, try to work out things on your own and understand how everything is related and affects you. Do not be afraid to fall, sometimes for some it is the only way. Sometimes we need to learn the hard way before it sinks in. The good thing is that then it never leaves.
I will focus on reading to comprehend instead of skimming over the material trying to find what I think applies to me. I'm realizing i've missed several nuggets of wisdom in my haste to burn through the material. Should I put away MWD's Healing from Infidelity for now? I'm thinking yes?
Me- 47 Her- 43
S-20 S-18 S-13 S11
Together 23 years Married 21 years
EA confirmed 11/13 EA "ended" 1/14 PA confirmed 10/18 Started MC 11/18
This is so good. Goes along with the not just reading the books but understanding them. So many of the newbies here struggle because the see this as a "follow the directions" exercise. "Here is what happened....tell me what to do."
I'll be honest, I'm so emotionally and mentally drained from this process that it'd be nice to be able to follow directions at times.
This is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in my life, by far....
Me- 47 Her- 43
S-20 S-18 S-13 S11
Together 23 years Married 21 years
EA confirmed 11/13 EA "ended" 1/14 PA confirmed 10/18 Started MC 11/18
